To the $10/hour dude: Not sure I understand why you'd take low paying jobs for gaining experience?
If you want to make great art for your portfolio just make stuff you're excited about. Don't make that random dumpster, barrel, or ten hairstyles that a client will most likely want. Future employers won't be impressed by a random client list. (especially clients who pay $10) Maybe WETA on resume holds some value, but they wouldn't be playing a $10 game. They want to see great art, that's it.
To the original topic, I recommend doing a per object contract. Clients have always appreciated it as prices don't balloon out of control, and they're more comfortable in asking for minor tweaks. Comfortable clients are usually happy and repeat clients.
As for actual numbers, it's usually worked out to be between $45-100 per hour. I charge a premium when the time frame is tight or when the amount of work is small. If the project is fun, or there is a good body of work needed, I give them a better deal.
...I'm making $9 an hour right now doing tech support. And by tech support I mean picking up the phone, saying "Customer support this is Aaron", and then having to tell someone they bought a DVD, but that their computer only has a CD drive.
...I'd sooner chop off one of my feet than do an art job for $9 an hour. If you're fine with shit wages, at least do it at a normal day job where you can count on there being more of those shit wages the next day.
I've no experience with this, but might there be times where you don't have any work at all? So wouldn't you need to plan for when business is slow? Freelance scares the shit out of me. No stability and such.
I've no experience with this, but might there be times where you don't have any work at all? So wouldn't you need to plan for when business is slow? Freelance scares the shit out of me. No stability and such.
I always tried to have two jobs going at any one time, and staggered the deadlines
...I'd sooner chop off one of my feet than do an art job for $9 an hour. If you're fine with shit wages, at least do it at a normal day job where you can count on there being more of those shit wages the next day.
While I don't agree with the $10/hour thing, this mentality of rather doing an actual shit job that you despise instead of doing something you love makes no sense to me.
$10/hour enjoying the time making art sounds a lot more preferable against $10/hour doing any menial job that makes you want to rip your own face off.
Clearly anyone who can do it for $10/hour isn't doing it for job stability and they are doing it mainly for "the experience", just like the guy said himself many times.
He still does deserve to be grilled of course and everyone's comments have been really helpful in opening the eyes of all other noob freelancers out there.
Sorry if the experienced guys feel like it's a waste of time "feeding the trolls", but it has been a highly productive thread in my opinion and you guys get my thanks for participating (including master-mune!)
Also more thanks for all the people who actually threw out numbers.
I especially like "breakdown" posts like JacqueChoi did, something about random statistic spam makes me especially interested
Hold the phone, you guys actually charge your clients ?! Cmon your sposed to be doing this stuff out of the kindness of your huge art loving hearts!!!!!
Pay your bills with love! <-- Stop and think about that for a sec.
Meanwhile: Back in the real world $35 is an absolute rock bottom minimum, $50 - $75 is a decent median figure, but working out an agreeable daily rate is the way to go.
Of course, if your a fresh student, with a struggling to average looking folio - I guess your going to take whatever you can get.
"because you love it" is the lowest, most vile, despicable and dishonest brainwashing spiel that management puts artists through to get them to accept crappy conditions.
Since when was working all day doing LODs and revisions and bushes and benches and fixing broken India-outsourced assets and dealing with a fool art director and office politics and deadlines and overtime and bugs and crappy tools and inefficient workflows and inept management so much fun?
It's a job, and the opposite of what you suggest is true: The less you get paid, the less you will enjoy your job. Anyone with decent standards and self-respect does not get paid $9/hour and love their job. When you are highly skilled and get paid a lot, that is also when you enjoy yourself more as you are in a position to pick your tasks.
I agree with Two Listen. His "crappy job" has predictable income and he gets to look forward to coming home and doing art. Most of the best artists out there learned in their own spare time, not doing a low-wage job. A low-wage job will most likely teach you inefficient routines, condition you to work at low quality, kill your passion and make you loathe the industry.
On the flip side of the rate debate, some guys here quote silly high numbers which isn't going to get them anywhere in the long run considering there are far more talented freelancers working at more respectable rates. Again, the real freelance money comes through being efficient. That requires you to manage your time well, which is generally a great challenge to artist-types, but it can be pulled off. Charge per-asset, normal rate, normal schedule, then simply don't sit mucking about doodling in zbrush or photoshop for days but get one task done then immediately move on to the next, make sure you know your 3d software through and through, install every single time-saving extension (scripts/plugins/etc) you can, and do not enjoy working on an asset; enjoy finishing it and starting on another one.
Say instead of silly high rates, you are a solid artist and you charge $200/day. Because of your skill level and your decent rate you get, on average, fulltime freelance work. But what you do is increase your efficiency so you can churn out assets in 60% of the time (remember, you have the whole workday to do art, as opposed to doing meetings and chatting over the watercooler, just avoid youtube and noodling and you're fine). So you're actually making 333/day *21 days is $7000. $250 rate at 200% efficiency would be $10500. It's through efficiency you'll make money as you'll get more work because of your attractive rate and you'll get great profits out of finishing ahead of time.
BLAMMMO. This text deserves to be in the thread twice so I'm quotin it.
Since when was working all day doing LODs and revisions and bushes and benches and fixing broken India-outsourced assets and dealing with a fool art director and office politics and deadlines and overtime and bugs and crappy tools and inefficient workflows and inept management so much fun?
I take it you haven't worked at Wal-Mart. What you described beats the shit out of working with meth heads, alcoholics, wife-beaters and slack-jawed morons, standing on your feet all day, getting called in at 4am, then dealing with idiot asshole customers trying to scam you-- all while earning less than $9/hr.
Self-respect isn't going to pay your bills either. Sometimes you have to take whatever job you can get.
Not only that, there's a difference between taking any job you can get and just being desperate. I've taken some jobs that weren't exactly amazing or portfolio worthy to fill in some gaps, or just to have something to do, but I still wouldn't charge that rate. A price like that is what gets tossed my way by a guy who either has no fucking clue what he's talking about and - therefore - the project will never see the light of day or by a guy who has no respect or understanding of artist's and their trade (or both, I guess, if you're really lucky.) That shitty Wal-Mart job (though, there's nothing wrong with Wal-Mart, it just happens to be the chain you picked out...) will always be there, it pays horribly but you come in, you work, you clock out and you have your own time to do whatever you want - drink your woes away, pillow fights, work on your own stuff, etc. At a rate like that, the absolutely insane one being quoted in this thread, you're basically working yourself into debt. At that rate there is no way you can pay for your cost of living AND overhead of being a business. I think it's a pretty slippery slope if you're willing to sell your skills so low, it's only going to damage what you have to offer. Now, your time is being consumed by making LODS or shitty assets at a crazy low price, probably for a client nobody knows, for a game no one will ever see. You can't add it to your folio, if it's even 'worth it', you might not even be able to mention it...I dunno, that kind of mentality of 'do what you love' is just more fuel for clueless business owners to exploit talents to artists.
this is one big problem i saw in this thread numbers which take it a person who work in a gaz station !!!!
their is always a min and maximum i mean if the guy who work on gaz station take 15$ per hour dose artist are going to take the same !!!!
the problem that pepole who don't know anything and they just need money and give this funny numbers 100$ a day come this is less than double minimum and sorry what taxes u spoke about the client who came to you always didn't want to go for a company cause he don't want this taxes so why u should care about this god damn taxes while he didn't care cause he know if he went to company he are going to pay tons of money while he know that he can give u small rate so we should stop this i mean their is a price for everything if he going to pay 100000 euro to a company so when u ask 10000 for the whole project so this is fair to him and to you
u buy dvds programs and other stuff more than 20000$ a year and then u ask 10 per hour
thin u khow how much he is going to pay for a company and ask 10 prat from that number and it will be the minimum
also this problem came even to the companies as when a client come to a company he was on 3 before and asked about their rate
this is some new problem that small companies began to use this system and ask small monies cause the owner need some money to go to have fun or buy new car the art shouldn't be mixed with bussiness why god damn a bussniess man want to open cg studio ?
also ofcourse their is a good clients which look to the talent and they fair but how much they are a very small in this field
this is one big problem i saw in this thread numbers which take it a person who work in a gaz station !!!!
their is always a min and maximum i mean if the guy who work on gaz station take 15$ per hour dose artist are going to take the same !!!!
the problem that pepole who don't know anything and they just need money and give this funny numbers 100$ a day come this is less than double minimum and sorry what taxes u spoke about the client who came to you always didn't want to go for a company cause he don't want this taxes so why u should care about this god damn taxes while he didn't care cause he know if he went to company he are going to pay tons of money while he know that he can give u small rate so we should stop this i mean their is a price for everything if he going to pay 100000 euro to a company so when u ask 10000 for the whole project so this is fair to him and to you
u buy dvds programs and other stuff more than 20000$ a year and then u ask 10 per hour
thin u khow how much he is going to pay for a company and ask 10 prat from that number and it will be the minimum
also this problem came even to the companies as when a client come to a company he was on 3 before and asked about their rate
this is some new problem that small companies began to use this system and ask small monies cause the owner need some money to go to have fun or buy new car the art shouldn't be mixed with bussiness why god damn a bussniess man want to open cg studio ?
also ofcourse their is a good clients which look to the talent and they fair but how much they are a very small in this field
wow man, i know my texts are sometimes hard to follow/understand, but wow
could you put a few
.
and
,
and paragraphs in it? its super hard to read and understand
Since when was working all day doing LODs and revisions and bushes and benches and fixing broken India-outsourced assets and dealing with a fool art director and office politics and deadlines and overtime and bugs and crappy tools and inefficient workflows and inept management so much fun?
I agree with Two Listen. His "crappy job" has predictable income and he gets to look forward to coming home and doing art. Most of the best artists out there learned in their own spare time, not doing a low-wage job. A low-wage job will most likely teach you inefficient routines, condition you to work at low quality, kill your passion and make you loathe the industry.
Yeah, perna summed up what I meant really well. (Thanks!)
I would rather go to my $9 an hour day job - like I am right at this moment, knowing that that $9 an hour my wife and I really need right now will keep on coming consistently.
I don't have that security working freelance, especially as someone with next to no experience. I haven't got many connections, and while I'm probably decent enough for entry level freelance stuff I still have a lot to learn and don't have potential clients lined up outside my door. Which also means the few, inconsistent clients I might have probably aren't going to be offering me dream projects. In fact, it will probably reduce my art making to along the same lines as my tech support job - getting it done for the sake of the paycheck. Except in that case, I might be so burnt out on art to not want to even work on my own stuff later in the evening.
And so if I have to choose between getting into a routine of doing annoying artwork, for an unsteady flow of clients, spending all of my free time networking and marketing myself just to GET those few clients, all the while gaining a reputation as "That guy who will draw you shit for $9 an hour"...
And simply going to my tech job for a consistent $9 an hour that lets me paint and improve as I please on the side...
Sorry, no contest. I'll just keep doing this, and when I've got my shit together and I know what I can do how fast, then I'll start working a day or two less tech support - and start easing into freelance work alongside it at reasonable, more worthwhile rates.
This is another amazing thread, this is something I think about a lot being that I might be headed the freelance direction soon. You guys all share the same beliefs as I do, I have seen a few people waste their time and "do it for the experience" it's something that's actually encouraged at my school, work for free it's great for everyone involved!
Thanks a lot for you guys straight up telling us what you have charged, I hope everyone reads this, some people just don't get it. I hope someday people wise up and stop spreading that "for the experience/exposure" thought process to young artists. It travels many forms of art.
Can this be the official freelance bitching thread?
I just got off the phone with a potential client who kept using the word "collaborate". If that isn't a red flag to you, I think it should be. In my experience it means, "We get to work together and isn't that so nice and by the way I have no money." I feel like punching through a wall or something. Why do people assume that artists just sit around waiting for people with ideas to tell them what to do? I have so many personal projects on the backburner right now, it isn't even funny.
If you're confident in yourself and your ideas and your feedback process (aka you have people you trust to give you honest, quality critiques), you might as well work for yourself for free. Screw $10/hour to work for assholes.
@Jipe works for me.
Wish this thread were around months ago.
I'm on 2 mod teams currently, both are actually pretty promising titles and have some very talented people working for peanuts on them and fit completely in the "do what you love!" category. Either one could be big and bring in lots of money and i doubt I'd see much of any of it. Only 1 currently pays, and not very well. Sometimes I wish I were working down the street at a burger joint, the lack of freedom that comes with working on something that's not yours combined with not being paid is WILL wear on you and possibly suck away some of the passion it takes to break into this industry. Both projects are far enough along I figure I'll see them through, but once these ship or fall apart I'm over it, "working on what you love" loses its luster when you aren't appreciated fiscally.
"working on what you love" loses its luster when you aren't appreciated fiscally.
But if this thread was around before you joined the projects, would it really have affected your decision to join them?
I think this is one thing you actually have to try to really know, the majority of fresh graduates who are actively seeking a job has the kind of mentality that they can't possibly get bored of doing art, ever. Even when there a bunch of experienced people who say otherwise... you just think, "well, I'm not going to be like that".
I used to think exactly like that. Almost 2 years later I can safely say yes I can get very bored of doing art and I can even imagine changing careers, whereas that thought was unimaginable when I graduated.
By the way this has nothing to do with low pay, just talking about the love of doing art can slowly fade and it's not always that fun.
I think we all have weeks and moths where we don't want to do art yozora, I try to mix it up with game design, the right mix of the two and it never gets old, but from my experience I can attest studios aren't looking for that.
Replies
If you want to make great art for your portfolio just make stuff you're excited about. Don't make that random dumpster, barrel, or ten hairstyles that a client will most likely want. Future employers won't be impressed by a random client list. (especially clients who pay $10) Maybe WETA on resume holds some value, but they wouldn't be playing a $10 game. They want to see great art, that's it.
To the original topic, I recommend doing a per object contract. Clients have always appreciated it as prices don't balloon out of control, and they're more comfortable in asking for minor tweaks. Comfortable clients are usually happy and repeat clients.
As for actual numbers, it's usually worked out to be between $45-100 per hour. I charge a premium when the time frame is tight or when the amount of work is small. If the project is fun, or there is a good body of work needed, I give them a better deal.
...I'd sooner chop off one of my feet than do an art job for $9 an hour. If you're fine with shit wages, at least do it at a normal day job where you can count on there being more of those shit wages the next day.
I always tried to have two jobs going at any one time, and staggered the deadlines
While I don't agree with the $10/hour thing, this mentality of rather doing an actual shit job that you despise instead of doing something you love makes no sense to me.
$10/hour enjoying the time making art sounds a lot more preferable against $10/hour doing any menial job that makes you want to rip your own face off.
Clearly anyone who can do it for $10/hour isn't doing it for job stability and they are doing it mainly for "the experience", just like the guy said himself many times.
He still does deserve to be grilled of course and everyone's comments have been really helpful in opening the eyes of all other noob freelancers out there.
Sorry if the experienced guys feel like it's a waste of time "feeding the trolls", but it has been a highly productive thread in my opinion and you guys get my thanks for participating
Also more thanks for all the people who actually threw out numbers.
I especially like "breakdown" posts like JacqueChoi did, something about random statistic spam makes me especially interested
Pay your bills with love! <-- Stop and think about that for a sec.
Meanwhile: Back in the real world $35 is an absolute rock bottom minimum, $50 - $75 is a decent median figure, but working out an agreeable daily rate is the way to go.
Of course, if your a fresh student, with a struggling to average looking folio - I guess your going to take whatever you can get.
BLAMMMO. This text deserves to be in the thread twice so I'm quotin it.
I take it you haven't worked at Wal-Mart. What you described beats the shit out of working with meth heads, alcoholics, wife-beaters and slack-jawed morons, standing on your feet all day, getting called in at 4am, then dealing with idiot asshole customers trying to scam you-- all while earning less than $9/hr.
Self-respect isn't going to pay your bills either. Sometimes you have to take whatever job you can get.
their is always a min and maximum i mean if the guy who work on gaz station take 15$ per hour dose artist are going to take the same !!!!
the problem that pepole who don't know anything and they just need money and give this funny numbers 100$ a day come this is less than double minimum and sorry what taxes u spoke about the client who came to you always didn't want to go for a company cause he don't want this taxes so why u should care about this god damn taxes while he didn't care cause he know if he went to company he are going to pay tons of money while he know that he can give u small rate so we should stop this i mean their is a price for everything if he going to pay 100000 euro to a company so when u ask 10000 for the whole project so this is fair to him and to you
u buy dvds programs and other stuff more than 20000$ a year and then u ask 10 per hour
thin u khow how much he is going to pay for a company and ask 10 prat from that number and it will be the minimum
also this problem came even to the companies as when a client come to a company he was on 3 before and asked about their rate
this is some new problem that small companies began to use this system and ask small monies cause the owner need some money to go to have fun or buy new car the art shouldn't be mixed with bussiness why god damn a bussniess man want to open cg studio ?
also ofcourse their is a good clients which look to the talent and they fair but how much they are a very small in this field
wow man, i know my texts are sometimes hard to follow/understand, but wow
could you put a few
.
and
,
and paragraphs in it? its super hard to read and understand
!!!
Yeah, perna summed up what I meant really well. (Thanks!)
I would rather go to my $9 an hour day job - like I am right at this moment, knowing that that $9 an hour my wife and I really need right now will keep on coming consistently.
I don't have that security working freelance, especially as someone with next to no experience. I haven't got many connections, and while I'm probably decent enough for entry level freelance stuff I still have a lot to learn and don't have potential clients lined up outside my door. Which also means the few, inconsistent clients I might have probably aren't going to be offering me dream projects. In fact, it will probably reduce my art making to along the same lines as my tech support job - getting it done for the sake of the paycheck. Except in that case, I might be so burnt out on art to not want to even work on my own stuff later in the evening.
And so if I have to choose between getting into a routine of doing annoying artwork, for an unsteady flow of clients, spending all of my free time networking and marketing myself just to GET those few clients, all the while gaining a reputation as "That guy who will draw you shit for $9 an hour"...
And simply going to my tech job for a consistent $9 an hour that lets me paint and improve as I please on the side...
Sorry, no contest. I'll just keep doing this, and when I've got my shit together and I know what I can do how fast, then I'll start working a day or two less tech support - and start easing into freelance work alongside it at reasonable, more worthwhile rates.
Thanks a lot for you guys straight up telling us what you have charged, I hope everyone reads this, some people just don't get it. I hope someday people wise up and stop spreading that "for the experience/exposure" thought process to young artists. It travels many forms of art.
I love Polycount! we should get along well.
I just got off the phone with a potential client who kept using the word "collaborate". If that isn't a red flag to you, I think it should be. In my experience it means, "We get to work together and isn't that so nice and by the way I have no money." I feel like punching through a wall or something. Why do people assume that artists just sit around waiting for people with ideas to tell them what to do? I have so many personal projects on the backburner right now, it isn't even funny.
If you're confident in yourself and your ideas and your feedback process (aka you have people you trust to give you honest, quality critiques), you might as well work for yourself for free. Screw $10/hour to work for assholes.
Wish this thread were around months ago.
I'm on 2 mod teams currently, both are actually pretty promising titles and have some very talented people working for peanuts on them and fit completely in the "do what you love!" category. Either one could be big and bring in lots of money and i doubt I'd see much of any of it. Only 1 currently pays, and not very well. Sometimes I wish I were working down the street at a burger joint, the lack of freedom that comes with working on something that's not yours combined with not being paid is WILL wear on you and possibly suck away some of the passion it takes to break into this industry. Both projects are far enough along I figure I'll see them through, but once these ship or fall apart I'm over it, "working on what you love" loses its luster when you aren't appreciated fiscally.
But if this thread was around before you joined the projects, would it really have affected your decision to join them?
I think this is one thing you actually have to try to really know, the majority of fresh graduates who are actively seeking a job has the kind of mentality that they can't possibly get bored of doing art, ever. Even when there a bunch of experienced people who say otherwise... you just think, "well, I'm not going to be like that".
I used to think exactly like that. Almost 2 years later I can safely say yes I can get very bored of doing art and I can even imagine changing careers, whereas that thought was unimaginable when I graduated.
By the way this has nothing to do with low pay, just talking about the love of doing art can slowly fade and it's not always that fun.