Yeah, sorry man. I'm just being an argumentative ass. I think perhaps A&D is too top heavy to be able to rapidly develop. When you see what someone like Andrew Shpagin can do on their own it makes you wonder how things take so much time.
True. Autodesk is just way too bloated. I'm curious as to how they are able to acquire so many companies that were in direct competition. I'm not super knowledgeable when it comes to law, but it seems like very obvious anti-competitive behavior and that the FTC should be comin' down on 'em pretty hard.
I'm curious as to how they are able to acquire so many companies that were in direct competition. I'm not super knowledgeable when it comes to law, but it seems like very obvious anti-competitive behavior and that the FTC should be comin' down on 'em pretty hard.
It's not a coercive monopoly, meaning we still have other choices. As long as they don't buy out, say, Modo, or Pixologic, we all have the option to switch to a non AD product. Legally, there's a significant difference between having a massive market share and having a monopoly, though it often doesn't look that way from the outside. Furthermore, someone would have to prove not only that AD had a coercive monopoly, but that AD had imposed competitive barriers for others in the field. Basically, AD has a long ass way to go before they're a legal monopoly and thus regulated by the FTC.
That doesn't mean they don't need to get off their ass and delivery SoftMayaMax 2012.
I used it a little this past weekend, and had some good experiences, although I did encounter a bug or two, and some really terrible Viewport performance. I literally just had a box in the scene with no advanced shaders (Just default) and was getting severe lurching and low framerates.
I look forward to seeing further updates and spending some more time with it, as I've been really impressed with the recent commitment to improving the product.
I used it a little this past weekend, and had some good experiences, although I did encounter a bug or two, and some really terrible Viewport performance. I literally just had a box in the scene with no advanced shaders (Just default) and was getting severe lurching and low framerates.
I look forward to seeing further updates and spending some more time with it, as I've been really impressed with the recent commitment to improving the product.
Could you answer a quick question about the UV tools?
I'm wondering about that white box that appears to the right of the vertex, edge, face selection modes.
Is that essentially a shell selection mode or select by element mode? Is it hotkeyable to 4 in the uv dialog?
That was one thing that drove me nuts. That little checkbox is a pain to tick and untick in the old uv editor. It's a wonder that they haven't done something like this before considering how much people use it to organize their UV sheets.
Could you answer a quick question about the UV tools?
I'm wondering about that white box that appears to the right of the vertex, edge, face selection modes.
Is that essentially a shell selection mode or select by element mode? Is it hotkeyable to 4 in the uv dialog?
That was one thing that drove me nuts. That little checkbox is a pain to tick and untick in the old uv editor. It's a wonder that they haven't done something like this before considering how much people use it to organize their UV sheets.
Technically no beta tester can talk about it until March 1st, those that do jeopardize future participation in any and all autodesk beta programs.
So this probably isn't going to be answered, until then...
Cool preview. But on the caddies. Do they still move when you rotate a model or update your selection? Or can I have it like it should be, in one stationary spot that I can always find?
You said it no longer covers up your selection which was indeed annoying but the fact that the thing moved around my screen made me refuse to upgrade to 2011 and will keep me from using 2012 unless I can find an awesome program to hack that function out.
Once I placed one Caddy the rest popped up in that one spot and they don't move around as I navigate the viewport. I think there was a hot fix for 2011 that cured that shifting while rotating that you talked about? Because it doesn't happen to me in 2011, but I do remember it happening, maybe that was in 2010... Anyway they seem to behave like the old max floaters did, if you want that.
The one last remaining annoying thing for me (that is easily worked around), is if you place them next to the right edge of the viewport, as the title of the caddy changes it will adjust its position so the caddy + text stay in the viewport.
Now here's the kicker, it doesn't hop until you mouse off of a button. Which is helpful if you're moving from "ok" to "Apply and Continue" it won't hop.
But if you're moving from "OK" to "Cancel" and pass over the middle button it hops around making it hard to hit the Cancel button.
The solution is to place them with enough room for the longest title to stay in the viewport. Typically that is "Apply and Continue" So mouse over that, move the caddy and the default position is set so it won't hop around.
Sweet! Thanks for the info Mark. Glad to see Autodesk made those changes. Also didnt know there was a hotfix for them in 2011. Only played with 2011 before it was released at Bungie and hated that moving around stuff so much just stuck with 2010.
Yea I hear ya, caddies are just now getting to the point they feel on level with what was there before. The only place they push past the old menu floaters seems to be all in the back end. Which I think that is their main reason for being so stubborn on the idea.
But holy bawls did they get caddies off on the wrong foot and take a little too long to bring them around to "adequate replacement" status. I'm glad they're finally there tho...
question:
currently, 3dsmax 2010/11 (maybe 9 too?) have DX10 support for their viewports. however, a lot of custom shaders don't work properly in DX10 mode (presumably their DX9 programmed?) and in general, DX10 seems to have been a tacked on feature more than a fully functional mode.
is 2012 going to support DX10/11 fully? and by fully, i mean working better/smoother/faster than DX9 mode?
Recently formatted and reinstalled Windows. Having everything run so quickly and be so smooth and nice makes me loathe installing Max again tbh, and not much in this thread makes me reconsider, might be time to learn a new 3D package, heard Modo was good, how good is it performance wise? From what I've seen in regards to tools it's ahead of Max by mucho :P
Glad they have updated the UV tools but am I the only one that thinks they just jacked the TexTools in a way?
And those new conform brushes for retopologizing... They just took Wrapit and implemented that idea with the already existing retopology tools in max.
Laurens Corijn said it best earlier... In a way they are just trying to make it harder for 3rd Party plugins... I think Autodesk is really pushing to get that Monopoly over the industry. Not that they don't already have it, but have you seen Mudbox 2012? They are on Zbrush's ass... Not much longer guys... before mudbox becomes number one (and this is coming from a Zbrush fan).
Don't get me wrong... I am excited for the new built in tools. Just feel sorry for TexTools, Wrapit, 3point Shader, and Xoliul Shader
have you seen Mudbox 2012? They are on Zbrush's ass... Not much longer guys... before mudbox becomes number one (and this is coming from a Zbrush fan).
After the disappointment that is zb4 I can see Mud overtaking zbrush at some point in the next few years, assuming Mud keeps adding major worthwhile features (ex: Voxel/dynamic tessellation, auto-retopology, hard surface sculpting, etc.). Also the '.mud' files need to come way down in size, they're significantly larger then '.ztl'.
In terms of tools and functionality, max is easily the most powerful 3D package out there. That's why so many people put up with its shortcomings (mostly the ui, performance and legacy junk) You should only use max if you're willing to take the time to learn to use it properly and are ready to drop factory settings and customize it.
As a modo user, and someone who's see the stuff Per does with max, I agree with this 100%. Max is far and away the most advanced and powerful modeling tool out there.
The question then becomes; is dealing with the interface worth the extra features max provides?
I think if I had to start from scratch and pick a 3d app to learn from(knowing everything I know about Max, Modo, Maya, etc) I would probably learn max. But i'm very comfortable with Modo and love it, and there really are only a few rare occasions that i'm really like "Oh fuck I wish I was doing this in max". Mainly anything I want a non-destructive workflow, like complex spline cloning, stuff that is a "1 shot" operation in modo that you can't go back and re-tweak the curve or whatever.
Yeah IMO if you want an app to just jump right in and model out of the box, modo is best. If you want more advanced stuff, Max is better, but you have to put in the effort to make it usable.
Why not just get rid of the caddies... they're the most annoying things... ughh
When I tried the 2011 demo, the caddies were the most frustrating things, sometimes the numpad doesn't work, or they move around like crazy, the hotfix apparently fixed them, but really why not give a option for the old look.
2008 still is my love and I will use it forever, but I hear that they made 2012 much, MUCH faster when you're messing around with millions of polygons.
I guess we'll see what happens, hopefully the demo isint as massive as 2011, gosh!
Kind of a noob question, but I am assuming you guys have battlestations capable enough to run max as smoothly as modo does on my modest wintel laptop, right?
Because max since 2010 has just been a big sloth speed and performance wise for me. Everything in the viewport has lag of some kind, it just became far too slow for me to do anything and it kills the whole experience. I guess that's a hardware thing though, and since I am saving up for my own custom rig (aiming around $700-800 range), will I notice a big difference in performance in max?
I am moving more towards modo + maya now for my general needs (modeling, texturing, basic rigs (hopefully will learn mel more thoroughly eventually) and animation) but in the end I'm still glad I learned max first as my introduction to 3d. If I was able sooner to run it more smoothly, I would jump right back in, but for now I'm very happy with modo for making stuff and it will probably be that way for awhile.
Autodesk took a risk and gave me permission to post beta video's without signing the NDA, (Even if it was bad, so no evil corporation tactics there)
I fucking hated max 2011, 2010 wasn't as bad but not good.
Anyways, fact is 2012 is running very smoothly so you should all be happy (Assuming nitrous doesn't get ass raped by some graphics cards)
I've tested it on 3 cards now and the better the card the better the performance as any sane person would expect.
I'd be careful on overselling the performance without proof to back it up, so its awesome you did the video. "improved viewport performance" been touted before, 9, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and its made some modest increases compared to the 2012 leap but it always seems over hyped. Also its kind of a thankless feature, people get used to the speed they manage to take it for granted and pack their scenes to the new limit then cry about performance again heh.
Personally I don't think it is over hyped this time, it rocks my world, I've been loading up old scenes for months now wondering how I ever worked on them prior. Doing lighting is much less trial and error and I can animate with the lights on and know almost exactly what it's going to look like, simply amazing...
I have shit blood trying to speed up max 2011, 2010, I'm aware for a long time performance was just dying and wouldn't easily take a risk publically doing a 180* on my opinion of it.
Will some people still have issues? Probably.
The difference is I am not pumping my scene to the brim like a 1 month old zbrush fanboy and crying when I can't edit my 3 million poly mesh in realtime in max.
It's never been that fast but 2012 is definitely faster than 2009, 2010, 2011.
As for proof, maybe my video has alot of bias going on, thats subjective, but you definitely saw proof that converting models/ editing poly objects with turbosmooth on is a shitload faster and thats been tested now on multiple hardware setups.
like having to switch out of a right/left view to extrude
what? o_O
also for the function your are searching, you might not even have to dig into scripting, just use the script listener, push some buttons and copy paste it all together, i mean its just convert to poly, hide poly and maybe go back into vertex mode, should take no longer than a minute to click together
In any case, you're right. It's just those damn widgets. They piss me off. God spinners and crazy. Why should I keep hearing the UI and use the mouse to make damn simple tasks, rather than a mixture of genuine intuitive keyboard shortcuts, user interface, the actions of mouse, and context-sensitive "foregoing" S.
Replies
It's not a coercive monopoly, meaning we still have other choices. As long as they don't buy out, say, Modo, or Pixologic, we all have the option to switch to a non AD product. Legally, there's a significant difference between having a massive market share and having a monopoly, though it often doesn't look that way from the outside. Furthermore, someone would have to prove not only that AD had a coercive monopoly, but that AD had imposed competitive barriers for others in the field. Basically, AD has a long ass way to go before they're a legal monopoly and thus regulated by the FTC.
That doesn't mean they don't need to get off their ass and delivery SoftMayaMax 2012.
I look forward to seeing further updates and spending some more time with it, as I've been really impressed with the recent commitment to improving the product.
Could you answer a quick question about the UV tools?
I'm wondering about that white box that appears to the right of the vertex, edge, face selection modes.
Is that essentially a shell selection mode or select by element mode? Is it hotkeyable to 4 in the uv dialog?
That was one thing that drove me nuts. That little checkbox is a pain to tick and untick in the old uv editor. It's a wonder that they haven't done something like this before considering how much people use it to organize their UV sheets.
So this probably isn't going to be answered, until then...
http://area.autodesk.com/3dsmax2012
http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/ken/3ds_max_2012_announced
http://www.polycount.com/2011/03/01/3dsmax-2012-thoughts-and-impressions/
You said it no longer covers up your selection which was indeed annoying but the fact that the thing moved around my screen made me refuse to upgrade to 2011 and will keep me from using 2012 unless I can find an awesome program to hack that function out.
The one last remaining annoying thing for me (that is easily worked around), is if you place them next to the right edge of the viewport, as the title of the caddy changes it will adjust its position so the caddy + text stay in the viewport.
Now here's the kicker, it doesn't hop until you mouse off of a button. Which is helpful if you're moving from "ok" to "Apply and Continue" it won't hop.
But if you're moving from "OK" to "Cancel" and pass over the middle button it hops around making it hard to hit the Cancel button.
The solution is to place them with enough room for the longest title to stay in the viewport. Typically that is "Apply and Continue" So mouse over that, move the caddy and the default position is set so it won't hop around.
But holy bawls did they get caddies off on the wrong foot and take a little too long to bring them around to "adequate replacement" status. I'm glad they're finally there tho...
currently, 3dsmax 2010/11 (maybe 9 too?) have DX10 support for their viewports. however, a lot of custom shaders don't work properly in DX10 mode (presumably their DX9 programmed?) and in general, DX10 seems to have been a tacked on feature more than a fully functional mode.
is 2012 going to support DX10/11 fully? and by fully, i mean working better/smoother/faster than DX9 mode?
Did anyone see the Send to vids showing maya to mudbox linking?. thats there for max too, nice to see they've done their own version of GoZee
+1 for you
And those new conform brushes for retopologizing... They just took Wrapit and implemented that idea with the already existing retopology tools in max.
Laurens Corijn said it best earlier... In a way they are just trying to make it harder for 3rd Party plugins... I think Autodesk is really pushing to get that Monopoly over the industry. Not that they don't already have it, but have you seen Mudbox 2012? They are on Zbrush's ass... Not much longer guys... before mudbox becomes number one (and this is coming from a Zbrush fan).
Don't get me wrong... I am excited for the new built in tools. Just feel sorry for TexTools, Wrapit, 3point Shader, and Xoliul Shader
After the disappointment that is zb4 I can see Mud overtaking zbrush at some point in the next few years, assuming Mud keeps adding major worthwhile features (ex: Voxel/dynamic tessellation, auto-retopology, hard surface sculpting, etc.). Also the '.mud' files need to come way down in size, they're significantly larger then '.ztl'.
As a modo user, and someone who's see the stuff Per does with max, I agree with this 100%. Max is far and away the most advanced and powerful modeling tool out there.
The question then becomes; is dealing with the interface worth the extra features max provides?
I think if I had to start from scratch and pick a 3d app to learn from(knowing everything I know about Max, Modo, Maya, etc) I would probably learn max. But i'm very comfortable with Modo and love it, and there really are only a few rare occasions that i'm really like "Oh fuck I wish I was doing this in max". Mainly anything I want a non-destructive workflow, like complex spline cloning, stuff that is a "1 shot" operation in modo that you can't go back and re-tweak the curve or whatever.
When I tried the 2011 demo, the caddies were the most frustrating things, sometimes the numpad doesn't work, or they move around like crazy, the hotfix apparently fixed them, but really why not give a option for the old look.
2008 still is my love and I will use it forever, but I hear that they made 2012 much, MUCH faster when you're messing around with millions of polygons.
I guess we'll see what happens, hopefully the demo isint as massive as 2011, gosh!
Because max since 2010 has just been a big sloth speed and performance wise for me. Everything in the viewport has lag of some kind, it just became far too slow for me to do anything and it kills the whole experience. I guess that's a hardware thing though, and since I am saving up for my own custom rig (aiming around $700-800 range), will I notice a big difference in performance in max?
I am moving more towards modo + maya now for my general needs (modeling, texturing, basic rigs (hopefully will learn mel more thoroughly eventually) and animation) but in the end I'm still glad I learned max first as my introduction to 3d. If I was able sooner to run it more smoothly, I would jump right back in, but for now I'm very happy with modo for making stuff and it will probably be that way for awhile.
the demo is literally the full product, just without an activation key it becomes dead after 30 days.
[ame]
Kind of reminds me of Vista and 7.
Hopefully he doesn't get in trouble for leaking a video of 2012 or something...
[ame]
Damn.
I fucking hated max 2011, 2010 wasn't as bad but not good.
Anyways, fact is 2012 is running very smoothly so you should all be happy (Assuming nitrous doesn't get ass raped by some graphics cards)
I've tested it on 3 cards now and the better the card the better the performance as any sane person would expect.
Personally I don't think it is over hyped this time, it rocks my world, I've been loading up old scenes for months now wondering how I ever worked on them prior. Doing lighting is much less trial and error and I can animate with the lights on and know almost exactly what it's going to look like, simply amazing...
Will some people still have issues? Probably.
The difference is I am not pumping my scene to the brim like a 1 month old zbrush fanboy and crying when I can't edit my 3 million poly mesh in realtime in max.
It's never been that fast but 2012 is definitely faster than 2009, 2010, 2011.
As for proof, maybe my video has alot of bias going on, thats subjective, but you definitely saw proof that converting models/ editing poly objects with turbosmooth on is a shitload faster and thats been tested now on multiple hardware setups.
Reverse-bullshit to you, yes you can, very simple, go into editable poly, select vertex and go down and click the Hide button. So simple.
[ame]
11 days? woo!
http://area.autodesk.com/gdc2011/sculpting?KeepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=520&width=840
To create the highpoly base and then create a normal map from this? Interesting or at least this is how this tool can be used, maybe.
what? o_O
also for the function your are searching, you might not even have to dig into scripting, just use the script listener, push some buttons and copy paste it all together, i mean its just convert to poly, hide poly and maybe go back into vertex mode, should take no longer than a minute to click together