If you'd been around for long enough you'd know we actually used to do all modeling in tris at one point. Then along came the whole mirai/meshtools revolution for intelligent quad modeling and nobody ever looked back.
I just went to the nendo/mirai website and I don't think it has ever changed. ever. Does anyone still use this?
it hasn't changed because to be honest it doesn't need to
they had NLA, texturing in their window, AMAZING polygon tools and everything you need.. 10 years ago* In fact i still think many of mirai's tools are still the best! (nla for instance so much more straightforward and simple) they have improved slightly.
the last project i heard mirai being used was LOTR.
i watched the 2nd part again and it does actually look like he's doing the lowpoly mesh purely in triangles
I've also seen some of the greatest artists use some of the hokiest, hackiest, and slowest workarounds imaginable. Being a great artist doesn't always mean you are doing it the most efficient, fastest, or smartest way possible. Ever seen an all-star not using hotkeys? Makes you want to shake em.
Fun fact: the whole meshtools thing started because I promised to buy Laszlo a beer if he'd write a few scripts for me. Hurray for beer!
This explains why earlier versions were released with a "beerware" license. I remember the .txt said something like to have a license you must buy the author a beer, and since you should take your trip to him for this, the script actually counted only about ten registered users
That was really great and it is one of the thoughts that encouraged me, many years later, to write and release my own set of tools
there is some truth to what this cat is trying to argue, but he's got some issues articulating it. it is a fact that a volume can most easily be represented by triangles (not just triangulated quads, but any shape and order of triangles), and i think the clearest example of that is when you decimate a mesh. there is no way you would be able to drop the polycount anywhere NEAR a decimated mesh if you were limiting yourself to quads and edgeloops.
however, where this argument ends is that edge loops are so incredibly useful, this isn't even a discussion. but in theory, triangles are more liberating as far as representing forms, and can therefore do it more efficiently. no need to terminate edge loops, it's as simple as having a face where there needs to be a face.
so, ya, you'd have to be nuts to avoid modeling with loops, and your animators would be nuts to accept a model without them, but if you're an asset artist and feel compelled to go back and tessellate, go for it
unless your working on mobile devices, then this whole discussion is almost pointless.
geometry is so cheap now i cant remember the last time i even looked at the actual polycount, i just make it look good and be as conservative as possible.. saving a few hundred polies by using tris doesn't really add up to much. its textures that destroy your frame, if it was 1998 then by all means shave off as many as you need, but really those days are gone, unless your making ds games.
i didnt read the thread in depth, but just to add to the points made.
other than a Ds or psp games, poly counts aren't that really big of a problem, with current characters in games anywhere between 10-20k polys. the bigger hits, are fill rates, opacity sorting, texture memory etc. if you cant get good art out with current game specs(polycount wise), you cant get good art out. i dont even really pay attention to poly counts, and have never been asked to reduce my polys for the last few years.
show me any frame rate difference in any engine with your examples and i would be greatly surprized.
otherwise, know that your mesh is "always" triangles anyways, and when working with quads, you can simply "tun on" triangulation to edit or conrol the splitting while working with quads. the only benifit i see to the dom war model you posted, is just being able to see all the splitting and find any Non planar polys, or "dirty polys' near important edges before baking.
if you are newer to game art i would recomend not even thinking about limitations and taking the "art" as far as you can, when you get to a studio you can worry about the specifics or limitations then, but just make good art reguardless of polys or any limitations
Yannisk, I don't wish to be rude, I know you take yourself very seriously, but I don't. Not by a long shot. I haven't replied to you in the past, nor will I reply in the future, unless it's for the lol.
you already did though just to insult shows character.
I would gladly discuss any valid argument in a civilized manner without "ZOMG your lolz idiot you know nuttin bleh"
meshiah what you are saying is very correct!
some applications though support polygons natively afaik.
in the end.. it is usually triangles.
Max Pro Tip: Apply Turn to Mesh, uncheck "use Invisible Edges" and collapse. Go into vert mode, select all and click break. Check the model in and wait for your fellow co-workers to carry you around on their shoulders after they crown you mayor of cubeville.
The weird thing with max is that most tools if collapsed on the stack still default to editable mesh if the base is primitive and, Map Scaler, MultiRes, proOptimizer as well as others do so regardless... which is something that should definitely be fixed. Not a major if you collapse from the quad or by shortcut but..
The weird thing with max is that most tools if collapsed on the stack still default to editable mesh if the base is primitive and, Map Scaler, MultiRes, proOptimizer as well as others do so regardless... which is something that should definitely be fixed. Not a major if you collapse from the quad or by shortcut but..
Yeah, this makes Maxscripting a pain in the ass. loads of stuff only works on meshs or returns face indexs in mesh format rather than poly format :poly127:
I just finished reading this entire delicious thread and really dont understand why you guys are getting all butt hurt over tris vrs quads. tucker what you really should start spending several months investigating and researching is point cloud data. By the end of the year I can say with good confidence everything will be modeled in verts and you wont have to worry about tri counts anymore.
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=70749 Here is a good read for you. It should help eliminate any confusion you have on this whole subject because clearly no one here has explained why modeling in tris is bad and given you enough detailed examples.
Plus tris and quads are just visual representations of vert points, a computer dosnt save data on your tri or quad, its all on vert position(numbers) angle (numbers) color (numbers) and so forth. so you if you start learning how to model in verts you will be head of the game!
Replies
I just went to the nendo/mirai website and I don't think it has ever changed. ever. Does anyone still use this?
they had NLA, texturing in their window, AMAZING polygon tools and everything you need.. 10 years ago*
the last project i heard mirai being used was LOTR.
1999 enjoy..
[ame]
and this appears to be uploaded on 2007.
[ame]
btw the little brother nendo is available for demo on xp 32 only i think.
Fun fact: the whole meshtools thing started because I promised to buy Laszlo a beer if he'd write a few scripts for me. Hurray for beer!
I've also seen some of the greatest artists use some of the hokiest, hackiest, and slowest workarounds imaginable. Being a great artist doesn't always mean you are doing it the most efficient, fastest, or smartest way possible. Ever seen an all-star not using hotkeys? Makes you want to shake em.
This explains why earlier versions were released with a "beerware" license. I remember the .txt said something like to have a license you must buy the author a beer, and since you should take your trip to him for this, the script actually counted only about ten registered users
That was really great and it is one of the thoughts that encouraged me, many years later, to write and release my own set of tools
however, where this argument ends is that edge loops are so incredibly useful, this isn't even a discussion. but in theory, triangles are more liberating as far as representing forms, and can therefore do it more efficiently. no need to terminate edge loops, it's as simple as having a face where there needs to be a face.
so, ya, you'd have to be nuts to avoid modeling with loops, and your animators would be nuts to accept a model without them, but if you're an asset artist and feel compelled to go back and tessellate, go for it
Are you so sure, I've heard theory's that there is a hidden, extra vertex.
geometry is so cheap now i cant remember the last time i even looked at the actual polycount, i just make it look good and be as conservative as possible.. saving a few hundred polies by using tris doesn't really add up to much. its textures that destroy your frame, if it was 1998 then by all means shave off as many as you need, but really those days are gone, unless your making ds games.
other than a Ds or psp games, poly counts aren't that really big of a problem, with current characters in games anywhere between 10-20k polys. the bigger hits, are fill rates, opacity sorting, texture memory etc. if you cant get good art out with current game specs(polycount wise), you cant get good art out. i dont even really pay attention to poly counts, and have never been asked to reduce my polys for the last few years.
show me any frame rate difference in any engine with your examples and i would be greatly surprized.
otherwise, know that your mesh is "always" triangles anyways, and when working with quads, you can simply "tun on" triangulation to edit or conrol the splitting while working with quads. the only benifit i see to the dom war model you posted, is just being able to see all the splitting and find any Non planar polys, or "dirty polys' near important edges before baking.
if you are newer to game art i would recomend not even thinking about limitations and taking the "art" as far as you can, when you get to a studio you can worry about the specifics or limitations then, but just make good art reguardless of polys or any limitations
my 2c
r
you already did though
I would gladly discuss any valid argument in a civilized manner without "ZOMG your lolz idiot you know nuttin bleh"
meshiah what you are saying is very correct!
some applications though support polygons natively afaik.
in the end.. it is usually triangles.
The weird thing with max is that most tools if collapsed on the stack still default to editable mesh if the base is primitive and, Map Scaler, MultiRes, proOptimizer as well as others do so regardless... which is something that should definitely be fixed. Not a major if you collapse from the quad or by shortcut but..
Its faster, sleeker, more organised, and if you need to optimise some areas that will work better as tris, its just a simple cut away.
Yeah, this makes Maxscripting a pain in the ass. loads of stuff only works on meshs or returns face indexs in mesh format rather than poly format :poly127:
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=70749 Here is a good read for you. It should help eliminate any confusion you have on this whole subject because clearly no one here has explained why modeling in tris is bad and given you enough detailed examples.
Plus tris and quads are just visual representations of vert points, a computer dosnt save data on your tri or quad, its all on vert position(numbers) angle (numbers) color (numbers) and so forth. so you if you start learning how to model in verts you will be head of the game!