There is something to be said for working towards a common goal - that of battling it out in the name of ones own community in friendly competition with another. I think much of that would be lost to some degree with many of these suggestions of a simplified format. Not to say a new structure isn't necessary, but I think to lose the elements of Dominance War that inspire camaraderie and excitement would be a great pity.
~ Although; I don't think that Dom War is dead. I still think it could hold its popularity and many amazing artists will still enter. I'm just not very interested in it anymore.
I'ts become Far too big for me personally and is more about the winning than the actual learning; and the odd associated judging systems just make me uninterested in it.
That being said, dom war is still an overall positive thing and I wouldn't want it to go; but it just doesn't sync with my personal development or idea of fun anymore
~ This epic size competition thing doesn't really appeal to me anymore. I'd rather just enter a tiny competition as long as people like Gav, Jacque and Hazardous etc are gonna be entering. I basically just go where the quality level is high so I can learn - And where the judging is actually reflective of who is making good art decisions.
Agreed there.
There's not really a point in competing if you don't communicate. The charm is that people give each other advice, and get it in return. Unlike just regular personal work, a competition turns into a big ball of encouragement. And that's nice.
That doesn't work with 800 entries, or Korean forums, though, so I rather fail to see what's the point in competing with them.
Concerning judging: I rather liked having judges; most of them had good comments that spotted both where the best could be even better, and what exactly made those entries top notch. Very useful for everyone. I'd reckon you could go further and get some judges with a different point of view, like a fine art teacher or a sculptor.
Here is what I think of a weekly check in system and why I think it will help. It's not a cure-all but it does go a long way in fixing some of the core problems and bottle necks of the contest. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss these problems and bottle necks if they aren't addressed they will continue to fester and piss people off.
So here ya go a critique of DW as someone who has competed and who has sat out.
About hosting everything on one site and making artists compete on that one site, this was suggested in the past. It was remarked that the consequence of this would be that artists would not be able to compete in a setting that they are already familiar with, and they would not be surrounded by the friends and buddies they are usually together with.
On most boards a sub-forum is created and only competing artists check it out regularly, the same artists that would go check a DW forum.
EDIT: Just to clarify I'm not advocating that the contest only run on one centralized board to run ever aspect just a forum or a check in site that acts as a hub that would help people navigate the many boards.
A competition like other competitions?
Why reinvent the wheel? I understand the artist mentality to want to do everything 100% from scratch. But why not look to other structured competitions for some guidance like you would a tutorial about a new technique? It seems like DW suffers from wanting to do things differently so it tries to break new ground in ways that don't always work.
As with almost every form of competition you train in your home gym but leave it behind to go fight in the area. Big time boxing isn't hosted in the ratty corner gym down on pine st.
DW as a Science Fair or Worlds Fair.
You build your stuff in your garage or kitchen table (home forum) but that's not where people go to view it. You drag your stuff to a centralized location so its easily verified and distributed.
Fixing some basic frustration
One of the things that I find frustrating about DW and ultimately leads to me not following it, is finding out whats going on and who's working on what. It can be an exhausting fruitless search that most people don't have time for, so why not help them out? Especially if they're competing.With the way it is now, it gives raise to ninja entries from out of no where which is a big problem in the contest. Clear that up by centralizing parts of it and it would help defuse that tension.
Asking them to check in weekly and post updates on the contest site isn't as restricting as say... oh I dunno "Use only forum colors and pick from these highly defined archetypes..." which is more off putting to artists than having to upload an image once a week.
A centralized hub would encourage people to get out of their garage and go be part of the community.
It's not that radical
DW has these elements already, the thumbnail updates and thread watch features from the DW progress pages worked great for this. But since people where not required to post progress it was easy for sleeper entries to thrive and you still had to do a lot of foot work find updates, also not everyone used the page, because of confusion. They relied more on their home forum for info and DW news than the DW site.
What it won't do
A weekly check in system might not get people cued in on all the garage talk around a particular entry but it would give them a baseline of other entries and a link to those deeper in depth discussions if they want to go check them out. Instead of forcing them to wade through mountains of garage talk.
Saves everybody time and Helps DW An hour at one site running ads... generating money for that site... Again it would make collecting image packs easier also... I think you'll find that if approached the right way artists would be open to the idea, however if you throw it in at the last min without telling anyone, then when they question the decision, tell them to suck it, they get pissy. It wasn't a bad idea, just presented badly.
We've (forums other than GA) never been fighting on our home turf...
In the past it always seemed to be that everyone was fighting on GA's home turf, the way things looked and ran was very GA, everyone had to get used to the DW submission pages and had to visit the rules page constantly for ninja edits. Normally you had to go visit the GA boards and hunt around for the rules thread just to stay current on the rules as they morphed, or at least for an explanation of the rules, because honestly just reading the DW rules page was crazy nuts. Without explanations some of the rules seemed crazy.
Sometimes those edits didn't get around to some of the board members for days or weeks. If they're feeding through one site it makes alerting them to those changes pretty easy.
It just seems that DW has been running on manual power, like you're a single guy on a stand alone bike trying to generate power for a whole city block? Or like an artist that does the same steps over and over again without asking a tech artist to help automate those steps? I'm sure that level of automation costs money, but it seems like once those things are in place it would be easier to maintain.
Long post short
Less ninja rockstars from left field.
Less ninja rule edits.
More transparency and easier ways to check up on everyone and enjoy the competition.
I hope DW V can continue because I'm ready for the battle, bitches.
Care or not about prizes or recognition is so personal and probably we'll never agree.
In my case, public voting doesn't work I had bad experiences with that voting system in other forums and I like that my entry is judge for experience artists.
Don't let the french name fool you, folks, Jacque is Asian. That's right...I'll give you a few minutes to digest that information and come to terms with reality.
Pft Jacque is white Gavin! I bet Jacque forgot how to even use chop sticks and now even results to sporks.
the public voting is a good idea until you get something like 4chan flooding the voting or having people using multiple ips to vote.
hi in the forum i usually hang out, voter choice matter, however,
the real winner always will be judged by the big percentage of judge points
then rest of percentages are added by the voters.
I think thats fair enough.
the judges usually several experienced artists on the field. regardless how small the challenge is.
I've been watching these events unfold from a distance. Didnt really want to get involved tbh. I think everyone else was voicing anything I needed to say. Anyhoo.
I just wanted to say I'd be very sad to see DW go. I think the Art world needs a world wide competition across forums. Just as Football needs a World Cup or Baseball needs a World Series (<---Bad example). I've been made aware of so many amazing artists that have influenced my work. And without the competition I might not have seen them. I didnt even know Leewiart existed, etc.
Smaller "in-forum" comps are great and I can't wait for PC to kick off whatever is planned but thats going to be more like Football in the Premiership or FA Cup.
Also I feel that placing in a DW comp equates to far more than bragging rights or (non-existant) prizes could ever be worth. If I placed Top 25 I'd have that on my CV straight away. I think anyone in the industry would recognised that as a qualifaction at some level. My main goal of doing large comps like this is to better my portfolio but when/if I get good enough, and if I place I'll be putting it on my CV in big BOLD letters.
Dont take this the wrong way or anything but I'm not sure saying I won a Polycount comp would have as much gravitas. But lets hope the comps here do get that much recognition someday.
Whatever happens I'm still doing artwork, learning and moving forward. Thats all that counts.
Noo don't stroke Gavs ego anymore! You should disagree with him completely no matter what he says.
Gotta agree with most people here, noone really cares about the prizes, for people who don't have work and win its better than anything you could put on your CV, plus it's fun, it's about making art, and making amazing art at that.
I actually always liked having the battling forums competing for glory as well as the artists. To me it always seemed to get everyone bannded around there forum of choice and pull in tighter as a community.
Also having everyone post on there "home" forums and having to go to other forums to see the entries forced me to see these other websites I normally would have little exposure too. It always gave me an excuse to lurk around there forums, see some of the awesome work others are doing.
So personally for me I prefer to keep it on home turf forums.
Would it not help to have maybe a first round of voting on the each forum and then the top 5 or 10 from each team moves on to the DW site for a second round.
Split the pressure between the forums and the DW site.
I actually always liked having the battling forums competing for glory as well as the artists. To me it always seemed to get everyone bannded around there forum of choice and pull in tighter as a community.
I agree thats really what differentiates DW from in-forum comps.
anywayz hopefully this will all lead to a slicker operation.
Also having everyone post on there "home" forums and having to go to other forums to see the entries forced me to see these other websites I normally would have little exposure too. It always gave me an excuse to lurk around there forums, see some of the awesome work others are doing.
Yeah, the inter-forum stuff is great. I really only started browsing PC during DWIV because of the cross forum stuff. If not for that, I could still be making wip threads where everyone just said it was "looking good" and "coming along well". A place where the general discussion section is like a ghost town and everyone acts professional/appropriate all of the time.
Of course I was immediately won over by penis tanks and haven't looked back. PC is the only game art community for me.:)
I view DW as the olympics, a place for friendly competition and great publicity of game art!
If DW is to continue, maybe instead of prizes, all 'losing' forums would be required to have a logo and link to the winning forums winning entry... talk about shame
when I first read it I thought awesome!!!! as freds gonna finally get some sleep and not be super stressed and finally sort GA out (its felt a bit neglected tbh), but mostly I was thinking DW and UC may run a bit smoother and be super epic as more people will be involved. Then I was thinking omg what if polycount did it, no delays, Im sure big sponsors would arrive, amazing super uber artists everywhere, a well thought out judging system and tests done months in advance for a smooth turnout.
But............. then I thought wait a minute. why should they have to? why should they have to fork out all that money? I completely agree with adam and am glad that his first commitment is to polycount and its community. I think its whats lacked over at GA recently. And after reading the responses on here it makes me think that fred doesnt want it to die but nobody wants to take it on. If a business plan has failed in the past its gonna be a tough sell to get others to revamp it. His response in the letter makes it sound like DWs future is guaranteed almost and hes arranged its future with other forums over the past week, but after reading his posts on here I dont think its gonna happen. We should see DW5 continue according to Amethyst over at GA (really nice member ) but the future of DW and UC still seem rather sketchy to me.
And Im not sure if thats a bad thing or not, maybe its time to let it die and start over with these competitions where its nice and simple and not gonna cost an arm and a leg. DW after this latest news has become more about making money to keep the contest afloat than about making cutting edge artwork and having fun, the spirit has gone for me.
I would be well up for a polycount competition with no prizes and just about making great artwork.
Replies
I'ts become Far too big for me personally and is more about the winning than the actual learning; and the odd associated judging systems just make me uninterested in it.
That being said, dom war is still an overall positive thing and I wouldn't want it to go; but it just doesn't sync with my personal development or idea of fun anymore
Agreed there.
There's not really a point in competing if you don't communicate. The charm is that people give each other advice, and get it in return. Unlike just regular personal work, a competition turns into a big ball of encouragement. And that's nice.
That doesn't work with 800 entries, or Korean forums, though, so I rather fail to see what's the point in competing with them.
Concerning judging: I rather liked having judges; most of them had good comments that spotted both where the best could be even better, and what exactly made those entries top notch. Very useful for everyone. I'd reckon you could go further and get some judges with a different point of view, like a fine art teacher or a sculptor.
If you need a competition to do cool things.. man, that's something bad.
So here ya go a critique of DW as someone who has competed and who has sat out.
On most boards a sub-forum is created and only competing artists check it out regularly, the same artists that would go check a DW forum.
EDIT: Just to clarify I'm not advocating that the contest only run on one centralized board to run ever aspect just a forum or a check in site that acts as a hub that would help people navigate the many boards.
A competition like other competitions?
Why reinvent the wheel? I understand the artist mentality to want to do everything 100% from scratch. But why not look to other structured competitions for some guidance like you would a tutorial about a new technique? It seems like DW suffers from wanting to do things differently so it tries to break new ground in ways that don't always work.
As with almost every form of competition you train in your home gym but leave it behind to go fight in the area. Big time boxing isn't hosted in the ratty corner gym down on pine st.
DW as a Science Fair or Worlds Fair.
You build your stuff in your garage or kitchen table (home forum) but that's not where people go to view it. You drag your stuff to a centralized location so its easily verified and distributed.
Fixing some basic frustration
One of the things that I find frustrating about DW and ultimately leads to me not following it, is finding out whats going on and who's working on what. It can be an exhausting fruitless search that most people don't have time for, so why not help them out? Especially if they're competing. With the way it is now, it gives raise to ninja entries from out of no where which is a big problem in the contest. Clear that up by centralizing parts of it and it would help defuse that tension.
Asking them to check in weekly and post updates on the contest site isn't as restricting as say... oh I dunno "Use only forum colors and pick from these highly defined archetypes..." which is more off putting to artists than having to upload an image once a week.
A centralized hub would encourage people to get out of their garage and go be part of the community.
It's not that radical
DW has these elements already, the thumbnail updates and thread watch features from the DW progress pages worked great for this. But since people where not required to post progress it was easy for sleeper entries to thrive and you still had to do a lot of foot work find updates, also not everyone used the page, because of confusion. They relied more on their home forum for info and DW news than the DW site.
What it won't do
A weekly check in system might not get people cued in on all the garage talk around a particular entry but it would give them a baseline of other entries and a link to those deeper in depth discussions if they want to go check them out. Instead of forcing them to wade through mountains of garage talk.
Saves everybody time and Helps DW
An hour at one site running ads... generating money for that site... Again it would make collecting image packs easier also... I think you'll find that if approached the right way artists would be open to the idea, however if you throw it in at the last min without telling anyone, then when they question the decision, tell them to suck it, they get pissy. It wasn't a bad idea, just presented badly.
We've (forums other than GA) never been fighting on our home turf...
In the past it always seemed to be that everyone was fighting on GA's home turf, the way things looked and ran was very GA, everyone had to get used to the DW submission pages and had to visit the rules page constantly for ninja edits. Normally you had to go visit the GA boards and hunt around for the rules thread just to stay current on the rules as they morphed, or at least for an explanation of the rules, because honestly just reading the DW rules page was crazy nuts. Without explanations some of the rules seemed crazy.
Sometimes those edits didn't get around to some of the board members for days or weeks. If they're feeding through one site it makes alerting them to those changes pretty easy.
It just seems that DW has been running on manual power, like you're a single guy on a stand alone bike trying to generate power for a whole city block? Or like an artist that does the same steps over and over again without asking a tech artist to help automate those steps? I'm sure that level of automation costs money, but it seems like once those things are in place it would be easier to maintain.
Long post short
Less ninja rockstars from left field.
Less ninja rule edits.
More transparency and easier ways to check up on everyone and enjoy the competition.
Care or not about prizes or recognition is so personal and probably we'll never agree.
In my case, public voting doesn't work I had bad experiences with that voting system in other forums and I like that my entry is judge for experience artists.
Thanks Fred, for the honest answer
Pft Jacque is white Gavin! I bet Jacque forgot how to even use chop sticks and now even results to sporks.
hi in the forum i usually hang out, voter choice matter, however,
the real winner always will be judged by the big percentage of judge points
then rest of percentages are added by the voters.
I think thats fair enough.
the judges usually several experienced artists on the field. regardless how small the challenge is.
we already run many challenges , so far so good.
I just wanted to say I'd be very sad to see DW go. I think the Art world needs a world wide competition across forums. Just as Football needs a World Cup or Baseball needs a World Series (<---Bad example). I've been made aware of so many amazing artists that have influenced my work. And without the competition I might not have seen them. I didnt even know Leewiart existed, etc.
Smaller "in-forum" comps are great and I can't wait for PC to kick off whatever is planned but thats going to be more like Football in the Premiership or FA Cup.
Also I feel that placing in a DW comp equates to far more than bragging rights or (non-existant) prizes could ever be worth. If I placed Top 25 I'd have that on my CV straight away. I think anyone in the industry would recognised that as a qualifaction at some level. My main goal of doing large comps like this is to better my portfolio but when/if I get good enough, and if I place I'll be putting it on my CV in big BOLD letters.
Dont take this the wrong way or anything but I'm not sure saying I won a Polycount comp would have as much gravitas. But lets hope the comps here do get that much recognition someday.
Whatever happens I'm still doing artwork, learning and moving forward. Thats all that counts.
anyway. Just wanted to say that.
Noo don't stroke Gavs ego anymore! You should disagree with him completely no matter what he says.
Gotta agree with most people here, noone really cares about the prizes, for people who don't have work and win its better than anything you could put on your CV, plus it's fun, it's about making art, and making amazing art at that.
Also having everyone post on there "home" forums and having to go to other forums to see the entries forced me to see these other websites I normally would have little exposure too. It always gave me an excuse to lurk around there forums, see some of the awesome work others are doing.
So personally for me I prefer to keep it on home turf forums.
Split the pressure between the forums and the DW site.
I agree thats really what differentiates DW from in-forum comps.
anywayz hopefully this will all lead to a slicker operation.
Yeah, the inter-forum stuff is great. I really only started browsing PC during DWIV because of the cross forum stuff. If not for that, I could still be making wip threads where everyone just said it was "looking good" and "coming along well". A place where the general discussion section is like a ghost town and everyone acts professional/appropriate all of the time.
Of course I was immediately won over by penis tanks and haven't looked back. PC is the only game art community for me.:)
I think most people have been upset since DW2, when Mop and Tully got more first place votes than anyone else, yet ended up like 4th or something.
If DW is to continue, maybe instead of prizes, all 'losing' forums would be required to have a logo and link to the winning forums winning entry... talk about shame
But............. then I thought wait a minute. why should they have to? why should they have to fork out all that money? I completely agree with adam and am glad that his first commitment is to polycount and its community. I think its whats lacked over at GA recently. And after reading the responses on here it makes me think that fred doesnt want it to die but nobody wants to take it on. If a business plan has failed in the past its gonna be a tough sell to get others to revamp it. His response in the letter makes it sound like DWs future is guaranteed almost and hes arranged its future with other forums over the past week, but after reading his posts on here I dont think its gonna happen. We should see DW5 continue according to Amethyst over at GA (really nice member
And Im not sure if thats a bad thing or not, maybe its time to let it die and start over with these competitions where its nice and simple and not gonna cost an arm and a leg. DW after this latest news has become more about making money to keep the contest afloat than about making cutting edge artwork and having fun, the spirit has gone for me.
I would be well up for a polycount competition with no prizes and just about making great artwork.
+1