Close, but not quite. I'm saying you own the right to control who can copy and distribute your works for the opportunity to make a profit from it. Some seem to be saying that a digital image of a 3D character, for example, is their personal private property. That's not the case. It has attached to it the right for you to chose whom may receive a copy of it, but it's not your property. However, you do own the copyright to it. Which in copyright law is your property. So what you do own is a monopoly on the expression of your idea.
So, when someone takes a copy or gives out a copy of your copyrighted work without your express permission, they aren't "stealing" it. What they are doing, is violating your copyrights. This is where the whole argument started. I was saying it's not stealing because copyright doesn't grant property rights to the work itself, but the right to copy it. So even though there is no theft in the legal sense that the courts care about, there is, nevertheless, a violation of your rights that you can seek reparations for. There, does that make sense now?
Sure, lets say you're 100% correct here, it still doesnt change the fact that copying/stealing/whatever you want to call is not only immoral, but also illegal. So you've gone on this entire semantical tirade just to prove what point, that the matter in question was shady, but for *very slightly* different reasons in the eyes of the law?
I dont see why the admins dont ban greevar yet. He is an obvious troll who benefits Polycount in no way shape or form as a community. If he wants to go have discussions on copyright law where he just says everyone in the world is wrong but him then he should do it somewhere else.
If you dont have anything of value to offer the community you belong on one of the other countless message boards where you can host your petty squabbles about silly things as outdated wording on copyright law.
Since you have started posting in this thread all you have done incite arguments with other members. You have done nothing but argue with almost everyone who would respond to you. Once you exhausted your convoluted DW5 argument instead of dropping it there you then deiced to go on another tirade on copyright law.
In your 4 days of being a Polycount member you have forced some extremely talented and well respected members of the community to put you on ignore. You have stated you are afraid you have gained a bad rep and wont be taken serious when posting art so you will most likely never post anything. Instead of stopping when you realized this you deiced to continue to argue with members of the community and ostracize yourself even more.
I honestly don't see why you willingly continue to be a member of this community. It benefits you in no way if you dont want help to improve your art and your connections with other great artists. And it benefits Polycount in no way to have just another argumentative troll roaming the General Forums.
You strike me as a high school kid with too much time on his hands and no understanding of when it is best to sometimes just drop an argument. You need to think long and hard why you want to be a part of this community. Is it to just argue over silly topics or to help yourself become a better artist.
Fred, I think you may have misunderstood what I said (Though, that info is always welcome) - I was referring more to having the forum bogged down with traffic and fixing those issues. Like last year PC got slammed because of the DW traffic. I didn't mean money as resources, I mean time and effort that could be better spent on the forum's own competition. Obviously, I'm not technically savvy - so I won't even pretend to be. I just remember some down time due to the increased traffic.
Regardless, if there's 'bad blood' or whatever between yourself and the admins here (as mentioned in the caution announcement you pointed out recently) I don't see why this forum would want to participate and put forth an effort - other than to make people happy that they get to have a certain logo on their character. Again, that's just my opinion, I'm not an admin - I'll be posting my work here with or without DW.
Edit> also, what the fuck - is this bullshit copyright argument still going on? He was going to sell people's work, without notice, after the fact. Stealing or not, it's a shitty thing to do and disrespectful to the art community. You can wrestle with semantics all you want and try to figure out when a baby actually becomes a living thing or you can call a spade a spade.
You need to think long and hard why you want to be a part of this community. Is it to just argue over silly topics or to help yourself become a better artist.
I know this one! It's the former right?
Also, on topic: Seeing all this drama and hearing about the last DW, I just wonder about how the first DW went down :0
From what I remember, the first (and maybe second) comps were just fun - a made up rivalry between two popular forums. But - the bigger it gets, the wider it spreads and people stop caring. There's less of a feeling of community and 'competitors' just appear out of the mist - never to be seen again. It's become way too serious over nothing.
Fred, I think you may have misunderstood what I said (Though, that info is always welcome) - I was referring more to having the forum bogged down with traffic and fixing those issues. Like last year PC got slammed because of the DW traffic. I didn't mean money as resources, I mean time and effort that could be better spent on the forum's own competition. Obviously, I'm not technically savvy - so I won't even pretend to be. I just remember some down time due to the increased traffic.
Regardless, if there's 'bad blood' or whatever between yourself and the admins here (as mentioned in the caution announcement you pointed out recently) I don't see why this forum would want to participate and put forth an effort - other than to make people happy that they get to have a certain logo on their character. Again, that's just my opinion, I'm not an admin - I'll be posting my work here with or without DW.
Oh, I understand. Polycount made a big impression in the pre-domwar challenge, not by quantity of entries, but quality. It showed everyone that the talent here is strong, and because of this, Polycount might get slammed hard with traffic during the Main event. You guys are the team to beat ... and to watch... at least with 3d.
As for bad blood, I can understand why. I am always late and my extension wims must be extremely annoying. Add to the fact that I am usually buried with emails, so in the past, I was unable to respond to all participating forum emails or offer any clue as to what was going on sometimes. On the plus side, I believe I am getting better at this as in DW5, I regularly email blast all forum admins all at once, several times a week so that never again, will they feel left in the dark. If one forum asks a good question to me personally, I then email blast all leaders with the answer.
Also, on topic: Seeing all this drama and hearing about the last DW, I just wonder about how the first DW went down :0
The first DW was quite intense. Actually, the rivalry was extremely strong, with artists going out of their way to visit another forum and bad talk each other. Those were the good ol days:) Although the rivalry is somewhat gone these days, and their are random artists popping in here and there to compete with a team they know nothing of, the community feeling of helping fellow artists on their team succeed, is still very strong.
Bad questions? They are responded to personally like with how they were asked, between me and the forum emailing me. When I say good questions, I mean questions that are important for everyone to know. For example, in the pre-war, forums got questions from their artists about the normal mapping rules and wanted to know if light baking was fine. A single forum emailed that question to me, and I emailed both the question and response back to everyone.
How does this sound JonathanF. If you don't want to do the contest, then don't do it. No one has a gun to your head. Adam has already stated that they are working on a Polycount contest which I assume will not run head to head against the DomWar. Imagine, if you so desired you may even be able to do both. Dare I dream? And if you don't want to do one or the other, my god, you just don't have to.
What FredH did was the tipping point of trust issues between him and this community. But you know for something that was boiling for so long I don't seem to remember anyone so publicly holding him accountable for his actions until now, just a bunch of low grumbles. This is something that has so many people upset and angry and frankly I can see why. And you know, everyone makes mistakes. It just happens that the ones Fred makes are on a much larger scale to us because like it or not he runs some of the most well known (although not always the most organized) contests our community has seen in recent years. I don't want to inflate his ego more but a terrible analogy is a celebrity getting a DUI and every news station covers it.
FredH, I appreciate what you have done over the years with DomWar and I don't want to see you fail. However, I won't deny that you've given yourself one hell of a black eye over this and I hope you really sit down and realize the reasons why people are upset and make strides to bring yourself back up in this community.
You are right, I made various mistakes up to now, the major ones being starting with large prizes in DWII, running UC, and ending with attempting to sell art packs in DWV. These were really dumb. I am already paying the price for my actions. GAMontreal has effectively been shut down since December 5th as I am too embarrassed to speak to any artists in person. Recent events will never get swept under the rug, I just hope that with time, things will get better. Right now, I just want to concentrate on making the best dw ever. One thing is for sure, there won't be any extensions this time around, unless I get hospitalized or something.
It was never suppose to be a moral question if an artist should want to participate in DW or not. It was just supposed to be a fun event where artists could relax in and make great art.
To be in the spotlight is not wanted or needed, as it has a terrible cost. Each time I write something in person, no matter how it is said, artists will interpret it as vain or wanting popularity and if I screw up, people will have a single target to aim at, me. This is why in all previous DW's, I never said anything about how they truly ran. I hid in the background, comfortable with just making a cool event for everyone. My sizzy ass 10 page resignation article on December 10th was my stellar intro into everyone's world. Went in and out with a bang, and now back in. Worse the the worst drama series on tv...
I hope this didn't sound like a martyr again. Anyways, yes, forced art packs and even posters, were a terrible idea.
Greevar: Dude, stop talking junk, go make a thread and fill it with your art. NOW. I pre-warned about spittle, buckteeth and duelling banjos and despite all that, you decided to make yourself at home by taking a dump in our common room and burn our banjos in a polycount shaped effigy to keep warm. Mother fuuuu*&$&^ my mom gave me that banjo. If you're thinking about stealing our women next, dude.......
Fredh: To be honest, a part of me is glad you've decided to drop the selling of artists artwork, how about dropping the 'donate now' part too? You said you were going to make an honest living to help cover costs?!
You fucked up, we all get that, even you get it. It might just be that you commited the 'unforgiveable sin' for some, but there are alot of artists who are probably on the cusp, or maybe aren't sure about whether or not to even be involved ever again.
Moving forward, IMO take one for the community, get that competition back up and running, without ANY excuses and execute it fucking flawlessly, its the best thing you could possibly do now that you've hired yourself back on to do this.
To FredH: I'd like to see you keep the donations link up, because there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for donations.
To Hazardous: As you and others berate FredH for acting like a martyr, you in fact have been acting like an uppity brat. He doesn't owe you anything. You don't own him anything either (unless of course you've been competing in and enjoying the competitions he's been throwing, in which case you owe him a thank you)
I would like to, but I am unable to drop the donations button. DW takes all my time from now until June 1st. Even if people hate seeing it, there are a few who donate a tiny bit. Right now, all tiny bits matter because I am not making any money from anywhere else, except those annoying 2 bucks a day google adds. I can change the button though to a paypal logo instead.
As for making an honest living, I will not be able to start this immediately. DW5 comes first.
DW5 will run as planned, with no drama or hazzles. Plus, there is one thing I didn't mention because I just thought of the idea tonight, there is now no need for extensions because, I intend to make DW5 a Soft Deadline:) With public voting in the works of getting installed, this means people can now submit late entries. They will loose votes like crazy for each day they are late, but at least they get to submit their work alongside everyone else. As for wildcards mentioned before, these wild cards will not be used for late entries. As for like/dislike or star system, this won't work with soft deadlines, so will keep the 1-5 vote "Lock in" system like it is now, but raise it to 7 perhaps. I never had the heart to DQ artists for not being able to finish on time, hence the extensions. A soft deadline, together with public voting, helps both artists and I at the same time.
Aesir: You're right, Fred doesnt owe me anything. Your also right that for taking part in 'his' challenges I owe him thanks for providing me a platform for doing so. You'll also find that if you check, I have thanked Fred on GA for my participation in 2 Comicon Challenges. But more importantly, have thanked the other artists that made the challenge.... a challenge.
Fast forward to now, where we all know 'the story' and artists react strongly, and your calling us the brats? You leave me with no choice:
Seriously man, you and me, we're fucking done professionally.
I think soft deadlines are a terrible idea for a contest this big. I know life gets in the way sometimes (believemedo I ever know) but if you can't finish in 2 MONTHS then not only is that just too damn bad, but the amount of votes you'll likely lose wouldn't be worth it anyway.
as for the rest of this thread, holy fuck people get over it already.
Some people will never be able to accept that they are wrong or have misinterpretedwhat they've read. It just ain't gonna happen and the more you try show reason they more they resist.
And some people may never be able to apologize enough and that blows but it's a part of life. We're on 14 pages here, oppinions are about as clear as they're gonna get.
Can you explain why it would be a bad idea? For the moment, I can't see a flaw with this plan. Artists who are more than a day late, have no chance of making it into their team's top pool. Plus, wildcards can not be used to push a late entry into the champs pool. DW, despite its war like name and rep as a tough challenge, should actually be viewed as an achievement challenge for pushing creativity. Blankslatejoe Began soft deadlines on GA and there were never any problems. The mods no longer had to feel like crap for DQ'ing artists or cause riots with extensions. Yes, soft deadlines in a war, is a big change, but so is public voting.
Benefits:
- Artists can submit late entries and feel a sense of accomplishment for a challenge that runs only once a year. If they miss the deadline, they don't have to wait a year to try again. They can submit up to 1 week late.
- Artists that submit work on time will not feel bad about late entries taking their chances for top spots in the finals.
- Artists that submit entries on time, look good and feel good.
- Chances are utterly eliminated that I will issue an extension.
Negative:
- Softdeadlines in a war?
- DW should be strict and by the book?
I think a soft deadline puts too much pressure on yourself to get the voting up and running straight away after the deadline, so to justify it being there. I would like to see DW run for 8 weeks (thats the usual 6 weeks and the usual 2 week extension) that gives people who work a good amount of time to get rolling and finish on time. No extensions, be strict, this dominace war has to run like clockwork and as professional as can be. by running it long from the outset you open it for more people to join and dont piss people off who burnt the midnight oil to do it to the original deadline.
If you really wanted to you could maybe give a 3 day soft deadline for hiccups and late entries but a warning that voting could start at anytime!
..................wheres Greevar? he must be sleeping
I'm not keen on the soft deadline idea either, sure the latecomers would lose voting time, but how many of us don’t find time in the first week that the results are up to vote anyway? In some cases voting can be a couple of hour job to do justice to all the incredible pieces on show.....pre war challenge was no exception I spent about 1/12 hrs looking through stuff....a soft deadline wouldn't penalise folks. If you had to run a soft deadline, then i think a percentage/numerical reduction of final votes depending on the lateness of the entry would be a fairer way to run it......however if you miss the first deadline what’s to say you would make the last one anyway
I'm putting my sword down. What needed to be said has been said. Dominance war is still the number 1 game art competition in the world. If you're a budding game artist, fucking do it, you know you want to, jump in and make something amazing, we're all anxiously waiting to see it and to congratulate you for your hard work. We apologize for things getting out of hand, the politics as of late have overshadowed what we're all here for, good game art.
To the regulars: What's done is done. I'm very optimistic about future polycount challenges, but lets give dominance war its due. They are entitled to what they've created, the biggest most awesome game art competition thus far. Should another competition come by and dethrone it, more power to them, it wont be easy.
Whatever happens, looking forward to competing and growing with you all at some point in the future. I'll leave you with the video I was watching that inspired me to write this post:
Thx fred for being so honest. I think you are doing a good job on getting back on your feet.
what i really would like to see in a future dominance war is a change of themes..
Every past one had most entries being Super-badass-robot-war-future-general-of-death
I would like to see something different and I think it would be a good idea to challenge artists out of their safety zone.
I understand that the brief leaves alot of freedom and there where some truly remarkably different entries, e.g. the owl (katzeimsack's entry if I am not mistaken) but most artists seem to steer in the same direction upon reading the brief.
Maybe something similar for character art? Not exactly the same since that would be pretty boring just some change of themes.
Lets face it. Every past dominance war entry could have been valid in pretty much every dominance war so far be it the first one or the last one. They are all very similar.
fred, i'm sorry, but this shit isn't rocket science.
you make a start date, you make a realistic finish date, you don't give extensions. if people don't finish within the timeline well tough shit to them. giving an extension for any reason other than someone fucking died, is a cop out, and it discredits the competition.
essentially it's a form of favoritism. you give an extension because you want to see some people finish. but what about everyone that managed to get it in on time?
to top it all off, you bullshit us with cost. something i refuse to believe. after researching, and emailing various online hosting services. unlimited space + bandwith is so cheap it's unbelievable, and when asked if they would impose any restrictions for having an extremely heavy load during a specific period per year (due to competition), none of them said it would be a problem if they were given prior notice.
so seriously, cut the bullshit. if you want to make a challenge, make one. if you don't, then don't. but stop saying "i really want to... but." cos you're coming off as a jackass.
I'm inclined to think if you had an absolutely strict deadline with no extensions, you'd get more people finishing on time. The problem in the past is that the closing date is always nebulous. If I remember rightly, every major competition has received at least some extension. Because there's always a high probability of the closing date been shifted an indefinite period into the future, I think this is likely to have the effect of people becoming lax in their planning, resulting in falling behind and failing to finish. With a date that is concrete the artist knows they absolutely have to get their work done by that point, so is encouraged to come up with a plan of action and stick to it strictly giving them the best possible chance of finishing on time.
fred, i'm sorry, but this shit isn't rocket science.
you make a start date, you make a realistic finish date, you don't give extensions. if people don't finish within the timeline well tough shit to them. giving an extension for any reason other than someone fucking died, is a cop out, and it discredits the competition.
MOTHERFUCKIN SUPERTRUTH RIGHT HERE!
I've been pissed since dom war 1 about all the goddamn extensions.
This is a competition. Treat it as one. Otherwise call it dominance war month and let everyone just do art, no prizes, no ranking, no nothing, no deadlines. Just an art month with a theme.
DW is a professional standard competition with an industry standard brief. There should be no extensions or exceptions. Dont get me wrong, I like an extension as much as anyone. But I don't like it when a competition isnt ran properely. And having a strict deadline is one of the most important things in the brief IMO.
Anyway. If people miss the brief they'll still have a cool piece of art and that should be the goal for anyone. Placing in the comp is a bonus.
I dont see why the admins dont ban greevar yet. He is an obvious troll who benefits Polycount in no way shape or form as a community. If he wants to go have discussions on copyright law where he just says everyone in the world is wrong but him then he should do it somewhere else.
If you dont have anything of value to offer the community you belong on one of the other countless message boards where you can host your petty squabbles about silly things as outdated wording on copyright law.
Since you have started posting in this thread all you have done incite arguments with other members. You have done nothing but argue with almost everyone who would respond to you. Once you exhausted your convoluted DW5 argument instead of dropping it there you then deiced to go on another tirade on copyright law.
In your 4 days of being a Polycount member you have forced some extremely talented and well respected members of the community to put you on ignore. You have stated you are afraid you have gained a bad rep and wont be taken serious when posting art so you will most likely never post anything. Instead of stopping when you realized this you deiced to continue to argue with members of the community and ostracize yourself even more.
I honestly don't see why you willingly continue to be a member of this community. It benefits you in no way if you dont want help to improve your art and your connections with other great artists. And it benefits Polycount in no way to have just another argumentative troll roaming the General Forums.
You strike me as a high school kid with too much time on his hands and no understanding of when it is best to sometimes just drop an argument. You need to think long and hard why you want to be a part of this community. Is it to just argue over silly topics or to help yourself become a better artist.
I admit, copyright is a hot-button issue with me. I have an unhealthy desire to get the truth out so that people understand where it came from and whom it really serves. I apologize for getting overzealous. I'm a sucker for troll bait myself and can't resist a debate on it. In fact, this whole debate has torn me away from doing my art at all. I violated the number one rule of persuading people on deeply emotional issues: Don't be a dick. I'm sorry if I pissed people off, that wasn't my goal. I'll keep my copyright debates on TechDirt where they belong.
So, this is me dropping the subject and getting back to the art.
I don't agree with soft deadlines. It's an art challenge competition. It needs specific and unchanging rules or it's just not worth it. If you played a game that's constantly changing rules, would you want to play it? No, you'd get frustrated and give up. I think that's the general opinion of everyone here. People get pissed when you're inconsistent.
From what I remember, the first (and maybe second) comps were just fun - a made up rivalry between two popular forums. But - the bigger it gets, the wider it spreads and people stop caring. There's less of a feeling of community and 'competitors' just appear out of the mist - never to be seen again. It's become way too serious over nothing.
I completely agree. Though I wasn't in the first, it was fun for the first couple of DWs as the smaller number of people meant you could really follow most of the competitors, and there was quite a feeling of community. With 12+ forums in and God knows how many people, it feels like a drop in the ocean. Though I've been looking forward to Dom War, I'd personally much rather it (or a similar competition) more like the first couple; with only 1-3 forums taking part.
First i want to say hi to all, coz im new: HIIIIIIIIIII
Last week I didnt even know what a DW is.... :P I have this thing (im sure its a sickness )... im not aware of many things thats going on in the world, hehe. But im gonna take part in vol V, thats for sure!
I dont care what people say about DW and the founder, coz ive no idea who he is and what he does and did in the past. For me its just a great challange. And honestly i hate an idea where people have to fight for prizes, coz theres always have to be a looser.... lots of loosers
But its not important. If u participate just to win, than u shouldnt even start.
The best thing about DW is that u gonna spend lots of time doing some fun and great stuff, another work u can put in your folio - for me the most important thing in the world these days.
So stop arguing about..... Ive no idea what actually.... and get to work u lasy asses
fred, i'm sorry, but this shit isn't rocket science.
you make a start date, you make a realistic finish date, you don't give extensions. if people don't finish within the timeline well tough shit to them. giving an extension for any reason other than someone fucking died, is a cop out, and it discredits the competition.
essentially it's a form of favoritism. you give an extension because you want to see some people finish. but what about everyone that managed to get it in on time?
to top it all off, you bullshit us with cost. something i refuse to believe. after researching, and emailing various online hosting services. unlimited space + bandwith is so cheap it's unbelievable, and when asked if they would impose any restrictions for having an extremely heavy load during a specific period per year (due to competition), none of them said it would be a problem if they were given prior notice.
so seriously, cut the bullshit. if you want to make a challenge, make one. if you don't, then don't. but stop saying "i really want to... but." cos you're coming off as a jackass.
Server cost is exactly 199.95 per month. It never fluctuates due to traffic. During dw4, I upgraded my server temporarily to 349.95 per month to insure my site and DW would not collapse. However, this is just the cost of the server. I write server costs when I ask for money not because I want to get rich and put extra money in my pockets. I write server costs because I prefer not to show the hard work that it required to run a challenge. The more I wine about costs or show the exact numbers, the less great DW looks.
Honestly, to make DW happen:
- Server costs $349.95/month x 5
- PHP Programming - $2,000 (I am not a programmer, I am only an html designer)
- Prizes Personal Cost + Shipping $10,000 (this is after sponsors reduction)
- Single full time Employee - Me. Salery? $0 for 5 months.
- Advertising - $1,000 profit, but it pays for above
- Google ads - $2/day profit, but it pays for above
- Donations - In DW4, $0. There was no donate button
almighty_gir - I don't think it looks nice to mention all my troubles for a simple donate button. Please look at the sponsors for DW4, its prizes, the complicated php system used, and the 50+ pages designed to make it work, including the pre-DW4 mini, and end-DW4 mini challenge. Then calculate the costs, and let me know what you come up with. Or, you can trust me when I say this - $45,000 [this is Minus, as in a major loss]. Lost Salery for 5 months, plus costs of DW.
1. look at better hosting solutions.
2. don't host something you can't afford.
3. don't make something more complicated than it needs to be. to quote an old business moniker i was tought many moons ago: KISS.
I completely agree. Though I wasn't in the first, it was fun for the first couple of DWs as the smaller number of people meant you could really follow most of the competitors, and there was quite a feeling of community. With 12+ forums in and God knows how many people, it feels like a drop in the ocean. Though I've been looking forward to Dom War, I'd personally much rather it (or a similar competition) more like the first couple; with only 1-3 forums taking part.
The only reason DW works, is because even though there are thousands of artists competing, the mechanics are still sound because each community has it's own support base for their competing artists. If there was a single forum running a challenge of this magnitude, with 1000's of threads being made, the community would be like a ghost town. There would be too many artists to give critiques to, so there'd be thousands of threads of just 1 post. Everyone would quickly loose inspiration, the event would get worse and worse. DW is special in this light. Artists are able to compete in teams, and get support and advice from their team members. Although in the end, your entry will be like a drop of water in a bucket, you will still have a chance to be your team's best, and you will have gotten plenty of help and recognition from your fellow members right up to the deadline.
1. look at better hosting solutions.
2. don't host something you can't afford.
3. don't make something more complicated than it needs to be. to quote an old business moniker i was tought many moons ago: KISS.
Keep It Simple, Stupid.
That is why there is no one else qualified to run DW. If I sold DW now, or handed it off to someone else, DW would be cut back so much, that it wouldn't even be recognizable. DW is not a lemon challenge that deserves to be cut down, or die. It deserves to keep its integrity. I must simply find a way to support it.
Thx fred for being so honest. I think you are doing a good job on getting back on your feet.
what i really would like to see in a future dominance war is a change of themes..
Every past one had most entries being Super-badass-robot-war-future-general-of-death
I would like to see something different and I think it would be a good idea to challenge artists out of their safety zone.
I understand that the brief leaves alot of freedom and there where some truly remarkably different entries, e.g. the owl (katzeimsack's entry if I am not mistaken) but most artists seem to steer in the same direction upon reading the brief.
Maybe something similar for character art? Not exactly the same since that would be pretty boring just some change of themes.
Lets face it. Every past dominance war entry could have been valid in pretty much every dominance war so far be it the first one or the last one. They are all very similar.
Cheers, Stefan
Yes, I understand. This is why DW5 is the final chapter to this specific storyline:) You are sooo right. All the challenges are a big blend. Need something fresh and new. So, going to go with a super conclusive topic for dw5, and then in the future... we will see. It's time to get creative.
Fred, if that was the case - why would you continue on with it? I mean, it must have taken more than just DW4 to put you in the hole - were you expecting to climb back out of it by doing the exact same thing over and over again?
There's no such thing as a selfless act - so what do you get out of it? Other than a few pats on the back and the chance to look at pretty art - which can be done without DW. Is it to gain from the new connections in the industry? To be well known for providing that service to the community? There's a difference between doing something nice and doing something foolish - I'm just not sure why you'd keep going just for shits and giggles. Everything you said you wan to do isn't going to fix the reoccurring costs of your programming team, maintenance and server costs - killing off your shipping and stuff will (though 10 grand on shipping seems ridiculous when I've mailed all of my belongings across the country and border for far FAR less...but I guess i need to take your word for it?)...but it still seems ridiculous, especially if it's just to have the attention of some up and coming artists to look at you and say you're "insane" - while experienced artists lose respect for you. What 'integrity'? Hasn't that been long lost with poor management and bad decisions about selling our work? Don't let your hubris get in the way of reason - Man - Even if you DO just love the competition...It's just a competition.
Again - I know nothing about hosting sites and anything related to that side...but I DO know that if something is putting me exponentially further in debt, I cut it out of my life.
I don't agree with soft deadlines. It's an art challenge competition. It needs specific and unchanging rules or it's just not worth it. If you played a game that's constantly changing rules, would you want to play it? No, you'd get frustrated and give up. I think that's the general opinion of everyone here. People get pissed when you're inconsistent.
Soft deadline will be a hard and strict rule. It won't change. People can read the rules at the very beginning of the challenge, and take note that if they get into the soft deadline duration, they are screwed, but at least they can finish. This soft deadline will not alter, and no extensions will be given.
The official deadline is May 2nd. So, voting would start between 24-48 hours after this mark. Why can it not start right away? Because I need to go through all the entries and make sure they are all properly in. Also, there are always many artists who can't access the system because of anti-virus software or because they didn't even know there was a system.
Guys, get used to it now, because this hard rule of a soft deadline, is soo going in:)
Fred, if that was the case - why would you continue on with it? I mean, it must have taken more than just DW4 to put you in the hole - were you expecting to climb back out of it by doing the exact same thing over and over again?
There's no such thing as a selfless act - so what do you get out of it? Other than a few pats on the back and the chance to look at pretty art - which can be done without DW. Is it to gain from the new connections in the industry? To be well known for providing that service to the community? There's a difference between doing something nice and doing something foolish - I'm just not sure why you'd keep going just for shits and giggles. Everything you said you wan to do isn't going to fix the reoccurring costs of your programming team, maintenance and server costs - killing off your shipping and stuff will (though 10 grand on shipping seems ridiculous when I've mailed all of my belongings across the country and border for far FAR less...but I guess i need to take your word for it?)...but it still seems ridiculous, especially if it's just to have the attention of some up and coming artists to look at you and say you're "insane" - while experienced artists lose respect for you. What 'integrity'? Hasn't that been long lost with poor management and bad decisions about selling our work? Don't let your hubris get in the way of reason - Man - Even if you DO just love the competition...It's just a competition.
Again - I know nothing about hosting sites and anything related to that side...but I DO know that if something is putting me exponentially further in debt, I cut it out of my life.
Sorry, $10,000 for prizes and shipping means, $9,500 for the cash prizes that I pay for, plus the $500+ to deliver them. DWIII was the worst. CGLand made some medalions and binders, and they were really heavy! Each time a prize had to be shipped outside Canada or US, it was $30-40
As for what I get out of it? A fun time and an opportunity to surpass my previous limits. Like I said again and again, Artists enjoying surpassing their limits with art, I enjoy it with art challenges. Rep counts for absolutely nothing. It doesn't give me a high paying job, and their is no need for contacts because I can do everything myself. People have the choice if they want to jump on the train and help out or not, because it's already moving and its stopping for no one. As for it being foolish, exactly. The more I reveal how much I do, the more foolish it all looks. Hence, I prefer to stay quiet and just enjoy doing it.
Glad DW is happening.
On the soft deadline thing. Judging by the initial reaction, no one likes the idea of the soft deadline, why not get rid of it? DW is a contest for the art community. The community wants a strict deadline instead of a soft one. Why not listen to the community?
I'm always pleasantly surprised by a week long extension on the end even if i think I'm done, gives me time to fine tune things. Dunno why you guys are so against possible extensions.
In my opinion competitions should be about getting the best art, not about meeting rigid dates (as long as the extension is a reasonable amount of time not over a month). This is game art after all... most deadlines are subject to change.
I'm always pleasantly surprised by a week long extension on the end even if i think I'm done, gives me time to fine tune things. Dunno why you guys are so against possible extensions.
In my opinion competitions should be about getting the best art, not about meeting rigid dates (as long as the extension is a reasonable amount of time not over a month). This is game art after all... most deadlines are subject to change.
because it's a competition. if people don't finish in time then they aren't worthy of winning. and we've seen people who only finished BECAUSE a deadline was stretched coming into the top 10.
i agree it's nice to put extra polish on a finished piece. but in the setting of a competition, extensions have no place, except to give unfair advantages to people who're too slow.
i tell you what, in the next olympics we'll give the 100 meter dash an extension of a further 100 meters... who'll win, the ones who prepared for the 100, or the ones who're naturally better over distance?
Soft deadlines is a compromise between strict deadline wanters, and for people who run into problems but still want to submit.
In a long running race in the Olympics, even the people who sprained their ankle along the way, want to cross the finish line. They have no chance of winning, and everyone probably already left, but for them, it's a personal achievement. They are proud that despite their pains, they were still able to make it and their 4 years of training has not gone to complete waste.
Late comers have almost no chance of winning depending on how late they are. It's not my intentions to make DW into a tough strict challenge that only appeases hard core artists. I must take into account everyone's endeavors to create something for this challenge and their struggles to achieve it.
Soft Deadline will be in the rules. Be prepared for it.
As for further questions, I believe I have answered all questions, even the embarrasing ones that reveal the process behind DW. I hope you don't mind, but this will be my final post on this topic. For further info, I can be emailed or pm'd on GA.
To everyone who enters DW5, good luck. You set the bar for 3d in the preWar, and now you'll be either crushed or show the world again that the black and green is truly the best community for game content creation on the globe. [cough GA too!]
Well if the competition starts 28th February and ends May 2nd, thats 9 weeks, do you even need a soft deadline in the first place? 9 weeks is more than ample time to get a character out. I almost want people who run over to get disqualified because thats a hell of alot of time to finish a character and you should not need anymore, unless the rules are giving us a crazy tri count. I like that theres no extensions but just a longer competition, I always liked hearing about the extensions but deep down Im like, 'fuck sake, every year this happens.' to me it just comes across as I need more time to sort stuff out in the background so you guys have a bit more time.
It sounds like you are your own worst enemy unfortunately though. Im with Gav, if hosting this competition was taking that much money out of me then I would be out straight away. Wouldnt care if it upset people, its just not feasable. If I couldnt come up with the money myself then I wouldnt rely on the kindness of others as I would feel like I would have to personally pay each one back, I cant take handouts. BUT, I would definetely think of starting out small again, taking it back a few steps so its just a fun competition.
Prizes look cool and will draw people in but nobody sets out to win, they just wanna make something awesome. Nobody has the awesome formula to make 1st place art in everything they do, and do I need a copy of zbrush when Ive been using it for the past 2 months to finish my entry already? hell no. I remember the big debate about comicon losing prizes and becoming low key. Losing prizes wasnt a big deal at all but the decision to call it the unofficial comicon challenge is what stung it, as it would have lost all credibility, thank god it was just called comicon again. It proves that you dont need prizes to entice people, look at the top ten and you can see it was a huge success in sense of artwork.
and the whole 'its going in so get used to it' shit is annoying as fuck.
You always have a choice, question is, how much are you willing to give away for a job
Lol, sorry, but your naivety as a German is showing. Americans don't have a functioning welfare system to fall back on if we aren't employed. If the choice is between a shitty contract but a monthly guaranteed salary, and unemployment which can easily equal starvation or homelessness, that's not much of a choice at all.
Don't act like you can speak for everyone. There is not always a choice, which is why many countries have had many people fight and die for workers rights, so that when all the money is in the hands of the few, they can't abuse people who weren't born into wealth and have to work for a living.
I think the ugly point about extensions is that I can't be asured there will be one. At least I wasn't aware that deadline extensions are more or less mandatory during pre dominance war (was my first try) So basicly you are working your ass of, reduce your sleep time, keep away from stuff that distracts you, in my case I even decided to not see my girlfriend which was a mistake in the first place but anyway (it was the last weekend before deadline).
SO basicly it sucks to sacrifice in the first place when in the end you know it wouldn't have been necessary. I would have finished in time but of course I used the extra time for more polishing which was nice.
I agree with others: Give a good amount of time such that even not so experienced artists and dudes with a shiot load of professional projects have a chance of finishing. But keep the deadline fixed. Most people know will know how much time they can spend during the next 9 weeks and the will know / should know if the can sacrifice enough time to complete.
If it's only about all the entrys that are missing the deadline by maybe a few days then I would suggest to allow those to submit after deadline but exclude them from any voting. Maybe in addition label those entrys as delayed but I think thats not a good idea as it gives a too negative impression upon the entry.
A soft deadline sounds shitty. The idea of punishing late entrys by missing some votes is not clear to me. Form what I understand I except the people who want to vote to wait until even the soft deadline will be reached and afterwards give their votes. Or at least doing it on the last day were voting is still possible. Because otherwise you might just miss the most badass entry.
Lol, sorry, but your naivety as a German is showing. Americans don't have a functioning welfare system to fall back on if we aren't employed. If the choice is between a shitty contract but a monthly guaranteed salary, and unemployment which can easily equal starvation or homelessness, that's not much of a choice at all.
Don't act like you can speak for everyone. There is not always a choice, which is why many countries have had many people fight and die for workers rights, so that when all the money is in the hands of the few, they can't abuse people who weren't born into wealth and have to work for a living.
and you chose to leave the country, maybe not for the welfare system but you had the choice to do something different, i don't say its an easy choice, or that i couldn't understand choosing the job, but it's not like you lived in north korea and had no choice at all
Do you know what the difference between an anecdote and data is?
I won the vagina lottery and was born white, and to a middle class family that made education a priority and had good enough credit to send me to a high-skill trade university. To try to imply every one of the 320 million Americans could up and leave to a country with welfare if they want to hard enough is laughable.
I got lucky enough to have a way out, plenty of people would like to and can't even move to another state, let alone country.
There are literally millions of americans that have no choice other than to have problems paying rent and buying enough food or to take shitty abusive jobs that don't pay enough to live off of without working 2-3 other jobs, and even then there are some that don't have any choice at all and just don't have work at all. You are ignorant of the situation for plenty of people, trying to apply your own situation to everyone elses. Not everyone has Hartz IV or a foreign spouse-visa cushion to fall on in hard times.
Unless you're implying that every person who signs a bad contract or takes a shitty job situation is a moron, but I'm sure even you aren't that arrogant.
if an american came to england, and didn't have a return ticket. they'd be refused entry unless they had a work visa.
if an american came to england, and had a return ticket, but not enough money ON THEM to make them look like they could reasonably sustain themselves, or if they could not prove that they could reasonably sustain themselves until their return date, they would be refused entry.
if an american came to england, had a return ticket, and funds, but no place of temporary residence arranged. they would be refused entry.
just upping sticks and leaving is a dream. the rarity of it actually happening is just mind boggling. even between two countries that have such "good relations" as america/uk. it's even harder the other way round.
the only place on earth that i can think of where it's "easy" is the EU, because the EU states that you can go pretty much anywhere in any country across any border that is within the EU, with little to no restriction. except of course that the EU has probably the largest veriety of languages of any other landmass, and dispite english being the second language for a lot, the necessity of speaking fluent native is a harsh enough deterrant for most people to just "up and move" within the EU.
Uh, isn't Fred Canadian? Kind of makes ranting about the US welfare system a bit pointless since it has little relevance to bitching about Fred or DomWar
Replies
Sure, lets say you're 100% correct here, it still doesnt change the fact that copying/stealing/whatever you want to call is not only immoral, but also illegal. So you've gone on this entire semantical tirade just to prove what point, that the matter in question was shady, but for *very slightly* different reasons in the eyes of the law?
If you dont have anything of value to offer the community you belong on one of the other countless message boards where you can host your petty squabbles about silly things as outdated wording on copyright law.
Since you have started posting in this thread all you have done incite arguments with other members. You have done nothing but argue with almost everyone who would respond to you. Once you exhausted your convoluted DW5 argument instead of dropping it there you then deiced to go on another tirade on copyright law.
In your 4 days of being a Polycount member you have forced some extremely talented and well respected members of the community to put you on ignore. You have stated you are afraid you have gained a bad rep and wont be taken serious when posting art so you will most likely never post anything. Instead of stopping when you realized this you deiced to continue to argue with members of the community and ostracize yourself even more.
I honestly don't see why you willingly continue to be a member of this community. It benefits you in no way if you dont want help to improve your art and your connections with other great artists. And it benefits Polycount in no way to have just another argumentative troll roaming the General Forums.
You strike me as a high school kid with too much time on his hands and no understanding of when it is best to sometimes just drop an argument. You need to think long and hard why you want to be a part of this community. Is it to just argue over silly topics or to help yourself become a better artist.
Regardless, if there's 'bad blood' or whatever between yourself and the admins here (as mentioned in the caution announcement you pointed out recently) I don't see why this forum would want to participate and put forth an effort - other than to make people happy that they get to have a certain logo on their character. Again, that's just my opinion, I'm not an admin - I'll be posting my work here with or without DW.
Edit> also, what the fuck - is this bullshit copyright argument still going on? He was going to sell people's work, without notice, after the fact. Stealing or not, it's a shitty thing to do and disrespectful to the art community. You can wrestle with semantics all you want and try to figure out when a baby actually becomes a living thing or you can call a spade a spade.
I know this one! It's the former right?
Also, on topic: Seeing all this drama and hearing about the last DW, I just wonder about how the first DW went down :0
Oh, I understand. Polycount made a big impression in the pre-domwar challenge, not by quantity of entries, but quality. It showed everyone that the talent here is strong, and because of this, Polycount might get slammed hard with traffic during the Main event. You guys are the team to beat ... and to watch... at least with 3d.
As for bad blood, I can understand why. I am always late and my extension wims must be extremely annoying. Add to the fact that I am usually buried with emails, so in the past, I was unable to respond to all participating forum emails or offer any clue as to what was going on sometimes. On the plus side, I believe I am getting better at this as in DW5, I regularly email blast all forum admins all at once, several times a week so that never again, will they feel left in the dark. If one forum asks a good question to me personally, I then email blast all leaders with the answer.
What happens to a bad question?
The first DW was quite intense. Actually, the rivalry was extremely strong, with artists going out of their way to visit another forum and bad talk each other. Those were the good ol days:) Although the rivalry is somewhat gone these days, and their are random artists popping in here and there to compete with a team they know nothing of, the community feeling of helping fellow artists on their team succeed, is still very strong.
Bad questions? They are responded to personally like with how they were asked, between me and the forum emailing me. When I say good questions, I mean questions that are important for everyone to know. For example, in the pre-war, forums got questions from their artists about the normal mapping rules and wanted to know if light baking was fine. A single forum emailed that question to me, and I emailed both the question and response back to everyone.
You are right, I made various mistakes up to now, the major ones being starting with large prizes in DWII, running UC, and ending with attempting to sell art packs in DWV. These were really dumb. I am already paying the price for my actions. GAMontreal has effectively been shut down since December 5th as I am too embarrassed to speak to any artists in person. Recent events will never get swept under the rug, I just hope that with time, things will get better. Right now, I just want to concentrate on making the best dw ever. One thing is for sure, there won't be any extensions this time around, unless I get hospitalized or something.
It was never suppose to be a moral question if an artist should want to participate in DW or not. It was just supposed to be a fun event where artists could relax in and make great art.
To be in the spotlight is not wanted or needed, as it has a terrible cost. Each time I write something in person, no matter how it is said, artists will interpret it as vain or wanting popularity and if I screw up, people will have a single target to aim at, me. This is why in all previous DW's, I never said anything about how they truly ran. I hid in the background, comfortable with just making a cool event for everyone. My sizzy ass 10 page resignation article on December 10th was my stellar intro into everyone's world. Went in and out with a bang, and now back in. Worse the the worst drama series on tv...
I hope this didn't sound like a martyr again. Anyways, yes, forced art packs and even posters, were a terrible idea.
+ infinity.
Greevar: Dude, stop talking junk, go make a thread and fill it with your art. NOW. I pre-warned about spittle, buckteeth and duelling banjos and despite all that, you decided to make yourself at home by taking a dump in our common room and burn our banjos in a polycount shaped effigy to keep warm. Mother fuuuu*&$&^ my mom gave me that banjo. If you're thinking about stealing our women next, dude.......
Fredh: To be honest, a part of me is glad you've decided to drop the selling of artists artwork, how about dropping the 'donate now' part too? You said you were going to make an honest living to help cover costs?!
You fucked up, we all get that, even you get it. It might just be that you commited the 'unforgiveable sin' for some, but there are alot of artists who are probably on the cusp, or maybe aren't sure about whether or not to even be involved ever again.
Moving forward, IMO take one for the community, get that competition back up and running, without ANY excuses and execute it fucking flawlessly, its the best thing you could possibly do now that you've hired yourself back on to do this.
Proove to us mens, that you are like iron.
To Hazardous: As you and others berate FredH for acting like a martyr, you in fact have been acting like an uppity brat. He doesn't owe you anything. You don't own him anything either (unless of course you've been competing in and enjoying the competitions he's been throwing, in which case you owe him a thank you)
Death over a cake.
As for making an honest living, I will not be able to start this immediately. DW5 comes first.
DW5 will run as planned, with no drama or hazzles. Plus, there is one thing I didn't mention because I just thought of the idea tonight, there is now no need for extensions because, I intend to make DW5 a Soft Deadline:) With public voting in the works of getting installed, this means people can now submit late entries. They will loose votes like crazy for each day they are late, but at least they get to submit their work alongside everyone else. As for wildcards mentioned before, these wild cards will not be used for late entries. As for like/dislike or star system, this won't work with soft deadlines, so will keep the 1-5 vote "Lock in" system like it is now, but raise it to 7 perhaps. I never had the heart to DQ artists for not being able to finish on time, hence the extensions. A soft deadline, together with public voting, helps both artists and I at the same time.
Aesir: You're right, Fred doesnt owe me anything. Your also right that for taking part in 'his' challenges I owe him thanks for providing me a platform for doing so. You'll also find that if you check, I have thanked Fred on GA for my participation in 2 Comicon Challenges. But more importantly, have thanked the other artists that made the challenge.... a challenge.
Fast forward to now, where we all know 'the story' and artists react strongly, and your calling us the brats? You leave me with no choice:
Seriously man, you and me, we're fucking done professionally.
Edit: ( So.... still on for beers next weekend? )
as for the rest of this thread, holy fuck people get over it already.
Some people will never be able to accept that they are wrong or have misinterpretedwhat they've read. It just ain't gonna happen and the more you try show reason they more they resist.
And some people may never be able to apologize enough and that blows but it's a part of life. We're on 14 pages here, oppinions are about as clear as they're gonna get.
Go make some art already.
Shit.
Benefits:
- Artists can submit late entries and feel a sense of accomplishment for a challenge that runs only once a year. If they miss the deadline, they don't have to wait a year to try again. They can submit up to 1 week late.
- Artists that submit work on time will not feel bad about late entries taking their chances for top spots in the finals.
- Artists that submit entries on time, look good and feel good.
- Chances are utterly eliminated that I will issue an extension.
Negative:
- Softdeadlines in a war?
- DW should be strict and by the book?
If you really wanted to you could maybe give a 3 day soft deadline for hiccups and late entries but a warning that voting could start at anytime!
..................wheres Greevar? he must be sleeping
If you had to run a soft deadline, then i think a percentage/numerical reduction of final votes depending on the lateness of the entry would be a fairer way to run it......however if you miss the first deadline what’s to say you would make the last one anyway
To the regulars: What's done is done. I'm very optimistic about future polycount challenges, but lets give dominance war its due. They are entitled to what they've created, the biggest most awesome game art competition thus far. Should another competition come by and dethrone it, more power to them, it wont be easy.
Whatever happens, looking forward to competing and growing with you all at some point in the future. I'll leave you with the video I was watching that inspired me to write this post:
[ame]
Edit: that was pretentious as shit: long story short as always, make art, kick ass
what i really would like to see in a future dominance war is a change of themes..
Every past one had most entries being Super-badass-robot-war-future-general-of-death
I would like to see something different and I think it would be a good idea to challenge artists out of their safety zone.
I understand that the brief leaves alot of freedom and there where some truly remarkably different entries, e.g. the owl (katzeimsack's entry if I am not mistaken) but most artists seem to steer in the same direction upon reading the brief.
I think one of the best gameart competitions was the environment movie competition.
http://events.game-artist.net/scene_from_a_movie/
The entries where truly remarkable.
Maybe something similar for character art? Not exactly the same since that would be pretty boring just some change of themes.
Lets face it. Every past dominance war entry could have been valid in pretty much every dominance war so far be it the first one or the last one. They are all very similar.
Cheers, Stefan
you make a start date, you make a realistic finish date, you don't give extensions. if people don't finish within the timeline well tough shit to them. giving an extension for any reason other than someone fucking died, is a cop out, and it discredits the competition.
essentially it's a form of favoritism. you give an extension because you want to see some people finish. but what about everyone that managed to get it in on time?
to top it all off, you bullshit us with cost. something i refuse to believe. after researching, and emailing various online hosting services. unlimited space + bandwith is so cheap it's unbelievable, and when asked if they would impose any restrictions for having an extremely heavy load during a specific period per year (due to competition), none of them said it would be a problem if they were given prior notice.
so seriously, cut the bullshit. if you want to make a challenge, make one. if you don't, then don't. but stop saying "i really want to... but." cos you're coming off as a jackass.
MOTHERFUCKIN SUPERTRUTH RIGHT HERE!
I've been pissed since dom war 1 about all the goddamn extensions.
This is a competition. Treat it as one. Otherwise call it dominance war month and let everyone just do art, no prizes, no ranking, no nothing, no deadlines. Just an art month with a theme.
DW is a professional standard competition with an industry standard brief. There should be no extensions or exceptions. Dont get me wrong, I like an extension as much as anyone. But I don't like it when a competition isnt ran properely. And having a strict deadline is one of the most important things in the brief IMO.
Anyway. If people miss the brief they'll still have a cool piece of art and that should be the goal for anyone. Placing in the comp is a bonus.
I admit, copyright is a hot-button issue with me. I have an unhealthy desire to get the truth out so that people understand where it came from and whom it really serves. I apologize for getting overzealous. I'm a sucker for troll bait myself and can't resist a debate on it. In fact, this whole debate has torn me away from doing my art at all. I violated the number one rule of persuading people on deeply emotional issues: Don't be a dick. I'm sorry if I pissed people off, that wasn't my goal. I'll keep my copyright debates on TechDirt where they belong.
So, this is me dropping the subject and getting back to the art.
I completely agree. Though I wasn't in the first, it was fun for the first couple of DWs as the smaller number of people meant you could really follow most of the competitors, and there was quite a feeling of community. With 12+ forums in and God knows how many people, it feels like a drop in the ocean. Though I've been looking forward to Dom War, I'd personally much rather it (or a similar competition) more like the first couple; with only 1-3 forums taking part.
Last week I didnt even know what a DW is.... :P I have this thing (im sure its a sickness
I dont care what people say about DW and the founder, coz ive no idea who he is and what he does and did in the past. For me its just a great challange. And honestly i hate an idea where people have to fight for prizes, coz theres always have to be a looser.... lots of loosers
But its not important. If u participate just to win, than u shouldnt even start.
The best thing about DW is that u gonna spend lots of time doing some fun and great stuff, another work u can put in your folio - for me the most important thing in the world these days.
So stop arguing about..... Ive no idea what actually.... and get to work u lasy asses
PS sry for my english if its bad
Server cost is exactly 199.95 per month. It never fluctuates due to traffic. During dw4, I upgraded my server temporarily to 349.95 per month to insure my site and DW would not collapse. However, this is just the cost of the server. I write server costs when I ask for money not because I want to get rich and put extra money in my pockets. I write server costs because I prefer not to show the hard work that it required to run a challenge. The more I wine about costs or show the exact numbers, the less great DW looks.
Honestly, to make DW happen:
- Server costs $349.95/month x 5
- PHP Programming - $2,000 (I am not a programmer, I am only an html designer)
- Prizes Personal Cost + Shipping $10,000 (this is after sponsors reduction)
- Single full time Employee - Me. Salery? $0 for 5 months.
- Advertising - $1,000 profit, but it pays for above
- Google ads - $2/day profit, but it pays for above
- Donations - In DW4, $0. There was no donate button
almighty_gir - I don't think it looks nice to mention all my troubles for a simple donate button. Please look at the sponsors for DW4, its prizes, the complicated php system used, and the 50+ pages designed to make it work, including the pre-DW4 mini, and end-DW4 mini challenge. Then calculate the costs, and let me know what you come up with. Or, you can trust me when I say this - $45,000 [this is Minus, as in a major loss]. Lost Salery for 5 months, plus costs of DW.
As for this statement, I already declared that I will run the challenge. It will happen.
2. don't host something you can't afford.
3. don't make something more complicated than it needs to be. to quote an old business moniker i was tought many moons ago: KISS.
Keep It Simple, Stupid.
The only reason DW works, is because even though there are thousands of artists competing, the mechanics are still sound because each community has it's own support base for their competing artists. If there was a single forum running a challenge of this magnitude, with 1000's of threads being made, the community would be like a ghost town. There would be too many artists to give critiques to, so there'd be thousands of threads of just 1 post. Everyone would quickly loose inspiration, the event would get worse and worse. DW is special in this light. Artists are able to compete in teams, and get support and advice from their team members. Although in the end, your entry will be like a drop of water in a bucket, you will still have a chance to be your team's best, and you will have gotten plenty of help and recognition from your fellow members right up to the deadline.
That is why there is no one else qualified to run DW. If I sold DW now, or handed it off to someone else, DW would be cut back so much, that it wouldn't even be recognizable. DW is not a lemon challenge that deserves to be cut down, or die. It deserves to keep its integrity. I must simply find a way to support it.
Yes, I understand. This is why DW5 is the final chapter to this specific storyline:) You are sooo right. All the challenges are a big blend. Need something fresh and new. So, going to go with a super conclusive topic for dw5, and then in the future... we will see. It's time to get creative.
There's no such thing as a selfless act - so what do you get out of it? Other than a few pats on the back and the chance to look at pretty art - which can be done without DW. Is it to gain from the new connections in the industry? To be well known for providing that service to the community? There's a difference between doing something nice and doing something foolish - I'm just not sure why you'd keep going just for shits and giggles. Everything you said you wan to do isn't going to fix the reoccurring costs of your programming team, maintenance and server costs - killing off your shipping and stuff will (though 10 grand on shipping seems ridiculous when I've mailed all of my belongings across the country and border for far FAR less...but I guess i need to take your word for it?)...but it still seems ridiculous, especially if it's just to have the attention of some up and coming artists to look at you and say you're "insane" - while experienced artists lose respect for you. What 'integrity'? Hasn't that been long lost with poor management and bad decisions about selling our work? Don't let your hubris get in the way of reason - Man - Even if you DO just love the competition...It's just a competition.
Again - I know nothing about hosting sites and anything related to that side...but I DO know that if something is putting me exponentially further in debt, I cut it out of my life.
Soft deadline will be a hard and strict rule. It won't change. People can read the rules at the very beginning of the challenge, and take note that if they get into the soft deadline duration, they are screwed, but at least they can finish. This soft deadline will not alter, and no extensions will be given.
The official deadline is May 2nd. So, voting would start between 24-48 hours after this mark. Why can it not start right away? Because I need to go through all the entries and make sure they are all properly in. Also, there are always many artists who can't access the system because of anti-virus software or because they didn't even know there was a system.
Guys, get used to it now, because this hard rule of a soft deadline, is soo going in:)
Sorry, $10,000 for prizes and shipping means, $9,500 for the cash prizes that I pay for, plus the $500+ to deliver them. DWIII was the worst. CGLand made some medalions and binders, and they were really heavy! Each time a prize had to be shipped outside Canada or US, it was $30-40
As for what I get out of it? A fun time and an opportunity to surpass my previous limits. Like I said again and again, Artists enjoying surpassing their limits with art, I enjoy it with art challenges. Rep counts for absolutely nothing. It doesn't give me a high paying job, and their is no need for contacts because I can do everything myself. People have the choice if they want to jump on the train and help out or not, because it's already moving and its stopping for no one. As for it being foolish, exactly. The more I reveal how much I do, the more foolish it all looks. Hence, I prefer to stay quiet and just enjoy doing it.
Glad DW is happening.
On the soft deadline thing. Judging by the initial reaction, no one likes the idea of the soft deadline, why not get rid of it? DW is a contest for the art community. The community wants a strict deadline instead of a soft one. Why not listen to the community?
In my opinion competitions should be about getting the best art, not about meeting rigid dates (as long as the extension is a reasonable amount of time not over a month). This is game art after all... most deadlines are subject to change.
because it's a competition. if people don't finish in time then they aren't worthy of winning. and we've seen people who only finished BECAUSE a deadline was stretched coming into the top 10.
i agree it's nice to put extra polish on a finished piece. but in the setting of a competition, extensions have no place, except to give unfair advantages to people who're too slow.
i tell you what, in the next olympics we'll give the 100 meter dash an extension of a further 100 meters... who'll win, the ones who prepared for the 100, or the ones who're naturally better over distance?
In a long running race in the Olympics, even the people who sprained their ankle along the way, want to cross the finish line. They have no chance of winning, and everyone probably already left, but for them, it's a personal achievement. They are proud that despite their pains, they were still able to make it and their 4 years of training has not gone to complete waste.
Late comers have almost no chance of winning depending on how late they are. It's not my intentions to make DW into a tough strict challenge that only appeases hard core artists. I must take into account everyone's endeavors to create something for this challenge and their struggles to achieve it.
Soft Deadline will be in the rules. Be prepared for it.
As for further questions, I believe I have answered all questions, even the embarrasing ones that reveal the process behind DW. I hope you don't mind, but this will be my final post on this topic. For further info, I can be emailed or pm'd on GA.
To everyone who enters DW5, good luck. You set the bar for 3d in the preWar, and now you'll be either crushed or show the world again that the black and green is truly the best community for game content creation on the globe. [cough GA too!]
Cheers
Well if the competition starts 28th February and ends May 2nd, thats 9 weeks, do you even need a soft deadline in the first place? 9 weeks is more than ample time to get a character out. I almost want people who run over to get disqualified because thats a hell of alot of time to finish a character and you should not need anymore, unless the rules are giving us a crazy tri count. I like that theres no extensions but just a longer competition, I always liked hearing about the extensions but deep down Im like, 'fuck sake, every year this happens.' to me it just comes across as I need more time to sort stuff out in the background so you guys have a bit more time.
It sounds like you are your own worst enemy unfortunately though. Im with Gav, if hosting this competition was taking that much money out of me then I would be out straight away. Wouldnt care if it upset people, its just not feasable. If I couldnt come up with the money myself then I wouldnt rely on the kindness of others as I would feel like I would have to personally pay each one back, I cant take handouts. BUT, I would definetely think of starting out small again, taking it back a few steps so its just a fun competition.
Prizes look cool and will draw people in but nobody sets out to win, they just wanna make something awesome. Nobody has the awesome formula to make 1st place art in everything they do, and do I need a copy of zbrush when Ive been using it for the past 2 months to finish my entry already? hell no. I remember the big debate about comicon losing prizes and becoming low key. Losing prizes wasnt a big deal at all but the decision to call it the unofficial comicon challenge is what stung it, as it would have lost all credibility, thank god it was just called comicon again. It proves that you dont need prizes to entice people, look at the top ten and you can see it was a huge success in sense of artwork.
and the whole 'its going in so get used to it' shit is annoying as fuck.
Lol, sorry, but your naivety as a German is showing. Americans don't have a functioning welfare system to fall back on if we aren't employed. If the choice is between a shitty contract but a monthly guaranteed salary, and unemployment which can easily equal starvation or homelessness, that's not much of a choice at all.
Don't act like you can speak for everyone. There is not always a choice, which is why many countries have had many people fight and die for workers rights, so that when all the money is in the hands of the few, they can't abuse people who weren't born into wealth and have to work for a living.
SO basicly it sucks to sacrifice in the first place when in the end you know it wouldn't have been necessary. I would have finished in time but of course I used the extra time for more polishing which was nice.
I agree with others: Give a good amount of time such that even not so experienced artists and dudes with a shiot load of professional projects have a chance of finishing. But keep the deadline fixed. Most people know will know how much time they can spend during the next 9 weeks and the will know / should know if the can sacrifice enough time to complete.
If it's only about all the entrys that are missing the deadline by maybe a few days then I would suggest to allow those to submit after deadline but exclude them from any voting. Maybe in addition label those entrys as delayed but I think thats not a good idea as it gives a too negative impression upon the entry.
A soft deadline sounds shitty. The idea of punishing late entrys by missing some votes is not clear to me. Form what I understand I except the people who want to vote to wait until even the soft deadline will be reached and afterwards give their votes. Or at least doing it on the last day were voting is still possible. Because otherwise you might just miss the most badass entry.
[ame]
NSFW version (contains cawk)
http://youblowthis.ytmnd.com/
Public voting, I'm not a huge fan of.
and you chose to leave the country, maybe not for the welfare system but you had the choice to do something different, i don't say its an easy choice, or that i couldn't understand choosing the job, but it's not like you lived in north korea and had no choice at all
but yeah possibly its a luxury issue
I won the vagina lottery and was born white, and to a middle class family that made education a priority and had good enough credit to send me to a high-skill trade university. To try to imply every one of the 320 million Americans could up and leave to a country with welfare if they want to hard enough is laughable.
I got lucky enough to have a way out, plenty of people would like to and can't even move to another state, let alone country.
There are literally millions of americans that have no choice other than to have problems paying rent and buying enough food or to take shitty abusive jobs that don't pay enough to live off of without working 2-3 other jobs, and even then there are some that don't have any choice at all and just don't have work at all. You are ignorant of the situation for plenty of people, trying to apply your own situation to everyone elses. Not everyone has Hartz IV or a foreign spouse-visa cushion to fall on in hard times.
Unless you're implying that every person who signs a bad contract or takes a shitty job situation is a moron, but I'm sure even you aren't that arrogant.
if an american came to england, and didn't have a return ticket. they'd be refused entry unless they had a work visa.
if an american came to england, and had a return ticket, but not enough money ON THEM to make them look like they could reasonably sustain themselves, or if they could not prove that they could reasonably sustain themselves until their return date, they would be refused entry.
if an american came to england, had a return ticket, and funds, but no place of temporary residence arranged. they would be refused entry.
just upping sticks and leaving is a dream. the rarity of it actually happening is just mind boggling. even between two countries that have such "good relations" as america/uk. it's even harder the other way round.
the only place on earth that i can think of where it's "easy" is the EU, because the EU states that you can go pretty much anywhere in any country across any border that is within the EU, with little to no restriction. except of course that the EU has probably the largest veriety of languages of any other landmass, and dispite english being the second language for a lot, the necessity of speaking fluent native is a harsh enough deterrant for most people to just "up and move" within the EU.