But there's been a pretty wide tolerance for the stuff years before that even happened (notably placed like Canabis Cafe in Vancouver, which very publicly allowed their patrons to come in and smoke up).
I understand there's likely a difference in social tolerance for the stuff compared to the states, but maybe simply decriminalizing it might be a compromise that should be looked at (it's still illegal to grow it, but nothing more than a fine and confiscation for posession of it).
you dont get arrested if you get caught with a small amount, you just get a ticket. but thats only under a certain amount. if you get caught with enough that they think you are selling, you`re still screwed. even so though, no one wants a ticket for that on their file.
Tar is not in pot...That is like saying tomatoes carry tar. Pot is grown, cut, hung, dried, smoked.
Err, perhaps you've smoked too much? Or not enough? :P
Tobacco is also grown, cut, hung, dried then smoked. Even 100% organic brands have tar. Have you even smoked weed before? Ever had to clean out a pipe or a bong? That black ass sticky, gooey shit? That's not just THC compound "resin". Those compounds are clear; the tar and carcinogens are what make it black and sticky.
While there aren't any documented cases of major longterm health effects from smoking weed, it's certainly not "good" for you. The major negative effects of cigarettes are likely due to the arsenic and other additives they put into them as well. But breathing in any smoke, regardless of whether it's pure or not, has negative consequences, minor or otherwise. It's SMOKE - by it's very nature a carcinogen. Come on now.
The only way to avoid the negative smoke effects of either weed or tobacco, is to use a vaporizer. It releases compound vapors without actually burning the base substance (no smoke, no carcinogens). But those things cost like $600. :poly124:
tar isn't "in" things, it is a byproduct of burning matter. 30 days is a pathetically short test for something like tar's build up and effect on the lungs. Have you ever seen what a smoker's lung looks like?
That tar build up is from the inhalation of smoke from burning matter. Pot is totally unfiltered and totally unprocessed raw plant fiber, it burns more purely and creates far more tar. This is not a myth or misinformation, this is science. Sure tomatoes have tar...if you burn them and inhale the smoke.
Arguing for the medical benefits is ridiculous because chemically synthesized THC is not only cheaper and more effective, but it cuts out all harmful side effects of smoking.
edit: doh, didn't notice the last page. Vassago covered it...
Well to be fair to all other burning matter tobacco starts off as a sticky mess that secretes tar and nicotine. It gets planted in gardens to trap small bugs.
Since when is the health of those who smoke it a concern when making a law? It should be the individuals' right to consume whatever he or she wants, because it is his or her body to deal with. As long as the government and companies make sure my quality of life isn't affected by others dealing harm to their bodies, I'm fine with individuals doing whatever they want to their bodies.
this really is an interesting subject - marijuana legalization.
I personally am on the fence about it.
There are many pro's to making it legal - hell, the benefit alone of being able to grow hemp is almost worth it.
One thing i'm curious about is the long term negatives that would arise from making marijuana legal. There is plenty of hypothetical 'what if' things that could happen.
i can already hear the big 'ol "told you so" by the naysayers when legal marijuana becomes the cause of increased use among teens, the cause of increased vehicle accidents, etc etc.
-anyways, just my rant because I do believe this is a tougher subject than allowing people to get high legally.
in this thread: very people who have smoked or frequently been around it.
i used to smoke quite a significant amount, but am now the only one of my immediate associates who doesn't. it was simply a personal choice. i am lethargic and fairly apathetic to begin with, and the overall effects of smoking frequently were simply not helping. i would never blame it, it would just be unwise to ignore it as a contributing factor.
the majority of the people i know though seem to be pretty much unhindered by it, and if you're around people who smoke a lot it honestly gets to the point where you would never be able to tell if they're high or not. (that's not to say when they're not high...they act as if they are, but instead the other way around).
looking at this from a logical perspective, trying to approach it from an economical standpoint, it's easy to make arguments about the benefit of hemp crops etc...
it's also easy to defend the effects of marijuana, i.e. comparing it to alcohol in that there have been no deaths, or that the smoke is significantly less harmful than cigarettes...all that noise.
HOWEVER, when it comes down to it, i just think defending or condemning it one way or the other is completely irrelevant. i honestly wouldn't care if it killed you after smoking it 10 times. the fact is, smoking marijuana is a very personal choice, and so long as you are really only affecting yourself (limiting it to smoking in private locations etc), i really feel as if it should be the individuals prerogative. i don't know why it has to be such a scandal.
i mean i arguably think there should be no such thing as illegal substances, but i also have found myself often placing too much faith in humanity. i mean when i think about it, or ask the majority of the people i know, who of you avoids heroin BECAUSE it's illegal? i most certainly don't. i avoid it because it's almost guaranteed to serve as a detrimental force in your life. and if heroin were to become legal tomorrow, would the numbers just go off the charts? i don't think so, as i really don't see legality holding people who are going to do drugs back.
that being said, if the entire nation were to simply start doing heroin the day it became legal...i would still have very little to say in regret. that is a choice i believe an individual has the right to make, and i would just be very disappointed with the choices they made.
Few people would do heroin and those that would would have a good medical condition
and could get on with their life. There are plenty people who carried on with their normal life on heroin its only when you dont have the money that you need that you get really fucked up because you can only spend your day searching for things to steal.
@Ralusek - I started smoking when I was 13, then smoking weed and crank when I was 15. I'm not exactly uneducated on the subject.
The reason substances are illegal is because dipshits blaze up, drink up or shoot up, then drive a fucking car. Beat their fucking wives and kids. Steal. KILL PEOPLE. That shit affects ME. Doing something harmful to your body IS a personal choice, but don't be so naive as to think it doesn't affect anyone else.
That's not why it is illegal at all...legal or not...the individuals that are going to do that...are going to do that...
But you cant say that everyone that smokes a joint is going to kill someone.
That's like saying everyone that has a drink is a wino.
it's Simple . Educate. Regulate.
@Ralusek - I started smoking when I was 13, then smoking weed and crank when I was 15. I'm not exactly uneducated on the subject.
The reason substances are illegal is because dipshits blaze up, drink up or shoot up, then drive a fucking car. Beat their fucking wives and kids. Steal. KILL PEOPLE. That shit affects ME. Doing something harmful to your body IS a personal choice, but don't be so naive as to think it doesn't affect anyone else.
firstly, really?
secondly, a fan of the super nanny state eh? All sorts of things can become dangerous to other people. The first thing that pops into my mind is driving cars within 1000 yards of another person.
as long as we're not subjected to hours more tedious fucking stories from be-hatted skinny-jeaned cuntfaces about what they did last night whilst being "totally muntered, man", when all you want to do is grab them by their wackily stitched blazer and scream "YOU'RE TWELVE, GO AND CLIMB A TREE OR SOMETHING YOU EMBARRASING PRICK", i'm fine with all legalization of drugs
Shit, you're right, aesir. We should let everyone drive intoxicated on the freeways and operate high-rise construction cranes while doped up.
You didn't suggest that we prevent people from driving intoxicated. You said to make the intoxicants illegal in case they drive. There's a large difference there.
just save us all some fucking time and effort and make it legal. tax it, then let people find something else (hopefully less retarded) to complain about
You didn't suggest that we prevent people from driving intoxicated. You said to make the intoxicants illegal in case they drive. There's a large difference there.
well, as long as both cases are handled by the cops, i'm sure we'll be fine
Regardless of any doomsday scenarios you can come up with that will occur because of the legalization of marijuana the reduction in violent and dangerous activity because people are getting high instead of drunk will overrule it.
Pot is almost completely harmless when compared to alcohol; one of the most destructive forces known to man.
Are you serious?
As it stands, in order to become an alcoholic, you have to drink large amounts of alcohol over a long period of time. Chances are, you've never met the pot equivalent because:
a) Only a small amount of the population takes pot, and
b) Only a small amount of pot users take enough to qualify as being the equivalent of an alcoholic (whatever it's called for pot smokers).
Unfortunately I know someone - my brother in law - who has been taking large amounts of pot for many years, and he now has been diagnosed with marijuana-induced psychosis. As long as he continues to take it then there's no worries, but as soon as he stops it is genuinely frightening.
If you didn't know any better, you'd swear he has multiple personality disorder, so quickly can his mood change from normal to absolute, destructive rage. I'm not joking when I say it is downright scary how suddenly he transforms. When consumed by the rage I have no doubt that he cannot even comprehend the identity of people around him: Stranger, family member, doesn't matter.
The doctors believe that he could stop smoking now and he may have a chance to fully recover, but there's no guarantees. And this guy ain't quitting anyway. The saddest thing? He's only 24, been smoking heavily for 10 years. He'll be crippled by this for the rest of his life...
Now, you might say that this is a rare case, but how rare will it be when pot is freely available to all in unlimited quantities? Given the choice of angry people after you, would you prefer an angry drunk who has little control over their balance and coordination, or a perfectly coordinated, murderous psychosis sufferer?
Please be aware I'm not saying pot shouldn't be legalised, because I actually believe it should be. But please, stop saying pot is harmless. It's far from it, it just takes a bit longer for the problems to manifest.
College, the smell, and the general lack of misinformation/ignorance (blind or willful) on the matter were the biggest contributors to my very negative view of pot.
Been around plenty of chronic smokers (had to live with one for a year which was absolutely awful) so I'm not one without personal experience on the matter.
I generally distrust anything that plays with my brain chemistry though...anything that is altering the flow, release, and distribution of important joyand motivation related brain chemicals is not something I take lightly.
As it stands, in order to become an alcoholic, you have to drink large amounts of alcohol over a long period of time. Chances are, you've never met the pot equivalent because:
a) Only a small amount of the population takes pot, and
b) Only a small amount of pot users take enough to qualify as being the equivalent of an alcoholic (whatever it's called for pot smokers).
Unfortunately I know someone - my brother in law - who has been taking large amounts of pot for many years, and he now has been diagnosed with marijuana-induced psychosis. As long as he continues to take it then there's no worries, but as soon as he stops it is genuinely frightening.
If you didn't know any better, you'd swear he has multiple personality disorder, so quickly can his mood change from normal to absolute, destructive rage. I'm not joking when I say it is downright scary how suddenly he transforms. When consumed by the rage I have no doubt that he cannot even comprehend the identity of people around him: Stranger, family member, doesn't matter.
The doctors believe that he could stop smoking now and he may have a chance to fully recover, but there's no guarantees. And this guy ain't quitting anyway. The saddest thing? He's only 24, been smoking heavily for 10 years. He'll be crippled by this for the rest of his life...
Now, you might say that this is a rare case, but how rare will it be when pot is freely available to all in unlimited quantities? Given the choice of angry people after you, would you prefer an angry drunk who has little control over their balance and coordination, or a perfectly coordinated, murderous psychosis sufferer?
and i think you don't understand how destructive alchohol can be to a person who has been heavily drinking for years. so you get psychotic after 10 years of heavy pot-smoking.
after 10 years of heavy drinking, you die.
actually, an excessive intake of alcohol can kill you, even if you haven't been drinking for 10 years. a friend of mine binged on liquor, and he passed out. he had to be driven away in an ambulance to be pumped, otherwise he would have died.
alcohol destroys your body, and also causes a wide range of psychotic effects when you're not drinking. amongst these are psychosis, panic disorder, confusion, and a wide range of mental impairments.
for anyone to die from cannabis smoking, they'd have to inhale 512kg within 10 minutes.
you have a higher chance of dying from excessive intake of water.
@Ralusek - I started smoking when I was 13, then smoking weed and crank when I was 15. I'm not exactly uneducated on the subject.
The reason substances are illegal is because dipshits blaze up, drink up or shoot up, then drive a fucking car. Beat their fucking wives and kids. Steal. KILL PEOPLE. That shit affects ME. Doing something harmful to your body IS a personal choice, but don't be so naive as to think it doesn't affect anyone else.
No one is naive that there are dumbasses out there that make the wrong decisions under the influence, but no, the reason Marijuana is illegal is not because of dipshits who make the wrong decisions once they blaze up, it was due to sensationalist bullshit and big business decades ago that still permeates today; http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/
Playing the blame game about drugs is passing the buck instead of taking personal responsibility. If we were to make every drug illegal because it 'turns a few people into bad decision makers' then say goodbye to alcohol, tobacco, any drug period. And it is kinda funny to think that people who believe that are the same people who work in an industry that has been under fire for 'turning people into killers', its the same blame game, only decades and/or centuries older.
That's why the facts about Marijuana need to be taught in schools properly, people need the facts, not the ol 'weed funds terrorism', 'weed turns people into lazy idiots', mantra, but that if you decide to use it, you use it responsibly, recognize how it affects your body and make responsible decisions with it.
If the people are all sustaining these numerous amounts of pot businesses, it should tell you what the people want? If the people did not want them, they would would not purchase their product, and they would go out of business? Right?
As it stands, in order to become an alcoholic, you have to drink large amounts of alcohol over a long period of time.
You've never met a pot addict because pot is a Habituating substance not an addictive substance like alcohol, nicotine, heroin, meth, pain killers or sleep aids (notice that 4 of those 6 are legal substances).
The things listed above all change the bodies composition and have nasty negative side effects when the person stops, withdrawal. When people stop smoking pot they don't go through withdrawal, they might miss the feeling of being high like someone misses not having a 24-7 organism but that's not withdrawal. If they smoke too much they might damage themselves (again not addiction) but you can do that with a bunch of other things that aren't considered harmful.
Self moderation is the key.
Unfortunately I know someone - my brother in law - who has been taking large amounts of pot for many years, and he now has been diagnosed with marijuana-induced psychosis. As long as he continues to take it then there's no worries, but as soon as he stops it is genuinely frightening.
If you didn't know any better, you'd swear he has multiple personality disorder...
Your brother in law is probably bipolar or has some other mental illness more than likely not brought on by the pot. He probably self medicates because it balances him out the best he can. It's not an ideal solution, but he's actually picked the least harmful of the drugs. He probably would have met some kind of end a lot sooner had he picked something else.
He should get professional help for his issues and probably kick his pot habit. Just stopping smoking won't cure him of his rage. He's damaged goods for life. If he stops smoking then you'll see his mental illness in all of its full on ugliness.
Normal people who can moderate their behavior and are not mentally ill, don't have this problem. Certain people should not use certain things to mask serious issues. Just like short people shouldn't ride roller coasters and alcoholics shouldn't tend bar.
Now, you might say that this is a rare case, but how rare will it be when pot is freely available to all in unlimited quantities? Given the choice of angry people after you, would you prefer an angry drunk who has little control over their balance and coordination, or a perfectly coordinated, murderous psychosis sufferer?
I would rather have the mentally ill get the help they need from professionals.
If that can't happen I would rather see them piss their life away watching TV, getting high and containing the rage the best they can. Rather than be out and about with their bi-polar, manic flag flying 24-7.
If the people are all sustaining these numerous amounts of pot businesses, it should tell you what the people want? If the people did not want them, they would would not purchase their product, and they would go out of business? Right?
Now ask this, what percent of the money coming in is actually from legal trade or is it coming from continued illegal trade? There have been more than a few federal busts on shops housing metric tons of pot. Way more than you can move legally. They left the honest pot shops alone, which are struggling...
You can get more $ for the same amount of pot on the black market. So if you're used to selling on the black market why would you cut your profits? You're already used to selling at a risk, having a legal store front just gives you a bit of protection to further rake in the cash illegally as well as giving you a way to semi-launder the cash.
The illegal side is only going to get worse as time goes on UNLESS the black markets across California's boarders suddenly dry up, making the legal trade the path of least resistance to the biggest reward.
It's going to make it really hard for California to lead by example. It needs to be a nation wide effort otherwise California will be a legal hub for illegal trade making it more of a mess then it needs to be.
I'm not against California legalizing it. I just think they shouldn't go it alone because it will cause trouble for them and their neighboring states. Possibly failing, polarizing people and pushing off rational discussion of the issue for decades until people calm down.
I'm also all for re-industrialization of hemp and care way more about that than someone's right to get high.
Ebagg, do you honestly believe there are "just a few" bad people out there? That's not an optimistic view of humanity, it's a blindingly innacurate one.
Regardless of whether or not you or people you know are the most responsible pot heads on the planet it doesn't change the fact that most people out there are guiltless, common sense lacking, selfish idiots. Spend a day working in retail or food service and you'll get a pretty good taste for the selfless responsible nature of most people...
Vig - I didn't know you had a doctorate in psychological disorders and knew the guy's whole back history and what he has and hasn't tried? Maybe not be so presumptuous about the mental state of someone you've only heard about in a two paragraph story. Extreme Bi-Polar disease is a very quickly recognized illness with a great deal of therapeutic and medicinal support; not something that a doctor or family would just fail to think of.
so sandbag, I agree that the majority of people are pretty dumb and often dangerous. What do you believe the government's role should be in limiting the ability of dumb people from affecting your life and limiting you from affecting them?
Sand, just tossing out possibilities. It seemed like he was pretty quick to blame the pot without taking into account a lot of bipolar's tend to be addicts and alcoholics, mostly because they're self medicating, consciously or not.
It could also be an easy out for the docs. "Oh he smokes pot... pfft well there ya go, what else is wrong with him lets write that down under pot symptoms". If they're not all that well off their quality of doctor is probably pretty low, leading to piss poor diagnoses and treatment.
My mother in law (father in laws 3rd wife not my wife's biological mother), is a young manic bi-polar who self medicates with booze. She's been in and out of professional help and wasn't diagnosed until her boozing got in the way. Which is where she met my father in law, in AA... Yea a real pair of winners, we avoid them like the plague. His brother in laws case sounds very similar only he's using pot. They normally don't reach out for help and family accepts them with their "quirks" especially if they have a "treatment plan" that seems to work... ie pot, booze whatever.
aesir - isn't that the million dollar question...Wish I had the answer to that one. Right now it looks like "move to Montana and shun society" is the only guarantee ha ha.
vig - it's just a little ironic because you went off on a tangent about how he's probably suffering from a mental disorder rather than accept pot could have permanent effects on someone's brain chemistry. Kind of jumping the 'easy out' as it were yourself.
actually a commonly unnoticed problem with pot is that since using it creates an artificial influx of dopamine (among other brain chemicals), which is a contributing factor to being "high," prolonged use can cause the brain to become lazy and rely on the drug for dopamine dispersal, so many chronic smokers become unhappy/depressed when not high.
This is a very common occurrence with the body; this is the same process that causes "chapstick addiction" (the body begins to rely on the chapstick to provide and seal moisture to the lips, and become increasingly chapped on their own without constant chapstick use). Likewise for pain medication addiction, etc.
In theory the brain would eventually begin to release dopamine at normal levels once it stops being reliant on the drug, but no one knows how long it would take (or how much smoking would cause it) because all brains respond differently.
This is what I mean when I say I dont like the idea of messing with my brain chemistry.
Indeed. Relying on your brain to be creative when high almost never works especially when its not for fun but serious work.
But then once it works it can output great things i.e. art history and its various drugs.
so many chronic smokers become unhappy/depressed when not high.
Unhappy/depressed... and prone to snap toddlers legs like twigs while singing show tunes? If it looks like a duck and smells like a pot head maybe its still a duck.
This is a very common occurrence with the body; this is the same process that causes "chapstick addiction" (the body begins to rely on the chapstick to provide and seal moisture to the lips, and become increasingly chapped on their own without constant chapstick use). Likewise for pain medication addiction, etc.
No. A person does not become addicted to chapstick because their body compensates to its overuse. So then people who live in higher climates are addicted to thinner air?
Addiction is way over used for way too many things.
Oh I'm addicted to my i-pod.
Oh I'm addicted to texting.
Oh I'm addicted to my chapstick...
Bullsh!t.
Those things are habitual behaviors that can easily be overcome or avoided in the first place. You do a huge disservice to anyone who actually suffers from an addiction by trivializing it that way.
In medical terminology, an addiction is a chronic neurobiologic disorder that has genetic, psychosocial, and environmental dimensions and is characterized by one of the following: the continued use of a substance despite its detrimental effects, impaired control over the use of a drug (compulsive behavior), and preoccupation with a drug's use for non-therapeutic purposes (i.e. craving the drug).[1] Addiction is often accompanied by the presence of deviant behaviors (for instance stealing money and forging prescriptions) that are used to obtain a drug.
Don't mistake a weak will and a person who is comfortable with their habits for an addiction. In the case of chapstick addiction it fails to fall into all three categories that would classify it as an addiction.
This is what I mean when I say I dont like the idea of messing with my brain chemistry.
Awesome, no one is forcing you to smoke it as its you're choice. But you want to apply you're personal choice to everyone else? If you choose not to drink we should suddenly ban liquor too? What else are you going to not like to do that the rest of should be forced to go without?
And for the record again... I would much rather see hemp reindustrialized. A persons right to get high comes in at a far last in priorities when it comes to this issue. Legalize it to smoke it or don't it doesn't matter, but if we ever needed to use (even the THC-less varieties) its now.
Ebagg, do you honestly believe there are "just a few" bad people out there? That's not an optimistic view of humanity, it's a blindingly innacurate one.
Regardless of whether or not you or people you know are the most responsible pot heads on the planet it doesn't change the fact that most people out there are guiltless, common sense lacking, selfish idiots. Spend a day working in retail or food service and you'll get a pretty good taste for the selfless responsible nature of most people...
That wasn't what I was saying at all, I was referring specifically to people making bad choices in respect to drugs. What do you blame? The bad people or the drugs? I blame the bad people. It's the same ridiculous argument with guns, entertainment, etc. If even 1% of the people who own a gun killed someone with their gun, killed someone because they played a game, or in this argument, killed someone while under the influence, the world would be a either a hell of a lot more regulated, or a hell of a lot more dangerous, or both.
I maintain that the vast majority of people can handle the personal responsibility of drugs and the small minority that cannot should not ruin it for the rest of us.
The reason I said chapstick addiction in quotes was because I acknowledge it's not a "true" serious addiction, but it is still a physical impairment caused by extended use of a specific product. "Weak will" doesn't cause the body to stop holding moisture in the lips, it literally becomes physically reliant on the chapstick. This is still a physical addiction, no matter how small or trivial.
My point with it was that this is a common occurrence, why is it so hard to believe? The brain can become reliant on pot for sending out those happiness chemicals, period. If you dont deem that "worth" of being labeled an addiction, that's fine, I dont really care but that doesn't stop it from happening.
Ebagg - that's just how it came across to me. I certainly dont blame drugs for stupid people existing, I just dont like the idea of exacerbating the issue by letting them make themselves even stupider with drugs that no one really needs. Hemp for industry, sure whatever, weed for smoking - just sounds like more fuel for failure.
Of course I dont get to dictate what people do or don't do, it's their decision and I wouldn't want a government that ruled us with an iron fist and absolute control; but I could hardly believe the vast majority of people could handle the personal responsibility of yet another legalized drug. We dont even do a good job with alcohol, opiate-based painkillers, or cigarettes.
Edit: and I do enjoy a good brew, though it's maddening how many problems most people seem to have when it comes to self-control and alcohol and we've had that for ages.
and i think you don't understand how destructive alchohol can be to a person who has been heavily drinking for years. so you get psychotic after 10 years of heavy pot-smoking.
after 10 years of heavy drinking, you die.
actually, an excessive intake of alcohol can kill you, even if you haven't been drinking for 10 years. a friend of mine binged on liquor, and he passed out. he had to be driven away in an ambulance to be pumped, otherwise he would have died.
alcohol destroys your body, and also causes a wide range of psychotic effects when you're not drinking. amongst these are psychosis, panic disorder, confusion, and a wide range of mental impairments.
for anyone to die from cannabis smoking, they'd have to inhale 512kg within 10 minutes.
you have a higher chance of dying from excessive intake of water.
Don't get me wrong, I never stated that alcohol wasn't destructive, and I can't see how my post demonstrates a lack of understanding of the dangers of heavy, sustained drinking.
My post was in response to acc's claim that 'Pot is almost completely harmless', I just thought I would point out that this is not always the case. Like any foreign substance, I don't think there's any way to predict how each persons body will react to long term use.
Your brother in law is probably bipolar or has some other mental illness more than likely not brought on by the pot. He probably self medicates because it balances him out the best he can. It's not an ideal solution, but he's actually picked the least harmful of the drugs. He probably would have met some kind of end a lot sooner had he picked something else.
I must confess I don't know too much about bipolar or other mental health issues, but it's something to look into, but unfortunately, it seems indeed
I'm addicted to caffeine, when I don't drink it I get really bad head aches and I crave it all day, stopped drinking soda, so now I've been addicted to hot chocolate, (chocolate has some caffeine in it).
Ebagg - that's just how it came across to me. I certainly dont blame drugs for stupid people existing, I just dont like the idea of exacerbating the issue by letting them make themselves even stupider with drugs that no one really needs. Hemp for industry, sure whatever, weed for smoking - just sounds like more fuel for failure.
Of course I dont get to dictate what people do or don't do, it's their decision and I wouldn't want a government that ruled us with an iron fist and absolute control; but I could hardly believe the vast majority of people could handle the personal responsibility of yet another legalized drug. We dont even do a good job with alcohol, opiate-based painkillers, or cigarettes.
Edit: and I do enjoy a good brew, though it's maddening how many problems most people seem to have when it comes to self-control and alcohol and we've had that for ages.
Giving a stupid person a car exacerbates the problem, or a firecracker, or any number of things. Again, the reason marijuana was made illegal in the first place is not because it was ending some spree of pothead crazies running amok, it is because of big industry and government interests. As I posted earlier, look at countries where it is legalized, they're not having pot-fueled crime epidemics.
The other day my grand father asked me to come over to fix his comupter. he couldnt' get it to turn on. as it turned out, he was trying to switch it on by hitting a button on a remote control, which usually worked. the remote control receiver on the computer was malfunctioning. this was actually the only way he knew how to turn on his computer (i know, but he's old, okay?)
instead of fixing the remote control, I showed him how to turn on his computer. he now understands how the system works and he can use the remote control if he wants, but he doesn't need it anymore.
our relationship to drugs is just like that. we are so emotionally uneducated as a culture that we often have no idea why we're unhappy or stressed out, let alone what to do about it-- but we know that if we take a drug, drink alcohol, what ever, we can feel better for a while. unfortunately, operating like that is so far REMOVED from the functionality of a system, that we can literally make no accurate statements about how the system works by simply referencing the drug.
until you look inward, and describe yourself in emotional terms, you will never, never, never, never, never, NEVER be able to say anything accurate about your psychology. you'll simply be looking in the wrong place.
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you dont get arrested if you get caught with a small amount, you just get a ticket. but thats only under a certain amount. if you get caught with enough that they think you are selling, you`re still screwed. even so though, no one wants a ticket for that on their file.
Err, perhaps you've smoked too much? Or not enough? :P
Tobacco is also grown, cut, hung, dried then smoked. Even 100% organic brands have tar. Have you even smoked weed before? Ever had to clean out a pipe or a bong? That black ass sticky, gooey shit? That's not just THC compound "resin". Those compounds are clear; the tar and carcinogens are what make it black and sticky.
While there aren't any documented cases of major longterm health effects from smoking weed, it's certainly not "good" for you. The major negative effects of cigarettes are likely due to the arsenic and other additives they put into them as well. But breathing in any smoke, regardless of whether it's pure or not, has negative consequences, minor or otherwise. It's SMOKE - by it's very nature a carcinogen. Come on now.
The only way to avoid the negative smoke effects of either weed or tobacco, is to use a vaporizer. It releases compound vapors without actually burning the base substance (no smoke, no carcinogens). But those things cost like $600. :poly124:
That tar build up is from the inhalation of smoke from burning matter. Pot is totally unfiltered and totally unprocessed raw plant fiber, it burns more purely and creates far more tar. This is not a myth or misinformation, this is science. Sure tomatoes have tar...if you burn them and inhale the smoke.
Arguing for the medical benefits is ridiculous because chemically synthesized THC is not only cheaper and more effective, but it cuts out all harmful side effects of smoking.
edit: doh, didn't notice the last page. Vassago covered it...
Tomacco on the other hand..that's freak'n dangerous
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I personally am on the fence about it.
There are many pro's to making it legal - hell, the benefit alone of being able to grow hemp is almost worth it.
One thing i'm curious about is the long term negatives that would arise from making marijuana legal. There is plenty of hypothetical 'what if' things that could happen.
i can already hear the big 'ol "told you so" by the naysayers when legal marijuana becomes the cause of increased use among teens, the cause of increased vehicle accidents, etc etc.
-anyways, just my rant because I do believe this is a tougher subject than allowing people to get high legally.
Although, in my experience seeing a friend of yours with bloodshot eyes and giggling is an unsettling experience. Not that alcohol is any better...
unless a 7/11 isn't within walking distance and your fridge is empty...
i used to smoke quite a significant amount, but am now the only one of my immediate associates who doesn't. it was simply a personal choice. i am lethargic and fairly apathetic to begin with, and the overall effects of smoking frequently were simply not helping. i would never blame it, it would just be unwise to ignore it as a contributing factor.
the majority of the people i know though seem to be pretty much unhindered by it, and if you're around people who smoke a lot it honestly gets to the point where you would never be able to tell if they're high or not. (that's not to say when they're not high...they act as if they are, but instead the other way around).
looking at this from a logical perspective, trying to approach it from an economical standpoint, it's easy to make arguments about the benefit of hemp crops etc...
it's also easy to defend the effects of marijuana, i.e. comparing it to alcohol in that there have been no deaths, or that the smoke is significantly less harmful than cigarettes...all that noise.
HOWEVER, when it comes down to it, i just think defending or condemning it one way or the other is completely irrelevant. i honestly wouldn't care if it killed you after smoking it 10 times. the fact is, smoking marijuana is a very personal choice, and so long as you are really only affecting yourself (limiting it to smoking in private locations etc), i really feel as if it should be the individuals prerogative. i don't know why it has to be such a scandal.
i mean i arguably think there should be no such thing as illegal substances, but i also have found myself often placing too much faith in humanity. i mean when i think about it, or ask the majority of the people i know, who of you avoids heroin BECAUSE it's illegal? i most certainly don't. i avoid it because it's almost guaranteed to serve as a detrimental force in your life. and if heroin were to become legal tomorrow, would the numbers just go off the charts? i don't think so, as i really don't see legality holding people who are going to do drugs back.
that being said, if the entire nation were to simply start doing heroin the day it became legal...i would still have very little to say in regret. that is a choice i believe an individual has the right to make, and i would just be very disappointed with the choices they made.
Few people would do heroin and those that would would have a good medical condition
and could get on with their life. There are plenty people who carried on with their normal life on heroin its only when you dont have the money that you need that you get really fucked up because you can only spend your day searching for things to steal.
First thought as well!
It would be illegal outside of "the governments" distribution I am sure.
Also wouldn't this cause more accidents behind the wheel.
until their drunk on the road...
The reason substances are illegal is because dipshits blaze up, drink up or shoot up, then drive a fucking car. Beat their fucking wives and kids. Steal. KILL PEOPLE. That shit affects ME. Doing something harmful to your body IS a personal choice, but don't be so naive as to think it doesn't affect anyone else.
But you cant say that everyone that smokes a joint is going to kill someone.
That's like saying everyone that has a drink is a wino.
it's Simple . Educate. Regulate.
Not at all - never said that. By all means, I say make it legal. Just regulate it like alcohol. I wouldn't have an issue with that.
firstly, really?
secondly, a fan of the super nanny state eh? All sorts of things can become dangerous to other people. The first thing that pops into my mind is driving cars within 1000 yards of another person.
not gonna happen, is it? As we are, then.
You didn't suggest that we prevent people from driving intoxicated. You said to make the intoxicants illegal in case they drive. There's a large difference there.
well, as long as both cases are handled by the cops, i'm sure we'll be fine
hey, wait ...
Are you serious?
As it stands, in order to become an alcoholic, you have to drink large amounts of alcohol over a long period of time. Chances are, you've never met the pot equivalent because:
a) Only a small amount of the population takes pot, and
b) Only a small amount of pot users take enough to qualify as being the equivalent of an alcoholic (whatever it's called for pot smokers).
Unfortunately I know someone - my brother in law - who has been taking large amounts of pot for many years, and he now has been diagnosed with marijuana-induced psychosis. As long as he continues to take it then there's no worries, but as soon as he stops it is genuinely frightening.
If you didn't know any better, you'd swear he has multiple personality disorder, so quickly can his mood change from normal to absolute, destructive rage. I'm not joking when I say it is downright scary how suddenly he transforms. When consumed by the rage I have no doubt that he cannot even comprehend the identity of people around him: Stranger, family member, doesn't matter.
The doctors believe that he could stop smoking now and he may have a chance to fully recover, but there's no guarantees. And this guy ain't quitting anyway. The saddest thing? He's only 24, been smoking heavily for 10 years. He'll be crippled by this for the rest of his life...
Now, you might say that this is a rare case, but how rare will it be when pot is freely available to all in unlimited quantities? Given the choice of angry people after you, would you prefer an angry drunk who has little control over their balance and coordination, or a perfectly coordinated, murderous psychosis sufferer?
Please be aware I'm not saying pot shouldn't be legalised, because I actually believe it should be. But please, stop saying pot is harmless. It's far from it, it just takes a bit longer for the problems to manifest.
Been around plenty of chronic smokers (had to live with one for a year which was absolutely awful) so I'm not one without personal experience on the matter.
I generally distrust anything that plays with my brain chemistry though...anything that is altering the flow, release, and distribution of important joyand motivation related brain chemicals is not something I take lightly.
No one is naive that there are dumbasses out there that make the wrong decisions under the influence, but no, the reason Marijuana is illegal is not because of dipshits who make the wrong decisions once they blaze up, it was due to sensationalist bullshit and big business decades ago that still permeates today; http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/
Playing the blame game about drugs is passing the buck instead of taking personal responsibility. If we were to make every drug illegal because it 'turns a few people into bad decision makers' then say goodbye to alcohol, tobacco, any drug period. And it is kinda funny to think that people who believe that are the same people who work in an industry that has been under fire for 'turning people into killers', its the same blame game, only decades and/or centuries older.
That's why the facts about Marijuana need to be taught in schools properly, people need the facts, not the ol 'weed funds terrorism', 'weed turns people into lazy idiots', mantra, but that if you decide to use it, you use it responsibly, recognize how it affects your body and make responsible decisions with it.
This site lists many nation's legality on weed, strange that the decriminalized ones are doing just fine...http://matadornights.com/guide-to-smoking-pot-around-the-world/
If the people are all sustaining these numerous amounts of pot businesses, it should tell you what the people want? If the people did not want them, they would would not purchase their product, and they would go out of business? Right?
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The things listed above all change the bodies composition and have nasty negative side effects when the person stops, withdrawal. When people stop smoking pot they don't go through withdrawal, they might miss the feeling of being high like someone misses not having a 24-7 organism but that's not withdrawal. If they smoke too much they might damage themselves (again not addiction) but you can do that with a bunch of other things that aren't considered harmful.
Self moderation is the key.
Your brother in law is probably bipolar or has some other mental illness more than likely not brought on by the pot. He probably self medicates because it balances him out the best he can. It's not an ideal solution, but he's actually picked the least harmful of the drugs. He probably would have met some kind of end a lot sooner had he picked something else.
He should get professional help for his issues and probably kick his pot habit. Just stopping smoking won't cure him of his rage. He's damaged goods for life. If he stops smoking then you'll see his mental illness in all of its full on ugliness.
Normal people who can moderate their behavior and are not mentally ill, don't have this problem. Certain people should not use certain things to mask serious issues. Just like short people shouldn't ride roller coasters and alcoholics shouldn't tend bar.
I would rather have the mentally ill get the help they need from professionals.
If that can't happen I would rather see them piss their life away watching TV, getting high and containing the rage the best they can. Rather than be out and about with their bi-polar, manic flag flying 24-7.
Now ask this, what percent of the money coming in is actually from legal trade or is it coming from continued illegal trade? There have been more than a few federal busts on shops housing metric tons of pot. Way more than you can move legally. They left the honest pot shops alone, which are struggling...
You can get more $ for the same amount of pot on the black market. So if you're used to selling on the black market why would you cut your profits? You're already used to selling at a risk, having a legal store front just gives you a bit of protection to further rake in the cash illegally as well as giving you a way to semi-launder the cash.
This covers it pretty well.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/19/politics/main5396064.shtml
The illegal side is only going to get worse as time goes on UNLESS the black markets across California's boarders suddenly dry up, making the legal trade the path of least resistance to the biggest reward.
It's going to make it really hard for California to lead by example. It needs to be a nation wide effort otherwise California will be a legal hub for illegal trade making it more of a mess then it needs to be.
I'm not against California legalizing it. I just think they shouldn't go it alone because it will cause trouble for them and their neighboring states. Possibly failing, polarizing people and pushing off rational discussion of the issue for decades until people calm down.
I'm also all for re-industrialization of hemp and care way more about that than someone's right to get high.
NO!!
yes! NO!!!!!
this was bound to come.
I totally understand what you mean, why not take the risk by expediting to other states?
The market is only black because the federal government will not decriminalize. If one state legalizes, more will follow... Then no more black market?
I tell you this...If California legalizes and you can buy at a gas station. I am going to road trip just to buy some pot legally! :P
Regardless of whether or not you or people you know are the most responsible pot heads on the planet it doesn't change the fact that most people out there are guiltless, common sense lacking, selfish idiots. Spend a day working in retail or food service and you'll get a pretty good taste for the selfless responsible nature of most people...
Vig - I didn't know you had a doctorate in psychological disorders and knew the guy's whole back history and what he has and hasn't tried? Maybe not be so presumptuous about the mental state of someone you've only heard about in a two paragraph story. Extreme Bi-Polar disease is a very quickly recognized illness with a great deal of therapeutic and medicinal support; not something that a doctor or family would just fail to think of.
Sand, just tossing out possibilities. It seemed like he was pretty quick to blame the pot without taking into account a lot of bipolar's tend to be addicts and alcoholics, mostly because they're self medicating, consciously or not.
It could also be an easy out for the docs. "Oh he smokes pot... pfft well there ya go, what else is wrong with him lets write that down under pot symptoms". If they're not all that well off their quality of doctor is probably pretty low, leading to piss poor diagnoses and treatment.
My mother in law (father in laws 3rd wife not my wife's biological mother), is a young manic bi-polar who self medicates with booze. She's been in and out of professional help and wasn't diagnosed until her boozing got in the way. Which is where she met my father in law, in AA... Yea a real pair of winners, we avoid them like the plague. His brother in laws case sounds very similar only he's using pot. They normally don't reach out for help and family accepts them with their "quirks" especially if they have a "treatment plan" that seems to work... ie pot, booze whatever.
vig - it's just a little ironic because you went off on a tangent about how he's probably suffering from a mental disorder rather than accept pot could have permanent effects on someone's brain chemistry. Kind of jumping the 'easy out' as it were yourself.
Clearly he has the incurable, Reefer Madness... oh wait... its when he stops.
This is a very common occurrence with the body; this is the same process that causes "chapstick addiction" (the body begins to rely on the chapstick to provide and seal moisture to the lips, and become increasingly chapped on their own without constant chapstick use). Likewise for pain medication addiction, etc.
In theory the brain would eventually begin to release dopamine at normal levels once it stops being reliant on the drug, but no one knows how long it would take (or how much smoking would cause it) because all brains respond differently.
This is what I mean when I say I dont like the idea of messing with my brain chemistry.
But then once it works it can output great things i.e. art history and its various drugs.
No. A person does not become addicted to chapstick because their body compensates to its overuse. So then people who live in higher climates are addicted to thinner air?
Addiction is way over used for way too many things.
Oh I'm addicted to my i-pod.
Oh I'm addicted to texting.
Oh I'm addicted to my chapstick...
Bullsh!t.
Those things are habitual behaviors that can easily be overcome or avoided in the first place. You do a huge disservice to anyone who actually suffers from an addiction by trivializing it that way. Don't mistake a weak will and a person who is comfortable with their habits for an addiction. In the case of chapstick addiction it fails to fall into all three categories that would classify it as an addiction.
Awesome, no one is forcing you to smoke it as its you're choice. But you want to apply you're personal choice to everyone else? If you choose not to drink we should suddenly ban liquor too? What else are you going to not like to do that the rest of should be forced to go without?
And for the record again... I would much rather see hemp reindustrialized. A persons right to get high comes in at a far last in priorities when it comes to this issue. Legalize it to smoke it or don't it doesn't matter, but if we ever needed to use (even the THC-less varieties) its now.
That wasn't what I was saying at all, I was referring specifically to people making bad choices in respect to drugs. What do you blame? The bad people or the drugs? I blame the bad people. It's the same ridiculous argument with guns, entertainment, etc. If even 1% of the people who own a gun killed someone with their gun, killed someone because they played a game, or in this argument, killed someone while under the influence, the world would be a either a hell of a lot more regulated, or a hell of a lot more dangerous, or both.
I maintain that the vast majority of people can handle the personal responsibility of drugs and the small minority that cannot should not ruin it for the rest of us.
My point with it was that this is a common occurrence, why is it so hard to believe? The brain can become reliant on pot for sending out those happiness chemicals, period. If you dont deem that "worth" of being labeled an addiction, that's fine, I dont really care but that doesn't stop it from happening.
Ebagg - that's just how it came across to me. I certainly dont blame drugs for stupid people existing, I just dont like the idea of exacerbating the issue by letting them make themselves even stupider with drugs that no one really needs. Hemp for industry, sure whatever, weed for smoking - just sounds like more fuel for failure.
Of course I dont get to dictate what people do or don't do, it's their decision and I wouldn't want a government that ruled us with an iron fist and absolute control; but I could hardly believe the vast majority of people could handle the personal responsibility of yet another legalized drug. We dont even do a good job with alcohol, opiate-based painkillers, or cigarettes.
Edit: and I do enjoy a good brew, though it's maddening how many problems most people seem to have when it comes to self-control and alcohol and we've had that for ages.
Don't get me wrong, I never stated that alcohol wasn't destructive, and I can't see how my post demonstrates a lack of understanding of the dangers of heavy, sustained drinking.
My post was in response to acc's claim that 'Pot is almost completely harmless', I just thought I would point out that this is not always the case. Like any foreign substance, I don't think there's any way to predict how each persons body will react to long term use.
I must confess I don't know too much about bipolar or other mental health issues, but it's something to look into, but unfortunately, it seems indeed
Giving a stupid person a car exacerbates the problem, or a firecracker, or any number of things. Again, the reason marijuana was made illegal in the first place is not because it was ending some spree of pothead crazies running amok, it is because of big industry and government interests. As I posted earlier, look at countries where it is legalized, they're not having pot-fueled crime epidemics.
instead of fixing the remote control, I showed him how to turn on his computer. he now understands how the system works and he can use the remote control if he wants, but he doesn't need it anymore.
our relationship to drugs is just like that. we are so emotionally uneducated as a culture that we often have no idea why we're unhappy or stressed out, let alone what to do about it-- but we know that if we take a drug, drink alcohol, what ever, we can feel better for a while. unfortunately, operating like that is so far REMOVED from the functionality of a system, that we can literally make no accurate statements about how the system works by simply referencing the drug.
until you look inward, and describe yourself in emotional terms, you will never, never, never, never, never, NEVER be able to say anything accurate about your psychology. you'll simply be looking in the wrong place.