Really great post Kevin, very inspiring. It's reading posts like that, that instil confidence in me in my abilities as an aspiring 3D artist.
As a student I see a lot of my fellow students following tutorial after tutorial, following them exactly as they say and then say 'hey look, I made this!' and don't bother with improving it in their own way or experimenting with it and using different techniques.
I tried this at the start of my learning and I remember constantly feeling that whilst I was making good-looking art assets, there was a huge barrier in my way in terms of what I could do. Sure, I could model that tutorial barrel and box really well, but if somebody asked me to model a lamp post or a tractor, I wouldn't have a clue how to go about doing it.
So instead I decided to just jump in, grab shit loads of references and just experiment in Max and just make the thing.
It looked shit in comparison to the tutorial props I made.
But the sense of achievement I had was so much more than when I followed the tutorials. Ever since then, I've chosen to just look at other artists' work for inspiration and to see how their texture maps correspond to their models, and I have looked at other artists' workflows on areas where I need to, such as PhilipK's modularity techniques.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you need that passion to succeed... That drive to figure out how things work and how different techniques can be used in different situations.
That's just my view on the topic, I'm by no means an expert. I haven't even had a paid job working in the industry yet, I'm still just a student.
Edit - It's a shame that this topic has just turned into a bit of a mortalhuman fest. Though his posts do sum up what Kevin and others have said.
dude, mortalhuman. you come off as someone who is only here to exploit the knowledge of this community.
You don't want to be a PART of this community, you just want benefit from it.
You said earlier that the basis of this forum was "for others who have already done them wrong and learned the right way can clarify and save you headaches." So this entire thing is for you, or any one person? Thats absurd.
The basis of this community is art. Nothing else. This is not a help desk. it never has been.
If you show initiative, you will be given constructive feedback for you to build upon. End. of. story.
Robat, WRONG, I do NOT use people, but you would otherwise have a point if I did - I respect where you're coming from, but allow me to show you that I do not intend to use anyone, I intend to learn, and make places for others to learn.
Far from exploit.
Every topic is indexed to the serps.
EVERY topic is findable in google.
If a topic is started, it ought to be finished, it is not an act of exploit, it is an act of ADDING VALUE to the community and what it offers people who find it - so in effect, the exact opposite of your deduction about this.
No offense, I realize it might look like that, but you are not considering future readers and people who come looking for help. That's normal, most people have no idea how google works or the real value of forums "after the thread is off the front page..."
EACH time someone answers a question is another chance for 1000s of others in the future to learn. It is so valuable to all parties involved. We can build excellent search results - we should.
I can't help as much as say Kevin who has a million man hours more XP than me at this stuff, but provided these better artisans than I will help me, I promise I will dedicate to the furthering of others as well whenever I can
I still will.
And yes, I did misunderstand the topic at the beginning :P Sorry guys, you do make a lot of sense, the best example is: How many times can people ask how to make a rock? That's an easy one for google, you will find some polycount stuff in there too with the right strings used - but really, how will I ever make a UDK player model without taling about it with people who have :P
That's actually a big part of motivation for some of us
The beauty of helping indiscriminately is that THEN you can watch and see who adds their own twists - or just follows your words word for word - even if it's annoying, it still will help you to see who does take it the next level and who doesn't :P
For example, I plan to add LEGS to my FPS model, which you only see at certain angles (looking down while jumping etc) they will never be seen, just barely, once in a great while - but I didn't ask how to do that, I asked how to do existing stuff, so my efforts in adding legs will be the creative twist.
oh please, please stop with those .. for starters you need to actually show some progress that you have actually attempted to try. Post some examples of models and rigs and scripts that you have done! nobody is going to give advice on something just because you "want" it. go ask it on your own thread again, not try to use this one just because people are posting in it
Is that what you think this is? You are dense for that one, hoss, so I hope you're not really under that impression
I used an example that was brought up before I used it
What's your point?
Because the one you made does not apply and you must not have read enough of the topic or been capable of seeing responses for being more than just pitiful hijack attempts. I am not a hijacker, in any way shape or form, for this example used
Exaustive observation and understanding of the subject im modeling/texturing is the first thing i dobefore asking for advice. This was something i learned the hard way in the last years , and guess what ? it helped me improve my workflow and tackle problems i had before in a more creative way .
Either textures or a model, we just need to use google to investigate the type of material we want to do , and...just texture/model it until it looks like the real life counterpart, make it react to light as its real reference. What bothers me the most currently is that iv been seeing too many people just asking for tutorials, they sit on their asses because they saw something they liked and they want the tutorial, they dont even try it for themselves , and i think thats pretty dumb.
Also it makes me sad such a great thread , started by someone who i respect alot beeing polluted by an obvious 13 years old troll wich managed to derail the thread and taking everyone with him.
You make it sound like you wanna know the assets very essence, its being, its soul!!!!
If I make a rock I dont have to go live with rocks for 5 months before Im qualified to make one.
Just have fun, Kevins not saying a big 'Fuck You' but learning by mistakes is a major life lesson. Being told what to do all day everyday means you dont bother to know the reason why you are doing it in the first place.
sounds like you want a make awesome button, instead of putting in the hard work
Awesome first post kevin. Partly i wanted to disagree, because i'm still very much learning and it's hard to shake the feeling of entitlement to an easy way, but it seems spot on.
All the best artistic advice i've gotten with painting/drawing has been things that point me in the right direction, but don't provide me with a detailed map -- from polycounters' paintovers, to video tutorials, to help over instant msn, the most helpful is always precise but not specific advice. Hand-holding doesn't get you very far.
Interestingly, the same thing is very true in less creative, more physical ventures -- nobody can teach you how to perfectly throw a football or a punch, but they can teach you the mechanics and offer pointers on technique.
Are pages 2/3 just noob artists saying this is stupid and pro artists saying this is smart?
A friend noticed these postings, just said in chat.
There is a difference between learning from practice,
and not knowing WHAT to practice...
you need to know WHAT you're making before you can make it... there is no way around that and no solution but to ask in places where people know are at... where people who have DONE IT can ring in and give advice.
Not everyone works the same way, that's why people with experience are called upon. It is not a lot to ask, it is a forum after all.
So, this discussion doesn't even apply to me - I did research on my own and came up empty handed, it's like that every time I end up asking for help... the benefit to asking is that others will learn too. I don't ask people to walk me through steps of things, I just ask WHAT does an asset require, so, the thread doesn't even apply to me in the first place, it just seemed like it did at first.
I actually consider it quite unpolite that so many people think you give away teaching for free. time is very valuable resource, much more important than money e.g. I think. This is why i gave up my job at a shitty studio heh
Still the most effective method of learning stuff is learning from others face-to-face. Nothing beats that I think and sometimes it helps alot to get another point of view. Be it a technical problem or an art problem.
I agree 100% though that its the essential part of being a good artist to get your hands freakin dirty like crazy. Its all about the hours you put in thats what you get in the end. Its a really simple equation
anyway, this thread shows exactly why there are so many crappy levels with a stupid ass robot running around in the most over-rated piece of crap engine out there... This is NOT something you can just practice and learn, you cannot practice what you do not have base information on.
Don't mean to keep beating a dead horse but, it's not like you eventually know how to do everything perfect. I'm in the biz and I get challenged all the time, I can't break NDA and ask for help on polycount or waste the time of coworkers - you are expected to figure it out yourself. You also don't get constant feedback on your work, you get an assignment a deadline and the expectation that you will finish it without a bunch of hand holding.
anyway, this thread shows exactly why there are so many crappy levels with a stupid ass robot running around in the most over-rated piece of crap engine out there... This is NOT something you can just practice and learn, you cannot practice what you do not have base information on.
And this post shows exactly why there are so many talented individuals out there not willing to share their time or energy with people like you. Impossible.
A talented professional such as Kevin comes out to share his thoughts, and you spit a bunch of nonsense right back to not only him, but every artist out there that have a pair of balls and can handle a good critique.
Can we just get rid of this wee tit? He was fun for a while, he proved my point but now, hes just bothering everyone and he's gone too far I think. It's become impossible to have an adult debate in here as we're having to babysit some retarded trustfund kid.
Feeling like we suck and are holding ourselves back by trying to do things ourselves is hard. I felt that way, for a long time it just seemed like my notions about learning my own way might actually be retarded.
When I was doing 2d art purely, I tried doing things by hand, then I was taught to rely on photosource work at Reflections. Photosource work is a skill in its own right, it took me some time to get to grips with it, but I felt in the end that I missed out on the lessons I learned while doing it by hand.
So gradually switched, but I found I had learned some lessons I might not have otherwise, from the photosourcing days. It tends to work that way with whatever we try to learn, we don't often know for sure what we are learning or where it will come in useful, but we can be sure that we learned it, rather than imitated someone else who learned it.
Eventually that pays off, I'm sure of this.
I'm still not advocating that people need to go off and carve their own paintbrushes here, do please check out others work and tips, see whats on offer, but please, do experiment and never treat others workflow as gospel because everyone else you think knows what they are doing are just sitting in the dark cursing and crossing their fingers the same as you are.
Talon: please don't derail this thread, I really don't want to see this devolve into a thread of cats and stupid memes.
Mortal: right now you're the rebellious teen yelling at his parents "you don't understand me, you're just coming down on me!" when actually they have years of experience and are giving their son good advice.
Kevin: don't let the bad apples put you off, I followed your site religiously back in the Quake days and learned alot from it. I really appreciate that you take the time to share your experience with polycount.
Kevin; do you still run into hurdles with the work you're are producing? or does the technical side of things get a lot easier with time, where it is really just creating art now?
what do you want? Modders have been making their own viewport models since the days of Quake, there are massive amounts of information out there.
I'm an environment artist who's never made a gun in his life and I'm sure I could figure out how to do it but I'm currently messing around with recreating the Left 4 Dead post processing effects inside UDK. Yes, no tutorial exists that's called "recreating Left 4 Dead's post processing effects inside UDK" but Valve has an article explaining generally what they do and a bunch of information exists in the UDK documentation. I'm honestly thinking of making a tutorial called "How to figure stuff out on your own"
I'm still not advocating that people need to go off and carve their own paintbrushes here, do please check out others work and tips, see whats on offer, but please, do experiment and never treat others workflow as gospel because everyone else you think knows what they are doing are just sitting in the dark cursing and crossing their fingers the same as you are.
So true. I have been teaching myself zbrush lately. I have a ton of the tutorial dvds and I've watched them and picked up a few things here and there but developing a workflow for me and what will actually work in my day to day routines is only learned through trying things out and failing miserably.
My portfolio lacks a lot of things. I've had plenty of people point those out and now I am trying new things and failing all the time. It's a learning process and in the end I am picking up new techniques that do or do not work for me.
Little tid bits are great and I have picked these up from guys on here, dvds, just looking at other peoples work and just fiddling with things.
Mortal... you aren't going to just find the answers you want for every situation you could possibly want. I'm working on a UDK prototype and have worked on a few others in the past. It was me and a few other artists. Not one engineer.
I was able to fuck around with the code and a few other things on my own and get a working side scrolling camera, custom rig with animations that would transform from robot form to vehicle form and have projectiles shoot out from his hand (temp gun placement).
Some stuff like the rigging and anim set stuff I found online but it had to be adapted to fit my needs. The camera stuff was all just fucking around and seeing what worked in kismet first then in the custom game type i had made.
I asked a few friends for tid bits on things and some were able to point me in the right direction but no one held my damn hand and spoon fed me.
I just learned the shit, by failing over and over.
I spend quite a while on my own before I ever post a thread, I do not pull polygons or do anything like that without a plan, if you don't know the plan, you cannot act. Otherwise you act in ignorance, which is a waste of time.
Dude thats your problem right there. If you want to implement a FPS weapon model, you dont do :
research>make pretty model>put it in the game
But rather :
research>make crappy temp model in an hour or so>try putting it in>research more to understand what went wrong>edit temp model>try again>write down everything that went wrong and went well>post your problem on a forum where you've seen similar problems solved in the past>try again. Thats just the way things work.
As for the 'how to make a rock' threads, they are, indeed, useless. The answer is just to go get reference, practice drawing rock formations on paper and/or in photoshop to get a feel of the subject, THEN model a rock.
All right... lets re-rail this b!tch and get things rolling again... if that can even be done.
I don't think anyone can say anything to mortalhuman that will make him change his mind and I don't think anything he says will sway the opposition.
So we should probably drop it...
There are few of us (myself included) that have gone around in a few circles for a few pages and its just not being productive and not letting other people respond to the original post. Slow down, take a break, reset, reload and pour some of the rage on some art?
If you have something to add to the discussion in regard to the original post feel free to add your 2 bits?
This is just a suggestion, feel free to continue with the sh!t storm if that is really what everyone wants, just offering a chance to reset and rethink before ... the ... cats... show up and or someone locks the door and lights a match on this thread.
Doing the art actually becomes the easy part, the joke I share with my office mate Pat is that really, anyone can model something cool, but getting it processed right, anticipating how it will be used, lit, textured, making it modular, doing the lightmaps for each variant mesh... well thats the tough part, its always tiring.I think I spend on average maybe 30% of my time doing hipoly now, mostly its the lowpoly work where I have to put in more of the workload.
Perhaps you mean other technical problems though? Like the tools? If so, yeah that stuff gets really easy, you get to the point where you just know by instinct when max is going to crash, when the editor will hang, what action will cause an issue even though it should not.
And more to the point, because you've had everything go wrong so many times before in many different pressure moments, you know how to work around all the dumb stuff you or the engine or an application does wrong. I have to think about this even to explain it, its such an autopilot skill you build up, like when you try to tell someone your shortcut keys for an application and realize you have to place your fingers to remember so you can explain.
The fingers know what to do, the brain often doesn't. Everyone develops this skill and everyone gets to a high functioning level with their toolset, it certainly gets easier and at a certain point you fly high on the satisfaction that comes from simply mastering what you are doing.
And then you crash.
You get too used to your workflow that it becomes limiting and the biggest obstacle to your progression, you get a rut of comfort. This is where I am now and I'm hungry for the next project so I can change up and grow again. It took me many years to get to this point but now I am here and I have to give myself a shake again. I know what to do because I half remember hearing Pete and Kevin talking about changing up their techniques for no reason I heard them state and figured perhaps that this was what professional modelers did. They experiment, not because they have to, but because its useful to just shop around and see whats new.
Also, watching Pat model, he's fast and efficient and has a totally different method that is not as restrictive as mine. I've gone too far down the anal retentive route that I now need to pull back and try to be more loose and chaotic, not trying to perfect every little thing. Seeing someone elses method can really shock you out of your routine in a good way, I mean, he doesn't use edge constraints which initially made me wonder how the hell does he even manage to model because that is so central to how I work.
And no, I'm not going to go hiding because someone wants to spout off at me, I just feel bad for everyone else getting sidetracked for so long with that drama, I called it pretty early on why feelings were hurt there.
Matt Norton was my producer on Unreal Championship 2, he was brilliant. He used to say I shouldn't fight with a pig, I'm only going to get dirty and unlike me, the pig likes that. So ... nah, I don't worry when my daughters are upset they can't get candy either you know?
super happy cow : hahaha brilliant. The fact that you call it as a piece of shit means you will do great.
Also, tutorials can also be cool things to watch and ask yourself 'now how would I go about producing that?'. It doesn't always have to be imitation of technique as much as it does of style or philosophy.
All right, sure, I can agree with this; I haven't followed a tutorial in half a decade.
Where do you draw the line, though? Is a paintover too much help? You can follow one without understanding why it's better. Or a text critique? Those are usually in the form of problem+answer, because nobody tells you to have another look at something without telling you what's wrong. I can work by all the points of a criticism post just as I'd follow a tutorial. Where's the point where jumping in and telling people what's wrong gets harmful?
Ror's always set the bar for art, even during ye olde quake days. I'm sure he thinks his old skins are shit but I can remember aspiring to be at his level.
I remember when he posted how I was a promising up & comer in the skin scene - I got all butt hurt and sent him an email saying "how dare you! i've been making skins for 2 years now!" /facepalm
I find that trying to learn HLSL, scripting etc is a great example of falling down on your face and getting back up. Hell it took me a tonne of failures to get my edge detect shader running but in all those failures, I learned how to apply effect matricies, learned more about UDK's material editor and brushed up on math. Win win imo for a couple of banging my head on a wall
All the fantastic artists I've seen grow have always been the self motivational, not afraid of testing things, and definitely always running into that brick wall until it breaks down from several attempts.
It's very much the same in programming too, people test the hell out of things, stuff break, and mistakes are made, and in the end they've become much more flexible persons without any fear to try and learn new things.
Companies wants the kind of people who can solve problems, they don't want to babysit them.
We're almost an entire industry full of self taught people.
Additionally, knowing that the stuff you just made looks horrible and then having the willpower to improve it via brute force is a good receipt for success.
These were my first models back in 2001, Lodestone and Ironsides. I did these 2, unwrapped, textured and then didn't model again for a few more years heh. Pretty shitty models, i still kind of like what i was going for with the Lodestone textures though.
I'll dig around and find my first skin some other time. Nice to see we are all playing nice again btw
Justin: I really say that to you? Ach I guess it does kind of sound like me back then !
I think the fundamental difference is between learning how to do something and learning how to learn; it's all about problem solving skills. It's the root of what people mean when they say all the software is the same, that it's just a tool and a real artist will make are with whatever he's using. Those people will figure out how to best solve their problem with what they have on hand, not blame their limitations on the software.
What I get out of Kevin's post is that he wants us to learn to think for ourselves, learn to troubleshoot our own problems and conquer our own hurdles, because eventually we'll be able to do it without asking how. Learning is a skill, and one that doesn't develop if you're not forced to do it. There's a time and a place for questions and answers, but having everything spoon fed to you doesn't develop your ability to learn.
I always appreciated the motivation I got from your stuff during my A-level Art days, and you even gave me some dating advice once hah!
I remember being hurt once when you said my metal floor texture looked like a bunch of dolphins sort of arching out the water.. ooh dear. And it really did
Plenty of pages here, most of which I skipped. So I'll jump in and blindly say this:
A) I was fortunate enough to be raised during the Magic Schoolbus generation that had us taking chances, making mistakes, and getting messy. I think it's the best way to learn. A tutorial can show you how to make some edgeloops, but actually trying to rig and animate a character can give you much better insight into what works and what doesn't. I would go as far to say this is possibly one of the only positives to the $30k + game art schools, as they usually force you to get some bit of experience in a wider area of subjects.
Granted time can be a factor, and so a map/guide/documentation/whatever can still be a big help. But these things should be there for the artist to be able to help themselves. It's like when someone posts in the 'how do you model this' thread, and they only post the picture of what they want modeled instead of also posting their own attempts at it.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, giving help can be beneficial. Someone has a thread asking how to animate a book flipping, for example. Even if you don't know the answer, chances are if you set up your own test to try some of your ideas you might just come away learning something from it all. I've learned a fair bit just by trying to replicate people's problems and then help solve them.
I started learning CG back around 2000 or so and one of the things that attracted me to it was that it was such a challenge. There really weren't much in the way of tutorials unless you count help docs. So everything had to be learned from the ground up. It was a great feeling to finally figure out something like UV mapping for instance. But now by pointing people to tutorials and such I guess I'm depriving them of that same experience.
I enjoy helping others, and most of my posts are here in technical talk. Occasionally in the process of offering advice I've found myself learning at the same time especially if the problem isn't something that I've dealt with before. It seems so easy to just point someone on to a tutorial or script that will do what they want to do because these things are so commonplace and plentiful, but perhaps this is doing more harm than good.
Still it's hard to watch people suffering when you know the answers. I'm so confused about where to "draw the line". I guess it's better to "teach someone to fish" rather than "give them a fish" as someone mentioned earlier. So in that sense I suppose we as a community have to become better teachers if we wish to truly help others. But how do we teach problem solving skills in the context of making game art?
Now it seems everyone is just after a tutorial for this or that rather than sitting down and figuring things out for themselves, and it's kind of sad. This industry and art form is still in it's infancy and people should be experimenting, discovering new things, and having fun, not painting by numbers.
I do often wish i could freeze time or wish i had started learning this stuff earlier in life.
Tutorials are good for newcomers to have some kinda fondation (learning the software and some other technical stuff) but after that...er...what you guys said
^^^^ HAH Touche!! I didnt want to say it... but I thought it, only to see you type this on the second page!!
Read the whole thread.
Kevin: Golden words.
Actually I think looking back to the beginnings of my 3d I didnt do enough of this, instead always looking for help, tutorials, guidance, asking for 'tips and tricks' instead of just digging in and taking a crack at it.
I can pinpont in my progress where it absolutely took off as far as quality is concerned and that was because I threw all caution to the wind, started experimenting, making mistakes and trying again. This is the process of understanding in a nutshell.
To be brutally honest. Folio's born from 'Tips, Tricks and Shortcuts' method stick out like big hairy saggy dogs balls.
Thanks for the great reply man Its something I've always wondered, and have been meaning to ask somebody like yourself. Ill keep that all in mind while i progress! I'm sure things will be put into a better perspective once I make it into a game studio. Cant wait to see your future works. Keep pushing it to the next level :thumbup:
... You also don't get constant feedback on your work, you get an assignment a deadline and the expectation that you will finish it without a bunch of hand holding.
There is one thing I want to add to it though, as that is the thing that has helped me the most: Detatch yourself emotionally from your work, realize that critique is more useful than any tutorial. Also, maybe as a small carrot: Be grateful that people have taken time from their calendar to tell you at what exact points your work sucks. If everyone just smiles and nods, you will continue to make shitty stuff.
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Kevin's original post here.
Evidently I'm not at a skill level that I can speak with any authority on the subject of being an idolised expert, but I'm pretty certain I have the right mentality regarding learning 3D.
I can't count the number of people I've seen on forums and in university classes who, having a need to model a table, will ask specifically for a tutorial on modeling a table.
I give them a tutorial for modeling a chair and say "you can use the same techniques to model your table and, infact, anything else you care to make". You can pretty much tell then whether they'll get anywhere with 3D - some of them will go "oh, yeah, of course" and make the table, some of them will go "but I want a tutorial on making a table, I don't need to make a chair". The latter ones never progress.
Or inverting the diffuse texture to make a spec map because that tutorial told them to do so - not because they understand the maths behind it.
It's always extremely hard to get through to people that pretty much everyone who's good at this didn't learn it from tutorials. They just did it and saw where it broke and did it again.
People will always look for the shortest, easiest path. Those who are told it's a lot of work repeatedly and still re-offend... I've no sympathy for them.
At the same time, the lack of hand-holding approach kills those "former" group of people I was taking about. All over game art forums, you see threads for someone who's just starting out and it's clear they've got a grasp... but their art's just not there yet. At the same time, it's not too shit to give whitewash critiques and point them at resources for learning the foundations. And the thread drops off the page, no replies and the user is left thinking no one even likes it enough to comment and where they went wrong. I think we need some sort of intermediate hand-holding there - at least leave some words of encouragement.
Replies
As a student I see a lot of my fellow students following tutorial after tutorial, following them exactly as they say and then say 'hey look, I made this!' and don't bother with improving it in their own way or experimenting with it and using different techniques.
I tried this at the start of my learning and I remember constantly feeling that whilst I was making good-looking art assets, there was a huge barrier in my way in terms of what I could do. Sure, I could model that tutorial barrel and box really well, but if somebody asked me to model a lamp post or a tractor, I wouldn't have a clue how to go about doing it.
So instead I decided to just jump in, grab shit loads of references and just experiment in Max and just make the thing.
It looked shit in comparison to the tutorial props I made.
But the sense of achievement I had was so much more than when I followed the tutorials. Ever since then, I've chosen to just look at other artists' work for inspiration and to see how their texture maps correspond to their models, and I have looked at other artists' workflows on areas where I need to, such as PhilipK's modularity techniques.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you need that passion to succeed... That drive to figure out how things work and how different techniques can be used in different situations.
That's just my view on the topic, I'm by no means an expert. I haven't even had a paid job working in the industry yet, I'm still just a student.
Edit - It's a shame that this topic has just turned into a bit of a mortalhuman fest. Though his posts do sum up what Kevin and others have said.
You don't want to be a PART of this community, you just want benefit from it.
You said earlier that the basis of this forum was "for others who have already done them wrong and learned the right way can clarify and save you headaches." So this entire thing is for you, or any one person? Thats absurd.
The basis of this community is art. Nothing else. This is not a help desk. it never has been.
If you show initiative, you will be given constructive feedback for you to build upon. End. of. story.
Quit yer whining please, and do work.
Realistic Tropical Island from scratch
Far from exploit.
Every topic is indexed to the serps.
EVERY topic is findable in google.
If a topic is started, it ought to be finished, it is not an act of exploit, it is an act of ADDING VALUE to the community and what it offers people who find it - so in effect, the exact opposite of your deduction about this.
No offense, I realize it might look like that, but you are not considering future readers and people who come looking for help. That's normal, most people have no idea how google works or the real value of forums "after the thread is off the front page..."
EACH time someone answers a question is another chance for 1000s of others in the future to learn. It is so valuable to all parties involved. We can build excellent search results - we should.
I can't help as much as say Kevin who has a million man hours more XP than me at this stuff, but provided these better artisans than I will help me, I promise I will dedicate to the furthering of others as well whenever I can
I still will.
And yes, I did misunderstand the topic at the beginning :P Sorry guys, you do make a lot of sense, the best example is: How many times can people ask how to make a rock? That's an easy one for google, you will find some polycount stuff in there too with the right strings used - but really, how will I ever make a UDK player model without taling about it with people who have :P
That's actually a big part of motivation for some of us
The beauty of helping indiscriminately is that THEN you can watch and see who adds their own twists - or just follows your words word for word - even if it's annoying, it still will help you to see who does take it the next level and who doesn't :P
For example, I plan to add LEGS to my FPS model, which you only see at certain angles (looking down while jumping etc) they will never be seen, just barely, once in a great while - but I didn't ask how to do that, I asked how to do existing stuff, so my efforts in adding legs will be the creative twist.
(admit, legs would be awesome!)
I used an example that was brought up before I used it
What's your point?
Because the one you made does not apply and you must not have read enough of the topic or been capable of seeing responses for being more than just pitiful hijack attempts. I am not a hijacker, in any way shape or form, for this example used
...
:coolface:
Either textures or a model, we just need to use google to investigate the type of material we want to do , and...just texture/model it until it looks like the real life counterpart, make it react to light as its real reference. What bothers me the most currently is that iv been seeing too many people just asking for tutorials, they sit on their asses because they saw something they liked and they want the tutorial, they dont even try it for themselves , and i think thats pretty dumb.
Also it makes me sad such a great thread , started by someone who i respect alot beeing polluted by an obvious 13 years old troll wich managed to derail the thread and taking everyone with him.
And this is why nobody can take you seriously.
If I make a rock I dont have to go live with rocks for 5 months before Im qualified to make one.
Just have fun, Kevins not saying a big 'Fuck You' but learning by mistakes is a major life lesson. Being told what to do all day everyday means you dont bother to know the reason why you are doing it in the first place.
sounds like you want a make awesome button, instead of putting in the hard work
late reply. But cod controller is the only one worth making.
Awesome first post kevin. Partly i wanted to disagree, because i'm still very much learning and it's hard to shake the feeling of entitlement to an easy way, but it seems spot on.
All the best artistic advice i've gotten with painting/drawing has been things that point me in the right direction, but don't provide me with a detailed map -- from polycounters' paintovers, to video tutorials, to help over instant msn, the most helpful is always precise but not specific advice. Hand-holding doesn't get you very far.
Interestingly, the same thing is very true in less creative, more physical ventures -- nobody can teach you how to perfectly throw a football or a punch, but they can teach you the mechanics and offer pointers on technique.
Are pages 2/3 just noob artists saying this is stupid and pro artists saying this is smart?
There is a difference between learning from practice,
and not knowing WHAT to practice...
you need to know WHAT you're making before you can make it... there is no way around that and no solution but to ask in places where people know are at... where people who have DONE IT can ring in and give advice.
Not everyone works the same way, that's why people with experience are called upon. It is not a lot to ask, it is a forum after all.
So, this discussion doesn't even apply to me - I did research on my own and came up empty handed, it's like that every time I end up asking for help... the benefit to asking is that others will learn too. I don't ask people to walk me through steps of things, I just ask WHAT does an asset require, so, the thread doesn't even apply to me in the first place, it just seemed like it did at first.
I can totally understand you kevin.
I actually consider it quite unpolite that so many people think you give away teaching for free. time is very valuable resource, much more important than money e.g. I think. This is why i gave up my job at a shitty studio heh
Still the most effective method of learning stuff is learning from others face-to-face. Nothing beats that I think and sometimes it helps alot to get another point of view. Be it a technical problem or an art problem.
I agree 100% though that its the essential part of being a good artist to get your hands freakin dirty like crazy. Its all about the hours you put in thats what you get in the end. Its a really simple equation
all around a nice post!
http://wiki.polycount.com/
bam. now go make art, and practice and keep practicing, and quit making a mess of well written threads.
And this post shows exactly why there are so many talented individuals out there not willing to share their time or energy with people like you. Impossible.
A talented professional such as Kevin comes out to share his thoughts, and you spit a bunch of nonsense right back to not only him, but every artist out there that have a pair of balls and can handle a good critique.
Feeling like we suck and are holding ourselves back by trying to do things ourselves is hard. I felt that way, for a long time it just seemed like my notions about learning my own way might actually be retarded.
When I was doing 2d art purely, I tried doing things by hand, then I was taught to rely on photosource work at Reflections. Photosource work is a skill in its own right, it took me some time to get to grips with it, but I felt in the end that I missed out on the lessons I learned while doing it by hand.
So gradually switched, but I found I had learned some lessons I might not have otherwise, from the photosourcing days. It tends to work that way with whatever we try to learn, we don't often know for sure what we are learning or where it will come in useful, but we can be sure that we learned it, rather than imitated someone else who learned it.
Eventually that pays off, I'm sure of this.
I'm still not advocating that people need to go off and carve their own paintbrushes here, do please check out others work and tips, see whats on offer, but please, do experiment and never treat others workflow as gospel because everyone else you think knows what they are doing are just sitting in the dark cursing and crossing their fingers the same as you are.
I'll reply later when I'm not too tired to form proper sentences, but I agree fully with Kevin.
of COURSE you will never improve if ALL you can do is tutorials.
THERE EXISTS NO TUTORIAL FOR EVERYTHING SO YOU NEED TO ASK SOMETIMES
and people should strive to help others, not down them for it.
Link to the wiki herE?!? that wiki is pretty small and definitely has nothing about FPS player models.............
So, how else do I figure it out? guessing for ten years?! Yea right.
Bye.
Mortal: right now you're the rebellious teen yelling at his parents "you don't understand me, you're just coming down on me!" when actually they have years of experience and are giving their son good advice.
Kevin: don't let the bad apples put you off, I followed your site religiously back in the Quake days and learned alot from it. I really appreciate that you take the time to share your experience with polycount.
What more do you people want?
Yes, you need to do work on your own to benefit, grow, and become in full understanding of what you're doing...
But you CANT do that without even knowing what you want to do requires....
I'm an environment artist who's never made a gun in his life and I'm sure I could figure out how to do it but I'm currently messing around with recreating the Left 4 Dead post processing effects inside UDK. Yes, no tutorial exists that's called "recreating Left 4 Dead's post processing effects inside UDK" but Valve has an article explaining generally what they do and a bunch of information exists in the UDK documentation. I'm honestly thinking of making a tutorial called "How to figure stuff out on your own"
So true. I have been teaching myself zbrush lately. I have a ton of the tutorial dvds and I've watched them and picked up a few things here and there but developing a workflow for me and what will actually work in my day to day routines is only learned through trying things out and failing miserably.
My portfolio lacks a lot of things. I've had plenty of people point those out and now I am trying new things and failing all the time. It's a learning process and in the end I am picking up new techniques that do or do not work for me.
Little tid bits are great and I have picked these up from guys on here, dvds, just looking at other peoples work and just fiddling with things.
Thanks for a great thread topic Kevin.
I was able to fuck around with the code and a few other things on my own and get a working side scrolling camera, custom rig with animations that would transform from robot form to vehicle form and have projectiles shoot out from his hand (temp gun placement).
Some stuff like the rigging and anim set stuff I found online but it had to be adapted to fit my needs. The camera stuff was all just fucking around and seeing what worked in kismet first then in the custom game type i had made.
I asked a few friends for tid bits on things and some were able to point me in the right direction but no one held my damn hand and spoon fed me.
I just learned the shit, by failing over and over.
Fps player model: Make a 3d model. Put it into a fps perspective.
Dude thats your problem right there. If you want to implement a FPS weapon model, you dont do :
research>make pretty model>put it in the game
But rather :
research>make crappy temp model in an hour or so>try putting it in>research more to understand what went wrong>edit temp model>try again>write down everything that went wrong and went well>post your problem on a forum where you've seen similar problems solved in the past>try again. Thats just the way things work.
As for the 'how to make a rock' threads, they are, indeed, useless. The answer is just to go get reference, practice drawing rock formations on paper and/or in photoshop to get a feel of the subject, THEN model a rock.
Thanks for the thread Kevin.
All right... lets re-rail this b!tch and get things rolling again... if that can even be done.
I don't think anyone can say anything to mortalhuman that will make him change his mind and I don't think anything he says will sway the opposition.
So we should probably drop it...
There are few of us (myself included) that have gone around in a few circles for a few pages and its just not being productive and not letting other people respond to the original post. Slow down, take a break, reset, reload and pour some of the rage on some art?
If you have something to add to the discussion in regard to the original post feel free to add your 2 bits?
This is just a suggestion, feel free to continue with the sh!t storm if that is really what everyone wants, just offering a chance to reset and rethink before ... the ... cats... show up and or someone locks the door and lights a match on this thread.
Perhaps you mean other technical problems though? Like the tools? If so, yeah that stuff gets really easy, you get to the point where you just know by instinct when max is going to crash, when the editor will hang, what action will cause an issue even though it should not.
And more to the point, because you've had everything go wrong so many times before in many different pressure moments, you know how to work around all the dumb stuff you or the engine or an application does wrong. I have to think about this even to explain it, its such an autopilot skill you build up, like when you try to tell someone your shortcut keys for an application and realize you have to place your fingers to remember so you can explain.
The fingers know what to do, the brain often doesn't. Everyone develops this skill and everyone gets to a high functioning level with their toolset, it certainly gets easier and at a certain point you fly high on the satisfaction that comes from simply mastering what you are doing.
And then you crash.
You get too used to your workflow that it becomes limiting and the biggest obstacle to your progression, you get a rut of comfort. This is where I am now and I'm hungry for the next project so I can change up and grow again. It took me many years to get to this point but now I am here and I have to give myself a shake again. I know what to do because I half remember hearing Pete and Kevin talking about changing up their techniques for no reason I heard them state and figured perhaps that this was what professional modelers did. They experiment, not because they have to, but because its useful to just shop around and see whats new.
Also, watching Pat model, he's fast and efficient and has a totally different method that is not as restrictive as mine. I've gone too far down the anal retentive route that I now need to pull back and try to be more loose and chaotic, not trying to perfect every little thing. Seeing someone elses method can really shock you out of your routine in a good way, I mean, he doesn't use edge constraints which initially made me wonder how the hell does he even manage to model because that is so central to how I work.
And no, I'm not going to go hiding because someone wants to spout off at me, I just feel bad for everyone else getting sidetracked for so long with that drama, I called it pretty early on why feelings were hurt there.
Matt Norton was my producer on Unreal Championship 2, he was brilliant. He used to say I shouldn't fight with a pig, I'm only going to get dirty and unlike me, the pig likes that. So ... nah, I don't worry when my daughters are upset they can't get candy either you know?
Also, tutorials can also be cool things to watch and ask yourself 'now how would I go about producing that?'. It doesn't always have to be imitation of technique as much as it does of style or philosophy.
Where do you draw the line, though? Is a paintover too much help? You can follow one without understanding why it's better. Or a text critique? Those are usually in the form of problem+answer, because nobody tells you to have another look at something without telling you what's wrong. I can work by all the points of a criticism post just as I'd follow a tutorial. Where's the point where jumping in and telling people what's wrong gets harmful?
I remember when he posted how I was a promising up & comer in the skin scene - I got all butt hurt and sent him an email saying "how dare you! i've been making skins for 2 years now!" /facepalm
PS: And now I cant get enough of it lol.
It's very much the same in programming too, people test the hell out of things, stuff break, and mistakes are made, and in the end they've become much more flexible persons without any fear to try and learn new things.
Companies wants the kind of people who can solve problems, they don't want to babysit them.
We're almost an entire industry full of self taught people.
Additionally, knowing that the stuff you just made looks horrible and then having the willpower to improve it via brute force is a good receipt for success.
These were my first models back in 2001, Lodestone and Ironsides. I did these 2, unwrapped, textured and then didn't model again for a few more years heh. Pretty shitty models, i still kind of like what i was going for with the Lodestone textures though.
I'll dig around and find my first skin some other time. Nice to see we are all playing nice again btw
Justin: I really say that to you? Ach I guess it does kind of sound like me back then !
What I get out of Kevin's post is that he wants us to learn to think for ourselves, learn to troubleshoot our own problems and conquer our own hurdles, because eventually we'll be able to do it without asking how. Learning is a skill, and one that doesn't develop if you're not forced to do it. There's a time and a place for questions and answers, but having everything spoon fed to you doesn't develop your ability to learn.
I always appreciated the motivation I got from your stuff during my A-level Art days, and you even gave me some dating advice once hah!
I remember being hurt once when you said my metal floor texture looked like a bunch of dolphins sort of arching out the water.. ooh dear. And it really did
A) I was fortunate enough to be raised during the Magic Schoolbus generation that had us taking chances, making mistakes, and getting messy. I think it's the best way to learn. A tutorial can show you how to make some edgeloops, but actually trying to rig and animate a character can give you much better insight into what works and what doesn't. I would go as far to say this is possibly one of the only positives to the $30k + game art schools, as they usually force you to get some bit of experience in a wider area of subjects.
Granted time can be a factor, and so a map/guide/documentation/whatever can still be a big help. But these things should be there for the artist to be able to help themselves. It's like when someone posts in the 'how do you model this' thread, and they only post the picture of what they want modeled instead of also posting their own attempts at it.
I started learning CG back around 2000 or so and one of the things that attracted me to it was that it was such a challenge. There really weren't much in the way of tutorials unless you count help docs. So everything had to be learned from the ground up. It was a great feeling to finally figure out something like UV mapping for instance. But now by pointing people to tutorials and such I guess I'm depriving them of that same experience.
I enjoy helping others, and most of my posts are here in technical talk. Occasionally in the process of offering advice I've found myself learning at the same time especially if the problem isn't something that I've dealt with before. It seems so easy to just point someone on to a tutorial or script that will do what they want to do because these things are so commonplace and plentiful, but perhaps this is doing more harm than good.
Still it's hard to watch people suffering when you know the answers. I'm so confused about where to "draw the line". I guess it's better to "teach someone to fish" rather than "give them a fish" as someone mentioned earlier. So in that sense I suppose we as a community have to become better teachers if we wish to truly help others. But how do we teach problem solving skills in the context of making game art?
Now it seems everyone is just after a tutorial for this or that rather than sitting down and figuring things out for themselves, and it's kind of sad. This industry and art form is still in it's infancy and people should be experimenting, discovering new things, and having fun, not painting by numbers.
I do often wish i could freeze time or wish i had started learning this stuff earlier in life.
Tutorials are good for newcomers to have some kinda fondation (learning the software and some other technical stuff) but after that...er...what you guys said
:thumbup:
^^^^ HAH Touche!! I didnt want to say it... but I thought it, only to see you type this on the second page!!
Read the whole thread.
Kevin: Golden words.
Actually I think looking back to the beginnings of my 3d I didnt do enough of this, instead always looking for help, tutorials, guidance, asking for 'tips and tricks' instead of just digging in and taking a crack at it.
I can pinpont in my progress where it absolutely took off as far as quality is concerned and that was because I threw all caution to the wind, started experimenting, making mistakes and trying again. This is the process of understanding in a nutshell.
To be brutally honest. Folio's born from 'Tips, Tricks and Shortcuts' method stick out like big hairy saggy dogs balls.
Oh, you can hold my hand anytime. heheh.
There is one thing I want to add to it though, as that is the thing that has helped me the most: Detatch yourself emotionally from your work, realize that critique is more useful than any tutorial. Also, maybe as a small carrot: Be grateful that people have taken time from their calendar to tell you at what exact points your work sucks. If everyone just smiles and nods, you will continue to make shitty stuff.
Evidently I'm not at a skill level that I can speak with any authority on the subject of being an idolised expert, but I'm pretty certain I have the right mentality regarding learning 3D.
I can't count the number of people I've seen on forums and in university classes who, having a need to model a table, will ask specifically for a tutorial on modeling a table.
I give them a tutorial for modeling a chair and say "you can use the same techniques to model your table and, infact, anything else you care to make". You can pretty much tell then whether they'll get anywhere with 3D - some of them will go "oh, yeah, of course" and make the table, some of them will go "but I want a tutorial on making a table, I don't need to make a chair". The latter ones never progress.
Or inverting the diffuse texture to make a spec map because that tutorial told them to do so - not because they understand the maths behind it.
It's always extremely hard to get through to people that pretty much everyone who's good at this didn't learn it from tutorials. They just did it and saw where it broke and did it again.
People will always look for the shortest, easiest path. Those who are told it's a lot of work repeatedly and still re-offend... I've no sympathy for them.
At the same time, the lack of hand-holding approach kills those "former" group of people I was taking about. All over game art forums, you see threads for someone who's just starting out and it's clear they've got a grasp... but their art's just not there yet. At the same time, it's not too shit to give whitewash critiques and point them at resources for learning the foundations. And the thread drops off the page, no replies and the user is left thinking no one even likes it enough to comment and where they went wrong. I think we need some sort of intermediate hand-holding there - at least leave some words of encouragement.