Freelance and Money
polycounter lvl 6
Hey, I would love to know How much money would you ask for a 3D character model for an Iphone game as a freelance....
would you ask as much as an PS3 XBOX360 model?
would you go a per hour tarif or per finished model?
tanks
would you ask as much as an PS3 XBOX360 model?
would you go a per hour tarif or per finished model?
tanks
Replies
so a pretty simple formula for figuring out freelance is
how much per hour you are worth * the number of hours it will take you to complete the model, and set forth parameters in the contract on how many revisions you will accept, otherwise they will have you revising until the end of time, on your time, for free.
Also I'm sure there are plenty of threads on this already...
Some people survive off of freelance but that comes from usually bigger companies with higher pay rolls; the average boss looking to hire freelance artists don't have a ton of money.
And with no real 'job' experience in the industry, you can't really charge them an arm and a leg, because you have no idea 'what you're worth'.
Freelance should be more about the opportunities and personal growth, then it is how much money you're getting.
Sure you don't want to be paid pennies for your work, but at the same time maybe that's all the project can afford.
a 3d character for an iphone is going to be, probably very low poly.
I have done low poly freelance before, and didn't charge more then 9-10$ an hour. Why? because in all honesty, I had no idea what i was 'worth'.
9-10$ an hour is usually a 'fair' rate, but at the same time it could be way too expensive for the company hiring you. Best to find out what their budget is like and see if you can work for them without giving the work to them for free.
Remember, it's about creating a name for yourself and gaining experience needed to get into most studios. In the end, you'd probably be doing a similar project on your own for your portfolio anyways.
Over time, as you get better, you work with more people, and your credibility goes up; so does your pay start reflecting real amounts.
I'm currently doing freelance as an environment artist, and the amount i'm getting is no where near 'livable'. However! I'm not looking at it as a money thing, i'm looking at it as a 'i'm getting some money to practically make something for my portfolio or demo reel'.
But right now i need the experience so it depends really, what this freelance project with you will be reflecting. If you need the money, you may be in the wrong industry
i would say for a low poly character, we need more info. Are you designing it, sketching it, rigging it, etc or are u just modeling it?
Props for embracing that sort of attitude, at least, in case with your employers
at some point they'll probably end up paying you with tim hortons meals or something
According to the Gamasutra salary survey, "decent" artists get about half of that. You don't mean the Dubai Police, do you (they are hiring again I think, btw)? :poly121:
ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! No matter where you are or what you are doing 9-10 dollars an hour is NOT a fair wage.
Like others have said. You are not only fucking yourself but others in our industry as well. Jesus Christ on a stick this is insanity. You know this is what started happening to guys in graphic design. Younger guys like you with little to no qualifications started spamming the freelance areas with these super low wages and now you know what? It is expected for people to work for these cheap ass prices.
Seriously. I can't believe you have this type of attitude. No experience or not you can not be working professionally for 10 bucks an hour.
Don't use the if you need the money you might be in the wrong industry. If you are working in this industry it is a job, a job that pays bills and supports people and their families. Don't act like everyone has a mommy and daddy or a trust fund to live off.
Plus I would love to see the "QUALITY" work you are creating for 9-10 bucks an hour.
What the flying hell are you talking about? Decent artists get half of what? 20 grand a year? So a decent artist only makes 10 grand a year?
Where the fuck are you people from?
~ SHOW ME THIS SALARY SURVEY AT ONCE.
I can tell you sometimes I get 6-8$ an hour for 3d scanning and processing. My main client said they are not happy and that the are considering getting their own equipment next year (will be cheaper for them I suppose). And aside paying for bills I am repaying equipment that costs as mush as a luxury car. Some of us live at crappy places.
Edit: Dreamer, Gamasutra salary info at once coming right up (couldn't find a newer one):
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27938/2009_Game_Developer_Salary_Survey_Sees_US_Average_Dip_4_Percent.php
Everyone should charge $20.00 hourly all those lurking the minimum is 20 go lower and we will have to lynch mob you.
Thats around 6000$ a month.
Obviously, when you talk about salaries it's all so relative. There's a lot of other things that should be taken into consideration.
- Taxes
- City / Continent (this varies SO much)
- Cost of living
- Rent
- Food
Etc, etc. That's why this surveys are a bit misleading and should be a bit more clear. Still, it helps knowing it's from the US only.
Who is everyone? Everyone from around the world? Unlikely that this will happen.
Also Dollar? He is living in Canada, does that mean canadian or US dollars? It is just impossible to say "you should take at least this" its so highly dependent on the person and on its surroundings, his clients etc.
Heck i can't even say to someone in my city "you have to earn at least" because the personal costs can vary so much depending on where he lives, all one can say is that he has to calculate it through and find out what he needs to live - if someone says 9-10 $ is fair and a second laters says that he cannot live from it, dammit you#ve done your math totally wrong dude you should stop doing freelance you are only hurting yourself and other freelancers with those rates!
But if you live in the middle of nowwhere in any former soviet state, i bet 10$ an hour is a hell lot of money and quite a good rate.
And then you deduct all the cost of living in whichever city you're in and see whether it's feasible.
So, working backwards, you can figure out how much you should be charging as a freelancer to sustain what you consider to be a decent living, for yourself and whoever else you may need to support.
It's all very personal and there is no set "solution" that applies to everyone.
For me right now I'm doing this on my free time and I don't care much for the money, it's been 7 year i'm working in the industrie and I still have a full time job so I just see it as a bonus and experiences and mabe eventualy make the switch. Thats why I don't know exactly how to ask. But for sure i will be asking as much as i get paid at work or more.
but for 9-10$/hour you got an other job !
NEVER forget the company running costs, that's what getting you guys deep in shit, you only see your "salary" not the running costs, also always separate professional taxes and expenses and personal taxes and expenses, as a freelancer you're a company, act as such.
argh, you gotta realize that you are hurting everyone when you charge burger flipping wages for highly involved technical work.
Yeah your forgetting they don't have to pay your health insurance, gas to drive to work, costs for having a building, copies of all the software, computers, electricity, etc.
Paying a freelancer $10 an hour would be like paying someone $6 an hour to work at a studio, its just ridiculous and silly.
Remember things take ~4 times longer than they seem, so make sure you really over estimate the time it will take to do a project, and I think the cheapest you should freelance for is ~$18, if you live somewhere with a low cost of living.
9-10 not 10.25$ is minimum wage where i live, where most low end studios start you paying, seriously i know people WORKING at studio jobs getting paid 10.25$ an hour for a lot more work then i do freelance.
half the reason people can't get freelance work is because they OVER SELL themselves. Take a look at the junior positions at most companies; the larger ones pay more, but the smaller ones pay minimum wage.
the company i worked for was a smaller one, thus charged them minimum wage, the freelance i do as a compositor i charge anywhere from 15-30$ an hour depending on the company, budget, etc.
You guys are talking about 'living on freelance' i was talkling about using freelance as experience, so small studios, smaller companies, etc.
IF i was surviving off freelance, sure, i'd look at charging more, but freelance to me, at this momemtn, is work experience.
you guys do mod work for freee right? to boost up your demo reel?
if you're looking to charge a company 20$ an hour for your services, then good luck finding employment. If employment 100% right away affordable living costs is your goal, a studio job would be more your line of work, unless you're amazing and freelancing with bigger studios/companies.
yea you should be paid fairly, but fairly is debatable, given most studios start you off junior, barely above minimum wage to do the work needed.
artists are underpaid, i get it; however, charging less the minimum is stupid, but charging tons over is stupid. most of these freelance things will be smaller budgets.
however. not to say it's all like that, it's debatable and different for each situation.
But seriously, don't expect as a junior in a studio to get paid much unless it's a triple A or a bigger studio. I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations in this industry, and think they'll make a fortune.
once you get up the ladder, or gain the experience theeeen you start becoming worth more.
Yes i am from toronto, minimum wage in ontario is 10.25$ an hour. yea i feel i'm worth more, sure, but does that mean i'll get employment that way? no.
Like i said, smaller studios = smaller budgets = smaller pay = experience. lol.
I'd love to get paid 20$ an hour like you guys are spouting off, but smaller studios, smaller freelance companies, i doubt that'll happen. seriously doubt it.
Anyway this based again on the fact, that i don't need the money to live
again my opinion was based on someone not looking to make the money but the experience.
of course if money is a concern, then my post is ignored because it doesn't apply to people like that. which is 90% out there i'm sure. so again, take my words with a grain of salt, it only applies to people not using freelance as a money gainer or paying the bills, but as experience.
lol trust me i know
and you may explode when you see how much studios will charge you. lol going from 30$ an hour freelancing, to 10.25$ minimum wage in a studio.
talk about ouch.
however, realistically speaking, that's how it works. And to get experience sometimes you have to sell your liver lol before you'll make a buck. (hopefully no one is...)
look at any job out there, especially in Canada and the U.S. and look at jobs that require university level degrees...getting paid barely above minimum wage.
artist's are underpaid, sadly.
and studio jobs are not going to be better.
Well in canada at least, i'm going by the numbers at the studios around canada that i know of, and most sadly start you at minimum wage. or maybe 2 $ more.
don't get me started on there's no benefit packages either in all that.
realistically artist's are drastically underpaid. But there's a lot of jobs out there horribly underpaid.
long hours in the studio, over time not being paid, etc etc. it just sucks, but that's life. You won't always get the money you are worth, because they can find someone else cheaper to do it.
as my first freelance gig i did learn a lot from it, however, if u have no experience, you have to start somewhere. sadly.
it's funny, i raised my rates in freelancing in this industry, and keep getting told 'i'm charging too much'. lol. funny how that works?
i think i'm going to stick to the compositing industry for now, and build up experience on my own. obviously seeing everyone's response, minimum wage isn't fair, yet i still get that turned down. (and not because of skill level either)
maybe i'll start my own company and pay everyone millions. after i win the lottery lol.
but yea i think people have an unrealistic approach to studio's actually paying you fairly. All you ever hear is about studios underpaying, long hours, no benefits, no overtime, etc.
then you got good ones! but those are even harder to get into.
everyone has to start somewhere.
If you're inexperienced, instead of charging by the hour (you're going to make mistakes, you're going to redo things, and heck, you're probably slow) work out a per project rate that you think is fair. That way the company won't be paying for your lack of experience.
As someone who has been on both sides of the freelance table, if you came to me with a $10 hourly rate for art services I would assume your quality or communication is sub-par and move on. If someone takes you up on that offer then they are really desperate or looking to take advantage. Either way not a good situation to be in.
Good luck!
http://jeffreyhimmelman.com/wip/?cat=3
Easy, cowboy.
I don't want you to get involved in this sort of tomfoolery and, to make it clear that I agree with you, I will say practically the exact same thing just with a few more expletives and less protein shakes.
When I worked freelance (everything including way WAY back, doing it fulltime and now) there is absolutely NO way I would accept $10/hour and if you do accept that rate you're either a)a sucker or b) a fucking moron. It's a waste to even justify why this is so incredibly wrong - use Polycount's shiny search feature to see experienced guys tell you why you are worth more. Poor economy or not, you can get 10 bucks an hour being a dishwasher and you certainly aren't doing yourself any favours by working at that rate on pirated software to 'get experience'
blah blah blah.
Uh, that's what he said too, why are you acting like you disagree. He said (in broken English, I'll grant, but he's b1ll) that he would not accept, as a freelancer himself, minimum wage. Implying he would require much more.
I don't charge by the hour, but it works out between 40-60 USD an hour when I do freelance, just to put a hard number out there.
Lets break that down into freelance terms:
70k will get you ($32.41/hour):
52 Weeks of work a year
- 15 days vacation
- 5 days off at Christmas
- 3 sick days
- 2 personal days
- 5 Statutory holidays
So what you're REALLY getting is:
70k for 46 Weeks of work per year ($38.04/h).
(I did not include extended sick leave, maternity leave, loss of family, etc).
Lets add extended health coverage 30%:
http://www.ifebp.org/Resources/Research/sssebsusca2007.htm
91k for 46 weeks of work ($49.46/h).
This also does not covered banked holiday time for any additional overtime I might accrue:
Oh, then there's employment taxes you have to pay (seeing as you are also in Quebec):
Canada Pension Plan
Employment Insurance
Quebec Pension Plan
Provincial Parental Insurance Premium
Not to mention taxing for business income/self employment income:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/menu-eng.html
So before even paying the additional taxes (which are considerable in Quebec), you're making well into a 6-digit salary as a freelancer, just to have equal pay as an average $70k a year worker.
...anyways $10 an hour is not a lot.
Maybe if you lived in Zimbabwe, Ethiopia or North Korea, but there's no way you should be able to charge $10/h unless you're living with your parents, and on Welfare.
BTW I've charged up to $75/ hour a few times.
I dont. And so should others, man what you are saying is just insane. If you are good enough to do the job and still offer your work for 10 dollars an hour its your problem, you won't move on. On your clients will know "oh thats that cheap ass, why pay more if we can get it for 10 bucks an hour?" You created your own bad situation. And there is only one way out of it, changing clients and charging more from them.
Most of what you are saying is just plain wrong, bigger productions aren't outsourcing? Are you kidding me? They know exactly what they have from freelancers and even if they take as their minimum 3times as much as what your minimum is they will get hired, because the company saves SO much on the running costs.
I can't get over it how insane this 10$ rate is. Especially with you saying its not enough, but still you defend it like its something that should not be changed.
This brings up a good point. It's easy for a beginner to think that game developers work like consumers, looking for a good price and using price point as their decision making factor. This is not the case for anyone you would want to work for (and that has actual financial backing). An experienced person looking to outsource knows what artists generally cost, has a budget to get work done, and cares about getting the done at a high quality on time within that budget.
They know it's going to cost 40+ per hour (were it to be broken down that way) and are only going to be looking for trustworthy outsources that have good portfolios at that price point. They aren't going to switch to someone else just because they are half the cost.
Now sometimes their budget isn't enough to get a top tier artist, and they have to settle for someone lower, or reduce their scope, but anyone willing to pay 10 dollars an hour to get it all done is not someone who is going to be professional to work with.
I talked to a few graphic designers I knew before I jumped into freelance and they all said even students shouldnt work for less than £15 an hour, which is about $30-35 an hour. they charge anything from £20-75 an hour, but they do work with the BBC and Channel 4 and stuff. typical UK freelance game artist is anything between £15-30 gbp in my experience, depending on your skill level, daily rates and project based rates are much easier to work with though. Also Outsource companies have their own rates usually which will be lower than your usual daily rate but still more than if you were in house.
Remember aswell that freelancers often dont work all year round aswell, not through choice but because jobs dry up or contracts need signing etc. Lining up jobs is a difficult cookie to crack unless you are constantly in demand or sign a big 12 month contract.
I guess it will depend alot on how I feel the quality of my work looks at the end of the school year.
For example, you're an artist with no experience which means you might make between $30-50k/year salary for entry level, your hourly freelance rate should be 30-50/hr. You're a senior badass making $90k/year salary, you approach the $100/hr freelance rate. You've got a small company with business expenses? Double that.
The hourly thing is moot anyway, as you mentioned a per asset cost. I just always used it as a way to determine what a per asset or per project cost would be to begin with. Never actually gave the clients an hourly rate.
But people who Hire you doesn't always know what is the work charge to do a character or an environment so they think you are just crasy asking a certain amount for a model wich is ok depending alway on the level of complexity even if its for Iphone.
Yep, the real money is in charging the "normal" day rate, but being fast enough to do a day's worth in a few hours.
If you're truly insane, work a full time salaried job AND do an evening's worth of freelance work.*
*not recommended for the over 30, or for more than a few weeks at a time