Someone mentioned a new pc shirt?? Bring it on! Perhaps a hoody with saboteur on the back of it and when zipped up through the hood part it makes green tooths face over yours!
Man, I want to buy it.
Back to the challenge at hand, so is Dom V actually going to start after all the crazy stuff that has gone down? Are people really considering joining? How many of you are? I was jazzed to finally enter and be a part of polycount's army but now... I just want to do art with you guys and not deal with Dom V...
you two remind me of the people who say 'making games can't be that hard' without any real understanding of all the bullshit it takes.
probably due to the fact that there General Forum trolls for the most part.
As Adam and a few of the other mods have said before they are planning/working on new contests for PC. IIRC they stated this well before the huge success of the Polycount Pack TF2 contest.
Now that was a well run contest that didn't run into any bullshit like some other contests. Looking forward to when the next one comes around.
Difference here is we're not those people. Seriously think about the situation logically... What's needed to run a competition that the artists want to participate in?
Yeah, you'd think but you haven't been here long enough to see all the failed group projects and challenges.
The thing that really changed my opinion was when I was talking to someone who has competed in every Dom War and placed multiple times. Yeah, the judging system is a bit broken and there's always delays and problems but since 2007 GA has run 12 major challenges from beginning to end.
First line says the main challenge starts on February 28th. Then the very next line says the main challenge is delayed 'because of a misunderstanding between PC & GA'.
1 - What's being said here? Is the contest on or is it delayed?
2 - There was never a misunderstanding between Polycount & GameArtisans. There was a misunderstanding in Fred thinking that some artists wouldn't take issue with him updating the contest clause as he did. And that if they didn't take issue with it, that it wasn't his problem. And if the date of the contest is now announced, why even mention this at all?
What happens when Fred doesn't get the donations he thought his post would garner?
"I am sorry I tried to use your art work to create some revenue for my business, even on a small scale. In stead, just send me money outright if you'd like this to continue."
*Record scratch* What?
It would have been so much easier, lighter on the community and less dramatic to just apologize, give the date, mention that its a community challenge and not a contest and wish everyone luck.
Difference here is we're not those people. Seriously think about the situation logically... What's needed to run a competition that the artists want to participate in?
- Provide an interesting or expandable 'universe' to have the characters 'fight' in.
- Provide an easy to use submittion system.
- Have 2-3 talented judges to comment on the top place artwork and pick out the top 100/75/50/25, etc.
Then you have the optional or additional things, such as:
- Prizes, this would be something you offer ONLY when it is possible to achieve. Make sure nothing is physical (all digital download prizes, such as games, training dvd's, and so on).
- Sponsors, just as a backing to the competition. If you can find a company willing to put their logo on the website in return for a prize item, then brilliant. - Donations, not in the way Fred has done it, but from the start, giving the OPTION to allow artists to donate a few pennies towards hosting costs (which arn't massive anyway).
I really fail to see how this whole competition takes so much time and money. Unless that time and money is infact being spent on other things.
3. Dominance War, a non-business entity, will be Donation based. Donating is optional.
I would also like to point out that nobody has addressed why the "misunderstanding" would lead to a delay.
edit: Except for Adam as I was making this post...
you two remind me of the people who say 'making games can't be that hard' without any real understanding of all the bullshit it takes.
but i wish you the best of luck.
isn't it strange, that making a game is such hard work, and making a baby isn't. yet the maintainance and average playtime of the two are reversed in the extreme...
So can we be lucky enough to get so much drama when/if unearthly rolls around? Right when I get bored with the internet, something good to read like this pops up.
I know animosity is building up because of these events but, in the end DW is still a great and positive thing bringing together multiple communities for a great fun challenge. Kinda like the olympics..except we don't have to do pushups and shit to get ready...and there's ton for cleavage envolved. I know we are angry but can't we get past it and be the bigger team and let the games begin? I am siding with our community and do agree these events have been lame as hell...but it still doesn't take away from the fact how fun and great and rad as fuck DW is. And plus, its so satisfying seeing so much green on the scoreboard at the end of the competition.
I know animosity is building up because of these events but, in the end DW is still a great and positive thing bringing together multiple communities for a great fun challenge. Kinda like the olympics..except we don't have to do pushups and shit to get ready...and there's ton for cleavage envolved. I know we are angry but can't we get past it and be the bigger team and let the games begin? I am siding with our community and do agree these events have been lame as hell...but it still doesn't take away from the fact how fun and great and rad as fuck DW is. And plus, its so satisfying seeing so much green on the scoreboard at the end of the competition.
Agree completely Erich. And it's a tragedy for all communities and organizers involved that any of this has happened. Just think how amazing this competition would have been right now if it had grown responsibly. More forums, more artists, more sponsors, more game studios taking part, so much potential for where it could be now and in the years to come. But the dominance war has hit a brick wall. I genuinely feel bad for Fred, he is largely responsible for this thing becoming what it is regardless of what he's turned it into to sustain it as a one man band. But he's also responsible for preventing what it could have become.
Forced to choose between helping Fred to fulfill his dream of creating the biggest art competition in the word and make a living out of it and what's best for the entire game art community, I vote for the latter.
I have to agree with EricWK. You can be petty and talk crap about the guy or you can show you have better character and sensibility than him by making this the greatest Dom War ever. This whole thread is the total opposite of what Dom War is about. So let's be a community and do some art. :poly105:
I've had the unfortunate time the past few years of always having something come up right before or during Dom War that stopped me from competing. Even during DW2 I had to pull out halfway through (ha.) This will be the first one that I can hopefully enter and have the time to see to completion. I can however totally see why people are fed up with how the pre war and even the contests before that were handled. It's disappointing to see so many of the heavy hitters from polycount looking like they may sit this one out and that's their decision which I can respect.
My only real complaint or plea towards those disenfranchised folk regarding this is please please please, take the time and give the helping hand or critiques to those that still chose to participate. While I understand if you don't wish to contribute art to the contest yourselves there are enough people that are part of this community that can use the guiding help of seasoned veterans and talented artists such as yourselves. I'm not gonna lie though, I'm hoping to get some critiques myself.
Not to keep beating a dead horse, but...seriously? Standing up for your rights as an artist and taking offense to having your work sold without permission is NOT whining. It is NOT being petty to show some concern about questionable actions and it sure as shit is NOT talking crap to criticize a person's actions - especially when you're asked to give them money and / or time. Twisting this logic and turning it into a personal attack is the same bullshit mentality that spun this whole ordeal out of control and left none of the questions answered.
Questioning the legitimacy of an organization, especially one with the illusion of sponsorship from BIG companies we work in is having the communities best interests in mind. Not inflating someone's ego to keep making the same mistakes over and over again - And - to resent having "your forum" constantly shit on for raising actual concerns when your admins have put in just as much effort as everyone else AND tons of members have spent hours of their lives for his "cause" isn't whining.
In my mind, having better sensibility would be to let a dying "thing" die. Not prop it back up on one knee and wait for the coup de gras. I don't know,<sarcasm> if you really want to do the game art community a favour I guess click on that giant red donation button a few times extra so we don't have to hear the poor martyr speech again. Just don't be surprised when it's not enough and the whole thing goes tits up again.</sarcasm>
If one "insane" artists decides to head up something alone, they better be prepared to show some accountability and some responsibility when shit goes south. Sorry, but that's called being an adult, maybe some members haven't reached that stage yet, but that's the way life works. If you do something, you better be able to back it up.
If this were the Olympics, there would never be a decisive winner. If this were the Olympics, all of the medals would have gotten lost in transit. If this were the Olympics, all of the marathon runners would need to pay for your tickets. If this were the Olympics and our "country" did place, the announcer would then proceed to tell the world how shitty our government is. What a joke.
Not to keep beating a dead horse, but...seriously? Standing up for your rights as an artist and taking offense to having your work sold without permission is NOT whining. It is NOT being petty to show some concern about questionable actions and it sure as shit is NOT talking crap to criticize a person's actions - especially when you're asked to give them money and / or time. Twisting this logic and turning it into a personal attack is the same bullshit mentality that spun this whole ordeal out of control and left none of the questions answered.
Questioning the legitimacy of an organization, especially one with the illusion of sponsorship from BIG companies we work in is having the communities best interests in mind. Not inflating someone's ego to keep making the same mistakes over and over again - And - to resent having "your forum" constantly shit on for raising actual concerns when your admins have put in just as much effort as everyone else AND tons of members have spent hours of their lives for his "cause" isn't whining.
In my mind, having better sensibility would be to let a dying "thing" die. Not prop it back up on one knee and wait for the coup de gras. I don't know,<sarcasm> if you really want to do the game art community a favour I guess click on that giant red donation button a few times extra so we don't have to hear the poor martyr speech again. Just don't be surprised when it's not enough and the whole thing goes tits up again.</sarcasm>
If one "insane" artists decides to head up something alone, they better be prepared to show some accountability and some responsibility when shit goes south. Sorry, but that's called being an adult, maybe some members haven't reached that stage yet, but that's the way life works. If you do something, you better be able to back it up.
If this were the Olympics, there would never be a decisive winner. If this were the Olympics, all of the medals would have gotten lost in transit. If this were the Olympics, all of the marathon runners would need to pay for your tickets. If this were the Olympics and our "country" did place, the announcer would then proceed to tell the world how shitty our government is. What a joke.
It's one thing to stand up for your rights. It's another thing entirely to just beat on a guy over and over again. If he violated your rights, you should take him to court. It won't do one iota of good to continue this angry mob mentality. This whole thread has been about people seeking self-gratification over their displeasure of something wrong that was done to them. You're not trying fix anything and you're not standing up for your rights. You're just doing the exact same thing that you're attacking Fred for: Being a martyr. It shows a serious lack of character because you'd rather satisfy your desire for vengeance than be there for the art. You're a professional, act like one.
So, your suggesting instead of throwing back and forth harmless words, we should take him for all he's worth in court? I think even Fred would rather us do what we're doing xD
Nah, I think that what he's saying is that "put up or shut up" basically. Meaning, if what Fred did bothers you so much, either sue him, or get back to making art.
Which I don't know if I agree with, I think it's fair to speak your mind about things. But anyway, that's just how I read that post.
You're just doing the exact same thing that you're attacking Fred for: Being a martyr. It shows a serious lack of character because you'd rather satisfy your desire for vengeance than be there for the art. You're a professional, act like one.
Fred isn't a martyr, he's an idiot.
if he were a martyr, then he would have ended this whole thing a long time ago. but instead he's dragged it on, and on, and on. wasted countless money, countless peoples time, and to top it all of, he even tried to rip off EVERY artist that was thinking of entering.
a martyr is someone who (by definition) sacrifices their life, station, or something of great value in order to sustain a principal or function past their sacrifice. that is not what fred did.
Indeed. I think, yet again, any ideas opposing the continuation of DW and any well founded criticism is being viewed as a personal attack rather than taken seriously - Concluding that I (or I guess any one else who smells bullshit...) to take him to court - which is a bit crazy since he hasn't actually committed a crime, just has questionable ethics - or "make art"...not realizing that I have, in fact, done so.
Also, our new friend is failing to realize that ending something before it gets worse IS the professional thing to do and standing behind your actions IS the professional thing to do. Plus, failing to see that by not participating and discussing the actions taken due to some OBVIOUSLY underhanded moves IS trying to fix things and trying to defend your rights as an artist...at least within the scope we are able to play in.
You're all acting like martyrs. Fred too. It doesn't matter whether you are a martyr, by definition, or not. You're all acting like petty children stomping your feet in futility over something that really isn't worth all this time and energy. Either take him to task or get over it and move on. For crying out loud, you've taken to using the donate button from his site in your avatars to openly mock him. How is that going to serve any useful purpose other than to make you look like a selfish ass? Grow up.
You're all acting like martyrs. Fred too. It doesn't matter whether you are a martyr, by definition, or not. You're all acting like petty children stomping your feet in futility over something that really isn't worth all this time and energy. Either take him to task or get over it and move on. For crying out loud, you've taken to using the donate button from his site in your avatars to openly mock him. How is that going to serve any useful purpose other than to make you look like a selfish ass? Grow up.
Don't you have to like, I don't know, die and stuff to be a martyr? or at least sacrifice something.
Everyone is just living life as usual, plus in the spare time speak out about shit that doesn't make sense. All in the hope that said shit will be fixed in the future. Make your voice heard, so on and so forth.
You're all acting like martyrs. Fred too. It doesn't matter whether you are a martyr, by definition, or not. You're all acting like petty children stomping your feet in futility over something that really isn't worth all this time and energy. Either take him to task or get over it and move on. For crying out loud, you've taken to using the donate button from his site in your avatars to openly mock him. How is that going to serve any useful purpose other than to make you look like a selfish ass? Grow up.
when you start posting art, you can start talking about artists rights and whether it's ok for them to speak their mind. ok?
I am an artist. Whether I'm any good is completely subjective. I don't dare post anything on this forum as I might regret it after how this conflict has transpired.
Greevar: I personally WANT to whistleblow people who try to shaft our art community. You'd be surprised at just how tiny it is, and word of mouth, forum posts and spreading of the good word is the way to get that done.
You'll find that we are in fact fun loving people, who enjoy art, and sharing our tips and tricks with each other 'for free' to help the future artist generations of our industry. But, fuck with that, and bring your "Yup, this might make a few artists angry but, not my problem." attitude into our hippy, pot smokin 'hood, then you'd best be prepared for spittle, buckteeth, pitchforks and the odd dueling banjo.
Now, You come riding on in on your golden steed like the new Sherriffs in town, trying to encourage us to either stfu or take Fredh to court all the while calling upstanding members of our community unprofessional?? Dude please, *points to the horizon* tell your story walkin'
why would you regret posting artwork on an art forum where the members are renowned for giving good critiq? political debate aside, that's what this place is. and there's nobody on here that i know of who puts their personal beliefs before the good of a fellow artist and their improvement.
you're trying to combine way too many things into your argument, and now it's so diluted that it just doesn't carry any more.
my point, was that so far you've just come off as someone QQing that their best friend made a dick of themselves, and that because people are willing to say he made a dick of himself, you feel the need to have a go back. the problem with this, is that while everyone is entitled to an opinion, you're starting to sound like "my opinion is better than yours, so shut up", couple that with the fact you've not posted any art, it's easy to understand why people may get the impression that your opinion is not entirely enformed.
Whoa! Checkmate! You got me! I guess you have to be "one of us" to have an opinion. Thanks for making my point for me.
No but when you come onto a game art forum and just start trolling all over the General Forums with no constructive posts and coming into this thread trying to start drama with your inability to understand what a martyr is people are going to call you out.
And people wouldnt judge your art any diffrently because of your options in some thread. Hiding behind the "oh i don't know if I should post my work and get good constructive feedback from industry professions and passionate game artists because they might be mean to me for what I said that one time" is such a childish cop out.
I for one agree with Gav. This isnt something people should just forgive and forget. Not discussing issues like this and just letting them slide would only give people like FredH more of a reason to do them again. The guy was trying to profit off others, didn't think it was wrong, and would have never told anyone until it was leaked what he was doing. Having discussions about issues like this are important and should be bad.
Trying to start drama like you are constantly doing is not of any value.
I haven't really been following all of the drama surrounding the Dominance War. But it occurs to me that if a lot of the regular participants are going to submit anything this year, I will stand a much better chance of winning.
I haven't really been following all of the drama surrounding the Dominance War. But it occurs to me that if a lot of the regular participants are going to submit anything this year, I will stand a much better chance of winning.
Replies
Really? I mean, seriously? A misunderstanding huh...bloody.
Man, I want to buy it.
Back to the challenge at hand, so is Dom V actually going to start after all the crazy stuff that has gone down? Are people really considering joining? How many of you are? I was jazzed to finally enter and be a part of polycount's army but now... I just want to do art with you guys and not deal with Dom V...
probably due to the fact that there General Forum trolls for the most part.
As Adam and a few of the other mods have said before they are planning/working on new contests for PC. IIRC they stated this well before the huge success of the Polycount Pack TF2 contest.
Now that was a well run contest that didn't run into any bullshit like some other contests. Looking forward to when the next one comes around.
Yeah, you'd think but you haven't been here long enough to see all the failed group projects and challenges.
The thing that really changed my opinion was when I was talking to someone who has competed in every Dom War and placed multiple times. Yeah, the judging system is a bit broken and there's always delays and problems but since 2007 GA has run 12 major challenges from beginning to end.
:S
I signing up for cgchat.
Hold on while I remake a cgchat forum.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17188/domwhat.jpg
First line says the main challenge starts on February 28th. Then the very next line says the main challenge is delayed 'because of a misunderstanding between PC & GA'.
1 - What's being said here? Is the contest on or is it delayed?
2 - There was never a misunderstanding between Polycount & GameArtisans. There was a misunderstanding in Fred thinking that some artists wouldn't take issue with him updating the contest clause as he did. And that if they didn't take issue with it, that it wasn't his problem. And if the date of the contest is now announced, why even mention this at all?
What happens when Fred doesn't get the donations he thought his post would garner?
"I am sorry I tried to use your art work to create some revenue for my business, even on a small scale. In stead, just send me money outright if you'd like this to continue."
*Record scratch* What?
It would have been so much easier, lighter on the community and less dramatic to just apologize, give the date, mention that its a community challenge and not a contest and wish everyone luck.
I've been planning on entering for the past several months and was looking forward to it starting in Jan, but I can wait another month.
Still planning on doing it.
edit: Except for Adam as I was making this post...
isn't it strange, that making a game is such hard work, and making a baby isn't. yet the maintainance and average playtime of the two are reversed in the extreme...
Too far, too soon?
Or we could "sabotage" it and make all the characters look like Fred?
Kill two birds with one stone.
Agree completely Erich. And it's a tragedy for all communities and organizers involved that any of this has happened. Just think how amazing this competition would have been right now if it had grown responsibly. More forums, more artists, more sponsors, more game studios taking part, so much potential for where it could be now and in the years to come. But the dominance war has hit a brick wall. I genuinely feel bad for Fred, he is largely responsible for this thing becoming what it is regardless of what he's turned it into to sustain it as a one man band. But he's also responsible for preventing what it could have become.
Forced to choose between helping Fred to fulfill his dream of creating the biggest art competition in the word and make a living out of it and what's best for the entire game art community, I vote for the latter.
My only real complaint or plea towards those disenfranchised folk regarding this is please please please, take the time and give the helping hand or critiques to those that still chose to participate. While I understand if you don't wish to contribute art to the contest yourselves there are enough people that are part of this community that can use the guiding help of seasoned veterans and talented artists such as yourselves. I'm not gonna lie though, I'm hoping to get some critiques myself.
Questioning the legitimacy of an organization, especially one with the illusion of sponsorship from BIG companies we work in is having the communities best interests in mind. Not inflating someone's ego to keep making the same mistakes over and over again - And - to resent having "your forum" constantly shit on for raising actual concerns when your admins have put in just as much effort as everyone else AND tons of members have spent hours of their lives for his "cause" isn't whining.
In my mind, having better sensibility would be to let a dying "thing" die. Not prop it back up on one knee and wait for the coup de gras. I don't know,<sarcasm> if you really want to do the game art community a favour I guess click on that giant red donation button a few times extra so we don't have to hear the poor martyr speech again. Just don't be surprised when it's not enough and the whole thing goes tits up again.</sarcasm>
If one "insane" artists decides to head up something alone, they better be prepared to show some accountability and some responsibility when shit goes south. Sorry, but that's called being an adult, maybe some members haven't reached that stage yet, but that's the way life works. If you do something, you better be able to back it up.
If this were the Olympics, there would never be a decisive winner. If this were the Olympics, all of the medals would have gotten lost in transit. If this were the Olympics, all of the marathon runners would need to pay for your tickets. If this were the Olympics and our "country" did place, the announcer would then proceed to tell the world how shitty our government is. What a joke.
It's one thing to stand up for your rights. It's another thing entirely to just beat on a guy over and over again. If he violated your rights, you should take him to court. It won't do one iota of good to continue this angry mob mentality. This whole thread has been about people seeking self-gratification over their displeasure of something wrong that was done to them. You're not trying fix anything and you're not standing up for your rights. You're just doing the exact same thing that you're attacking Fred for: Being a martyr. It shows a serious lack of character because you'd rather satisfy your desire for vengeance than be there for the art. You're a professional, act like one.
Nah, I think that what he's saying is that "put up or shut up" basically. Meaning, if what Fred did bothers you so much, either sue him, or get back to making art.
Which I don't know if I agree with, I think it's fair to speak your mind about things. But anyway, that's just how I read that post.
Fred isn't a martyr, he's an idiot.
if he were a martyr, then he would have ended this whole thing a long time ago. but instead he's dragged it on, and on, and on. wasted countless money, countless peoples time, and to top it all of, he even tried to rip off EVERY artist that was thinking of entering.
a martyr is someone who (by definition) sacrifices their life, station, or something of great value in order to sustain a principal or function past their sacrifice. that is not what fred did.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79626
Also, our new friend is failing to realize that ending something before it gets worse IS the professional thing to do and standing behind your actions IS the professional thing to do. Plus, failing to see that by not participating and discussing the actions taken due to some OBVIOUSLY underhanded moves IS trying to fix things and trying to defend your rights as an artist...at least within the scope we are able to play in.
Don't you have to like, I don't know, die and stuff to be a martyr? or at least sacrifice something.
Everyone is just living life as usual, plus in the spare time speak out about shit that doesn't make sense. All in the hope that said shit will be fixed in the future. Make your voice heard, so on and so forth.
when you start posting art, you can start talking about artists rights and whether it's ok for them to speak their mind. ok?
Whoa! Checkmate! You got me! I guess you have to be "one of us" to have an opinion. Thanks for making my point for me.
Wait, you're not an artist?
I am an artist. Whether I'm any good is completely subjective. I don't dare post anything on this forum as I might regret it after how this conflict has transpired.
You'll find that we are in fact fun loving people, who enjoy art, and sharing our tips and tricks with each other 'for free' to help the future artist generations of our industry. But, fuck with that, and bring your "Yup, this might make a few artists angry but, not my problem." attitude into our hippy, pot smokin 'hood, then you'd best be prepared for spittle, buckteeth, pitchforks and the odd dueling banjo.
Now, You come riding on in on your golden steed like the new Sherriffs in town, trying to encourage us to either stfu or take Fredh to court all the while calling upstanding members of our community unprofessional?? Dude please, *points to the horizon* tell your story walkin'
love it. Put more popcorn on. There's still a few pages in this yet. Just need someone to mention religion and we got a blockbuster.
you're trying to combine way too many things into your argument, and now it's so diluted that it just doesn't carry any more.
my point, was that so far you've just come off as someone QQing that their best friend made a dick of themselves, and that because people are willing to say he made a dick of himself, you feel the need to have a go back. the problem with this, is that while everyone is entitled to an opinion, you're starting to sound like "my opinion is better than yours, so shut up", couple that with the fact you've not posted any art, it's easy to understand why people may get the impression that your opinion is not entirely enformed.
No but when you come onto a game art forum and just start trolling all over the General Forums with no constructive posts and coming into this thread trying to start drama with your inability to understand what a martyr is people are going to call you out.
And people wouldnt judge your art any diffrently because of your options in some thread. Hiding behind the "oh i don't know if I should post my work and get good constructive feedback from industry professions and passionate game artists because they might be mean to me for what I said that one time" is such a childish cop out.
I for one agree with Gav. This isnt something people should just forgive and forget. Not discussing issues like this and just letting them slide would only give people like FredH more of a reason to do them again. The guy was trying to profit off others, didn't think it was wrong, and would have never told anyone until it was leaked what he was doing. Having discussions about issues like this are important and should be bad.
Trying to start drama like you are constantly doing is not of any value.
Shhhh, you'll foil our plan.