How about them Wikileaks, eh?
polycounter lvl 10
You guys been watching the news lately? Huge uproar. Coinciding with the recent "diplomatic cables" leaks, Julian Assange the co-founder of wikileaks is possibly going to prison for rape. Two wikileaks donation accounts (one was his legal defence fund) got suspended, and the USA government wants to label him a terrorist, have him extradited from Sweden (if and when he gets there), and get him to a martial court (perfect for a "You can't handle the truth!" joke).
Some people have actually asked for him to be assassinated as if he was an enemy combatant/Al-Qaeda leader.
Wikileaks temp mirror (even their DNS host dropped them): http://213.251.145.96/
Details on his possible arrest: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/blog/2010/dec/06/julian-assange-wikileaks-latest
Details on the whole thing, including actual stories based on recent leaks of US diplomatic documents: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/wikileaks
While I wouldn't recommend it for American citizens, I would urge people who are interested in this kind of thing to donate for the cause.
http://213.251.145.96/support.html
Some people have actually asked for him to be assassinated as if he was an enemy combatant/Al-Qaeda leader.
Wikileaks temp mirror (even their DNS host dropped them): http://213.251.145.96/
Details on his possible arrest: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/blog/2010/dec/06/julian-assange-wikileaks-latest
Details on the whole thing, including actual stories based on recent leaks of US diplomatic documents: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/wikileaks
While I wouldn't recommend it for American citizens, I would urge people who are interested in this kind of thing to donate for the cause.
http://213.251.145.96/support.html
Replies
I recommend everyone take a look at this site for a little refresher on why wikileaks in important. http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/
Also, for an often missed perspective, FAIR blog reminds us that wikileaks hasn't actually leaked anything. http://www.fair.org/blog/2010/12/01/wikileaks-hasnt-leaked-anything/
Julian Assange is a journalist who has published the material on wikileaks, and the US government is essentially setting a standard where they can launch an all out attack on a journalist who publishes material from a whistle-blower.
Case in point. Why in the hell would you release this?
http://gizmodo.com/5707600/wikileaks-releases-secret-list-of-critical-infrastructure-sites
"A secret memo listing critical infrastructure facilities around the world was published by WikiLeaks on Sunday, prompting criticism that the publication could serve as a target-list for terrorists."
What does this guy really want from this? What is his agenda? Everyone has one and don't tell me he just wants people to know what is really going on.
however it's true that wikileaks holds a much stronger (bordering on extreme) stance on this than alot of people would agree with. In the past they have been under criticism for releasing documents that pertained to then recent military manoeuvres. However in this latest mega batch iirc the vast majority if not all of it is a year or two old.
I for one wouldn't defend the example you linked; It's one of the cases where wikileaks lets its ideology - and obligations this ideology imposes on them - rule. It's a thin line they tread. A lot of material goes unpublished, but that's way past a line you or I may draw.
ultimately though, I believe it's neccesary. When it comes down to it, the number of hypothetical lives wikileaks may or may not have endangered in incomparable to the number of cold hard civilan deaths due to military incompetence and immorality.
If you need any further evidence of this, http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/ refresh it, and actually look at the sources. These are things happening to real people.
Paranoid i know, just saying.
[ame]
as for wikiLeaks itself, ALL governments should be held accountable.
Sooo...he's a real life version of The Laughing Man? I swear the world gets more and more like a cyberpunk story with each passing day.
I agree with the intentions. Governments should answer for the crimes they commit. That said perhaps there are better ways of bringing such things to light other than putting innocent people's lives at risk.
Atleast I think it certainly seems like an interesting plot, governments against him, a background of cryptography and hacking. You have people debating what is right and wrong with what they(he) is doing.
The story has it's main character..is he a hero...a villian? Encrypted insurance files....the CIA... conspiracy..character assassination..companies bending to government pressure. Scandal, intrigue, sex, and drama....
When is the movie coming out?
i mean, spies....cmon, youre a spy, i feel no pity for your death.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/17/china-telecom-re-routes-15-of-the-worlds-internet-traffic-for/
April 8 China rerouted 15 min of internet traffic including that of the US government, military and a number of commercial websites (banks maybe?)
Then wikileaks happens.
Blame China?
Possibly. China probably wanted to make sure that the US was able to pay back its debt and obtain leverage. So why isn't the US pointing fingers? China holds a huge amount of debt.
Deeper conspiracy theory?
Probably not the Chinese behind the April 8th Attack, it is probably a smoke screen for the US gov leaking its own documents. They're frustrated by the lack of international cooperation on international issues and want everyone to know that what they say in private is what they say in public also that everyone else is freaked out about NK and Iran. If the US just says it through official channels everyone rolls their eyes and says "oh that's just the US being douche bags again" but if "secret documents" get released without their consent then well everyone stands up and starts talking.
Want to go even deeper?
Republicans are holding the economy back, there is more than enough money to get the economy back on its feet floating around the banks and private companies but as long as the economy is in the toilet they can make Obama look like an idiot. Elect a republican president and suddenly the money starts flowing again, everyone is back to work and the republicans take the credit for fixing the problem they solved. Wikileaks is an attempt to discredit Hillary so she doesn't run again, "the largest leak of sensitive documents happened on her watch are you really going to let her be president". The military is full of republican top brass who hate democrats...
Yea all of this is crazy bat shit nuts but as long as we're speculating wildly might as well have some fun.
fixed that for ya
It just sounds like the sort of stuff Neil Stephson and Willian Gibson promised us back in the 90's
He isnt a lone crusader as such, his job is to be the figure head of his organisation and take the flak. Not that it's a bad thing.
Some of the things wikileaks releases should not be released.
Other things they need to.
For example, a little while ago wikileaks uncovered that Britian's military agreed to store cluster bombs for the US even though this goes against treaties that they signed (cluster bombs are horrific weapons). Wikileaks uncovered that the military was going behind their gov's back to do this. This sort of thing should be released.
Wikileaks is good, but it needs some oversight. Some better selective releases. If they have a story, run with it. Don't just release ten thousand pages of shit they got their hands on.
Nice link, Muzz. ;D
Personally I'm all for whistleblower organisations like Wikileaks. I think concealing inconvenient truths in favour of contrived falsehoods and mass-ignorance has always been a detrimental force in the social evolution of humanity, maybe the greatest ever. Lies might just be the most destructive man-made force on earth. Truth should always be embraced, even when it's hard to swallow. Whistleblowers should have a public, anonymous outlet to voice their moral concerns, free from the persecution and censorship of control systems within their organisations.
Glad I got my donation in paypal before they dropped the bomb. Funny. How only now Paypal uses that excuse when wikileaks has been doing what it has for years.
The whole uproar towards him stinks of government interference in private companies.
https://www.flashback.org/t1275257
The forum is in swedish but you can probably use google translate. There is also a summary in english in the first post.
Possibly they have yet to be leaked. Certainly some have been alluded to.
What people tend to think of the leaks is very much based on what they think of their government. Some of the things released are simple gossip, some things could have been easily guessed (like how foreign leaders are really regarded (which I'll guess is generally how the people in those countries regard their own leaders anyway.)), and some things should Absolutely be in the public domain - the spying on the United Nations for example.
I don't see anything that was released that could be considered as a danger to anything other that some political careers.
Oh noes! Ahmadinejad is compared to Hitler, now the excellent relations between Iran and the US are spoilt!
Information, as such, cannot be anti anything. Also, it is worth to note that it is not merely America this collection of leaks implicate. Now, if this information reveals someone as asshats, it is hardly the publishers fault. Granted, someone should probably look closer into who is allowed to handle classified information, but perhaps more important, they should probably also think about why it stings when the truth comes out.
As for information escaping North Korea into the western media landscape hardly warrants a middle-man of the likes of wikileaks, as North Korea has no jurisdiction to demand names from news stations.
EDIT: @Lampekap, yup: http://cms.met.police.uk/news/arrests_and_charges/extradition_unit_arrest_man_on_behalf_of_the_swedish_authorities
EDIT2:
Yeah, our western constitutions are so shitty that they had to interpol a weak rape charge instead of just arresting him. I'm sorry, but I am really tired of people whining about how unjust our comfortable western lives are. We are the safest, most free people that have ever lived. We enjoy comforts that kings of the past could hardly dream about. If you think there is a problem with this world, go and fix it instead of crying about how hard you have it.
Sorry for the rant, and it is as such not directed at you, just the mentality. Had to be said, though.
A parallel to that is: "As far as I'm concerned, if the woman didn't want to be raped, she wouldn't have dressed so provocatively."
I'm no fan of the US government, but I'm never going to approve of blaming the victim for the crime. In the big picture, making the US look bad is no tragedy, but there's almost certainly some poor bastards out there who have lost or will lose their lives over the leaks - an informant outed, collateral damage in an a previously avoidable battle, etc. Other people don't deserve to die just because some army private thought it would be a great idea to dump gigs of military communications out in the open.
oh the irony.
Read about it here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/07/wikileaks-us-embassy-cables-live-updates
Fuck free speech and all that shit.
/shrug. Two wrongs still don't make a right.
No one deserves to die, but if people are going to die it should only ever be fighting for truth and not a result of others lies.
That private saw an atrocity enacted on civilians, if you have watched the tape its horrible. Even more so when you know the dead were innocent. Switch history a touch and they could have been our friends and family lying there.
Also, bad analogy. How exactly are these equal:
1. an innocent victim of sexual assault
2. individuals caught red handed being less than truthful with the people who democratically elected.
If there are inconsistencies from our governments in reporting facts and corruption within the ranks of our world leaders they can hardly cry foul for them being brought to light.
Yes it's a dangerous line to walk releasing these details and some of them are certainly worrying for international political stability but what scares me more is how easily they lie to us and how ridiculously fragile the political machine is.
In any case does anyone really think this amount of information would remain hidden forever?
Maybe its the wakeup call these arrogant leaders deserve. Play fair or get caught out...someone's watching and you ARE accountable.
Personally I'd rather know what's going on than the alternative.
As was brought up earlier, wikileaks do NOT leak the information, they are a resource for reporting on facts given up by internal whistle-blowers.
This is drastically different, they are in all accounts a news service, journalists, to start cracking down on their freedom to report the truth is encroaching right up to the front door of our personal freedoms. Democracy? Yeah right.
Why is it fine for whistle-blowers to divulge information on hospitals mistreating patients or financial big wigs committing insider trading but we aren't allowed to know about the people who's daily decisions roll the dice with the lives of the entire population of this planet?
Is it because the fact our governments have finally been caught out doing the thing we all suspected makes it all too real for people?
I for one want honesty for a change and will take its consequences, people hiding from it just become a burden on the rest of us.
When 100% of people want change but only 2% have the balls to demand it the 2% often get persecuted.
If 98% demand it..change happens.
BTW, what are the 3 principles America is apparently founded on again?
Truth, Liberty and justice..... Just saying.
The analogy is fine. We're not talking about the ends here, but the means. A crime isn't justified because the victim made the crime so attractive, whether it's theft of information or sexual assault. If the assault analogy is too remote to work, let's go financial.
If an insider at a major credit firm had hacked your credit card info online, claiming it was done with the good intention of 'exposing the security flaws in the financial sector', you're not going to tell me you deserved to get screwed and thank the hacker, you're going to blame the asshole who dropped a text file with your Visa number on the web. Even if your bank does have poor security, you sure don't "deserve" to be a victim. The bank needs to upgrade its security, but the guilty party is still the hacker, not the bank.
just as you don't deserve to have your Visa numbers outed because your bank has a hacker working for them, people who work with the US don't deserve to die because the government has an army private who broke his oath by leaking docs to Julian Assange. Maybe it's good that the info has come out, but "deserve" has got nothing to do with it.
think about the crimes you say wikileaks has commited.
1. Wikileaks did not steal any documents, information, or hack anything. People working in these organizations stole the information and brought it to wikileaks to PUBLISH.
2. Wikileaks goes through enormous measures to verify the accuracy of their sources. WHAT YOU ARE READING ABOUT HAS ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Wikileaks is uncovering things that people are LIVING through day to day in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Al Qaeda is really strapping children with explosives. Our armed forces are being killed in friendly fire incidents. Civilians with families and friends are being killed in conflict areas.
The issue is that the government has been suppressing this information because it's BAD PRESS.
^This^
The US government needs to look in a mirror, and plug the leaks. Would I prefer to keep some of these documents secret? Sure. I don't want to give terrorists an open list of targets. But, our government should be securing those locations, rather than taking nude photos of every American that walks through an airport.
Also, for all those waving their American flag, are we not the country that preaches free speech everywhere?
You do realise Hitler used information suppression as a tool.
Information suppression is why North Korea is the way it is.
It's historically the same way religion has controlled masses.
If you're siding that information shouldn't be freely available, then you're essentially fundamentally siding with the side believes the internet should be censored, like China (whos citizens do not have basic human rights).
This hunt for jullian assange and the way they do it is just sickening. Yet another reminder that you really don't have anything to say at all and that the so called freedom of some is a big lie.
Changing the world is hard, but getting mad at one guy is easy.
See also: chasing Bin Laden instead of fighting fundamentalism
But it doesn't matter if Wikileaks dies because the cat is out of the bag now. A dozen organizations will rise up to replace it, and a dozen more for each of those which are shut down. In a month or two the mass media will find that it doesn't drive ratings anymore and suddenly everyone will simultaneously shut up about it and go back to talking about celebrity scandals and iStuff.
The thing is, Wikileaks does review documents before release, and spies/informants/soldiers don't die over these types of leaks. It just doesn't happen, and these things are said pretty much every time Wikileaks publishes something. It's a shame too.
I also found it interesting that Republicans are calling Assange and Wikileaks "Terrorist". That says something about how the governments throw around the word "terrorist"
The United States is pleased to announce that it will host UNESCO's World Press Freedom Day event in 2011 ...
The United States places technology and innovation at the forefront of its diplomatic and development efforts. New media has empowered citizens around the world to report on their circumstances, express opinions on world events, and exchange information in environments sometimes hostile to such exercises of individuals' right to freedom of expression. At the same time, we are concerned about the determination of some governments to censor and silence individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information.
Here's a sample of their logic:
It's nice to see someone with the balls to stand up to the governments of the world and expose what they really are. Governments should be held accountable for their actions by the people who vote them into office. American's just don't care anymore. I wish we would riot like the French do when the government tries to screw their people over. American's don't have the balls.
Pretty soon we are going to be living in a Fahrenheit 451 world, if we are not living in one already.
I'm disappointed some of these leaks haven't caused the uproar they should have. Maybe it's just due to the flood of the information, but I'm guessing the media is just ignoring most of it and hoping it will all blow over.
For example: the Apache video; showing the shooting of innocent children and journalists seems to have made a lot less impact than those pictures showing iraqis being abused and decorated like christmas trees in Abu Ghraib.
And Hillary Clinton ordering members of the UN to be spied upon? To me that seems more of reason to get fired than her husband getting some R&R in the Oval office.
I think it's a good thing that Assange turned himself in, hopefully this will reveal the (most probably) false allegations against him, and make some people realise how free they really are.
"The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the
very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to
me to decide whether we should have a government without
newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not
hesitate a moment to prefer the latter." --Thomas Jefferson to
Edward Carrington, 1787.
Once again Jefferson, Thank you!
Cause the current Democrat president is a peace-lover?
Military budget is bigger than ever. Same'ol wars. I guess Obama is a republican now...