Just found this thread and thought I'd post saying how great a post this is Kevin. As an artist who's just begun his journey nearly a year ago now it was very inspiring and it echoed some of the thoughts I've been having lately about my progression into Environment art. I've been a bit too focused on relying on tutorials to improve my skills in ZBrush or hard surface workflow when I would progress faster by just experimenting on my own and seeing what results I can get; a lesson I should applied to my studies earlier as I had to go over the same hurdle while messing around with designing levels on Source for the past 5 years and again when I started creating TF2 items earlier in the year.
I went from designing levels like this:
To this:
And from TF2 items like this:
To this (Which was actually put into TF2 by Valve a few months ago):
The progression of my skills from point A to point B in those examples wasn't reached by having someone explain to me how to model a hat step by step or the viewing of videos of 13 year old kids modeling on Youtube; It was reached by tons of experimentation and observations of workflow and technique of peoples work here on Polycount and the games I was basing my content off of.
Hopefully over the coming months I'll be able to progress my skills in ZBrush and high poly modeling through personal experiments rather than expecting that watching an Eat 3D DVD on ZBrush will make me an expert as I had thought it would be able to a few months ago.
I tried not to let myself get sucked into this thread. But I had to make a small observation. Many people learn in many different ways, and we all come to the table with our own varying set of goals, talents, and background. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes not. In a forum setting where the skill range is very wide... it's inevitable that there will be differences of perspective on what is a productive use of time regarding asking/answering questions and making/watching tutorials.
For me it is usually an effort of finding the best method for the circumstance. Most of the things I learn is an effort of trial and error, back and forth. A lot of the time things in reference materials (either docs, tutorials, videos, whatever) don't make any sense without a base sense of the things at hand. Which requires some experience. Many things are not learned in some building-block way but are assimilated in whole (language, for example). But because of the broad scope of those things, it is often necessary to go back and fill in the gaps (you know, re-reading a novel will often show more depth than the first time because you now have a broader understanding of what is going on).
I personally do like the idea of the community sharing as much information/techniques as possible. At the same time, I think that the best thing is to develop an appreciation for the learning process... utilize creativity to tackle problems. Someone mentioned earlier the scientific method. Great include! Someone else mentioned that the real point here is that learning to learn is the real goal. Yes!
I have also learned that the things that really stump me personally are things that seem to go unanswered in the forums. It may be that those people who are skilled/knowledgeable enough to answer my questions are already pre-occupied in some of their own projects--and likely don't have the time to even read my personal dilemmas. Let's face it... most of us don't have the time to wake up and say, "Gee... I'm going to go answer some random question today."
The very act of any of us participating in these kinds of threads says something about each of us.
In any event, I am happy to have found Polycount and enjoy the passion everyone has here for 3D! At all levels.
I just wanted to say that this thread sucked away a good (and entertaining) 30 minutes of my morning. 30 minutes I could have spent experimenting and failing and learning, because I pretty much agree with the crowd here.
Also, from what I can tell, Kevin (among many others) already offer and contribute very much to the learning in this community. People need to realize that we're all just regular people still living regular lives. Add on top of that what I assume can be hectic work schedules at times, one guy can only offer so much. Give the guy a break already.
ps. I've pestered Kevin during work hours, but on the UDN. I was a licensee so we were kind of paying for that help in a way lulz
I have also learned that the things that really stump me personally are things that seem to go unanswered in the forums.
It's hard to accept, but there's a whole lot of stuff that simply cannot be taught directly. It can be learned, and you can be given pointers and tips and procedures, but oftentimes it comes down to either doing it for you or letting you figure it out.
For example, someone can tell you what a warm and a cool color is, and there has been a dizzying amount of important material written about color theory, but you can't just explain to someone how to pick colors and have them instantly turn into Rembrandt.
It's a useful bit of perspective to pick up some more physical hobbies -- take dance lessons, or play tennis, or practice sculpting with clay. There are so many minute, one mm or one inch adjustments that go into any physical task and even if it were possible to explain them all, short of mind control you can't be shown every little detail. You have to grow and learn and develop on your own.
It's hard to accept, but there's a whole lot of stuff that simply cannot be taught directly.
I don't think it is hard to accept that... it just takes a certain level of maturity. It's also easier if you have cultivated an enjoyment for discovery, challenges and learning. Which may be the point altogether; too often, people want to get to the end point too fast (because they don't understand the value of the journey).
With a cooler, more well rounded head about this, I want to add some to the topic now,
You see, I knew this was an inspirational thread, and I read the whole thread leading up to a reply, I feel that the more people know the same thing, the more people are out there able to help each other without too much discrepancy.
I was warned for my activity in this thread, and really at first it wasn't necessary and I made some good points to counter some things which set me off, and Kevin's words were really good and meaningful, but it seemed like people who needed help were poop on a couple other people's shoes. So I acted in ways that made it necessary to tell me to think more before I talk.
I have a stick up for complex.
long story short, polycount's staff is really mature and I never have been spoken to so considerately by a forum staff. But then, I'm not usually around such intelligent and sincere communities as this one, they are rare.
I shouldn't try to explain it, but I should still pop in to thank kevin for his insights, and just urge all to, as a contrast to point, even when the question is so nooby, if you have the free time to look awesome for knowing the answer, please, look awesome for knowing the answer even if the question are so noob, because it's what makes great communities greater.
I took some things wrong, and I read too far into the comments of others perhaps, I just wanted to apologize to the people who knew where I was coming from, even when I didn't realize where I was going.
Thanks for a little time, it means a lot to me, and I wouldn't exploit people for their time, some of you are like my heros, so it's like spider man saying he won't save gwen.
Nobody has to go out of their way to put replies to me or forgive me out loud, but I hope that you can overlook this stuff from before, as I really really felt like half the people reading and replying didn't know the value of helping others and so it just looked like these motivational words found in the thread were being taken as a valid excuse to ignore people.
Sorry for any trouble, I know if anything for most people I was less trouble and more laughable, but I know from PM's some of you knew what I meant, and knew that I was taking it wrong. Sorry guys.
Thanks for a little time, it means a lot to me, and I wouldn't exploit people for their time, some of you are like my heros, so it's like spider man saying he won't save gwen.
I can see where you might think that, but it's important to remember the thread is titled: "On why too much help stunts your growth"
not "On why I'm never going to help you sorry slags ever again! Piss the f*ck off and die if you ever think you're getting anything from me ever again you sorry f*ckhtards! /tableflip /punch-to-the-nuts /spit-in-yer-eye"
Which I'm sure the first draft of that post probably looked like =P
Spiderman, thinks you can put your socks on just fine by yourself.
It might seem like the most crazy complex thing you've ever tried to do, but you'll figure it out. Because you did, you not only have socks on your feet, but you gained a skill that will help you put your pants on.
Spiderman doesn't need to help you with your pants now because you did the sock thing on your own. Now Spiderman has time to do things like watch his daughters grow up, talk to his wife, maybe take a dump in peace without someone pounding on the door yelling about socks...
It does make perfect sense now, but really didn't at first, doh. And the thread has such cool info since last night, these pics are awesome, and Zipfinator's pics are really inspiring.
Wow I actually read through all the pages. Great thread! As a aspiring artist of this generation who is still learning I can say that everything you do has some meaning behind even if we lack the serenity to understand it now. And even doing and looking for all those tutorials is a good thing that I did because I can clearly say there isn't any shortcuts or magical buttons and that's what makes it worth so much later.
It also would be great if this turned out like some Before and After Thread, there is nothing more motivating than remembering that your heroes started from the same place that you did.
I quite agree that one has to make their own mistakes to learn--and I have a funny, stubborn way of going about that.
I have a tendency to be given advice (like when I was in school, on PC, etc), think I understand the advice but, for some insane reason, think I KNOW better, and then learn why I'm obviously not as smart as those that gave me the advice.
Example: When it comes to animating a scene, I was taught that you should always block out what you're going to do. Well, I thought to myself, that sounds ok, but really, I know where I'm going, let me just do it all as I go. And so I go ahead and animate a scene, working on each part as I go, with no end in sight. Needless to say, the animation turned into a HUGE, long mess and I poured a hell of a lot of time into a piece that probably won't be seeing the light of day again. If I had blocked it out to the end, I would of realized how ridiculous it was getting WAY sooner, and adjusted accordingly.
I was TOLD what was the best way to do something, but it wasn't until I experienced what was a bad way that I could value the advice.
I have heard of completely straight-aheading a scene and making it work. But I'm SURE it only works for animators that are well experienced in blocking out a scene as well.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, you can teach and give advice all you want, but it's not until someone has experienced other, usually worse, ways of doing something that they can value what has been said.
Ok, a bit of a ramble there, but call it mulling over the inspirational advice already posted here. Thanks for being awesome as always, PC
sometimes a little bit of knowledge (knowing what you dont know) is your worst enemy...
I started to learn 3d in isolation back in the 90s at my parents home (deepest darkest wales on a hillside 2 miles from the nearest village) with the occasional magazine article but no internet....i wasnt inhibited by others...and yes my art sucked big time for the most part, but i learnt how to experiment, i learnt the importance of trial and error, and of sometimes ignoring best practice temporarily for a broarder knowledge base befor applying best practice to what you now know, heck that often leads to new best practices. I think i still get the most enjoyment from this and has become one of my strengths.
I quite agree that one has to make their own mistakes to learn--and I have a funny, stubborn way of going about that.
I have a tendency to be given advice (like when I was in school, on PC, etc), think I understand the advice but, for some insane reason, think I KNOW better, and then learn why I'm obviously not as smart as those that gave me the advice.
Example: When it comes to animating a scene, I was taught that you should always block out what you're going to do. Well, I thought to myself, that sounds ok, but really, I know where I'm going, let me just do it all as I go. And so I go ahead and animate a scene, working on each part as I go, with no end in sight. Needless to say, the animation turned into a HUGE, long mess and I poured a hell of a lot of time into a piece that probably won't be seeing the light of day again. If I had blocked it out to the end, I would of realized how ridiculous it was getting WAY sooner, and adjusted accordingly.
I was TOLD what was the best way to do something, but it wasn't until I experienced what was a bad way that I could value the advice.
I have heard of completely straight-aheading a scene and making it work. But I'm SURE it only works for animators that are well experienced in blocking out a scene as well.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, you can teach and give advice all you want, but it's not until someone has experienced other, usually worse, ways of doing something that they can value what has been said.
Ok, a bit of a ramble there, but call it mulling over the inspirational advice already posted here. Thanks for being awesome as always, PC
I'll throw in my 2 cents and refer to what some old Italian guy once said...
"Although nature commences with reason and ends in experience it is necessary for us to do the opposite, that is to commence with experience and from this to proceed to investigate the reason."
-Leonardo da Vinci
And on a personal level...let me just be absolutely honest and say that, even after graduating from art school and getting my degree, and having majored in game art design...school barely taught me ANYTHING...in fact, I would go so far as to say it didn't teach me jack and shit.
What really got me to where I am today (Just now understanding most things concerning game asset creating) was my passion for this medium...for the process, for the art. So much so, that I have had relationships come and go, sprout and and then die, because I was way too involved with my computer... (sorry for the dramatics).
The truth is, if you want to have a chance to make it in this industry, don't expect to be spoon-fed at ALL. I'm not in the industry yet, but I've gathered that much since then.
Tutorials are great, video's are cool, but to focus on such specific aspects and styles of working etc is no good. By doing, you are experiencing, and that's the only way to go, folks.
Tutorials are great, video's are cool, but to focus on such specific aspects and styles of working etc is no good. By doing, you are experiencing, and that's the only way to go, folks.
Yep, if asked in an interview:
"How would you approach making a turnip truck that was converted into a circus caravan for 47 years, then fell off a cliff and before hitting bottom it was then sucked into an alternate dimension and mixed with a manatee and spit back out into the game world which by the way is fairly stylized?"
If you say: "I would start by looking for a tutorial..." or "hold on I need to make call or a post..." or worse "you stare at a light fixture hoping they forgot they asked you a question" then you've lost it...
If your portfolio doesn't answer these types of questions and for some reason you land an interview, they will probably ask them... Which is another sign that your portfolio might not be sending the right message.
The questions you want to hear them ask you are:
"Do you want to hear about our benefits package?"
"Would you like to see where you will be sitting... err if you accept... I mean, IF you get the job?"
"How comfortable are you managing other artists?"
"Would you sign this, oh its nothing... it just gives us the right to detain you on these premises for the next seven years..."
Yep, if asked in an interview:
"How would you approach making a turnip truck that was converted into a circus caravan for 47 years, then fell off a cliff and before hitting bottom it was then sucked into an alternate dimension and mixed with a manatee and spit back out into the game world which by the way is fairly stylized?"
I coul'nt agree more, but I do think that sharing knowledge is important still.
"Don't tell people how to live their lives, just tell them stories, and they'll figure out how the stories apply to them"
Same with tutorials, when I watch a video for instance I know I shouldn't watch them and mimic them in your work, but I do try them out and see if I can use them and implement them.
As said countless times on this thread, tutorials should be observed, not seen, and learn how to apply those neat little tricks you have on your workflow, both to speed your workflow and to make your art prettier.
But that sure was an inspiring post, and great read throughout the entire thread.
EDIT : This thread really made me rethink my professional life and personal growing as a professional artist.
Admittedly, Sometimes I see myself just forgetting how you do some stuff in texturing for instance, (Mainly due because I spent months without doing it) and I open a video tutorial to refresh my memory, and I can't help it but use exactly the same technics I see there in my work. That is partly because texturing still isn't a big part of my job, and I don't have a personal workflow established.
Doing things on your own is insanely important, you will rage, you will smack your head in your wacom, you will doubt of yourself, I know I do a little bit too often but I like to think that's what make us great and resilient, our passion.
I love helping out my coworkers - I'm the one who usualy learns that new tool or technique first because its my personality. But because I know and respect my coworkers I enjoy answering their questions and helping out. But I don't like 'students' - most want to learn by having you tell them what to do - but the lessons don't stick. A good student is interested and active in their 3D education, they seek out and find the answers online and through trial and error. Those kind's of 'students' need very little guidance which is good.
Essentially, I'll answer the same question once or twice but after that I've lost faith in your ability to learn (fundamentally) and you are a lost cause to me.
This extends to almost all forums - 80% of the time its just the same questions repeated every 2 weeks.
If I and others can learn 3D and be good and get jobs with minimal guidance from human teachers then you should be able to as well.
@Talon: Up until recently, whenever I made a thread or a post, I never really got a reply. I was a bit saddened for not getting any replies, but it only made me want to get better to try and catch they eye of PC's members. While I'm sure this doesn't apply to everyone, not getting replies help me get better.
For some reason, I was never able to follow tutorials, so I learnt everything by myself. It took me a long time (I've been doing 3D for a couple of years now and I still suck massively, but I'm understanding how get there ). For Dom War's mini, I looked up tutorials for doing hand-painted textures. Just following them, I had some really shitty results on my entry. I was stuck with them for the time being, but I realized that I didn't have the fundamentals. I took up drawing everything I can, with or without reference, and got better in a short time. I even had moments where the thing I've been drawing was awesome, and suddenly it just looked off in so many ways that it would have been better to start over.
We need help, but 'too much' help definately stunts our growth because problems-solving is a must as a skill in this industry. How many times did you see something that looked quick and easy and it becomes a mess when you try to aproach it by yourself? and how many doubts and researches and tries and frustrations when you deal with a personal project or idea? Help is a good starting point but you'll need to get deep in your stuff by yourself because experience is not exchangeable.
It's like these elephants, they can only paint what they are trained for...
And then the elephant paused for a few seconds, looked at his trainer and stabbed him in the neck with the brush and rushed the crowd... The other elephants around trumpeted as if cheering him on.
Which is what would probably happen when someone who whines about not getting enough help would probably do when they realized they're just a patriot.
I'm pretty new to the whole game art thing, and this is what I've been doing for my first model. My first workflow:
1. I want to make a rhino man
2. research rhino pictures for skin texture
3. research human anatomy, plan out the various muscle groups and how they will look on your creature, proportions etc.
4. gather anatomical references, anatomy tutorials, study other people, study yourself.
5. model the fucking thing
6. sculpt those fucking muscles
7. post on polycount "how's this shit looking?"
8. no reply, guess it should be worked on more, some guy posts about liking dicks lolol, well fine then, come back later after you go through the anatomy a second time.
9. when you have a more complete product, post again. maybe get one reply, some critique, maybe nothing at all.
10. go back and fucking finish the sculpt, paint it, unwrap it
11. learn from it and go make something new.
That's my workflow. That's what I'm doing, damn it, and I fail to see how it's a bad method or how I WON'T learn from doing it this way.
You learn more by doing, I actually learned more about painting textures back in ye old days. When I joined polycount I fell into the same routine alot of newer members here are stuck in, spending all the time that could of been spent making art reading tutorials.
probably just a matter of finding the right balance. starting from total scratch without any example or instructions isn't very practical for many things. However just reading books (or watching videos) only all the time long doesn't get you anywhere either.
Have someone show you the basics by giving you a demo or quick run down, then go out try for yourself, fall on your nose, get up again, try again and ask for help if you're really totally stuck...
When I was at university, I had a calculus teacher who was 88 years old. GREAT teacher. Dude loved math and calculus. He would always tell us that it didn't matter how many problems he did on the board and how well we listened, if we didn't do the homework, we would fail.
You're not going to get every problem right on the homework, but that's how you learn, and that's how you pass the test.
I don't see any reason that failing is necessary and superior to achieving one's goal. OP's statement negates the concept of community and working together, sharing ideas, and if it would be practised in any field (computer graphics included) it would suppress progress in that field.
He said 'too much help', not 'any and all help'. There's nothing in the post that negates the concept of community, working together, or sharing ideas. It's about the reliance of others do basically do everything for you. If you're stuck doing someone else's workflow because that's how they did it and you've never attempted anything else, that would be a far greater suppression of your progress down the line than having the ability to learn from your own mistakes.
failing is experience. It's absolutely essential. One could say the more mistakes you do in a short amount of time the better. As long as you analyzize what you are doing wrong and learn from it.
@StefanH Success is a better kind of experience. It tells you that what you did was a good idea, and gives you motivation. There is always the risk of failing, but there is no need to fail. If you do it right, you can start with a success, and slowly learn to perform even better, without failing. And that is thanks to community and sharing ideas.
@cryrid I think we all agree that making others do our work for us, not progressing, and not learning from one's mistakes makes a bad artist. If this was what OP said it would be trivial.
It wouldn't be trivial when so many don't actually grasp it (which is often enough the case). And I still don't see how anything in the first post negates the concept of community or sharing ideas.
Success is a better kind of experience. It tells you that what you did was a good idea, and gives you motivation.
Success can be a deceiving thing. One could model a car and think they were successful in creating it, unaware that having never tried alternative methods it actually took them 4 days longer to create than it could have. I can't help but think of an old code GamePro once ran for the SNES version of the Lion King. It originally included about 16-20 steps, though it later turned out only the last 2-3 were required. The rain dance equivalent of useless button combinations had no effect, yet the chime would still successfully ring after the final real steps leaving many who followed it none the wiser.
You learn nothing from success alone, unless it is your job to do the exact same thing with the exact same steps for the rest of your life. An actual understanding of what you're doing on the other hand will take you further.
@cryrid Agreed on all. But still - failing is not necessary.
The first post negates community sharing, because according to it you are supposed to make all the mistakes artists before you made, rather than avoid them thanks to community.
Hmm Plyc, maybe you should re-read the first post then ?
Sometimes, the best help we can truly get and share is inspiration, simply showing , sharing and seeing what is possible. Honestly, what helped me most, besides screwing up a lot I mean, was simply seeing what was possible, getting a look at the wireframes... of course that made me shite myself, but it gave me a yardstick, the rest was up to me.
Kevin himself does post his stuff, shows his wireframes and explains his process. The point is not about 'negating community' ; It's just that, when someone posts a picture of an amazing mechanical piece, complete with wireframes and even a short explanation of how it was made, there is always a bunch of people asking for a "tutorial" on how it was made, explaining the process step by step, even tho all the information is there.
Instead of asking for it, they could just sit in front of their modeling app and figure it all out by themselves, since all the info and reference were indeed provided in the first place ...
Um...Kevin you just need to tell people that you, personally, don't have time/can't be bothered to help them. All of the rest of that stuff, IMO, is nonsense. I have yet to see any person that's "Successful" in this industry that hasn't received some major help whether they want to admit it or not or whether they want to berate the helping hand or the various things they've been taught or not. At the end of the day there's that baseline psychological edge of knowing that whether you fully understand something or not you have a working method that will allow you to complete the task at hand and that is what empowers you to take more risks down the road.
I'll tell you a short story (well maybe not that short, but I'll do my best) I'm an Eagle scout (many years ago) and as a young Boy Scout I used to go to scout camp every summer. The first thing scouts did after setting up the troop campsite was swim testing. All scout troops came in on the same day so taking the swim test amounted to being a huge spectacle with hundreds of loud screaming kids lined up around the inside and outside of the gated pool everywhere. Everybody hated it because there were always scheduling issues, leaders were always stressed and trying to rush kids through. I swam slow and after one year of having someone not let me finish my test forcing me to take an intermediate skill tag because of my slow speed I decided to start opting out of the swimming tests all together. I just accepted the "Non-Swimmer" tag to not have to deal with the craziness, but the problem was that they wouldn't allow you to re-test later in the week...so you were stuck with that tag. I knew a couple of other people that decided to do the same thing because they really couldn't swim or they there were one or more things within the test that they weren't comfortable with. One summer something a little strange happened with one particular friend that really did not know how swim well. He was uncomfortable treading in deep water, didn't use his arms to swim, and had bad breathing technique problems, which were all things that were keenly observed and scrutinized in the swimming test. There was a novice level scuba class in the middle of the week that I wanted to take, but couldn't because I didn't have a "Swimmer" tag and that sucked. I went with this friend and a couple of the others to the pool roughly around the time of the class just to try to get a look at the equipment and to try to see some of what was being taught, but we were swiftly turned around even from watching from the outside of the pool fence. We had other merit badge classes to go to and decided to come back after the scuba class when it would be a free swimming period to try to catch the scuba instructor or talk to the students or something. Here's where things started getting strange. When I got to the pool later in the day after my two classes my friend had already been there and was jubilant about having gotten his "Swimmer" tag instead of having the "Non-Swimmer" tag. Of course I wanted to know what happened and he was more than happy to tell me. He'd gotten there early between the end of the scuba class and the free swim period and he was able to catch the scuba instructor before he left. He probably asked about scuba diving, swimming etc., but also about tips for swimming because he wanted to be a better swimmer. Well, the guy did that and then some. The scuba instructor gave him a whole variety of tips most of which he didn't have to implement. The scuba instructor was able to help him improve his breathing technique and tested him. My friend tread water for a short time in 6 ft. of water when the test required everyone else to tread water for a much longer amount of time in 12 ft. of water, he had scuba fins to speed his swimming up, he swam probably a quarter of the distance required since he only swam the width of the pool a couple of times versus doing multiple complete laps around the pool the regular test required, he didn't use his arms and there was no one around so there was no stress added to the process.
Now I still look back at that and see the disparity of fairness there, BUT some other interesting things happened. After that event my friend participated/volunteered in a river safety event that required a scout to be a swimmer.(by your logic the dude should have probably drowned in the river.) He was much more confident in the pool in general and for the rest of the week spent a lot of time on swimming technique. He'd gotten significantly better than he was and had developed faster in those last couple of days than he had over the last couple of years during scout camp week. He knew that he had what he needed to just basically not drown, he got a bunch of pointers that may have seemed useless at the time, he got a softball test, a pat on the back and a cruise liner sized load of self-confidence. The whole point of me going through all of this is to:
A.) Highlight the fact that even the notion of help being counter-productive is just absurd. IMO not only is it absurd its dangerously irresponsible coming from a Senior Artist type such as your self. Apply this absurd idea to a different field like say medicine. Tell a med. school student to stop learning on the job during their residency/fellowship and just fumble around with some patients until they get it right and see how far that goes
and
B.) Say that I've personally witnessed multiple similar "personal help" scenarios like my scout camp story happen throughout my academic career and professionally within art/VFX circles. In fact I'd almost say it's more the standard than an exception.
The point is whether the advice, tips, encouragement turns into anything significant relies heavily on how the person receiving it processes the information, but in all cases when that person processes that extra info well consciously or unconsciously the results are always pretty damn good.
but you do need to make 'em...in your mistake you may just discover something that maybe useful in another situation. i know i have ...and im just a noob!
There's a big difference between seeing someone's work, trying to emulate it, getting stuck and asking for help, and just asking for all the steps. Lord knows the regulars here (including Kevin himself) have answered specific questions and addressed hang ups with workflow. The point is you're going to get a lot further and understand more of the intricacies of the process if you've attempted it a few times before you come asking for help. To someone offering help, there's a world of difference between 'I've baked my maps and I'm having problem X. I've tried A, B and C and it's still not working' and 'how do I make cool art like you? plz show all the steps'. One shows a sense of initiative and a willingness to learn, the other just shows laziness.
brilliant thread and i think most of what Kevin said is true for any creative field.
3d art is just a little hobby im trying to get into to for me my real thing is music and sound and almost everything said here is just as true to this field.
there is nothing wrong to mortal's way of thinking except that isn't suited to a creative field of work.
also i see way too many people not living while trying to work on projects creativity comes from life experience too.
if your stuck in a rut while working on a project there is no point just starring at it and banging your head on the desk, just get out for a bit with some friends and find a place you love and stay for a bit, than come back with fresh eyes or in my case fresh ears.
in the original post it's obvious that a nice guy has had enough of the same old questions and has every right to devote his time elsewhere. there are many others who do and can help.
this field is highly creative and highly technical, two things that just do not go well together imo. to be successfully creative you need no bounds, no restraints...but to be successfully technical you need set standards, established methodologies and rigid constraints...
almost every post on here is about technical information, not what should i make that would be awesome, but what process, methods are best to use for this type of art. because everyone does it thier own way, the lack of industry established methodologies and standards makes it almost impossible to help someone without a disclaimer.."well, this is how i do it, but..."
as a programmer i'm glad i have standards, it gives me a clear path to get my job done, the logic is mine, but the coding is the same as everyone else's, so anyone can pick it up.
I didn't read the whole original post because it was way too long and I already knew what he meant with the first few lines, but I've seen a few extra posts and I'm surprised many people is not understanding this the way the original post meant it.
The way I see it, what Kevin meant is that you can't just keep asking someone with experience how to do everything or what's the best way to do something, because that's that person's workflow, not yours. It's also usually based on experience and it doesn't mean it's absolutely true or it will be better for you.
Instead, just check out tutorials that explain the basics of whatever you have a problem with. You might even check some more detailed stuff and try it out, but just doing a step-by-step on how to tackle something that can be done in different ways (ie, a creative issue, not a technical issue).
Oh and btw great interview on the polycount news page, Kevin!
ha! I am actually required to find a mentor for a class so I can graduate. Someone who will, give feedback, and critiques of my work, possibly some pointers about Character modeling during my 10 week course. In the little experience I've had with character modeling in 3DSmax and even less in Zbrush I've found that just getting my hands dirty and messing with the program has taught me more than a teacher telling me how to do it. We as artists must develop our own style. Sure we can take tips and tricks but never adapt someone elses work flow and style as our own.
That's why I think that students that went to school get too lazy and keep asking. And people that learned by themselves are usually faster and better, because they did mistakes before, with experimentation, which made him better and go around with other solutions for one simple thing.
First off, I couldn't agree more with every point that Kevin made. Its an underlying truth that isn't spoken of enough, often because of ego & fear.
Secondly, I think there is more to this. Its not just enough to fail, but you must also OBSERVE those failures and try to learn from them in the context of WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO.
Definition of what you want to accomplish somewhere along the way is critical. I am not proposing that you need to know this from the outset. Few of us ever have a clue of exactly what we want to create from the get go, but we do need to establish standards and metrics for success as we move along so that we know when to stop.
It's what will ultimately shape and define us as artists, not the tools, mediums, or workflows we use.
There is a difference between Art and Design for a reason.
Art is subjective.
Design is Objective .
When we design, we do so to facilitate SPECIFIC GOALS, when we create Art we do so to communicate subjective emotions. The combination of the two is what allows us to do what we do for studios, audiences, & clients.
Understand yourself, your feelings on a subject, the technical standards required, and your audience.
You will learn about these things as you fail, its not a matter of getting it right the first time, but its a critical thing one must always be trying to gleam from their self observations.
Judge how well you have met that metric for success, that goal post you have set with your understanding of what is aesthetically appealing, and your knowledge of the aesthetic demands of your audience.
"Learn to make executive decisions, its what your getting paid to do" - Joe Pikop AKA stoofoo
There is a difference between Art and Design for a reason.
Art is subjective.
Design is Objective .
That's an oversimplification. Design lies between art and science. If design is objective to art's subjectivity, design is subjective to science's objectivity. Look at any given hardware product from Apple - they're famous for their emphasis on well-designed aesthetics and usability, but their work is very polarizing between fans and haters.
I had a realization about how to define successful design while I was in grad school - truly good design is always a balance between two opposing elements. Any number of scales apply:
order <> chaotic
science <> art
familiar <> unique
accessible <> innovative
understandable <> intriguing
The very best work finds a sweet spot in between. Something too far to the left is too objective to be good design: too boring, too predictable, too rigid to be engaging - it's too dull to hold someone's interest. Something too far to the right is too subjective in the same way: too exotic, too unfamiliar, too confusing or incomprehensible - it's too radical for someone to easily engage with it.
The very best bits of design give a user some common ground, a familiar starting point, and engage them with something challenging and different to elevate their experience. That part, the unique/art/intrigue component, is so subjective that the vast majority of modern design fails to be anything more than a forgettable rehash of what's gone before.
Personally I like helping others, because I learn new stuff that way myself. I enjoy cracking problems and coming up with creative ways to solve or circumvent them, so if somebody comes to me with a problem I know the answer to, I tell them. And if I don't know the answer, I try to find it and then tell them. Sometimes I don't even know I miss a feature in my program, until someone else asks me to find it (for example with my Instancer script...so easy and so handy...I don't even know why I hadn't thought of it myself, because I use it on a daily basis now...).
I know you don't learn to much, if someone tells you exactly what to do (well...you learn how to do as you're told...), but I don't really tell people where to put their vertices, but rather how to approach a given situation, or which tool has what functionality or obscure use...and then I hope they remember, when they face a similar problem...
Replies
I went from designing levels like this:
To this:
And from TF2 items like this:
To this (Which was actually put into TF2 by Valve a few months ago):
The progression of my skills from point A to point B in those examples wasn't reached by having someone explain to me how to model a hat step by step or the viewing of videos of 13 year old kids modeling on Youtube; It was reached by tons of experimentation and observations of workflow and technique of peoples work here on Polycount and the games I was basing my content off of.
Hopefully over the coming months I'll be able to progress my skills in ZBrush and high poly modeling through personal experiments rather than expecting that watching an Eat 3D DVD on ZBrush will make me an expert as I had thought it would be able to a few months ago.
Thanks again for the great post Kevin.
For me it is usually an effort of finding the best method for the circumstance. Most of the things I learn is an effort of trial and error, back and forth. A lot of the time things in reference materials (either docs, tutorials, videos, whatever) don't make any sense without a base sense of the things at hand. Which requires some experience. Many things are not learned in some building-block way but are assimilated in whole (language, for example). But because of the broad scope of those things, it is often necessary to go back and fill in the gaps (you know, re-reading a novel will often show more depth than the first time because you now have a broader understanding of what is going on).
I personally do like the idea of the community sharing as much information/techniques as possible. At the same time, I think that the best thing is to develop an appreciation for the learning process... utilize creativity to tackle problems. Someone mentioned earlier the scientific method. Great include! Someone else mentioned that the real point here is that learning to learn is the real goal. Yes!
I have also learned that the things that really stump me personally are things that seem to go unanswered in the forums. It may be that those people who are skilled/knowledgeable enough to answer my questions are already pre-occupied in some of their own projects--and likely don't have the time to even read my personal dilemmas. Let's face it... most of us don't have the time to wake up and say, "Gee... I'm going to go answer some random question today."
The very act of any of us participating in these kinds of threads says something about each of us.
In any event, I am happy to have found Polycount and enjoy the passion everyone has here for 3D! At all levels.
Also, from what I can tell, Kevin (among many others) already offer and contribute very much to the learning in this community. People need to realize that we're all just regular people still living regular lives. Add on top of that what I assume can be hectic work schedules at times, one guy can only offer so much. Give the guy a break already.
ps. I've pestered Kevin during work hours, but on the UDN. I was a licensee so we were kind of paying for that help in a way
It's hard to accept, but there's a whole lot of stuff that simply cannot be taught directly. It can be learned, and you can be given pointers and tips and procedures, but oftentimes it comes down to either doing it for you or letting you figure it out.
For example, someone can tell you what a warm and a cool color is, and there has been a dizzying amount of important material written about color theory, but you can't just explain to someone how to pick colors and have them instantly turn into Rembrandt.
It's a useful bit of perspective to pick up some more physical hobbies -- take dance lessons, or play tennis, or practice sculpting with clay. There are so many minute, one mm or one inch adjustments that go into any physical task and even if it were possible to explain them all, short of mind control you can't be shown every little detail. You have to grow and learn and develop on your own.
I don't think it is hard to accept that... it just takes a certain level of maturity. It's also easier if you have cultivated an enjoyment for discovery, challenges and learning. Which may be the point altogether; too often, people want to get to the end point too fast (because they don't understand the value of the journey).
You see, I knew this was an inspirational thread, and I read the whole thread leading up to a reply, I feel that the more people know the same thing, the more people are out there able to help each other without too much discrepancy.
I was warned for my activity in this thread, and really at first it wasn't necessary and I made some good points to counter some things which set me off, and Kevin's words were really good and meaningful, but it seemed like people who needed help were poop on a couple other people's shoes. So I acted in ways that made it necessary to tell me to think more before I talk.
I have a stick up for complex.
long story short, polycount's staff is really mature and I never have been spoken to so considerately by a forum staff. But then, I'm not usually around such intelligent and sincere communities as this one, they are rare.
I shouldn't try to explain it, but I should still pop in to thank kevin for his insights, and just urge all to, as a contrast to point, even when the question is so nooby, if you have the free time to look awesome for knowing the answer, please, look awesome for knowing the answer even if the question are so noob, because it's what makes great communities greater.
I took some things wrong, and I read too far into the comments of others perhaps, I just wanted to apologize to the people who knew where I was coming from, even when I didn't realize where I was going.
Thanks for a little time, it means a lot to me, and I wouldn't exploit people for their time, some of you are like my heros, so it's like spider man saying he won't save gwen.
Nobody has to go out of their way to put replies to me or forgive me out loud, but I hope that you can overlook this stuff from before, as I really really felt like half the people reading and replying didn't know the value of helping others and so it just looked like these motivational words found in the thread were being taken as a valid excuse to ignore people.
Sorry for any trouble, I know if anything for most people I was less trouble and more laughable, but I know from PM's some of you knew what I meant, and knew that I was taking it wrong. Sorry guys.
Keep counting poly.
"On why too much help stunts your growth"
not
"On why I'm never going to help you sorry slags ever again! Piss the f*ck off and die if you ever think you're getting anything from me ever again you sorry f*ckhtards! /tableflip /punch-to-the-nuts /spit-in-yer-eye"
Which I'm sure the first draft of that post probably looked like =P
Spiderman, thinks you can put your socks on just fine by yourself.
It might seem like the most crazy complex thing you've ever tried to do, but you'll figure it out. Because you did, you not only have socks on your feet, but you gained a skill that will help you put your pants on.
Spiderman doesn't need to help you with your pants now because you did the sock thing on your own. Now Spiderman has time to do things like watch his daughters grow up, talk to his wife, maybe take a dump in peace without someone pounding on the door yelling about socks...
Long post short: Don't dump in Spiderman's socks.
It also would be great if this turned out like some Before and After Thread, there is nothing more motivating than remembering that your heroes started from the same place that you did.
I quite agree that one has to make their own mistakes to learn--and I have a funny, stubborn way of going about that.
I have a tendency to be given advice (like when I was in school, on PC, etc), think I understand the advice but, for some insane reason, think I KNOW better, and then learn why I'm obviously not as smart as those that gave me the advice.
Example: When it comes to animating a scene, I was taught that you should always block out what you're going to do. Well, I thought to myself, that sounds ok, but really, I know where I'm going, let me just do it all as I go. And so I go ahead and animate a scene, working on each part as I go, with no end in sight. Needless to say, the animation turned into a HUGE, long mess and I poured a hell of a lot of time into a piece that probably won't be seeing the light of day again. If I had blocked it out to the end, I would of realized how ridiculous it was getting WAY sooner, and adjusted accordingly.
I was TOLD what was the best way to do something, but it wasn't until I experienced what was a bad way that I could value the advice.
I have heard of completely straight-aheading a scene and making it work. But I'm SURE it only works for animators that are well experienced in blocking out a scene as well.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, you can teach and give advice all you want, but it's not until someone has experienced other, usually worse, ways of doing something that they can value what has been said.
Ok, a bit of a ramble there, but call it mulling over the inspirational advice already posted here. Thanks for being awesome as always, PC
sometimes a little bit of knowledge (knowing what you dont know) is your worst enemy...
I started to learn 3d in isolation back in the 90s at my parents home (deepest darkest wales on a hillside 2 miles from the nearest village) with the occasional magazine article but no internet....i wasnt inhibited by others...and yes my art sucked big time for the most part, but i learnt how to experiment, i learnt the importance of trial and error, and of sometimes ignoring best practice temporarily for a broarder knowledge base befor applying best practice to what you now know, heck that often leads to new best practices. I think i still get the most enjoyment from this and has become one of my strengths.
I'll throw in my 2 cents and refer to what some old Italian guy once said...
"Although nature commences with reason and ends in experience it is necessary for us to do the opposite, that is to commence with experience and from this to proceed to investigate the reason."
-Leonardo da Vinci
And on a personal level...let me just be absolutely honest and say that, even after graduating from art school and getting my degree, and having majored in game art design...school barely taught me ANYTHING...in fact, I would go so far as to say it didn't teach me jack and shit.
What really got me to where I am today (Just now understanding most things concerning game asset creating) was my passion for this medium...for the process, for the art. So much so, that I have had relationships come and go, sprout and and then die, because I was way too involved with my computer... (sorry for the dramatics).
The truth is, if you want to have a chance to make it in this industry, don't expect to be spoon-fed at ALL. I'm not in the industry yet, but I've gathered that much since then.
Tutorials are great, video's are cool, but to focus on such specific aspects and styles of working etc is no good. By doing, you are experiencing, and that's the only way to go, folks.
"How would you approach making a turnip truck that was converted into a circus caravan for 47 years, then fell off a cliff and before hitting bottom it was then sucked into an alternate dimension and mixed with a manatee and spit back out into the game world which by the way is fairly stylized?"
If you say: "I would start by looking for a tutorial..." or "hold on I need to make call or a post..." or worse "you stare at a light fixture hoping they forgot they asked you a question" then you've lost it...
If your portfolio doesn't answer these types of questions and for some reason you land an interview, they will probably ask them... Which is another sign that your portfolio might not be sending the right message.
The questions you want to hear them ask you are:
"Do you want to hear about our benefits package?"
"Would you like to see where you will be sitting... err if you accept... I mean, IF you get the job?"
"How comfortable are you managing other artists?"
"Would you sign this, oh its nothing... it just gives us the right to detain you on these premises for the next seven years..."
funny that just the other day....
Took me back to learning 3D with only 15 minutes a week internet time.. makes you attack problems differently.
"Don't tell people how to live their lives, just tell them stories, and they'll figure out how the stories apply to them"
Same with tutorials, when I watch a video for instance I know I shouldn't watch them and mimic them in your work, but I do try them out and see if I can use them and implement them.
As said countless times on this thread, tutorials should be observed, not seen, and learn how to apply those neat little tricks you have on your workflow, both to speed your workflow and to make your art prettier.
But that sure was an inspiring post, and great read throughout the entire thread.
EDIT : This thread really made me rethink my professional life and personal growing as a professional artist.
Admittedly, Sometimes I see myself just forgetting how you do some stuff in texturing for instance, (Mainly due because I spent months without doing it) and I open a video tutorial to refresh my memory, and I can't help it but use exactly the same technics I see there in my work. That is partly because texturing still isn't a big part of my job, and I don't have a personal workflow established.
Doing things on your own is insanely important, you will rage, you will smack your head in your wacom, you will doubt of yourself, I know I do a little bit too often but I like to think that's what make us great and resilient, our passion.
Essentially, I'll answer the same question once or twice but after that I've lost faith in your ability to learn (fundamentally) and you are a lost cause to me.
This extends to almost all forums - 80% of the time its just the same questions repeated every 2 weeks.
If I and others can learn 3D and be good and get jobs with minimal guidance from human teachers then you should be able to as well.
For some reason, I was never able to follow tutorials, so I learnt everything by myself. It took me a long time (I've been doing 3D for a couple of years now and I still suck massively, but I'm understanding how get there
The best way to learn is by doing. Also, theoretical knowledge that is never applied or tested is useless and valueless.
It's better to learn from someone else's mistake than your own, but the burned hand teaches best. After that, advice about fire goes to the heart.
We need help, but 'too much' help definately stunts our growth because problems-solving is a must as a skill in this industry. How many times did you see something that looked quick and easy and it becomes a mess when you try to aproach it by yourself? and how many doubts and researches and tries and frustrations when you deal with a personal project or idea? Help is a good starting point but you'll need to get deep in your stuff by yourself because experience is not exchangeable.
It's like these elephants, they can only paint what they are trained for...
[ame]
Which is what would probably happen when someone who whines about not getting enough help would probably do when they realized they're just a patriot.
1. I want to make a rhino man
2. research rhino pictures for skin texture
3. research human anatomy, plan out the various muscle groups and how they will look on your creature, proportions etc.
4. gather anatomical references, anatomy tutorials, study other people, study yourself.
5. model the fucking thing
6. sculpt those fucking muscles
7. post on polycount "how's this shit looking?"
8. no reply, guess it should be worked on more, some guy posts about liking dicks lolol, well fine then, come back later after you go through the anatomy a second time.
9. when you have a more complete product, post again. maybe get one reply, some critique, maybe nothing at all.
10. go back and fucking finish the sculpt, paint it, unwrap it
11. learn from it and go make something new.
That's my workflow. That's what I'm doing, damn it, and I fail to see how it's a bad method or how I WON'T learn from doing it this way.
Just throwing my shit out there.
probably just a matter of finding the right balance. starting from total scratch without any example or instructions isn't very practical for many things. However just reading books (or watching videos) only all the time long doesn't get you anywhere either.
Have someone show you the basics by giving you a demo or quick run down, then go out try for yourself, fall on your nose, get up again, try again and ask for help if you're really totally stuck...
You're not going to get every problem right on the homework, but that's how you learn, and that's how you pass the test.
@cryrid I think we all agree that making others do our work for us, not progressing, and not learning from one's mistakes makes a bad artist. If this was what OP said it would be trivial.
Success can be a deceiving thing. One could model a car and think they were successful in creating it, unaware that having never tried alternative methods it actually took them 4 days longer to create than it could have. I can't help but think of an old code GamePro once ran for the SNES version of the Lion King. It originally included about 16-20 steps, though it later turned out only the last 2-3 were required. The rain dance equivalent of useless button combinations had no effect, yet the chime would still successfully ring after the final real steps leaving many who followed it none the wiser.
You learn nothing from success alone, unless it is your job to do the exact same thing with the exact same steps for the rest of your life. An actual understanding of what you're doing on the other hand will take you further.
The first post negates community sharing, because according to it you are supposed to make all the mistakes artists before you made, rather than avoid them thanks to community.
Kevin himself does post his stuff, shows his wireframes and explains his process. The point is not about 'negating community' ; It's just that, when someone posts a picture of an amazing mechanical piece, complete with wireframes and even a short explanation of how it was made, there is always a bunch of people asking for a "tutorial" on how it was made, explaining the process step by step, even tho all the information is there.
Instead of asking for it, they could just sit in front of their modeling app and figure it all out by themselves, since all the info and reference were indeed provided in the first place ...
I'll tell you a short story (well maybe not that short, but I'll do my best) I'm an Eagle scout (many years ago) and as a young Boy Scout I used to go to scout camp every summer. The first thing scouts did after setting up the troop campsite was swim testing. All scout troops came in on the same day so taking the swim test amounted to being a huge spectacle with hundreds of loud screaming kids lined up around the inside and outside of the gated pool everywhere. Everybody hated it because there were always scheduling issues, leaders were always stressed and trying to rush kids through. I swam slow and after one year of having someone not let me finish my test forcing me to take an intermediate skill tag because of my slow speed I decided to start opting out of the swimming tests all together. I just accepted the "Non-Swimmer" tag to not have to deal with the craziness, but the problem was that they wouldn't allow you to re-test later in the week...so you were stuck with that tag. I knew a couple of other people that decided to do the same thing because they really couldn't swim or they there were one or more things within the test that they weren't comfortable with. One summer something a little strange happened with one particular friend that really did not know how swim well. He was uncomfortable treading in deep water, didn't use his arms to swim, and had bad breathing technique problems, which were all things that were keenly observed and scrutinized in the swimming test. There was a novice level scuba class in the middle of the week that I wanted to take, but couldn't because I didn't have a "Swimmer" tag and that sucked. I went with this friend and a couple of the others to the pool roughly around the time of the class just to try to get a look at the equipment and to try to see some of what was being taught, but we were swiftly turned around even from watching from the outside of the pool fence. We had other merit badge classes to go to and decided to come back after the scuba class when it would be a free swimming period to try to catch the scuba instructor or talk to the students or something. Here's where things started getting strange. When I got to the pool later in the day after my two classes my friend had already been there and was jubilant about having gotten his "Swimmer" tag instead of having the "Non-Swimmer" tag. Of course I wanted to know what happened and he was more than happy to tell me. He'd gotten there early between the end of the scuba class and the free swim period and he was able to catch the scuba instructor before he left. He probably asked about scuba diving, swimming etc., but also about tips for swimming because he wanted to be a better swimmer. Well, the guy did that and then some. The scuba instructor gave him a whole variety of tips most of which he didn't have to implement. The scuba instructor was able to help him improve his breathing technique and tested him. My friend tread water for a short time in 6 ft. of water when the test required everyone else to tread water for a much longer amount of time in 12 ft. of water, he had scuba fins to speed his swimming up, he swam probably a quarter of the distance required since he only swam the width of the pool a couple of times versus doing multiple complete laps around the pool the regular test required, he didn't use his arms and there was no one around so there was no stress added to the process.
Now I still look back at that and see the disparity of fairness there, BUT some other interesting things happened. After that event my friend participated/volunteered in a river safety event that required a scout to be a swimmer.(by your logic the dude should have probably drowned in the river.) He was much more confident in the pool in general and for the rest of the week spent a lot of time on swimming technique. He'd gotten significantly better than he was and had developed faster in those last couple of days than he had over the last couple of years during scout camp week. He knew that he had what he needed to just basically not drown, he got a bunch of pointers that may have seemed useless at the time, he got a softball test, a pat on the back and a cruise liner sized load of self-confidence. The whole point of me going through all of this is to:
A.) Highlight the fact that even the notion of help being counter-productive is just absurd. IMO not only is it absurd its dangerously irresponsible coming from a Senior Artist type such as your self. Apply this absurd idea to a different field like say medicine. Tell a med. school student to stop learning on the job during their residency/fellowship and just fumble around with some patients until they get it right and see how far that goes
and
B.) Say that I've personally witnessed multiple similar "personal help" scenarios like my scout camp story happen throughout my academic career and professionally within art/VFX circles. In fact I'd almost say it's more the standard than an exception.
The point is whether the advice, tips, encouragement turns into anything significant relies heavily on how the person receiving it processes the information, but in all cases when that person processes that extra info well consciously or unconsciously the results are always pretty damn good.
And of course people should first try to find the info/workflow by themselves, and then nag someone like Kevin.
3d art is just a little hobby im trying to get into to for me my real thing is music and sound and almost everything said here is just as true to this field.
there is nothing wrong to mortal's way of thinking except that isn't suited to a creative field of work.
also i see way too many people not living while trying to work on projects creativity comes from life experience too.
if your stuck in a rut while working on a project there is no point just starring at it and banging your head on the desk, just get out for a bit with some friends and find a place you love and stay for a bit, than come back with fresh eyes or in my case fresh ears.
this field is highly creative and highly technical, two things that just do not go well together imo. to be successfully creative you need no bounds, no restraints...but to be successfully technical you need set standards, established methodologies and rigid constraints...
almost every post on here is about technical information, not what should i make that would be awesome, but what process, methods are best to use for this type of art. because everyone does it thier own way, the lack of industry established methodologies and standards makes it almost impossible to help someone without a disclaimer.."well, this is how i do it, but..."
as a programmer i'm glad i have standards, it gives me a clear path to get my job done, the logic is mine, but the coding is the same as everyone else's, so anyone can pick it up.
The way I see it, what Kevin meant is that you can't just keep asking someone with experience how to do everything or what's the best way to do something, because that's that person's workflow, not yours. It's also usually based on experience and it doesn't mean it's absolutely true or it will be better for you.
Instead, just check out tutorials that explain the basics of whatever you have a problem with. You might even check some more detailed stuff and try it out, but just doing a step-by-step on how to tackle something that can be done in different ways (ie, a creative issue, not a technical issue).
Oh and btw great interview on the polycount news page, Kevin!
Secondly, I think there is more to this. Its not just enough to fail, but you must also OBSERVE those failures and try to learn from them in the context of WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO.
Definition of what you want to accomplish somewhere along the way is critical. I am not proposing that you need to know this from the outset. Few of us ever have a clue of exactly what we want to create from the get go, but we do need to establish standards and metrics for success as we move along so that we know when to stop.
It's what will ultimately shape and define us as artists, not the tools, mediums, or workflows we use.
There is a difference between Art and Design for a reason.
Art is subjective.
Design is Objective .
When we design, we do so to facilitate SPECIFIC GOALS, when we create Art we do so to communicate subjective emotions. The combination of the two is what allows us to do what we do for studios, audiences, & clients.
Understand yourself, your feelings on a subject, the technical standards required, and your audience.
You will learn about these things as you fail, its not a matter of getting it right the first time, but its a critical thing one must always be trying to gleam from their self observations.
Judge how well you have met that metric for success, that goal post you have set with your understanding of what is aesthetically appealing, and your knowledge of the aesthetic demands of your audience.
That's an oversimplification. Design lies between art and science. If design is objective to art's subjectivity, design is subjective to science's objectivity. Look at any given hardware product from Apple - they're famous for their emphasis on well-designed aesthetics and usability, but their work is very polarizing between fans and haters.
I had a realization about how to define successful design while I was in grad school - truly good design is always a balance between two opposing elements. Any number of scales apply:
order <> chaotic
science <> art
familiar <> unique
accessible <> innovative
understandable <> intriguing
The very best work finds a sweet spot in between. Something too far to the left is too objective to be good design: too boring, too predictable, too rigid to be engaging - it's too dull to hold someone's interest. Something too far to the right is too subjective in the same way: too exotic, too unfamiliar, too confusing or incomprehensible - it's too radical for someone to easily engage with it.
The very best bits of design give a user some common ground, a familiar starting point, and engage them with something challenging and different to elevate their experience. That part, the unique/art/intrigue component, is so subjective that the vast majority of modern design fails to be anything more than a forgettable rehash of what's gone before.
However, please note the statement below that
They are always to some degree inseparable, discretely defined they exist as extremes; polarities of the creative spectrum.
However, I completely admit discreet definition of an ambiguous process is not honest nor does it due justice to the complexity of things.
I actually quite like these wallpapers, I think they act as a intriguing expression of the issue, but your point is well received, and very valid.
I also love your definition and the example scales given, well played sir.
I know you don't learn to much, if someone tells you exactly what to do (well...you learn how to do as you're told...), but I don't really tell people where to put their vertices, but rather how to approach a given situation, or which tool has what functionality or obscure use...and then I hope they remember, when they face a similar problem...