Used Games
polycounter lvl 18
Anyone who works in this industry knows that used games are slowly killing the industry. The drop off of sales for games used to be nice and slow, where now it's a cliff. There are a number of ways to fight used games sales but they mostly fall into a few category's.
Free to play!
Free realms, the game is free the stuff in it isn't.
Digital download!
Steam, no hard copy's equals no used games!
Registration!
Blizzard, you can re-download the game when ever you want where ever you want but can only register it once. You can still sell the used hard copy but it has no perks.
Developer solutions!
All games must to have a multiplayer aspect or be so long(+100hrs) that you never trade them in.
Where do you hope the industry goes? Whats your great idea to solve the evil infestation that is used games?
Free to play!
Free realms, the game is free the stuff in it isn't.
Digital download!
Steam, no hard copy's equals no used games!
Registration!
Blizzard, you can re-download the game when ever you want where ever you want but can only register it once. You can still sell the used hard copy but it has no perks.
Developer solutions!
All games must to have a multiplayer aspect or be so long(+100hrs) that you never trade them in.
Where do you hope the industry goes? Whats your great idea to solve the evil infestation that is used games?
Replies
Im acutally a huge fan of EA's project 10 dollar, ive gotten a bunch of free DLC and shit for both mass effect 2 and bad company, and while it might not be the most amazing content ever, the fact that even if someone buys the game used, they have the option to pay for the vip content, atleast gives publishers a semi viable source of income.
steam kicks ass, I hated the concept when it 1st came out but now like everyone else i have seen its amazing value. not having huge manufacturing costs allows them/publishers to have all these amazing sales without taking a huge hit, which they do often = happy gamers who buy more often.
I wouldnt mind a registration system as I never trade in my games, and never buy used shit at all anymore. people will bitch about it either way but its really a good idea to think of some way to make sure devs get their money.
seriously, fuck you gamestop , your stupid pre-order exclusive bullshit, your pushing of used games and bullying of employees who dont meet your used/pre-order numbers. you are a pure swine who needs to be devoured, now feast.....feast on its flesh!
I actually am really hoping Nintendo takes this route with the 3DS. If they have an online download service (which i have to assume), I've love to see them go disruptive and offer steam quality sales and prices. Lord knows sony and MS aren't going that way anytime soon (full priced PSP games when your system is Digital only? fuck you sony. Full priced 360 games when it's download online? fuck you MS).
then again, nintendo is currently charging a bit for VC, but it's not too insane.
what can I say, I'm a dreamer.
I like the DD route + registration for the future if it includes great sales.
Steam is great + broadband connection. I decided to replay halflife 2 and took me less than an hour to download it vs digging out the 4 origial cd's. Bought both L4D off steam. Although I still perfer hard copies of things like Dragon Age.
unless it something super hard to get, like the sc2 collectors edition like you mentioned, you can scoff in their face, hit up any future shop or best buy where they have 50+ copies readily available.
^_^
Those are all good ideas (except the last one... 100+ hours gameplay??)
Though I did by Red Dead Redemption new. As well as Nmh1 and 2.
With the new system being tried out, the one where you need to pay to play online if you're buying used, I'm hearing my manager bitch and moan a lot. "Oh, no, this is gonna hurt our used! This is gonna hurt us soooo much!" I tell him plain to his face, I love it. I can't wait to see used sales crash and burn, as one looking to get into the industry from a NON-retail area.
Trade-in prices are a joke. $5 for a game that sells for $30. Seriously. The BEST price you can get back (on like, 1 game in the store) is $40, and that's still for a game that will sell again used for $64.99.
But all this is just me bitching. What is REALLY the problem is how many gamers don't even think twice about what buying used means. They think of how much they are saving, what kinda quality they're getting for used, etc. No one thinks how buying used means money is ONLY going back into EB's pocket, and not a penny to developers, publishers, etc. Knowing this as I do, I make it a point to let my friends know too. I believe I've stopped at least one or two from buying used.
So, any of the previously mentioned ideas sound good to me. I like having hard-copies of certain games, but others sound great for digital download. Hard copy stuff can feel free to have a price on playing online when bought used. Sounds perfect. Crash and burn, EB, crash and burn...
Great. Way to mention EB/Gamestop and get me going. :P /end rant.
Bullshit. Nearly every industry in the world can sustain itself with a used market but somehow games are special and need special rules to fight off the EVIL free market? No, that's the industries attempt at oversimplifying its problems so they an easily point their finger at one universal cause for everything for those who don't buy the 'every pirated game is a lost sale' argument. Lets give a breakdown of the real issues the industry faces when it comes to increased/decreased revenue:
-Retailer business practices. Game stores (like Gamestop) where the only reason they sell new products is to get more people to come in their stores so they can push used ones, often going so far as to telling customers in their stores to outright avoid new products they are selling.
-Regional prices. Japan/US are basically the only markets being targeted, with with AUS/EUR getting products extremely late and often at double to triple the price. And everywhere else it's basically import, piracy, or nothing. Go here for some fun reading on this topic.
-New prices. The industry has moved to a $60 price model (were talking the US atm) this generation, which puts new products above the point a lot of consumers are willing to pay. Pricing is very important, If its too high people wont buy, if its too low people will undervalue the product, if its somewhere in the middle however your only concern should be eventual market saturation. But the shelf life of new games doesn't often allow for market saturation so this is a moot point. Apparently Valve is the only one who realizes this.
-Consumer confidence. Who buys PC games at retail anymore? Not many, but why? Obviously its NOT because of piracy, otherwise steam wouldn't be doing as well as it is. The real issue is that no one is willing to risk buying a PC game that way anymore. Will your machine be fast enough? Will it have horrible drm that causes harm to your machine? Will it allow you to play the offline without being online? hopefully, cause you cant return it, and you cant resell it.
-Games as an investment. Will the games you buy today work 10 years from now? If your system breaks will it take them with it? Can your games be resold when your tired of them? Can you lend your games to a friend? Do you REALLY own any of the games your buying today?
The games industry has a lot of problems, but used sales by themselfs are NOT one of them. Its a scapegoat.
Yeah the prices are going up and the value of the dollar is going down just as fast. Yeah games really should be $50 still, but that's not going to change. EDIT: Ahh i see what you were saying better now. Yeah game prices shouldn't be a locked price for sure!
I just want to make sure its obvious, i don't want to see the end of hard copy's. But i do think that used games should still provide the consumer with the same options as a new, but at a cost that goes back to the developers. A prefect would it would work like this, new hard copy price = 100% cost, digital = 75% cost, register a used game = 25% cost. So if it's $60 for a hard copy, $45 digital, and $15 to register a used copy. With that said i don't think you should be able to register a rental game.
I also love the buy back program idea. Where you can send in your game for credit at the company.
not only that but EA see's it as a "lackluster" seller, just like mirrors edge, luckily they are making a sequel but it would be a lot easier to justify that sequel with 5 million units shipped. so while it might not be destroying the industry it certainly can effect which franchises/games/studios get the funding. critical acclaim can only go so far. regardless of your stance on it, its hard to say it has no negative effect on developers.
Used clothing? Used cars? Used planes? Used construction equipment? Used PC's?
There are big advantages to buying these things new, they have expiration dates or the older they get the more costly they become to maintain Most have a lot of mechanical moving parts that wear out over time so there is incentive to buy new. It lasts longer, has less problems and is normally covered under some kind of warranty if it does break down.
Print or Music maybe? They suffer from some of the same problems our industry does. They also have quite a few unique problems specific to their industry that aren't transferable to ours.
I think you're over simplifying things here by lumping the industry with its unique circumstances in with "the rest of the free market". The rest of the free market has used goods, games are part of the free market, so it must be ok? That sounds overly simplified to me...
This means a lot of us won't have jobs because douche bags who make money any which way they can, will gladly resell our hard work at new game prices undercutting our effort to sell a new game. I guess we should take that laying down because after all "meh... its the free market whatca gunna do?"
Our supply line has cancer... cut them the f*ck out before its too late. They could have shared and saved themselves but their greed got the better of them so now the free market will sort them out, hopefully while there still is an industry to save, preferably I would rather solve the problem sooner rather than later, this wait and see who dies first approach is causing a lot of casualties.
Also I think you're taking it a bit far with the "hopefully while there still is an industry to save", you make it sound like the most profitable entertainment medium in the world is going to disappear overnight. I agree something needs to be done, but I most certainly do not agree that the resale industry should be removed from the equation, as I feel it is an important part in the long term survival of any industry.
If nothing else let me put it this way: Would you buy games new regularly (at $60+ each) if you knew they could never be resold?
come into the cinema every time to see it, it will be on a dvd after a short time being
passed around and sold used.
Something like tf2 and css on the other hand are like oldtimer cars.
They stay beautifull no matter how old they get.
You keep them in your steam garage and take care of them once in a while.
And so does valve.
No, I'll disagree with you that "almost half of the user base bought it used somewhere down the road".
I played Dead Space. I didn't buy it new, I didn't buy it second hand, instead I rented it from Lovefilm. The Blockbuster video that I walk past at night is about 50% film and 50% games these days, so I suspect the rental market can account for a significant chunk. Does anyone have numbers on the rental market?
How much of the rental price goes to the games companies? I know that back in the 80s video rental shops paid 5-10 times the cost that a consumer did to buy the same film.
EDIT:::
(From wikipedia)
"...in the mid-1990s. Blockbuster obtained videos for little cost and kept 60 percent rental fee, paying the other 40 percent to the studio,"
Anyone know the deal with games?
Second ninja edit, from Los Angeles Business Journal, April 3, 2006 :
"Blockbuster Inc. currently enjoys the lion's share of the video game
rental market--it took in almost $500 million in game rentals last
year (2005)"
:::: /EDIT
By the way, I didn't buy Heavy Rain new or secondhand, and I didn't rent it. I borrowed it from someone at work. That's not unique, I wonder how much that would account for the 50% sales difference on Dead Space?
Also, off topic but, what exactly justifies the "AAA game" title? Its never been particularly clear to me what that means. It cant mean quality because that too difficult to quantify, so is it purely based on development expense, and if so how much?
For me however AAA means nothing good.
In the mean time hammer out legislation that attempts to regulate fair business deals between resale and developer.
IGDA and Publishers UNITE to form mega lobby corp!
But thats going to be hard to do in the current political and economic climate. It costs way too much to bribe senators these days and they're always getting booted out of office before they vote.
I do, I buy more PC than console games, most of them digitally with no chance of return or resale. I'm not the type of guy that rushes out and gets a game, plays it all weekend and returns it. I spend most of my free time making game art instead of playing games.
I don't buy used games for the same reason I don't pirate them, because they directly take money out of the pockets of people I know and care about. I'm not sure I could be part of this industry and secretly stab it in the back every weekend...
As for the doom and gloom about the industry. E3 this year was a big indicator that we're headed down a dark path. There is very little to be excited about.
They'll spend money to make new brands when the customers return.
The customers won't return until they see new brands.
It's the same catch 22 we hit with previous generations of consoles but with no new hardware or the buzz that drives game sales. They're attempting to jump dead mans gorge on a moped.
In other words. DOOM doom... DOOoOOoom... and resale isn't helping anyone get back on their feet.
Justin,
The publisher/developer relationship is another problem, one that sucks money away from the people doing the actual work, almost as much as being undercut by resale. On EA's scale, can you really call 2.5 million a success?
Taken from the EA investors page. 2.5 million really doesn't make a dent in those numbers at all. It sounds like big money but not to EA. If a developer could get their hands on that cash they could produce higher quality games, at a faster pace and at cheaper prices. The EA model is a problem unto itself and another reason why the people who need the money aren't getting it.
As much as I want to hate publishers on this, they're still in most cases the ones who will fund the entire development of the game, and then market it and get it out on the shelves.
a used games sales where the guy buying the game might think "yay, I save 5 bucks on this game!" the developer and publisher will end up with nothing of that money, it's about as much of a sale as a pirated copy would be.
The problem with used sales was equal to piracy, it became mainstream and over the top, people have started buying used games on the same week the game is released, just to save a few dollars, without realizing that it's not going to help them get a sequel to that game.
It's too much.
First, I see nothing wrong with the used market. I don't like how companies like Gamestop give crap trade-in values, but resell the games at almost full price, but if people are willing to bargain that way, more power to Gamestop.
Second, if the games were worth keeping, people wouldn't trade them in. I know many of you guys worked hard to publish these games, but I'm sorry, some final products are crap, or way too easy to get through in an evening. I have many games that I keep, because of the replay value, or I still haven't completed them. I have others that were utter crap, and I was glad to unload them while it was still hot in the market.
Third, I hate the concept of downloading games. Until they learn how to handle it better, I still want to have the hard copy. I don't want to rely on having an internet connection in order to use my console.
I saw a gamestop further south in germany tho.
Most of those deals are pretty toxic to the developer. The developer makes the game the publisher wants on the budget they are given. Not the other way around. I would rather work for a company that makes the new games they want to make with passion and the profits from the games they have sold.
The current developer/publisher model pretty much equates to indentured servitude. Only at the end of the deal, instead of freedom as a reward for your hard work you get a kick in the ass as they shift production to another studio that's cheaper. they pay enough to get it done but not enough so that you can actually do anything on your own.
If you're lucky you get to make something your passionate about so at least your mildly happy while they starve you out.
Now it isn't surprising that big publishers want to erode the rights of game owners even more so they can make an extra buck, but lets not pretend it's about anything beyond greed.
Lets talk about what NDP is reporting now.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/npd-video-game-sales-drop-26-pct-in-april/
We're headed for another long flat dry period of no growth, if we're lucky.
We were a little late getting hit by the down turn, we'll be a little late recovering. All the repeat games and brand extensions are going to depress sales.
I would love to be proven wrong, but from where I sit with the info that's floating around it looks pretty bad.
As you mention, it was probably the global economic meltdown and not used sales that caused the dip in sales numbers.
Also you can trade in Digital Distribution copies now: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/37245/Green-Man-Gaming-offers-trade-ins-on-digital-games
You cant blame them market forces and all that but, a major store chain in the UK GAME is in the decline. When you go into a store its not hard to see why though, lots of second hand games sections, all the most popular game titles, with lots of shelf space used for just one title.
Compare that to a movie section in HMV, and they have tons of movies. An A to Z, the charts(although they dont have use as much space as games do for the most popular movies). Even a world cinema, anime section. If you want an obscure movie about something, or just a random film that might be interesting then they will likely have it instore.
Games Retail is dying because there killing off their own market. They only sell the most popular generic stuff, the people whom buy them are only interested in getting the best price for it, they will buy second hand or on line if they can get a better price. The library of their potential sales products is very small, limited to the current consoles, limited even more with their own choices, they only specialise in throughput of the most current AAA titles.
The prominence of second hand sales in mainstream stores has to be a major indicator that something is really wrong. Pricing or whatever.
I wouldnt blame second hand sales though, people pay the prices that they are willing. There is no evidence or garantee that they would pay full price for these products, if they were not available second hand.
Ok I have ask where did you pull this "kill used games market" from? We know that they are not helping the industry. The question is what direction would be the best to solve that problem? I gave a few examples that are currently in place. The goal is as always to create games the consumers wants and make enough money to keep doing that. A system like we have works but is not very conducive to the end goal as our share of the profits are dropping.
So back to the subject, what do you think would be the best way to give the consumer what they want while getting us the sales numbers we need to keep going?
I think smaller budgets/teams making more interesting games would be a good start.
The Game itself can be bought some month later in a way similar to today.
Why? Because I think the game marked gets closer and closer to the film marked. And going into the cinema is something you can not resell, hack or whatnot..
Ok maybe I'm wrong.. but I'm quite certain it will be tried at least once.
Honestly, I don't think that's why the industry is losing sales. I think it has more to do with price points. For me (and several people I know), I refuse to pay $60 for most games, with such a great potential to buy a dud. So, you have people waiting for these games to hit the 'used' shelves, because it's worth waiting a few weeks.
Think of it deeper here. People aren't buying these games used on day one, because they aren't available. Within a week, you have gamers who already dislike the game, or have completed it, then trade it in. The guys waiting for the used games, then come strolling in and get it at a better price.
So, a solution you ask? Well, as I stated in my earlier post, make the games more challenging/re-playable, so people hold on to them. Additionally, not every game should come out at $60. For instance, these Guitar Hero special additions, that add nothing more than a new setlist, yet it's selling for $60. IMO, that should be a $30 - $40 game and $40 is stretching it.
A friend came up with another option,
New games come with a registration card and a disk. The disk would have all the data for the game but be missing a file that lets you play the game. Registering would give you that tiny file and let you play. The card is a one time use. You can also buy the card by its self day one as well and download the game. The used game would now just be the disk to save you the download time but would still require you to buy the registration. You could also buy that in the store, or online.
On the PC end of things, I think games have gotten too far away from being modible, which I think really helps you hold on to the game. I still play Tribes 2 every weekend, and that game is probably 10yrs old now.
The way I see it, your only answer is to make it so the consumer can never sell off their investment. You're telling me that I pay $60 for a game, and if it completely sucks, I'm stuck with it. Why should I not be able to trade it in for $40 and get SOME kind of return? If game purchase went that route, I think you'd see a backlash that would result in even fewer sales of new games.
I think we need to see some numbers before saying this is true. Used games sales have been around since mostly the beginning. How would there suddenly be a cliff?
How does that equal the enemy being the used market? I mean we are in a recession.
qft
Also this shit does NOT help!
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/21-Things-You-Should-Never-usnews-2356162080.html?x=0
I know but this has been going on for decades. What suddenly is driving this worry that its killing major publishers? Where are the numbers? If anything its the rental market that hurts. Which I have a solution to that. Make the games longer versus this crap these days of making short games. So they can't beat them in one rental period, and thus more likely to pick up a paid copy.
Used game sales pose a threat to the game industry because there is relatively little practical incentive to buy new. Buying used DVDs and CDs is a hassle, but specialized game stores (not just Gamestop) make pushing the convenience of buying used their highest priority. Couple that with the fact that new games cost so much that even shaving a measly five bucks off can go a disproportionately long way to easing a guilty consumer conscience and you can see how this could be problematic.
Lowering the price of new games would of course increase game sales overall, but beyond that it would likely shift the ratio of new/used sales. But we've got a problem in that debuting a big new title below the established "AAA game" price could cause general perception to be a lack of confidence in the title's quality. I don't think that would necessarily be the case, but I would want to take that issue head-on in the marketing campaign and keep hammering phrases like "reach the widest possible audience" and "bring prices back within reason" -- you know, position yourself as a consumer advocate.
Yet one of the roadblocks with high game prices is that they don't hurt everyone equally: they hurt the less-than-superstar titles most. High prices make consumers more risk-averse, which makes publishers more risk-averse, which means the relationship between the difference in market appeal (do not confuse this with quality) and difference in profits on a given project becomes that much more disproportionate and exponential. Instead of making almost as much money with a game that is almost as appealing you make much less money with a game that is almost as appealing. So in the end it's unlikely that the most popular publishers are going to want to bring game prices back down: when X amount of cash can afford to buy your game and three others instead of your game and two others, you get a smaller cut.
I don't think you're following me completely.. maybe I'm not being clear
I understand that the AC series requires a large staff, which to me is a good thing (keeps more talents artists, like yourself, employed). And again, at least it justifies paying full price for the game.
And yeah, if adding multiplayer to Gears is what helped make it worth the value, then it proves what I was saying. Add multiplayer to keep people from selling their games to Gamestop.
It sounds to me, like you want to place the blame of ALL the gaming industry's problems, solely on companies selling used games and you don't want to consider any other argument. The only solution is to screw the consumer. You'll make great management
I don't like what has happened in the industry. The way I see it, big companies swallowed up all the little companies, then they were too quick to trim the fat when the economy dipped. Now, I see very little originality in games from major developers, only rehashes of older successful games. Then they are disappointed when consumers don't flock to the stores. Especially when most consumers are unemployed these days and can't afford $60 games.
Notman, I'm just going to have to disagree with you on the AC thing. When you have 500 people on a project it can not be anything other than a rehash of an older game. Something that you dont want, so why would that be a good thing? As for adding multiplayer to every game, should every game have multiplayer then? Because it sounds like your ideal games industry every game is either a mega sequel with 80+hrs of game play or has to revolve around multiplayer. That's what I'm trying to get at. The industry needs more options than cheapo games, mega games and multiplayer games.
What i have gathered so far is,
Games need to NOT be locked in at a price.
Digital download is bad because lack of the option for resale.
Registration is bad because it makes your used game worth less at trade it in.
Free one time use DLC cards are great. (but shouldn't this make the game worth less too?)
Developers should be making original games that are longer and harder with multiplayer.
Nobody seems to care about micro-transactions.
^Is that all correct?
I can understand your concern TGZ. Frankly I think the current game design philosophy is over, and we are in for a major shift in how games are made again. I hope that doesn't mean tons of people losing their jobs, but if people can't adjust, that is just going to happen.
Here is my suggestion. Unless you are a huge AAA company with a track record for these games, don't make a linear highly scripted corridor shooter or a 3rd person cover based shooter. Don't make a driving game or a sports game. Don't make a GTA clone. Don't set your game in WW2, Modern middle east or the 50's. Make your SP longer than 5 hours. Don't bother with MP unless you have something special.
Do make your core gameplay systems deep and accurate according to what you are depicting. Two good examples of this are Shadow of the Colossus and Portal. Put some humor in your game. Make things a little complicated (nobody complained about having an inventory in RE4, so why drop it?). Let the player control the way they progress in the game instead of forcing them to do pointless tasks to make progress. Get a decent writer who understands games.
If you are still at Monolith you should tell them to make a new Shogo game