As someone who is yearning for feedback, you need to give a reason for someone to take the time to offer your a critique.
Are you someone who has shown they're eager to learn? Applies what they are told? Listens and adapts their processes to the suggestions being offered to you?
Or do you post your work that is a work-in-progress, very amateur in comparison, offer very little by way of explanation to process, and never explains what it is you want help with? Many, many people who do not receive feedback of comments from the community do a poor job of asking for help. Yes, it can be painfully obvious at times that someone needs help or is struggling. However, when the post content is shallow, so will the reaction from the community.
Whenever I make posts to polycount that are NOT in the WAYWO thread, I try and explain everything. I put all my cards on the table. I show my process. I show my failures. I show my successes. If I need help with something, I ask for what that help is specifically. Now, I haven't posted a project in a very long time, but when I was doing that regularly that was my process. I would often get all the help I needed, with very insightful discussions on top of that. Does that have something to do with the fact that I manage the community? Sure. But I do think that much of the discussions & critiques I get came from the fact that I knew exactly what it was I needed help with, laid those cards out, and listened to the feedback I was getting.
So, while yes there are many "average" posts that get missed, I think its mostly to do with the content of the post itself and not the ability of the artist.
Adam, isn't this becoming indicative of a population that more and more turns to the brevity of learning from the shortest possible video tutorials and using abbreviations and acronyms to quickly text the minimal amount of information that conveys the greatest amount of meaning? I've seen many a post in other forums where the process is nearly reduced to someone posting an image and expecting that others intuit that it is there for feedback and tips.
What becomes more interesting for me is that from my perspective the demands of the technological world will have us working with more software across a diversity of disciplines bridging geographical divides. If this is truly happening, as I suspect is rather obvious to all, then the requirement of developing/evolving artists will be that they will have to communicate across industry lines, not only cultural ones. Musicians talking with compositors, riggers learning from graphic artists, sculptors heeding the advice of projection mapping artists who are taking cues from modelers outside their shores.
It's like Heinlein said, "Specialization is for insects." We are emerging out of the age of specialization where computers didn't allow us the luxury of working in 3D Studio, Photoshop, Substance Designer, Lightroom, and 3D-Coat simultaneously. As we become generalists due to this increased flexibility, it is an imperative that our ability to communicate more effectively matures.
I hope you keep this dialogue going and encourage your readers to participate and expand those communication skills. After living in Europe for 10 years, I can tell you that collaborating artists working between two dozen countries do not like working with people who cannot convey their ideas and articulate themselves as rational adults; even when working through the difficulties of having a dozen different languages shared between them.
This is insightful, adam. I was assuming that most artists prefer tl:dr and don't like WIP threads with more than few lines text, so always tried to keep explanations to minimum. Will need to try as you suggest next time I update my WIP thread.
As someone who tends to get little feedback in my threads most of time, I can offer a two-step advice for those who are stuck in same situation. Captain Obvious mode: ON!
1. An artist you know (who knows you well enough) is more likely to give you good, in-depth feedback, esp when asked personally. Yep, another bonus of networking Just keep in mind that a professional analysis (when you get in-depth responses) is still a privilege, so never abuse it (by asking for it too often, insisting when declined etc) and respect time of your friends and colleagues.
2. Make best use of feedback you got. If people see you ignore their crits, they're much less likely to give you crit next time. OTOH, if they see you've used their previous crits and made significant progress, your chances of getting more good feedback are slightly higher.
Bonus points if you Pay It Forward by giving some feedback to others when they need it. Just make sure you understand the topic well, incorrect crits/advices might do more harm than good.
Adam, isn't this becoming indicative of a population that more and more turns to the brevity of learning from the shortest possible video tutorials and using abbreviations and acronyms to quickly text the minimal amount of information that conveys the greatest amount of meaning? I've seen many a post in other forums where the process is nearly reduced to someone posting an image and expecting that others intuit that it is there for feedback and tips.
What becomes more interesting for me is that from my perspective the demands of the technological world will have us working with more software across a diversity of disciplines bridging geographical divides. If this is truly happening, as I suspect is rather obvious to all, then the requirement of developing/evolving artists will be that they will have to communicate across industry lines, not only cultural ones. Musicians talking with compositors, riggers learning from graphic artists, sculptors heeding the advice of projection mapping artists who are taking cues from modelers outside their shores.
It's like Heinlein said, "Specialization is for insects." We are emerging out of the age of specialization where computers didn't allow us the luxury of working in 3D Studio, Photoshop, Substance Designer, Lightroom, and 3D-Coat simultaneously. As we become generalists due to this increased flexibility, it is an imperative that our ability to communicate more effectively matures.
I hope you keep this dialogue going and encourage your readers to participate and expand those communication skills. After living in Europe for 10 years, I can tell you that collaborating artists working between two dozen countries do not like working with people who cannot convey their ideas and articulate themselves as rational adults; even when working through the difficulties of having a dozen different languages shared between them.
This is beautifully written, thanks for the response. I cannot speak to other communities and how or why they act different from our own. My reply was specific to Polycount, and understanding the community to ensure you get the best results possible for your efforts.
Should it be that any thread is open to critique and pereceived as such? Yes. And I think it is, in fact. But, I believe that because of this there is too much of an opening for broad stroke feedback, nothing specific to the work in question. If the artist/author can articulate what it is they're specifically looking for help on, then it at least narrows the gap and givens the community a direction to point their feedback at.
I'm definitely guilty of short messages in my WIP thread... I never thought that was why I hardly ever get replies. I always felt I just posted at a bad time, or my work was just not interesting. It makes a lot more sense now that I really think about it, it's hard to comment on someone WIP when they don't talk about how they got there.
I'm going to really start putting a lot of time into describing my process and especially bring up specific issues in my flow.
Thanks Adam, I saw this the other day and had a good chuckle with my roommate saying it was a perfect description of my thread here:
Another thing I use to do years ago was make my post, then link it to people I specifically wanted to hear from. Be proactive and don't assume folks are going to jump at the chance to write you critique when they don't know you, how you work, and how you learn.
Also, I don't like that graph image because it indicates that noobs are annoying, when that is rarely the case. Unless they're annoying because they are noobs, to which I have no comment.
- While I agree with you on all counts - everything you said being spot-on - I still think you're taking for-granted your own maturity, artistic maturity and otherwise.
I put all my cards on the table. I show my process. I show my failures. I show my successes. If I need help with something, I ask for what that help is specifically.
And this is great, but it's not something most beginning artists are capable of. They simply don't know. They don't know what their process is, because their process is 'do stuff to make nice stuff'. They don't know what their failures are, because knowing what you do poorly from the stuff you do well is almost impossible to diagnose early on in the learning stages, at least until your 'art eyes' catch up with your artistic ability.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just diagnosing the symptom. If we are waiting for all beginning artists to become mature artists before they are helped, than we aren't helping anyone. So while what you wrote is great, it's idealistic to expect that a beginning artist is even going to know how to approach following that advice.
And for the record, I am super guilty of this lately. Not that I am the most amazing artist, but I know enough to leave critiques and advice in some cases. Critiquing is hard. It takes thought and time. Beyond freelance and doing my own stuff, when I get on polycount at the end of the night, I rarely have enough energy to leave comments longer than a sentence. The problem with that is the only two comments you can leave with a sentence are "wow, that's awesome", or "wow, that's horrible", and obviously I'm not going to leave the latter comment to anyone, but I don't necessarily have the time to leave a paragraph or two of critique.
@ Unity2k
Adam, isn't this becoming indicative of a population that more and more turns to the brevity of learning from the shortest possible video tutorials and using abbreviations and acronyms to quickly text the minimal amount of information that conveys the greatest amount of meaning? I've seen many a post in other forums where the process is nearly reduced to someone posting an image and expecting that others intuit that it is there for feedback and tips.
There will always be lazy people out there, but I think in the same paragraph that you use to (rightly) dismiss them, you are also dismissing a very powerful tool, which isn't fair.
Short tutorial videos are an extremely powerful tool. Am I suddenly lazy because I don't go to an hour long lecture class about using software? No. In fact I'd argue I get a whole lot more out of 'short tutorials', simply by the way my time is structured when I am learning that way.
I don't know something. I watch a 3 minute video. I try out what I have learned. I succeed or I fail, and I either continue or I repeat. I watch, I actively try, I watch, I actively try, it's a very progressive model for learning in my opinion. It's not lazy, it's just new(ish).
I can tell you that collaborating artists working between two dozen countries do not like working with people who cannot convey their ideas and articulate themselves as rational adults
Very well put. Communication is an ignored skill. Clarity is harder and harder to come by.
Short tutorial videos are an extremely powerful tool. Am I suddenly lazy because I don't go to an hour long lecture class about using software? No. In fact I'd argue I get a whole lot more out of 'short tutorials', simply by the way my time is structured when I am learning that way.
I don't know something. I watch a 3 minute video. I try out what I have learned. I succeed or I fail, and I either continue or I repeat. I watch, I actively try, I watch, I actively try, it's a very progressive model for learning in my opinion. It's not lazy, it's just new(ish).
I too use those very valuable tools, I wanted to point out (without casting aspersions) that we are and have been conditioning ourselves with brevity. This situation is simply a symptom of where we have gone and where we are. There have been some great points here about the maturity and stage of where young artists are and how they develop, it is with further examples and a continued dialog that others will learn; there's another way.
So in addition to Adam elevating the conversation, I say thanks to you too for adding your thoughts and helping me clarify mine.
I always felt that if people are gonna take time out of their busy day to help me for free, I should probably listen and appreciate the shit out of anything I get.
But who wants real critique nowadays? Go to bed, sleep, and for the next day ask yourself whad did you do bad, easy. If you don't see bad things, you are stucked.
In the forums all what i see are some lads/teens wanting pats on the back, expecting something similar like when their parents say: attaboy! attagirl!, and just words for magnifiying their ego, recognition. Want recognition?, compare your work with others and don't ask.
I customed to give serious critique but now... i don't give a shit for anyone, because you effort yourself helping others (losing your precious time), and at the end, they will do whatever they like. They won't hear you or they won't accept any advice/critique.
Only a few ones ask in their threads things like: how good is the anatomy? can i make a better topology? etc. Instead of that, i read: "hi, this is my latest work, blah blah blah". So don't expect critique nor a bath of masses saying how cool you are (because you may be an average joe ).
You can be very clear with your critique, though there are always some guys (if not a majority) that needs images with an overpaint or a direct retouch on their model if the overpaint wasn't enough.
And beware, there are too many cheeky around these forums expeting to learn easily. Don't tutor anyone!.
Blaizer, I definitely see where you're coming from. There have definitely been times when I've spent over an hour analyzing someone's work, and typing up a thorough, thoughtful critique, only to be completely ignored. It hurts and is definitely discouraging. With all of that being said, I learn a lot for myself throughout the process of giving a critique. Giving a good critique is a skill - an exercise in analysis, organization of thought, and communication.
Lately, I tend to be more picky with who I will spend that time on, but even if my advice appears to have been ignored, I try to look at a critique as if it is a learning experience for myself. It helps to soften the blow when your advice falls on deaf ears.
If you take 30min giving a good critic, and the guy just doesn't give a f..., the next guy is maybe not going to have the chance of having a good critic too.
And that's too bad
" But who wants real critique nowadays?" "In the forums all what i see are some lads/teens wanting pats on the back"
True , and it's a shame... I think some people just want to hear (and I know some in this case) "Great! Good job" over and over.
It's rewarding 5 sec, but their not going to progress with this kind of words.
It's part of the job of an artist to learn to take critics in a good way, and use it, I guess.
I really want to be able to give "good'' critism, but I'm not comfortable enough in english right now. But I'll do my best now.
For me it's frustrating to not receive reponses on my threads , I don't know what to think afterwards, if it's bad or not etc. Mainly when I see others thread having a lot of love
But now, with this actual thread, I understand that asking for a specific point, or giving more infos on what I'm doing will help people.
I'll try to be better at this, it's a good exercise to decorticate my workflow.
Wow Blazier, that's very pessimistic. Might as well give up on everyone because you've had a few bad experiences, and tell others to give up as well.
Polycount is a seriously great community and many, many artists have improved based on the crits and advice here. I'm one of them. I came over from CGtalk where you occasionally got good advice, but the comments were fewer and farther between.
What I found on polycount was indescribably better. I've got a thread going for 20 pages or somthing now. One of the first people who replied to me was MM, one of my CG heros. Seriously he took the time to critique my anatomy, and he kept popping up telling me in no uncertain terms what was good and what was bad, and went further to tell me about my habits and what I needed to change.
Tom parker (crazyfool) was doing paintovers. Pior took pictures of himself to make comparisons and help me pick out the problems in my structure. This is not to mention many other good artists who joined in. There is absolutely no way I am where I am now without polycount, those guys, and all the others.
And it's not like they were only in my thread. You see them everywhere. Whatever you want to do in games, there are people on polycount with the knowledge and resources to help, and there are a lot of beginning artists here who take the help and use it and apply it, and are massively thankful for it. Yeah, there's a couple of people who get frustrating, but it's not really as often as you're saying, and really I don't like seeing the negativity on your end, it's just as frustrating.
because you effort yourself helping others (losing your precious time), and at the end, they will do whatever they like. They won't hear you or they won't accept any advice/critique.
Why let some ruin it for everyone? If you notice previous crits have been ignored then don't give critique. If they seem like they genuinely want critique then why hold back?
I don't think helping others is a waste of time; in fact helping others can benefit you too. Sometimes you'll try to explain something and you'll realise you don't understand it well enough yourself. Sometimes you'll get new ideas while making suggestions.
Also not every suggestion HAS to be incorporated. What if you have a legitimate reason to not follow some advice, like it would change the style you were aiming for? That doesn't mean you're ignoring critique, you're just choosing not to take that path. In this case though it would be nice to explain your reasoningso it's clear you're not ignoring advice.
Why let some ruin it for everyone? If you notice previous crits have been ignored then don't give critique. If they seem like they genuinely want critique then why hold back?
I don't think helping others is a waste of time; in fact helping others can benefit you too. Sometimes you'll try to explain something and you'll realise you don't understand it well enough yourself. Sometimes you'll get new ideas while making suggestions.
Also not every suggestion HAS to be incorporated. What if you have a legitimate reason to not follow some advice, like it would change the style you were aiming for? That doesn't mean you're ignoring critique, you're just choosing not to take that path. In this case though it would be nice to explain your reasoningso it's clear you're not ignoring advice.
That's what i used to do over cgtlak 7 years ago . If previous critics were ignored, there wasn't any reason to lose time.
Helping others may be good if you are still a rookie, still learning. But believe me, when you know how to do all the things, you are only wasting time. You will notice that when you get older.
In my experience there's no point solving problems to others, and more when you see they are just lazy-asses. I think is better for all people to mature with time and effort, and not asking in a forum/blog the most simplest things we can learn hitting f1. People must learn to reason, to solve problems.
Most critiques are related to anatomy/proportions, and it's suprising to see people asking for advice when the only thing they need to do, is to pick references. And it's frustrating when you put references to help them, and sometimes they get angry because they think they did all good (due to their silly ego).
And of course... not all suggestions must be incorporated, but if we are pointed we have a proportion error.. that's another case. And that's what i mean. I never wrote a critique with things related to our taste. I think those kind of suggestions does not help anything, because "for tastes... colors".
The last time i gave technical advise was in the thread of "how do you model dem shapes". EQ replied me with very bad manners because i also was posting another ways to solve the problems, and i said myself, "ok, i don't need a hill, so you can be the king of the hill". When you see such ungrateful people, you lose interest in helping others.
The last time i gave technical advise was in the thread of "how do you model dem shapes". EQ replied me with very bad manners because i also was posting another ways to solve the problems, and i said myself, "ok, i don't need a hill, so you can be the king of the hill". When you see such ungrateful people, you lose interest in helping others.
I think the main issue is that you don't express yourself very well. I take it English isn't your first language, but oftentimes you come off as thinking your way is the only right way, and you can be too rough with your words. It's offputting and seems arrogant, and I think that's typically what leads to those sorts of misunderstandings.
For instance, just above. I don't think you meant your comment in the way Stromberg90 took it, but it felt like you meant it that way.
To the new comers don't get discouraged, everything is a process and when I,we,he,she,they have time to comment we will. Otherwise I kind of have to agree with the praise puppies that get a ton of comments in their threads (lot of butt patting) they really don't need. Sorry puppies.
Perhaps this is why a lot of users feel alienated? Half the time I will critic myself though It will just take a lot longer and I suggest every user wanting critics to do the same before and after posting, don't wait for anyone as stated time is precious. (I used to have a bad habit of checking for feedback as well, do not do that you will get stuck on threads and not do any work and end up on youtube!)
To the CgTalk commenter I went over there like maybe 2 - 3 times and didn't get much help at all It felt "elitist", so saying what your saying I can say I've been to both and I've posted at a lot of other locations to "test the waters", and Pc always came through, I have yet to get comments at other locations, cool eh?
Anyway, again new comers don't take all the negativity to seriously or the comments that you should re-work your design even if you think you don't need to fix a thing.
In reality you do nothing is ever finished, especially to us, you know It, I know It, they know It.
Work harder is about all the useful comments I can say right now and my sig.
It also helps if you ASK for critique. Sometimes people just post a thread with some work in it and you're never sure if they want feedback or not. Be explicit.
I think the main issue is that you don't express yourself very well. I take it English isn't your first language, but oftentimes you come off as thinking your way is the only right way, and you can be too rough with your words. It's offputting and seems arrogant, and I think that's typically what leads to those sorts of misunderstandings.
For instance, just above. I don't think you meant your comment in the way Stromberg90 took it, but it felt like you meant it that way.
Yep, i'm not a native english speaker.
Also, I don't understand why you say "oftentimes" and that "i think my way is the only right way"... that's a bad assumption. And with that issue i had in that thread, i NEVER said my way was the only way (i just put another methods).
So, I find ridiculous what you said because i'm not the type of guys that create a thread entitled: "you are doing it wrong!". Maybe, you notice what i mean, and you'll see where lies the arrogance, not on me.
Stromberg90 just distorted what i said quoting a part of the text, and he did another bad assumption like you (you read words not written). I never reply that kind of comments.
Back to the point, when someone is fed up of the same, is normal to stop giving advices or comments and that's what i did. And like me, a lot of people.
BTW, the community don't lose anything if i don't support some guys asking for help.
This is a really interesting topic. It feels as though there is a kind of hierarchy, that you can not and should not critique someone who is better than yourself. So if you're new there's not alot of people you feel like you can critique, so all you can do is praise the crazy good artists, which is also very easy and not at all time consuming.
On the other hand, there's so many threads you just open and close within a few seconds. As if you already know that you don't like what you're seeing and that's that. Why? I don't know.
As a rookie ANY reply means the WORLD to me. I'm sure alot of new people fall into the same trap as I do. Before I even start a thread I get super defensive and it may take a week to even process the idea before I post the thread, at this point I have to be quick before I change my mind about the whole idea.
Then you think about it constantly " What if they say I'm no good?! ", then you have to spend the next day refreshing the page like a mad man, waking up the next morning. "Have they said anything?! ". And when the thread reaches page 3 you die a bit inside.
Everytime I see someone bump their own thread an hour after posting it I really feel for them. But do I post? No. Why? I actually don't know :S I'll start doing that, right now.
Helping others may be good if you are still a rookie, still learning. But believe me, when you know how to do all the things, you are only wasting time. You will notice that when you get older.
I'm sorry Blazier but I have to agree with Stromberg90. That's a really messed up mentality to have. You should give advice if you're a rookie, while the professionals should not give advice? Then how the hell do we improve as a community if the most experienced artists don't help? Maybe you meant something else but that's what I got out of it.
Most of the time a quick reply with any sort of critique will go a long way. But if you decide to make a paintover and take the time, that will require alot of patience. Think like a teacher. You can't explain something ONCE to a student and, if he/she doesn't get it, just blow them off. And don't sit on a high horse either, as if your time is so extremely precious that a newbie should thrive just to have you in their thread.
I'm sorry Blazier but I have to agree with Stromberg90. That's a really messed up mentality to have. You should give advice if you're a rookie, while the professionals should not give advice? Then how the hell do we improve as a community if the most experienced artists don't help? Maybe you meant something else but that's what I got out of it.
nice way to distort my words . And i'm said english it's not my first language... incredible.
I'm not saying that man. If you read well, what is said was as response to Bek, he pointed me this: "in fact helping others can benefit you too". And i'm not agree with that unless if you are a rookie or a noob. I hope it's clear now because man... what a way of taking things out of context
When i was younger, I didn't need the help of a community to learn. You can learn by yourself: first, reading the user guide of any program, and secondly, by yourself again, buying DVDs, books, reading tutorials, etc. (these would be only for the technical aspect).
And like i said, most users don't post for a real critique but for a showcase. Each day there are new users in these forums, and they tend to ask the same things several times. They don't bother to use the search function, nor reading the user reference/guide, nor worrying in looking for references.
NOBODY will teach you how to be a good artist (or better), nor paying in a school, nor in a forum. You must work/train everyday. And that's a fact...
Edit: And you can't expect others to solve all your problems.
Just want to chime in about the native language thing. I'm on the same boat as you man - even after years of reading and conversing, sometimes things can still be awkwardly phrased and therefore misunderstood. But as non-native speakers I think it's up to us to make the effort of re-reading our posts and editing them if needed, to make sure that our point gets across clearly ... *especially* here on Polycount, where native speakers are kind enough to politely ask non-native english speakers to maybe rephrase their statements in order to make sure that everybody is on the same page.
I must say I too am confused by your statement :
Helping others may be good if you are still a rookie, still learning. But believe me, when you know how to do all the things, you are only wasting time. You will notice that when you get older.
So correct me if I am wrong, but the way I understand your quote above is : "Rookies should be helping others artists ; All-knowing people (whatever that means...) should not be helping other artists, because by doing so they are wasting their time"
Is that really what you mean ? If we lived in a world where education and guidance were only being delivered by rookies I don't think we would be going very far ... Isn't an experienced teacher more useful than someone who has no clue what he/she is talking about ? Now sure enough, many things can be learned without a teacher. But that's another subject altogether.
And I am not sure to understand how seasoned vets are wasting their time by giving critique - isn't it up to the individual to decide wether or not something is a waste of their time ?
I am firmly convinced that seasoned vets can learn a lot by giving critiques to newcomers politely asking for guidance. It's a bit of an investment. If the question is well formulated, it often creates a healthy discussion, and the result is a gain of confidence for the artist willing to acknowledge his/her shortcoming and learn from them. Later on that person feels more comfortable communicating with others, and great things can happen from there. It is mostly obvious with real-life interactions, but online communication can cause that to happen too, and that's great ! Of course if the "rookie" is a stubborn, annoying person, it's not worth it. But if the questions are humble and clearly formulated, great things can happen !
The irony is strong here - I think it is awesome that people are willing to "waste their time" pointing out the misunderstandings caused by language in this thread, because at the end of the day, addressing the issue straight on can only make things better for everyone involved ...
nice way to distort my words . And i'm said english it's not my first language... incredible.
I'm not saying that man. If you read well, what is said was as response to Bek, he pointed me this: "in fact helping others can benefit you too". And i'm not agree with that unless if you are a rookie or a noob. I hope it's clear now because man... what a way of taking things out of context
Ok, now I understand the context. I get that it's frustrating, but you can't really blame others for the misunderstanding. I am sorry, though.
I don't think it's such a bad thing for "rookies" to post just to showcase. It's still a big step to take, as I tried to illustrate. It heartbreaking when no one replies, when you put your dream, heart and soul on display.
I agree to some extent. Those that progress to become great artists need to do that by their own power. But is it too much to ask to get a nod or a pat on the back while you make the climb?
I'd just like to add a bit to the discussion from the perspective of someone that is still learning. It may only be tangentially related to the most recent posts, but I think it might help to understand what a beginner might be going through.
There is a world of difference between the learning materials available online (manuals, books, videos, etc.) and the targeted advice dispensed by an experienced professional. Of course, for the vast majority of the basics, beginners should seek out the former before expecting the latter, but there is a ton of information out there, and a lot of it is sub-par. For a new artist, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to tell the difference between a good resource and a poor one. My personal struggle with this problem is what motivates me to give advice where I can.
Often, if I am struggling with a particular piece, it is not immediately apparent where my most significant shortcoming lies. I just know that my work is not where I would like it to be, and not much else. If it is apparent, I may not be familiar enough with the subject to know which terms to type into Google to find the most relevant resources. Its not that I'm too lazy to search, I just have no idea where to even begin, and I think a large majority of beginners find themselves in this type of situation at one point or another. In these cases, some of the best feedback sounds something like this:
"The weakest part of your work is X. Improvement in this area will bring your work to the next level. Here is an excellent article that I have bookmarked that covers exactly that topic..."
or
"You work is significantly lacking in [this broad area]. This can be simplified by breaking it down into [these components]. Start with [this resource] for the basics, and then once you're comfortable with that, look [here] for more advanced techniques."
Neither of those responses require a ton of effort, but they highlight problems with the work, as well as provide a course of action for self-improvement. Those that are sufficiently motivated will thank you for your time and dive right into the linked resources with a new-found sense of direction. Those that are not serious will never be heard from again.
Pior, sometimes it's hard to express some things, but i think i was enough clear :S.
If you follow the context of my reply, you should understand why i said that, and you should not make any assumption as the others. I already replied Jakob to clarify my point.
I'm seeing you guys don't read the whole conversation, just only some parts.
So correct me if I am wrong, but the way I understand your quote above is : "Rookies should be helping others artists ; All-knowing people (whatever that means...) should not be helping other artists, because by doing so they are wasting their time"
Someone still learning "might" be helping others, sharing experiences, tips they have discovered with practice, etc.
All-knowing people is a term i did not say. I used a conditional phrase: "when/if YOU know how to do all the things".
I would not say "should", because it sounds like a "must". Nobody here is forced to do anything. To give or not to give advice/help is up to us.
When you have more than 10 years of experience, in modelling for example, you won't find much help in a forum (too many vets are no longer active in the forum, right?). I don't see any benefits helping people, seriously, and more if they are ungrateful.
"Helping others may be good if you are still a rookie, still learning. But believe me, when you know how to do all the things, you are only wasting time. You will notice that when you get older."
What I read is:
"If u r a rookie, helping others may help you. For me, helping others is a waste of my time, because I know how to do all the things."
What Stomberg said was a stretching this cynically.
What Blazier said to Pior was emphasizing "YOU" as to avoid saying oh it's me who knows all. But really, Blazier... give it a rest
The bottom line is, say ur personal opinion and avoid making 'declarations' that put others in your spot.
My opinion on helping noobs: "the teacher is always the student".
What I read is:
"If u r a rookie, helping others may help you. For me, helping others is a waste of my time, because I know how to do all the things."
Bad, too bad ¬¬. You don't read well, nor my nickname... it's bla-i-zer, not bla-zi-er man. Like to expect you to understand what i say, it's impossible! :nerd:
Bad, too bad ¬¬. You don't read well, nor my nickname... it's bla-i-zer, not bla-zi-er man. Like to expect you to understand what i say, it's impossible! :nerd:
"Emphasizing you"... omfg, give me a break.
edit: I re-read shotgun was on point, ohh ho!
*Carry on*
Nice sketchbook don't let the dota2 people see it. lol
So to me it seems that there are usually 3 different types of replies: Praise, critique, and tech help.
If an average person comes in, shows some average art and expects praise - they will get nothing. If they come in and ask for critique, they may get something, maybe from a great artist, maybe from another average artist, but it can be helpful.
Where I find value in polycount is the experienced artists who often times are the people WHO MAKE YOUR FAVORITE GAMES FOR A LIVING. Every experienced artist I have privately messaged has offered up help and advice without attitude, doing the best they can to share what they know.
I think it's important to come to polycount and look around for a while first, find out who is who, what they know and their GENERAL ATTITUDE. It shouldn't be anyone's thought while they are lurking, waiting to make their first art post, that they will come right in and blow everyone away with their work that THEY SHOULD KNOW is not the best.
For example, not only does he have tutorials on his website if you just look, but I would bet that if a person politely and respectfully private messaged Blaizer he would do what he could to help them out. The same goes for everyone here.
It makes sense to come into polycount and be a part of the community before expecting anything in return.
To continue with Blaizer's point, there's definitely an element of helping yourself when giving advice to others. I'd wager that holds true at any skill level, though.
In the same vein as the addage "if you want to really understand something, teach it to an idiot". It's easy to know stuff, but if you want to understand the reasons behind it at a fundamental level, it helps to try and teach it to other people. You have to break the idea down into discrete, understandable chunks and forces you to fill in any gaps you may have in your own understanding or knowledge.
The same thing that takes a tutorial from being a set of recipe steps (not useful unless you're only ever going to do that same thing over and over) to actually dispensing useful information that's applicable in any situation. It takes it from the what to the why.
Most of us understand what normal maps do, but not many of us really understand how they do it. I have to confess, I didn't until I had to sit down and teach an idiot (the computer - or myself, you decide :P) how to calculate them.
I don't blame anyone who doesn't like helping noobs, but that's not how I feel. I've gotten so much help from other people and I'm so grateful for it, that I feel a need to pass it on to someone else. Give something back
I can totaly releate to blaizers point, not to say im all knowing, but the better you get the less you lern from helping others, so its becoming even more of just a nice gesture, therefore you want something back, makes sense.
anyways, something I think we havnt talked about here at all yet, is the other thread readers, not just the OP and the one giving the advice. even though the OP is ignoring the paintover/crit or whatever advice there is, everyone else reading through the thread might still gain from it. for exemple Ive learned tons from lurking in ysalex anatomy thread
I guess my point here is, there are still a lot of other pll who can benefit from advice then the OP.
Replies
As someone who is yearning for feedback, you need to give a reason for someone to take the time to offer your a critique.
Are you someone who has shown they're eager to learn? Applies what they are told? Listens and adapts their processes to the suggestions being offered to you?
Or do you post your work that is a work-in-progress, very amateur in comparison, offer very little by way of explanation to process, and never explains what it is you want help with? Many, many people who do not receive feedback of comments from the community do a poor job of asking for help. Yes, it can be painfully obvious at times that someone needs help or is struggling. However, when the post content is shallow, so will the reaction from the community.
Whenever I make posts to polycount that are NOT in the WAYWO thread, I try and explain everything. I put all my cards on the table. I show my process. I show my failures. I show my successes. If I need help with something, I ask for what that help is specifically. Now, I haven't posted a project in a very long time, but when I was doing that regularly that was my process. I would often get all the help I needed, with very insightful discussions on top of that. Does that have something to do with the fact that I manage the community? Sure. But I do think that much of the discussions & critiques I get came from the fact that I knew exactly what it was I needed help with, laid those cards out, and listened to the feedback I was getting.
So, while yes there are many "average" posts that get missed, I think its mostly to do with the content of the post itself and not the ability of the artist.
2 cents.
What becomes more interesting for me is that from my perspective the demands of the technological world will have us working with more software across a diversity of disciplines bridging geographical divides. If this is truly happening, as I suspect is rather obvious to all, then the requirement of developing/evolving artists will be that they will have to communicate across industry lines, not only cultural ones. Musicians talking with compositors, riggers learning from graphic artists, sculptors heeding the advice of projection mapping artists who are taking cues from modelers outside their shores.
It's like Heinlein said, "Specialization is for insects." We are emerging out of the age of specialization where computers didn't allow us the luxury of working in 3D Studio, Photoshop, Substance Designer, Lightroom, and 3D-Coat simultaneously. As we become generalists due to this increased flexibility, it is an imperative that our ability to communicate more effectively matures.
I hope you keep this dialogue going and encourage your readers to participate and expand those communication skills. After living in Europe for 10 years, I can tell you that collaborating artists working between two dozen countries do not like working with people who cannot convey their ideas and articulate themselves as rational adults; even when working through the difficulties of having a dozen different languages shared between them.
As someone who tends to get little feedback in my threads most of time, I can offer a two-step advice for those who are stuck in same situation. Captain Obvious mode: ON!
1. An artist you know (who knows you well enough) is more likely to give you good, in-depth feedback, esp when asked personally. Yep, another bonus of networking
2. Make best use of feedback you got. If people see you ignore their crits, they're much less likely to give you crit next time. OTOH, if they see you've used their previous crits and made significant progress, your chances of getting more good feedback are slightly higher.
Bonus points if you Pay It Forward by giving some feedback to others when they need it. Just make sure you understand the topic well, incorrect crits/advices might do more harm than good.
Hope this helps someone \o/
This is beautifully written, thanks for the response. I cannot speak to other communities and how or why they act different from our own. My reply was specific to Polycount, and understanding the community to ensure you get the best results possible for your efforts.
Should it be that any thread is open to critique and pereceived as such? Yes. And I think it is, in fact. But, I believe that because of this there is too much of an opening for broad stroke feedback, nothing specific to the work in question. If the artist/author can articulate what it is they're specifically looking for help on, then it at least narrows the gap and givens the community a direction to point their feedback at.
About 3 years late... give or take. Don't worry, you will get em next time.
I'm going to really start putting a lot of time into describing my process and especially bring up specific issues in my flow.
Thanks Adam, I saw this the other day and had a good chuckle with my roommate saying it was a perfect description of my thread here:
Also, I don't like that graph image because it indicates that noobs are annoying, when that is rarely the case. Unless they're annoying because they are noobs, to which I have no comment.
- While I agree with you on all counts - everything you said being spot-on - I still think you're taking for-granted your own maturity, artistic maturity and otherwise.
And this is great, but it's not something most beginning artists are capable of. They simply don't know. They don't know what their process is, because their process is 'do stuff to make nice stuff'. They don't know what their failures are, because knowing what you do poorly from the stuff you do well is almost impossible to diagnose early on in the learning stages, at least until your 'art eyes' catch up with your artistic ability.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just diagnosing the symptom. If we are waiting for all beginning artists to become mature artists before they are helped, than we aren't helping anyone. So while what you wrote is great, it's idealistic to expect that a beginning artist is even going to know how to approach following that advice.
And for the record, I am super guilty of this lately. Not that I am the most amazing artist, but I know enough to leave critiques and advice in some cases. Critiquing is hard. It takes thought and time. Beyond freelance and doing my own stuff, when I get on polycount at the end of the night, I rarely have enough energy to leave comments longer than a sentence. The problem with that is the only two comments you can leave with a sentence are "wow, that's awesome", or "wow, that's horrible", and obviously I'm not going to leave the latter comment to anyone, but I don't necessarily have the time to leave a paragraph or two of critique.
@ Unity2k
There will always be lazy people out there, but I think in the same paragraph that you use to (rightly) dismiss them, you are also dismissing a very powerful tool, which isn't fair.
Short tutorial videos are an extremely powerful tool. Am I suddenly lazy because I don't go to an hour long lecture class about using software? No. In fact I'd argue I get a whole lot more out of 'short tutorials', simply by the way my time is structured when I am learning that way.
I don't know something. I watch a 3 minute video. I try out what I have learned. I succeed or I fail, and I either continue or I repeat. I watch, I actively try, I watch, I actively try, it's a very progressive model for learning in my opinion. It's not lazy, it's just new(ish).
Very well put. Communication is an ignored skill. Clarity is harder and harder to come by.
I too use those very valuable tools, I wanted to point out (without casting aspersions) that we are and have been conditioning ourselves with brevity. This situation is simply a symptom of where we have gone and where we are. There have been some great points here about the maturity and stage of where young artists are and how they develop, it is with further examples and a continued dialog that others will learn; there's another way.
So in addition to Adam elevating the conversation, I say thanks to you too for adding your thoughts and helping me clarify mine.
In the forums all what i see are some lads/teens wanting pats on the back, expecting something similar like when their parents say: attaboy! attagirl!, and just words for magnifiying their ego, recognition. Want recognition?, compare your work with others and don't ask.
I customed to give serious critique but now... i don't give a shit for anyone, because you effort yourself helping others (losing your precious time), and at the end, they will do whatever they like. They won't hear you or they won't accept any advice/critique.
Only a few ones ask in their threads things like: how good is the anatomy? can i make a better topology? etc. Instead of that, i read: "hi, this is my latest work, blah blah blah". So don't expect critique nor a bath of masses saying how cool you are (because you may be an average joe
You can be very clear with your critique, though there are always some guys (if not a majority) that needs images with an overpaint or a direct retouch on their model if the overpaint wasn't enough.
And beware, there are too many cheeky around these forums expeting to learn easily. Don't tutor anyone!.
Lately, I tend to be more picky with who I will spend that time on, but even if my advice appears to have been ignored, I try to look at a critique as if it is a learning experience for myself. It helps to soften the blow when your advice falls on deaf ears.
If you take 30min giving a good critic, and the guy just doesn't give a f..., the next guy is maybe not going to have the chance of having a good critic too.
And that's too bad
" But who wants real critique nowadays?" "In the forums all what i see are some lads/teens wanting pats on the back"
True , and it's a shame... I think some people just want to hear (and I know some in this case) "Great! Good job" over and over.
It's rewarding 5 sec, but their not going to progress with this kind of words.
It's part of the job of an artist to learn to take critics in a good way, and use it, I guess.
I really want to be able to give "good'' critism, but I'm not comfortable enough in english right now. But I'll do my best now.
For me it's frustrating to not receive reponses on my threads , I don't know what to think afterwards, if it's bad or not etc. Mainly when I see others thread having a lot of love
But now, with this actual thread, I understand that asking for a specific point, or giving more infos on what I'm doing will help people.
I'll try to be better at this, it's a good exercise to decorticate my workflow.
(And sorry for my english -__-)
Polycount is a seriously great community and many, many artists have improved based on the crits and advice here. I'm one of them. I came over from CGtalk where you occasionally got good advice, but the comments were fewer and farther between.
What I found on polycount was indescribably better. I've got a thread going for 20 pages or somthing now. One of the first people who replied to me was MM, one of my CG heros. Seriously he took the time to critique my anatomy, and he kept popping up telling me in no uncertain terms what was good and what was bad, and went further to tell me about my habits and what I needed to change.
Tom parker (crazyfool) was doing paintovers. Pior took pictures of himself to make comparisons and help me pick out the problems in my structure. This is not to mention many other good artists who joined in. There is absolutely no way I am where I am now without polycount, those guys, and all the others.
And it's not like they were only in my thread. You see them everywhere. Whatever you want to do in games, there are people on polycount with the knowledge and resources to help, and there are a lot of beginning artists here who take the help and use it and apply it, and are massively thankful for it. Yeah, there's a couple of people who get frustrating, but it's not really as often as you're saying, and really I don't like seeing the negativity on your end, it's just as frustrating.
I don't think helping others is a waste of time; in fact helping others can benefit you too. Sometimes you'll try to explain something and you'll realise you don't understand it well enough yourself. Sometimes you'll get new ideas while making suggestions.
Also not every suggestion HAS to be incorporated. What if you have a legitimate reason to not follow some advice, like it would change the style you were aiming for? That doesn't mean you're ignoring critique, you're just choosing not to take that path. In this case though it would be nice to explain your reasoningso it's clear you're not ignoring advice.
That's what i used to do over cgtlak 7 years ago
Helping others may be good if you are still a rookie, still learning. But believe me, when you know how to do all the things, you are only wasting time. You will notice that when you get older.
In my experience there's no point solving problems to others, and more when you see they are just lazy-asses. I think is better for all people to mature with time and effort, and not asking in a forum/blog the most simplest things we can learn hitting f1. People must learn to reason, to solve problems.
Most critiques are related to anatomy/proportions, and it's suprising to see people asking for advice when the only thing they need to do, is to pick references. And it's frustrating when you put references to help them, and sometimes they get angry because they think they did all good (due to their silly ego).
And of course... not all suggestions must be incorporated, but if we are pointed we have a proportion error.. that's another case. And that's what i mean. I never wrote a critique with things related to our taste. I think those kind of suggestions does not help anything, because "for tastes... colors".
The last time i gave technical advise was in the thread of "how do you model dem shapes". EQ replied me with very bad manners because i also was posting another ways to solve the problems, and i said myself, "ok, i don't need a hill, so you can be the king of the hill". When you see such ungrateful people, you lose interest in helping others.
Well then your highness, think you are to good to help others out?
Your attitude makes me sad and does not help the community to get any better.
I think the main issue is that you don't express yourself very well. I take it English isn't your first language, but oftentimes you come off as thinking your way is the only right way, and you can be too rough with your words. It's offputting and seems arrogant, and I think that's typically what leads to those sorts of misunderstandings.
For instance, just above. I don't think you meant your comment in the way Stromberg90 took it, but it felt like you meant it that way.
To the new comers don't get discouraged, everything is a process and when I,we,he,she,they have time to comment we will. Otherwise I kind of have to agree with the praise puppies that get a ton of comments in their threads (lot of butt patting) they really don't need. Sorry puppies.
Perhaps this is why a lot of users feel alienated? Half the time I will critic myself though It will just take a lot longer and I suggest every user wanting critics to do the same before and after posting, don't wait for anyone as stated time is precious. (I used to have a bad habit of checking for feedback as well, do not do that you will get stuck on threads and not do any work and end up on youtube!)
To the CgTalk commenter I went over there like maybe 2 - 3 times and didn't get much help at all It felt "elitist", so saying what your saying I can say I've been to both and I've posted at a lot of other locations to "test the waters", and Pc always came through, I have yet to get comments at other locations, cool eh?
Anyway, again new comers don't take all the negativity to seriously or the comments that you should re-work your design even if you think you don't need to fix a thing.
In reality you do nothing is ever finished, especially to us, you know It, I know It, they know It.
Work harder is about all the useful comments I can say right now and my sig.
You getting a cold shoulder? Really sir Chris.
Anyways.
To OT: I used to not get replies on polycount, but then I took an arrow to knee.
Yep, i'm not a native english speaker.
Also, I don't understand why you say "oftentimes" and that "i think my way is the only right way"... that's a bad assumption. And with that issue i had in that thread, i NEVER said my way was the only way (i just put another methods).
So, I find ridiculous what you said because i'm not the type of guys that create a thread entitled: "you are doing it wrong!". Maybe, you notice what i mean, and you'll see where lies the arrogance, not on me.
Stromberg90 just distorted what i said quoting a part of the text, and he did another bad assumption like you (you read words not written). I never reply that kind of comments.
Back to the point, when someone is fed up of the same, is normal to stop giving advices or comments and that's what i did. And like me, a lot of people.
BTW, the community don't lose anything if i don't support some guys asking for help.
On the other hand, there's so many threads you just open and close within a few seconds. As if you already know that you don't like what you're seeing and that's that. Why? I don't know.
As a rookie ANY reply means the WORLD to me. I'm sure alot of new people fall into the same trap as I do. Before I even start a thread I get super defensive and it may take a week to even process the idea before I post the thread, at this point I have to be quick before I change my mind about the whole idea.
Then you think about it constantly " What if they say I'm no good?! ", then you have to spend the next day refreshing the page like a mad man, waking up the next morning. "Have they said anything?! ". And when the thread reaches page 3 you die a bit inside.
Everytime I see someone bump their own thread an hour after posting it I really feel for them. But do I post? No. Why? I actually don't know :S I'll start doing that, right now.
Insecurity is a bitch.
I'm sorry Blazier but I have to agree with Stromberg90. That's a really messed up mentality to have. You should give advice if you're a rookie, while the professionals should not give advice? Then how the hell do we improve as a community if the most experienced artists don't help? Maybe you meant something else but that's what I got out of it.
Most of the time a quick reply with any sort of critique will go a long way. But if you decide to make a paintover and take the time, that will require alot of patience. Think like a teacher. You can't explain something ONCE to a student and, if he/she doesn't get it, just blow them off. And don't sit on a high horse either, as if your time is so extremely precious that a newbie should thrive just to have you in their thread.
Wow, sorry if that got a bit ranty.
nice way to distort my words
I'm not saying that man. If you read well, what is said was as response to Bek, he pointed me this: "in fact helping others can benefit you too". And i'm not agree with that unless if you are a rookie or a noob. I hope it's clear now because man... what a way of taking things out of context
When i was younger, I didn't need the help of a community to learn. You can learn by yourself: first, reading the user guide of any program, and secondly, by yourself again, buying DVDs, books, reading tutorials, etc. (these would be only for the technical aspect).
And like i said, most users don't post for a real critique but for a showcase. Each day there are new users in these forums, and they tend to ask the same things several times. They don't bother to use the search function, nor reading the user reference/guide, nor worrying in looking for references.
NOBODY will teach you how to be a good artist (or better), nor paying in a school, nor in a forum. You must work/train everyday. And that's a fact...
Edit: And you can't expect others to solve all your problems.
Just want to chime in about the native language thing. I'm on the same boat as you man - even after years of reading and conversing, sometimes things can still be awkwardly phrased and therefore misunderstood. But as non-native speakers I think it's up to us to make the effort of re-reading our posts and editing them if needed, to make sure that our point gets across clearly ... *especially* here on Polycount, where native speakers are kind enough to politely ask non-native english speakers to maybe rephrase their statements in order to make sure that everybody is on the same page.
I must say I too am confused by your statement :
So correct me if I am wrong, but the way I understand your quote above is : "Rookies should be helping others artists ; All-knowing people (whatever that means...) should not be helping other artists, because by doing so they are wasting their time"
Is that really what you mean ? If we lived in a world where education and guidance were only being delivered by rookies I don't think we would be going very far ... Isn't an experienced teacher more useful than someone who has no clue what he/she is talking about ? Now sure enough, many things can be learned without a teacher. But that's another subject altogether.
And I am not sure to understand how seasoned vets are wasting their time by giving critique - isn't it up to the individual to decide wether or not something is a waste of their time ?
I am firmly convinced that seasoned vets can learn a lot by giving critiques to newcomers politely asking for guidance. It's a bit of an investment. If the question is well formulated, it often creates a healthy discussion, and the result is a gain of confidence for the artist willing to acknowledge his/her shortcoming and learn from them. Later on that person feels more comfortable communicating with others, and great things can happen from there. It is mostly obvious with real-life interactions, but online communication can cause that to happen too, and that's great ! Of course if the "rookie" is a stubborn, annoying person, it's not worth it. But if the questions are humble and clearly formulated, great things can happen !
The irony is strong here - I think it is awesome that people are willing to "waste their time" pointing out the misunderstandings caused by language in this thread, because at the end of the day, addressing the issue straight on can only make things better for everyone involved ...
Ok, now I understand the context. I get that it's frustrating, but you can't really blame others for the misunderstanding. I am sorry, though.
I don't think it's such a bad thing for "rookies" to post just to showcase. It's still a big step to take, as I tried to illustrate. It heartbreaking when no one replies, when you put your dream, heart and soul on display.
I agree to some extent. Those that progress to become great artists need to do that by their own power. But is it too much to ask to get a nod or a pat on the back while you make the climb?
There is a world of difference between the learning materials available online (manuals, books, videos, etc.) and the targeted advice dispensed by an experienced professional. Of course, for the vast majority of the basics, beginners should seek out the former before expecting the latter, but there is a ton of information out there, and a lot of it is sub-par. For a new artist, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to tell the difference between a good resource and a poor one. My personal struggle with this problem is what motivates me to give advice where I can.
Often, if I am struggling with a particular piece, it is not immediately apparent where my most significant shortcoming lies. I just know that my work is not where I would like it to be, and not much else. If it is apparent, I may not be familiar enough with the subject to know which terms to type into Google to find the most relevant resources. Its not that I'm too lazy to search, I just have no idea where to even begin, and I think a large majority of beginners find themselves in this type of situation at one point or another. In these cases, some of the best feedback sounds something like this:
"The weakest part of your work is X. Improvement in this area will bring your work to the next level. Here is an excellent article that I have bookmarked that covers exactly that topic..."
or
"You work is significantly lacking in [this broad area]. This can be simplified by breaking it down into [these components]. Start with [this resource] for the basics, and then once you're comfortable with that, look [here] for more advanced techniques."
Neither of those responses require a ton of effort, but they highlight problems with the work, as well as provide a course of action for self-improvement. Those that are sufficiently motivated will thank you for your time and dive right into the linked resources with a new-found sense of direction. Those that are not serious will never be heard from again.
A little direction can go a long way.
If you follow the context of my reply, you should understand why i said that, and you should not make any assumption as the others. I already replied Jakob to clarify my point.
I'm seeing you guys don't read the whole conversation, just only some parts.
Someone still learning "might" be helping others, sharing experiences, tips they have discovered with practice, etc.
All-knowing people is a term i did not say. I used a conditional phrase: "when/if YOU know how to do all the things".
I would not say "should", because it sounds like a "must". Nobody here is forced to do anything. To give or not to give advice/help is up to us.
When you have more than 10 years of experience, in modelling for example, you won't find much help in a forum (too many vets are no longer active in the forum, right?). I don't see any benefits helping people, seriously, and more if they are ungrateful.
What I read is:
"If u r a rookie, helping others may help you. For me, helping others is a waste of my time, because I know how to do all the things."
What Stomberg said was a stretching this cynically.
What Blazier said to Pior was emphasizing "YOU" as to avoid saying oh it's me who knows all. But really, Blazier... give it a rest
The bottom line is, say ur personal opinion and avoid making 'declarations' that put others in your spot.
My opinion on helping noobs: "the teacher is always the student".
Bad, too bad ¬¬. You don't read well, nor my nickname... it's bla-i-zer, not bla-zi-er man. Like to expect you to understand what i say, it's impossible! :nerd:
"Emphasizing you"... omfg, give me a break.
edit: I re-read shotgun was on point, ohh ho!
*Carry on*
Nice sketchbook don't let the dota2 people see it. lol
If an average person comes in, shows some average art and expects praise - they will get nothing. If they come in and ask for critique, they may get something, maybe from a great artist, maybe from another average artist, but it can be helpful.
Where I find value in polycount is the experienced artists who often times are the people WHO MAKE YOUR FAVORITE GAMES FOR A LIVING. Every experienced artist I have privately messaged has offered up help and advice without attitude, doing the best they can to share what they know.
I think it's important to come to polycount and look around for a while first, find out who is who, what they know and their GENERAL ATTITUDE. It shouldn't be anyone's thought while they are lurking, waiting to make their first art post, that they will come right in and blow everyone away with their work that THEY SHOULD KNOW is not the best.
For example, not only does he have tutorials on his website if you just look, but I would bet that if a person politely and respectfully private messaged Blaizer he would do what he could to help them out. The same goes for everyone here.
It makes sense to come into polycount and be a part of the community before expecting anything in return.
In the same vein as the addage "if you want to really understand something, teach it to an idiot". It's easy to know stuff, but if you want to understand the reasons behind it at a fundamental level, it helps to try and teach it to other people. You have to break the idea down into discrete, understandable chunks and forces you to fill in any gaps you may have in your own understanding or knowledge.
The same thing that takes a tutorial from being a set of recipe steps (not useful unless you're only ever going to do that same thing over and over) to actually dispensing useful information that's applicable in any situation. It takes it from the what to the why.
Most of us understand what normal maps do, but not many of us really understand how they do it. I have to confess, I didn't until I had to sit down and teach an idiot (the computer - or myself, you decide :P) how to calculate them.
anyways, something I think we havnt talked about here at all yet, is the other thread readers, not just the OP and the one giving the advice. even though the OP is ignoring the paintover/crit or whatever advice there is, everyone else reading through the thread might still gain from it. for exemple Ive learned tons from lurking in ysalex anatomy thread
I guess my point here is, there are still a lot of other pll who can benefit from advice then the OP.