Hey, to be perfectly honest, I don't fully understand some of the comments about the dances not hitting beats. There (almost) isn't a single dance beat that doesn't correspond to a musical beat, unless it's a sort of 'freestyle' section like the moonwalk. I don't really want to go through one of the dances and point out every beat, and its not like you're WRONG, I mean, if you dont feel the beat, you dont feel it.
But yeah, I mean, here's a quick breakdown from my end about the spy.
finger point hits on 'every'.
hat gets exchanged on 'body'
arm is full extended on 'dance'
First beat of music perfectly matches him putting hat on his head.
third beat perfectly matches full arm extension after swing.
Next two beat match crotch swings.
Next beat hits exactly on last frame of kick
skips one beat then arms extensions correspond to next 2.
I wont go on through the whole song heh. Am I crazy here? I'm obviously not doing a good enough job (and I don't want them to hit EVERY beat perfectly). SO yeah, at a loss tbh, a lot of choreography goes into it frankly. If you ACTUALLY saw a version where I just laid music over the top I think you'd see a ridiculously HUGE difference.
Hi there! its cool to see you're genuinely interested to see why some of us dont feel like its synched!
So even after reading your breakdown it still doesn't feel like its on it. I know that if I carefully scrub the timeline and watch out for lyrics it seems to be matching - but then again no one will ever watch the animation that way so its kinda irrelevant!
One thing that could really help, is to have something stay common between two or more beats. The main pose being the same, but the arms taking different positions. Head looking left, then head looking right, but same torso. That kind of things. At the moment, you switch between two completely different poses for every beat and it looses continuity.
Just think of any famous dance move and you ll notice that its made of an 'animation layer' being put on top of something steady or continuous. Moonwalk : straight body, but feet mark the beat for a few hits. Saturday night fever : Arms go up and down on the beat, but the body is either static or the guy walks forward. I think its important to keep that in mind, because if not it will just look like a slideshow of poses and not matter how accurately timed they are, lack of continuity would break it ...
I hope it helps! I am no animator but I have always been very critical for anything animated, for some reason. (I cannot stand ffxiii because of the retarded run cycles, hated battlestar galactica because of the fake shakycam, and so on ... )
With each dance it's kind of like I'm trying to do a 'greatest hits' of a series of dances or dancers, and I can see how this has lead me to very cluttered sets of poses and the results we've discussed. I still like what I've made so far (apart from the demoman, but he was a test!) but I'm going to take all this in mind as I go forward for sure. ty for the feedback.
Wahlgren - i think i remember reading further back in the thread that he's planning to do a big scene with all of the guys dancing and this is gonna be the song they are all dancing to, that'd explain the choice.
I don't get the music choice or why it has to be the same to every dancemove but you are a god at animation.
Lesser animators dissolve when they see you i bet.
But yeah. Music... it's like juggling rocks at an antique vases auction. Really not suitable
Thanks for the input, the reason for the song is that they are all dancing to it together so it has to be the same every time. Glad you like the animation, hopefully in the final product you'll like the song choice a little more!
The others were great, but this heavy medic pair is just hilarious.
This is some really cool stuff you're making here, and I think regardless of whether or not you are "getting" what some are noting about the music/dancing being off, it seems that with every new character you're getting more in sync with the music.
They're all awesome.
I hope you finish this!
I don't know if this is technically possible for you to do but making the spy cloak near the end of his moonwalk might be a nice touch.
It would be fairly easy. You would just need to render out a background shot and/or video and the spy animation with the same background/green screen and mess with it in after effects.
It would be fairly easy. You would just need to render out a background shot and/or video and the spy animation with the same background/green screen and mess with it in after effects.
Hmm you know you're right, it might not be that hard, and it's giving me other ideas too....
I was going to say the medic gets thrown slightly too much to the left, but i think the fluidity of his almost rag-doll boday works with the rest so I wouldn't change it
At 10 seconds, when the Heavy holds the Medic up in the air for 2 beats, that's amazing.
The beginning feels a bit rushed, the Medic's head would be hurt! That said, the animation is wonderfully fluid, bar a couple of moments where the characters move a little too fast.
Again, it's not supposed to be one hundred percent perfect, yadda yadda. Great job, regardless.
I love these, specifically because of how you've managed to get that pop and snap in like ye-olde cell animation that so many 3d animated things lack. Especially with the heavy/medic combo.
Thanks for the feedback guys, this one has gotten more attention on the internet than most for some reason (and I was already very surprised with the attention I was getting), to the extent that I have rly good companies emailing me about jobs....
ANYWAY! I just wanna get these finished, hard at work on the next one now, and feeling pretty good about it
Thanks for the feedback guys, this one has gotten more attention on the internet than most for some reason (and I was already very surprised with the attention I was getting), to the extent that I have rly good companies emailing me about jobs....
ANYWAY! I just wanna get these finished, hard at work on the next one now, and feeling pretty good about it
Thats really good news. Now show them you can put it all together....best of luck with your career James.
I agree with the comments about how they start off dancing too fast, 'cause they just don't seem to go with the music, up until the beat comes in. Just my opinion, and I think these are fregging awesome
Keep it up :D:D:D
I don't get the music choice or why it has to be the same to every dancemove but you are a god at animation.
Lesser animators dissolve when they see you i bet.
But yeah. Music... it's like juggling rocks at an antique vases auction. Really not suitable
I'm all for James skill in game animation but saying he is god at animation is just plain wrong :S
There is such a thing a feature film animation - animation with acting, personality- Think of the Nine old Men, think of Victor Navone, Aaron Hartline, guys like that.
There is game animation and then there are things feature films with pixar qaulity.
Those people are gods at animation.
To completley different things by the way.
Game animation doesn't cover any personality, only some of the 12 principles, it's extremley limited, it doesn't show any acting, dimension to the character, it's all scripted and mechanical.
Where as a nice acting peice in Maya is fluid, shows personality, weight, thinking process, the whole lot.
I'm all for James skill in game animation but saying he is god at animation is just plain wrong :S
There is such a thing a feature film animation - animation with acting, personality- Think of the Nine old Men, think of Victor Navone, Aaron Hartline, guys like that.
There is game animation and then there are things feature films with pixar qaulity.
Those people are gods at animation.
To completley different things by the way.
Game animation doesn't cover any personality, only some of the 12 principles, it's extremley limited, it doesn't show any acting, dimension to the character, it's all scripted and mechanical.
Where as a nice acting peice in Maya is fluid, shows personality, weight, thinking process, the whole lot.
You're absolutely right that I'm not a god at animation, you are completely fucking wrong about everything else, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, in fact, I'm baffled as to what you even mean by half of what you said. You sound incredibly ignorant, you've never worked at a game studio or a film studio.
PEACE
EDIT: I know you're really getting into animation and studying it as you learn (and that's awesome, I'm really excited for you), but you sound incredibly pretentious, especially since you're really aren't coming from a position of vast animation knowledge.
P.S. None of these dances are game animation.....and I don't think you really understand the difference.
...Okay? I did not expect that.
Dude...I in NO way ment that to be harmful or anything.
What the hell is with the swearing?
Seriously man, calm down.
I thot you were a cool guy.
Wtf?
Taylor, take a look at the animation in some of Valve's games. Alyx from the HL2 episodes and the characters from TF2 all have a huge amount of personality in their animations. So while it is scripted, it's not scripted in the "I'm running a script to get a basic animation instead of keyframing it" sense. It's scripted in the "I wrote a script and then animated it" sense.
Ever heard of cutscenes in video games? I'm pretty sure Metal Gear Solid 4 has like 50+ hours of non-scripted animation (50 is probably an exaggeration, I've never actually played the game)
Also, you play Team Fortress 2 I'm guessing? Have you ever seen the characters move? Each class has their own unique run and walk cycle which shows their personality.
For the record, I disagree with everything TaylorHood said, I think you are a god at animation.
If anything, I would liken these TF2 dance clips to Pixar style animation, and animation that the 'masters' practice. I'm not an animator, don't pretend to be one and probably never will be one, so from nothing but a spectators perspective, they are entertaining, enjoyable and humorous, things that great animation should strive to achieve right?
Not sure what that first sentence is supposed to mean. Is it a piss take?. Dude, I've realised how stupid what I've said was and I know I was wrong to say it.
Look at my other posts, I'm not the same person I was before.
Thanks
Ever heard of cutscenes in video games? I'm pretty sure Metal Gear Solid 4 has like 50+ hours of non-scripted animation (50 is probably an exaggeration, I've never actually played the game)
Also, you play Team Fortress 2 I'm guessing? Have you ever seen the characters move? Each class has their own unique run and walk cycle which shows their personality.
lol i think 50+ hours is probly right, i think i spent more time watching cut scenes then i did playing the game
i still cant believe the skill in this James its amazing!!!
Not sure what that first sentence is supposed to mean. Is it a piss take?.
No I wasn't taking the piss... it tied in with the rest of my post. Just saying that you mentioned how great animation is more of the Pixar variety and I was saying that when I watched the TF2 animations, I saw more character and expression in them similar to Pixar/Dreamworks stuff than what is typically seen in games, hence why I said I disagree with what you were saying.
I was disagreeing with you because I thought the opposite of what you said, not because I wanted to highlight the fact I thought you were wrong.
Hey guys, just want to drop in to say thanks so much for all the discussion, and the comments, and to ask that we let sleeping dogs lie regarding Taylor Hood. He obviously wants to let it go so let's respect that and all play nice
PEACE
P.S. Have already done a tonne of the new animation, should be uploaded this week
I know I may have come across as maybe abit jealous or something but I just ment to say in that entire paragraph there are people like Richard Williams who animated and studied under people like Milht Khal for years and only then was he a "decent animator" to them. Those are the people I consider gods at animation.
And with that I think that everyones reaction to me was a bit negative =S
Replies
But yeah, I mean, here's a quick breakdown from my end about the spy.
finger point hits on 'every'.
hat gets exchanged on 'body'
arm is full extended on 'dance'
First beat of music perfectly matches him putting hat on his head.
third beat perfectly matches full arm extension after swing.
Next two beat match crotch swings.
Next beat hits exactly on last frame of kick
skips one beat then arms extensions correspond to next 2.
I wont go on through the whole song heh. Am I crazy here? I'm obviously not doing a good enough job (and I don't want them to hit EVERY beat perfectly). SO yeah, at a loss tbh, a lot of choreography goes into it frankly. If you ACTUALLY saw a version where I just laid music over the top I think you'd see a ridiculously HUGE difference.
So even after reading your breakdown it still doesn't feel like its on it. I know that if I carefully scrub the timeline and watch out for lyrics it seems to be matching - but then again no one will ever watch the animation that way so its kinda irrelevant!
One thing that could really help, is to have something stay common between two or more beats. The main pose being the same, but the arms taking different positions. Head looking left, then head looking right, but same torso. That kind of things. At the moment, you switch between two completely different poses for every beat and it looses continuity.
Just think of any famous dance move and you ll notice that its made of an 'animation layer' being put on top of something steady or continuous. Moonwalk : straight body, but feet mark the beat for a few hits. Saturday night fever : Arms go up and down on the beat, but the body is either static or the guy walks forward. I think its important to keep that in mind, because if not it will just look like a slideshow of poses and not matter how accurately timed they are, lack of continuity would break it ...
I hope it helps! I am no animator but I have always been very critical for anything animated, for some reason. (I cannot stand ffxiii because of the retarded run cycles, hated battlestar galactica because of the fake shakycam, and so on ...
With each dance it's kind of like I'm trying to do a 'greatest hits' of a series of dances or dancers, and I can see how this has lead me to very cluttered sets of poses and the results we've discussed. I still like what I've made so far (apart from the demoman, but he was a test!) but I'm going to take all this in mind as I go forward for sure. ty for the feedback.
[ame]
Lesser animators dissolve when they see you i bet.
But yeah. Music... it's like juggling rocks at an antique vases auction. Really not suitable
and holy shit, you are bloody good at this
Thanks for the input, the reason for the song is that they are all dancing to it together so it has to be the same every time. Glad you like the animation, hopefully in the final product you'll like the song choice a little more!
I don't know if this is technically possible for you to do but making the spy cloak near the end of his moonwalk might be a nice touch.
This is some really cool stuff you're making here, and I think regardless of whether or not you are "getting" what some are noting about the music/dancing being off, it seems that with every new character you're getting more in sync with the music.
They're all awesome.
I hope you finish this!
I actually love this idea, but yeah no idea if I can do it, maybe somebody at work can help me...
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/07/08/why-team-fortress-2-needs-a-dance-command/
It would be fairly easy. You would just need to render out a background shot and/or video and the spy animation with the same background/green screen and mess with it in after effects.
Hmm you know you're right, it might not be that hard, and it's giving me other ideas too....
The beginning feels a bit rushed, the Medic's head would be hurt! That said, the animation is wonderfully fluid, bar a couple of moments where the characters move a little too fast.
Again, it's not supposed to be one hundred percent perfect, yadda yadda. Great job, regardless.
This last one is so wrong but it might be the best one yet
FINISH ALREADY
ANYWAY! I just wanna get these finished, hard at work on the next one now, and feeling pretty good about it
Thats really good news. Now show them you can put it all together....best of luck with your career James.
Keep it up
There is such a thing a feature film animation - animation with acting, personality- Think of the Nine old Men, think of Victor Navone, Aaron Hartline, guys like that.
There is game animation and then there are things feature films with pixar qaulity.
Those people are gods at animation.
To completley different things by the way.
Game animation doesn't cover any personality, only some of the 12 principles, it's extremley limited, it doesn't show any acting, dimension to the character, it's all scripted and mechanical.
Where as a nice acting peice in Maya is fluid, shows personality, weight, thinking process, the whole lot.
You're absolutely right that I'm not a god at animation, you are completely fucking wrong about everything else, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, in fact, I'm baffled as to what you even mean by half of what you said. You sound incredibly ignorant, you've never worked at a game studio or a film studio.
PEACE
EDIT: I know you're really getting into animation and studying it as you learn (and that's awesome, I'm really excited for you), but you sound incredibly pretentious, especially since you're really aren't coming from a position of vast animation knowledge.
P.S. None of these dances are game animation.....and I don't think you really understand the difference.
Dude...I in NO way ment that to be harmful or anything.
What the hell is with the swearing?
Seriously man, calm down.
I thot you were a cool guy.
Wtf?
You're right, I shouldn't be annoyed about it, but you're really not going to endear yourself to the animation community if you act like that.
Sorry if I came off a little worked up but you should think things through a little before you commit your thoughts to the internet.
Also, you play Team Fortress 2 I'm guessing? Have you ever seen the characters move? Each class has their own unique run and walk cycle which shows their personality.
If anything, I would liken these TF2 dance clips to Pixar style animation, and animation that the 'masters' practice. I'm not an animator, don't pretend to be one and probably never will be one, so from nothing but a spectators perspective, they are entertaining, enjoyable and humorous, things that great animation should strive to achieve right?
Look at my other posts, I'm not the same person I was before.
Thanks
lol i think 50+ hours is probly right, i think i spent more time watching cut scenes then i did playing the game
i still cant believe the skill in this James its amazing!!!
No I wasn't taking the piss... it tied in with the rest of my post. Just saying that you mentioned how great animation is more of the Pixar variety and I was saying that when I watched the TF2 animations, I saw more character and expression in them similar to Pixar/Dreamworks stuff than what is typically seen in games, hence why I said I disagree with what you were saying.
I was disagreeing with you because I thought the opposite of what you said, not because I wanted to highlight the fact I thought you were wrong.
PEACE
P.S. Have already done a tonne of the new animation, should be uploaded this week
I know I may have come across as maybe abit jealous or something but I just ment to say in that entire paragraph there are people like Richard Williams who animated and studied under people like Milht Khal for years and only then was he a "decent animator" to them. Those are the people I consider gods at animation.
And with that I think that everyones reaction to me was a bit negative =S
Great work man!