Very nice and clean HP modeling, I dig it! Nice choice of guns too. I like how you let some oily colors in there on the AK. One suggestion though - I feel like I'm losing out on the presentation with it on a black BG like that, makes me think the whole thing is too dark, which is probably not the case. Would be nice to see it against something half-grey, or even against a blurred outdoor photo with a nice cubemap.
Snader: I first went ahead and tried to do a tangent space but I ran into some problems trying to get it looking good Marmoset. So as a workaround and stress saver I just went for the tangent space. I dont believe it would mess with animations. Only if the model deformed would there be any problems. This was my first time baking an object spaced map and I thought it came out pretty good. there were hardly any errors I had to paint out. Now I don't know if that had anything to do with which kind of normal map I baked or if it was my cage but Im not complaining.
ty Rasmus
yeah theres always a few guys that dont dig the black bg, I know it probably reads a little easier with a lighter than pure black bg but its just a preference. I can throw it on a slightly lighter color for ya just to see the difference
yeah theres always a few guys that dont dig the black bg, I know it probably reads a little easier with a lighter than pure black bg but its just a preference. I can throw it on a slightly lighter color for ya just to see the difference
If you're rendering out of marmo, green screen the sucker so you can do whatever you like with the background. A gradient and bars usually looks better than a flat tone or color imo.
Really clean bake fit for such a good model. Glad to see object space still kickin. You've got a good texture right now though I think it could be pushed further.
My main crit is that the materials, while defined decently, blend into each other. A gloss map could really really help you separate the materials, and though marmoset doesn't support it you can try detaching the areas of the mesh where there are plastic parts and use a copy of the material with less gloss. You may also want to try brightening up the metal a tad.
It also doesn't help that the plastic has white scratches as well, something that plastic doesn't usually get. You can try adding some unique spec details to break up the plastic, for example try adding some splotchies or oily areas, or even very light scrapes on the spec only. More unique details on the spec only will help for the metal too.
In addition some dirt may help add color and the overall realism.
The current scrapes look nice and crisp though the placement seems off in areas. In particular the front sight, grenade launcher barrel and mount above it, receiver cover and the scope mount on the side. Those areas would get scraped up a good bit yet have less wear than some areas that would never get beat up.
So yeah, good start but could use another pass. Awesome work so far.
Clean modeling, clean texturing! The main problem here is that it lacks any character. Large dinks and dents, some nice specific scratches to show unique wear in "focus" areas, some personalized numbers written on the buttstock with a sharpie, basically you need some focal points, as right now it all sort of blends together as a whole. As it is its a nice "base material" but you need to pop out some cool details to make it stand out. Try to cut down on the uniformity of some of the scratches and pop out some larger more unique forms.
You will also do well to get some more variation in your spec, virtually all of your materials have the same detail and value in the spec, only differences in diffuse. This is a little confusing as plastics will have a different texture and reflection amount than metals. Its sort of tough without gloss to pull these material reads off, so you've gotta push that more in the spec. Think of something like plastic, how its generally going to be less glossy than metal because it isn't as smooth, so add some noise and variation there in the plastic, and keep the metals smooth. This is a good way to "simulate" gloss in marmoset. As it is you're not really using the full range of the image, up that contrast and lower the spec value in the shader, you'll get a more dynamic material.
If you're rendering out of marmo, green screen the sucker so you can do whatever you like with the background. A gradient and bars usually looks better than a flat tone or color imo.
ooooook spent a few more hours tonight and took into consideration and tried to implement some of the feedback
changes made:
-added flash hider/muzzle
-extended the length of stock (Krazy good eye, it was short and shorter than the reciever)
-grey bg
-changed the lighting environment from night to sunny (I found this was a problem as I textured according to the night enviro which is pretty damn dark. Hence my diffuse had to be much brighter to compensate for the discrepancy)
-removed scratches from plastic parts and generally 'cleaned' up the model a bit more
-less contrast in the metal on the specular which Im finding is making it read more smooth and metal like. Also increased contrast between plastic and metal in the specular to make the difference more apparent
-removed the dirt layer. It was not really visible in the last batch of renders but with different environments I felt it was really clashing with the rest of the texture and too pronounced. Perhaps I'll add it a little more subtley
To do:
-add more unique damage and scratches
-do a dirt/grime pass
what are your thoughts? Heading in the direction? Better?
Id add smudges from greasy/sweaty hands and wear on the plastic in the spec map. A little bit of the smudges on the metal too, just to break up the spec flatness going on there.
alright, I had a day off work yesterday so I decided to come back to the AK and finish up a few more things with the texture like I said I would. Not too much has changed cept I added some grease/oily bits to the specular which helps to break up the flatness of the metal I guess you could say. I didnt want to go overkill with it but theres a little bit here and there, that you can notice on the receiver as well as the grip, launcher grip, magazine, and stock. Oh and obligatory thumb print marks on the fire selector as well.
and this Luger Ive been working on for a mod in my free time
Yeah like I said in the WAYWO thread, you've nailed a lot of the important details of the Luger quite well, including the action. Really solid work.
Looking at it now, the one thing that really looks like it could use some adjustment is the width of the bolt--the part as extends out from the elbow joint (the round bit you pull the cock the bolt), it's just a little too slim. Take a look:
This is a little further down the line, but you can also see a lot of the cool waffenampts and serial numbering in this picture--all the stuff that gets Luger collectors hot under the collar. Germans were crazy for stamping IDs on guns. Basically every single part of the Luger has a serial number stamped into it somewhere, so it's pretty easy to tell if a piece is all matching, and exactly where it came from. In the top part of the image, you can tell that at least the major elements of the frame and bolt are original to the same gun, with the serial number 59. Other parts of the gun will either have that 2-digit or a longer 4-digit serial.
Also of note (sorry if you know all this/don't care) is the factory code--here's it's the big S/42. These codes tell you where the Luger came from; the S/42 code means the original Mauser factory in Oberndorf, Germany.
If you get the serial stamping and the waffenampts (the little eagle proofs etc), then you'll have a gun model that goes the extra mile in authenticity.
At any rate, good work and looking forward to seeing you build the Luger to the kind of standards you've already set for the AK. Top notch stuff.
wow, thanks Gauss. thats insane. Did you take those pics yourself? Definitely, I'll be sure to add those little stamps. (didn't notice it in any of my ref tho, maybe I just missed it)
and you're right that whole middle piece is a little thin, I noticed too after I finished modeling it then comparing it to my ref. =/
You're welcome. And yeah, I did take the picture--already had that one uploaded, oddly enough. That particular pistol is a bring-back from the Normandy invasion, a really incredible piece that I had the honor to detail strip (hunting for a little rust on the frame, a little curating effort on my part). Aside from the unfortunate pitting on the side of the barrel you can see in the bottom picture, the gun looks practically new and the bluing is deep and lustrous.
Anyway I should be able to snag you a few more detailed shots so you can get an idea of where the serial numbers/waffenampts should go, and a pic or two of the magazine. Seriously though you've done a very good job capturing the pistol. They're like an ornate puzzle box when it comes to disassembly. Did you know that a Luger takes about three times as many milling operations to manufacture than a 1911? That kind of craftsmanship we'll basically never see again.
Anyway enough waxing poetic on the P08, I'll see what I can do for pics.
oh wow so its real too. Damn Canada's gun laws...so stupid. If I could I would buy these just to look at and collect.
Yeah if its no trouble I would appreciate a few detail shots, whatever you wouldnt mind uploading. and you're right, there were a few parts that took some extra thought figuring out. Its wierd too, at first the pistol didn't appear to be very complicated, but I soon realized how many organic shapes were present and that the modeling was going to be a little more complicated than I thought.
edit: oh I see what milling is (drilling) Maybe you could explain a little about the operation of milling and why 1 pass versus 3 is a huge deal...I'm pretty clueless when it comes to the real thing.
Really nice work Eric. Sorry I haven't gotten you any pictures, my camera's battery is dead and I can't find my charger
Looking very good. Don't listen to the guy in the WAYWO thread, the diamond pattern on the grips is right on--well, maybe it could stand a wee bit of softening with Photoshop, but not by much. It'll probably look right once you've finished with the textures.
The only thing that I can see that's off is the serial number that you've put on top of the receiver, just behind the barrel. That's where the year of manufacture goes--so put say a year between 1937 and 1942 there.
Otherwise I think it's looking pretty great overall.
If you want to be accurate with the safety, this should be behind the safety lever:
"GESICHERT" means safe, or safetied.
but good chances are you won't ever be animating the safety lever, so you can just leave it be, though now you'll know what's secretly behind that lever
Here are a few more links that show the gun in operation and in disassembly, just in case.
Oh and to answer your earlier question, what I was saying was that a milling operation means a single pass with a machine to remove a certain amount of metal from a solid block of metal, with a milling machine, making a cut. The more operations needed, the more necessarily complex the piece is. A Luger takes three times as many operations to machine as a 1911 pistol--which means that if it takes a hundred operations (an arbitrary number, I don't know how many it takes) to complete a 1911 frame, then it takes 300 to make a Luger. A nice quality Luger really is a piece of art... one that can shoot people.
thanks again Gauss for your invaluable feedback. I changed the serial number to 1940, softened up the grip texture, and basically did the texture last night and this morning. spent some time taking beauty shots and coming up with a nice way of presenting everything
Really great stuff Eric, you've done a very good job with how the gun looks in the 3 point shader, I don't know if I can ever remember seeing someone capture the subtle color ranges of a really nice old patina like that. The purple, blue highlights are absolutely spot on.
Grips came out beautifully, you even got how the form turns in space very very well. I'm impressed, very accurate.
some crits:
-pretty nice on the spots where the finish has been worn. If you were so inclined, I would vary it up a little bit--almost all the wear points look like places where the finish has been chipped a little, or otherwise from a hard strike. Most pistols, especially from this era, tend to exhibit softer wear patterns, so called "holster wear", from repeated drawing in and out of leather holsters. This wears off the finish in a much softer way. Keep the chipping, this was common too, but in a few places I'd smooth it out a little bit for some variety. Any detail you use too evenly tends to cancel itself out; variety has the spark of naturalism.
Take a look at this picture for comparison: http://www.icollector.com/images/1618/17779/17779_0700_1_lg.jpg
notice the finish that's been rubbed off near the crown on the barrel, how even and soft the wear is down the side of the pistol. This is characteristic of holster wear, slow and even wear to the finish.
-I assume you haven't quite gotten to it but the grips are wood, and should be wood colored correspondingly. The picture I posted above is a very good indication of how the grips should be colored.
-finish looks good but the base color is a little off--try giving the base diffuse a little hint of a blue-grey. Not by much, just a little.
-I'm really sorry about this, but I don't think I was clear about the serial number/year thing. Take a look at this again:
The '1937' is the only area with the year. Everything else is the four or two number serial like you had before I told you to change the year--in this case you can see the '59' on the extractor, and another '59' near the toggle joint lock. I apologize for being nerdy about this but I assume you're going for accuracy and this is how you get there.
Anyway you are so close to a really excellent portfolio piece, I've had a lot of time handling Lugers in person. If something was super wonky I'd probably know or be thinking something looks "off" about the model, but it really does look like the real thing. Nail these last few details and you've got it.
oh ok. Yeah I was a little confused I wasnt sure which serial or year number you meant, I thought u meant both
but thank you for the well thought out critique as always. having some one provide feedback whose seen these things up close and personal is really invaluable information. Is the grip really wood? I would never have guessed that in a million years. I noticed in some of my refs that there were some with a wood grain pattern, but because of the finish on them I just assumed they were plastic with a painted wood pattern. I did also see some versions where the grip was completely black, or at least they appeared pretty black to me, so thats what I tried to go for. I guess I could try out a wood pattern on the grip, that would probably look pretty neat
You're welcome. And it's funny--honestly it was not until I was personally detail stripping a Luger, taking apart the whole thing, that I realized the grips were actually wood, so I don't blame you they're so precisely made it just doesn't seem like it at all.. look at the big side profile image I linked you and you can see the more typical wear pattern--the diamonds tend to get a little darker from dirt/wear than the recessed areas, which tend to stay more wood-colored.
looking really nice eric. some really nice wear here and there but I think it can be pushed a bit more to give it a bit more character along the lines gauss has already stated.
one thing, dont show your normal maps on ugly black blackgrounds, they look silly that way. also you dont want any black pixles to bleed over when mipping down. its already apparent that your normal padding is bleeding onto eachother because your UV's are packed a little to tight.
also why do you not have any of the wear detail/scratches in your normal map? you should as when the light catches these nicks and dings it will help define the scratches with the small indents in the paint/metal they would cause.
auto: hmm never thought of that. Alright for future work I'll remember to keep a blue bg.
and wear tear in the normal? I'm going to have to disagree. For this style, realistic weapons, I find when people add in tiny scratches in the normal it really throws the material out of whack. I remember seeing a spas 12 that would have looked great if not for many tiny scratches and dings in the normal that made it appear like the thing was made out of iron and weighed a 1000 lbs.
lone: oh yeah can't forget some dirt baby
anyways, the luger's been on hold for a bit, heres a little something I've been working on over the past few days. Rendered with 3point shader lite by the way in max 2010
I think the building needs more oomph. Better transitions between the different brick colors and some localized dirt/drips around the structural elements would add a lot. Localized dirt could be done with decals.
Also, your bricks are a little bit noisier than the reference, maybe smooth out the color variations for the diffuse texture and leave the variation in the spec?
Alec: I just did this as an exercise not to include alphas/decals like Arc said. the goal was just to build a nice 'base' asset you could plop into the editor and then in there you could dress up with decals n stuff up the wazoo
but here I tried to make the brick more uniform to match the reference like you said and left some variation in the spec
K I think this is it for this. added the wood texture, the safety text, some more scratches here and there, n basically tried to make it look more like one of Gauss' ref shots.
Replies
Is this easier? Wouldn't this mess with animations? Does it bake cleaner?
Nice model.
Snader: I first went ahead and tried to do a tangent space but I ran into some problems trying to get it looking good Marmoset. So as a workaround and stress saver I just went for the tangent space. I dont believe it would mess with animations. Only if the model deformed would there be any problems. This was my first time baking an object spaced map and I thought it came out pretty good. there were hardly any errors I had to paint out. Now I don't know if that had anything to do with which kind of normal map I baked or if it was my cage but Im not complaining.
ty Rasmus
yeah theres always a few guys that dont dig the black bg, I know it probably reads a little easier with a lighter than pure black bg but its just a preference. I can throw it on a slightly lighter color for ya just to see the difference
If you're rendering out of marmo, green screen the sucker so you can do whatever you like with the background. A gradient and bars usually looks better than a flat tone or color imo.
My main crit is that the materials, while defined decently, blend into each other. A gloss map could really really help you separate the materials, and though marmoset doesn't support it you can try detaching the areas of the mesh where there are plastic parts and use a copy of the material with less gloss. You may also want to try brightening up the metal a tad.
It also doesn't help that the plastic has white scratches as well, something that plastic doesn't usually get. You can try adding some unique spec details to break up the plastic, for example try adding some splotchies or oily areas, or even very light scrapes on the spec only. More unique details on the spec only will help for the metal too.
In addition some dirt may help add color and the overall realism.
The current scrapes look nice and crisp though the placement seems off in areas. In particular the front sight, grenade launcher barrel and mount above it, receiver cover and the scope mount on the side. Those areas would get scraped up a good bit yet have less wear than some areas that would never get beat up.
So yeah, good start but could use another pass. Awesome work so far.
+ it will help u see the maps work better
You will also do well to get some more variation in your spec, virtually all of your materials have the same detail and value in the spec, only differences in diffuse. This is a little confusing as plastics will have a different texture and reflection amount than metals. Its sort of tough without gloss to pull these material reads off, so you've gotta push that more in the spec. Think of something like plastic, how its generally going to be less glossy than metal because it isn't as smooth, so add some noise and variation there in the plastic, and keep the metals smooth. This is a good way to "simulate" gloss in marmoset. As it is you're not really using the full range of the image, up that contrast and lower the spec value in the shader, you'll get a more dynamic material.
how do you do that?
changes made:
-added flash hider/muzzle
-extended the length of stock (Krazy good eye, it was short and shorter than the reciever)
-grey bg
-changed the lighting environment from night to sunny (I found this was a problem as I textured according to the night enviro which is pretty damn dark. Hence my diffuse had to be much brighter to compensate for the discrepancy)
-removed scratches from plastic parts and generally 'cleaned' up the model a bit more
-less contrast in the metal on the specular which Im finding is making it read more smooth and metal like. Also increased contrast between plastic and metal in the specular to make the difference more apparent
-removed the dirt layer. It was not really visible in the last batch of renders but with different environments I felt it was really clashing with the rest of the texture and too pronounced. Perhaps I'll add it a little more subtley
To do:
-add more unique damage and scratches
-do a dirt/grime pass
what are your thoughts? Heading in the direction? Better?
I feel its looking a lot better already myself
Only thing I would suggest is adding a couple scratches to the handles.. They look a little too perfect compared to the rest of the gun.
I'll be looking forward to the end product
and this Luger Ive been working on for a mod in my free time
for the luger can u post wires too plz ?
Looking at it now, the one thing that really looks like it could use some adjustment is the width of the bolt--the part as extends out from the elbow joint (the round bit you pull the cock the bolt), it's just a little too slim. Take a look:
This is a little further down the line, but you can also see a lot of the cool waffenampts and serial numbering in this picture--all the stuff that gets Luger collectors hot under the collar. Germans were crazy for stamping IDs on guns. Basically every single part of the Luger has a serial number stamped into it somewhere, so it's pretty easy to tell if a piece is all matching, and exactly where it came from. In the top part of the image, you can tell that at least the major elements of the frame and bolt are original to the same gun, with the serial number 59. Other parts of the gun will either have that 2-digit or a longer 4-digit serial.
Also of note (sorry if you know all this/don't care) is the factory code--here's it's the big S/42. These codes tell you where the Luger came from; the S/42 code means the original Mauser factory in Oberndorf, Germany.
If you get the serial stamping and the waffenampts (the little eagle proofs etc), then you'll have a gun model that goes the extra mile in authenticity.
At any rate, good work and looking forward to seeing you build the Luger to the kind of standards you've already set for the AK. Top notch stuff.
and you're right that whole middle piece is a little thin, I noticed too after I finished modeling it then comparing it to my ref. =/
Anyway I should be able to snag you a few more detailed shots so you can get an idea of where the serial numbers/waffenampts should go, and a pic or two of the magazine. Seriously though you've done a very good job capturing the pistol. They're like an ornate puzzle box when it comes to disassembly. Did you know that a Luger takes about three times as many milling operations to manufacture than a 1911? That kind of craftsmanship we'll basically never see again.
Anyway enough waxing poetic on the P08, I'll see what I can do for pics.
Yeah if its no trouble I would appreciate a few detail shots, whatever you wouldnt mind uploading. and you're right, there were a few parts that took some extra thought figuring out. Its wierd too, at first the pistol didn't appear to be very complicated, but I soon realized how many organic shapes were present and that the modeling was going to be a little more complicated than I thought.
edit: oh I see what milling is (drilling) Maybe you could explain a little about the operation of milling and why 1 pass versus 3 is a huge deal...I'm pretty clueless when it comes to the real thing.
Looking very good. Don't listen to the guy in the WAYWO thread, the diamond pattern on the grips is right on--well, maybe it could stand a wee bit of softening with Photoshop, but not by much. It'll probably look right once you've finished with the textures.
The only thing that I can see that's off is the serial number that you've put on top of the receiver, just behind the barrel. That's where the year of manufacture goes--so put say a year between 1937 and 1942 there.
Otherwise I think it's looking pretty great overall.
If you want to be accurate with the safety, this should be behind the safety lever:
"GESICHERT" means safe, or safetied.
but good chances are you won't ever be animating the safety lever, so you can just leave it be, though now you'll know what's secretly behind that lever
Here are a few more links that show the gun in operation and in disassembly, just in case.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/pistolp08luger/operations.asp
http://www.surplusrifle.com/pistolp08luger/disassemble/index.asp
Grips came out beautifully, you even got how the form turns in space very very well. I'm impressed, very accurate.
some crits:
-pretty nice on the spots where the finish has been worn. If you were so inclined, I would vary it up a little bit--almost all the wear points look like places where the finish has been chipped a little, or otherwise from a hard strike. Most pistols, especially from this era, tend to exhibit softer wear patterns, so called "holster wear", from repeated drawing in and out of leather holsters. This wears off the finish in a much softer way. Keep the chipping, this was common too, but in a few places I'd smooth it out a little bit for some variety. Any detail you use too evenly tends to cancel itself out; variety has the spark of naturalism.
Take a look at this picture for comparison:
http://www.icollector.com/images/1618/17779/17779_0700_1_lg.jpg
notice the finish that's been rubbed off near the crown on the barrel, how even and soft the wear is down the side of the pistol. This is characteristic of holster wear, slow and even wear to the finish.
In fact this looks like a really nice site to get a lot of nice high res pics of Lugers you can take some realistic detailing from.
http://www.icollector.com/search.aspx?q=Luger
Also some nice Luger (with close-ups of proof marks) here http://www.neaca.com/Military-Firearms.html
-I assume you haven't quite gotten to it but the grips are wood, and should be wood colored correspondingly. The picture I posted above is a very good indication of how the grips should be colored.
-finish looks good but the base color is a little off--try giving the base diffuse a little hint of a blue-grey. Not by much, just a little.
-I'm really sorry about this, but I don't think I was clear about the serial number/year thing. Take a look at this again:
The '1937' is the only area with the year. Everything else is the four or two number serial like you had before I told you to change the year--in this case you can see the '59' on the extractor, and another '59' near the toggle joint lock. I apologize for being nerdy about this but I assume you're going for accuracy and this is how you get there.
Anyway you are so close to a really excellent portfolio piece, I've had a lot of time handling Lugers in person. If something was super wonky I'd probably know or be thinking something looks "off" about the model, but it really does look like the real thing. Nail these last few details and you've got it.
but thank you for the well thought out critique as always. having some one provide feedback whose seen these things up close and personal is really invaluable information. Is the grip really wood? I would never have guessed that in a million years. I noticed in some of my refs that there were some with a wood grain pattern, but because of the finish on them I just assumed they were plastic with a painted wood pattern. I did also see some versions where the grip was completely black, or at least they appeared pretty black to me, so thats what I tried to go for. I guess I could try out a wood pattern on the grip, that would probably look pretty neat
Great work eric!
one thing, dont show your normal maps on ugly black blackgrounds, they look silly that way. also you dont want any black pixles to bleed over when mipping down. its already apparent that your normal padding is bleeding onto eachother because your UV's are packed a little to tight.
also why do you not have any of the wear detail/scratches in your normal map? you should as when the light catches these nicks and dings it will help define the scratches with the small indents in the paint/metal they would cause.
and wear tear in the normal? I'm going to have to disagree. For this style, realistic weapons, I find when people add in tiny scratches in the normal it really throws the material out of whack. I remember seeing a spas 12 that would have looked great if not for many tiny scratches and dings in the normal that made it appear like the thing was made out of iron and weighed a 1000 lbs.
lone: oh yeah can't forget some dirt baby
anyways, the luger's been on hold for a bit, heres a little something I've been working on over the past few days. Rendered with 3point shader lite by the way in max 2010
Also, your bricks are a little bit noisier than the reference, maybe smooth out the color variations for the diffuse texture and leave the variation in the spec?
Alec: I just did this as an exercise not to include alphas/decals like Arc said. the goal was just to build a nice 'base' asset you could plop into the editor and then in there you could dress up with decals n stuff up the wazoo
but here I tried to make the brick more uniform to match the reference like you said and left some variation in the spec
One of your finest pieces!