Dungeon Legend - Mac/PC
polycounter lvl 14
Some of you may or may not remember "Dungeon Legend". Well for those who don't know... Dungeon Legend is a dungeon crawler/rpg for Mac/Win.
Development took a nose dive into the land of "Slow to Dead" there for a while, but it's back and stronger than ever. We've hired a never programmer and he is great to work with.
We actually had to ditch all of the past programming and start from scratch. I think it was the best thing that could have happened for Dungeon Legend. Another change, we have switched development to Mac/PC. This allows for less restriction in development and will bring DL to a wider audience. This dungeon crawler is definitely suited for a larger screen.
Our goal is to complete development in 4 to 6 months. This is not etched in stone, but with our new programmer we are able to set goals and meet them (for the most part so far).
Please visit our Youtube Channel for developer videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/3DATTACKUS?feature=mhum
Thanks for checking us out!
Thomas P.
Development took a nose dive into the land of "Slow to Dead" there for a while, but it's back and stronger than ever. We've hired a never programmer and he is great to work with.
We actually had to ditch all of the past programming and start from scratch. I think it was the best thing that could have happened for Dungeon Legend. Another change, we have switched development to Mac/PC. This allows for less restriction in development and will bring DL to a wider audience. This dungeon crawler is definitely suited for a larger screen.
Our goal is to complete development in 4 to 6 months. This is not etched in stone, but with our new programmer we are able to set goals and meet them (for the most part so far).
Please visit our Youtube Channel for developer videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/3DATTACKUS?feature=mhum
Thanks for checking us out!
Thomas P.
Replies
What is sluggish about it? It is turn based which naturally is slower paced than your hack'n'slash RPG. What do you find "unintuitive" about it?
please dont take offence from this post as I can pretty much imagine your reply already. I think the game looks really good and it could be quite popular. I hope you take on board peoples impression of the game rather than dismissing them entirely and continuing to defend the current gameplay.
good luck!
Exactly, animation or action speeds have nothing to do with the gameplay, it'll just serve as padding time that will be a big turn off.
Have fast and describing animations, have the monster move quickly during its turn, have it do the two attacks in close combination.
No one wants to see something happen and then see an additional 2/3 of that animation just be filler.
The player is the one who should decide how long they want to drag the turn out before they perform an action, not the action itself.
I am not trying to defend the mechanics but it would really help if people could make suggestions or be more precise about what actually is the "slow" part. Just saying it feels slow or sluggish doesn't help me much.
Thomas P.
what you should add is a Slider to Speed up or Slow down the game at will.
Looks neat though!
It's okay if a turn takes a bit of time, but you should be setting rules on how long they should take, and try to follow those, and if needed, like in this case, make them as short as possible.
But when people say that the animations are sluggish they mean exactly that, they need to be quicker in movements, now it is more like someone trying to act out in slowmotion.
As an example, if you had the monster and player already be in a combat stance where the weapon is ready to strike, the action could be made far shorter.
Animations for attacks, both monster and hero: They are very slow and not very dynamic. It is hard to see a rat being a formidable opponent with a single attack like that. One there needs to be a greater diversity in attack structure. Have the rat use its tail to attack. The animations need to have a clear action line. You are working with a small window of view so it wouldn't hurt to over emphasize some of these motions. Second these actions need to be sped up. They don't have to be blazing fast but you still have to think about a fantasy game in a real world sense when it comes to combat. If a character or creature takes to long with its attack then the game mechanic should be able to block or move out of the way with little effort just like a real world battle. By speeding up the attack and making it more dynamic my brain as a gamer has an easier time believing my character is in real danger. The same idea goes to your hero. The hero can't seem heroic if it looks like they have never held a sword before.
From the video I am unsure about other game mechanics but I would like for the character to be able to move around with a wasd setup as well as the mouse. Most of us use wireless mice in this computer age and a system that relies only on mouse input for movement can quickly kill batteries in a mouse.
From what I have seen of the environments they look great but the character and rat seem a bit out of place. I understand the need to change the palate and style to differentiate them from the background but currently they just don't belong. That one is entirely a personal taste issue so you can take it or leave it.
I would however listen to the above critique everyone has been giving you about the pace. Turn based combat is fine but it still has to feel like combat and not a badly choreographer fight scene.
We can't please everybody that's for sure but we will try to tweak what we have. Keep in mind however that fighting is not all you do in Dungeon Legend.
Thanks for all the great comments and critique guys!
Thomas P.
if it's a niche thing and you're not trying to appeal to a mass market (there are games that target small groups because of the lack of competition)... then devise a focus group comprised of those people (composed or comprised... ehh who can be sure)...
There are plenty of slow games that don't feel slow because the people playing it are having fun... that's what you should take from this... if the game is being called "slow" or "slugish"... these things being negative feedback... then there's probabaly something sticking out to the players as bad that makes the game feel slow and slugish... in other words "boring"
The animation thing will help, and the art already helps with that... but you have to distract your player/user... they can't just be waiting for an animation to end... there should be a reason why they are waiting, otherwise, they lose interest.. even if slow is what you intended.
i didn't even have to watch the combat to know what was going on in the thing. but i was able to look very closely at the art... another downside to having a slow combat system, or a combat system that players otherwise aren't forced to pay attention to. This is a downside because people will be able to screw-tenize your game/art very closely...
there's something in the feedback you've recieved that you should consider... look at the message and worry less about what your intentions are.
I could drive a car off a bridge intending for it to crash and expload... but when it finally does crash and burn, that's when i'd realize it was a bad decision.
get together a group of people to focus test this thing and get their feedback... if 10 out of 10 people say it's too slow... then you probably need to change the thing about it that feels too slow...
this focus group should be people from your target demographic...
Looks good though... good job so far. This is the fun part! making it fun! woo!
good luck
Well as said before we already tweaked a few things in regards to pause/timing/animations. There is probably still some room but we will get back to that later. In about 2 months we will do some closed beta testing so everyone interested can/should contact me.
Thomas P.
I do have a suggestion about the animations as well. The combat seems off because the character keeps recovering to a neutral pose after each attack, he should drop into a an attacking stance when entering combat mode.
Maybe add a couple of in-between-attack animations like enemies snarling at the PC, and/or the PC banging his weapon against his shield and taunting, or twirling his weapon around. Subtle details like that will definitely add to the atmosphere.
Also, if you want to make the combat more dynamic, you can make some dodge animations as well, and maybe a chance to execute a counterattack after blocking or dodging based on the character's stats/skills VS the enemy.
People that are enchanted by graphics and ambiance (which you've pulled off nicely), just want to play the game without a slow, excessive amount of visible statistics (initiative thing). A game can be real time, and insanely tactical. I'm working on a game myself that is doing its best to meld the complex strategies of chess, with the twitch based combat and cue reading of games like mike tyson's punch out.
You've put a lot of time into the game's presentation for what is essentially a niche market. I think it could end up being a waste of your time if you don't make some radical changes to the gameplay. This could be done by limiting the time players have to make their turn decisions (variable with difficulty) increasing animation speed, reducing the turns to 1 move per turn, or making it so that some abilities use 1 turn, and others require more than one. Also, if you claim the game is tactical, add some tactics, attacking until the player loses health and then casting a heal spell isnt exactly tactical or interesting, at all.
Another big problem I have with this game is you preach its tactical nature, and yet you're still only fighting a rat. Its a fucking rat, stomp it, its over. If you want interesting tactics and battles that last several minutes it should at least be from something that looks menacing, or at least more powerful than the player. What the fuck kind of strategies does a giant rat employ when fighting you? Bite bite bite bite bite, that hurt, run away -rat brain.
But maybe you already had a plan for all these little problems I've been mentioning, if so, sorry, your game not mine. If not, well, you're welcome.
Animation wise, the player character looks really rigid in your game, and that alone is subtracting from the ambiance of the battle. Focus on a battle stance that moves semi-rhythmically with small intricacies such as hand movement and leg shifting. If you have ever done a sport like fencing or kendo (I've done the later) you'd know that the smallest of leg positions and movement can make the biggest difference in battle. Small things like that will make your game far more interesting. Overall, while many of the animations are pretty decent, I think that smaller intricacies will ultimately make your game more colorful. It's like when you think of music, all that really matters is the highest and lowest note of the composition and everything in between is just "color" being added to the tone. Even though you could have just the high and the low notes and the song would be recognizable, the color adds so much flavor and mood to the piece that removing it would be a major mistake. I feel that small intricacies in the player animation fit a similar category, they aren't necessary but they certainly increase the ambiance.
Also, you can have turn based with faster pace as well, it all depends on the animations. Depending on your demographic, I would adjust the speed to your liking. I'd almost say that for a more casual audience, a faster pace but simpler mechanic would be best because many casual players may get bored with the classic turn based style RPGs. Though from experience, games with battle systems with slow animations are generally a frustration amongst most Turn Based RPG players since it generally means that the task you wish to complete takes far longer than player intention. I would look into smoothing out the experience so that casual players and the niche market both find interest in the product.
On another note, I'm not a huge fan of the narration of the events as the game proceeds because it essentially states something that could easily be shown in context of the game... However, I am aware that it is probably a style choice. As long as the other issues are addressed, I think that could easily slide in terms of concerns for the game.
Keep in mind that while you may not like everything you hear, it's important to read feedback regardless of if you plan or don't plan to implement the changes. I understand that ideas may contradict with the game design ideas in mind, but it's important for developers / designers to get peer review and market research done in order for the game to be as marketable as possible while still being the game that the developers intended it to be. Too often do I see developers trying to encapsulate themselves into their own isolated ideas and never branch out and try things that may not have been apart of the original game plan. In the end, if the change doesn't work, remove it, and it's probably for the best. Even when you meet the criteria of user submitted ideas, the game could still be disliked by same said users because the user often times might have a contradicting game idea that will break the pace of the game, but it's still worth trying it in order to provide fans with a game that meets their expectations.
Hope that helps and is legible regardless of my lack-of-sleep.
http://www.dungeonlegend.com
We will be posting updates on our blog.
Thomas P.