Really if anything should be taken from all of this, it is that a small baby can only break down so much mercury at one time. According to the documentary there, it seems the kids that have been affected the most were the ones that had all of their shots (6 was it?) all at one time.
And then Ninja mentioned going for the single dose vial wherever you can. The problem is that isn't always offered either.
Anywho carry on/flame on. Just thought the info would be interesting for people here with newborns around here. Separate your shots out sparingly if you must get them. And if you think it is all non-sense, load up on the big pharma goodies.
Not because I fear government conspiracies and wear a tin-foil top hat (for the classiest of paranoid hobos that pee in jars), but because I'm not a huge pussy.
Seriously, flu shots are for babies and the elderly. If you're, lets say, a young healthy cheerleader, maybe you should let the sick and fragile get their shots first.
I'm not sure if I believe it or not, but it's certainly a possible illness. People with schizophrenia can see, hear, smell, taste and touch things that are not real, they just can't tell the difference. A demon standing next to me would appear as real as I am - their brain doesn't know it's not there.
Our brain is probably the most complex organism on the planet. It's stupid and foolish to think that something like this girl's disorder can't be real. Not saying that it IS real, but it's sure as hell possible. A few mis-wired nerves and I'm sure all kinds of shit can go wrong up there.
Oh moose, you know that the errata for the New Testament has taken up a lot of time. Then there's been the plagues and hurricanes and high school football games and what-have-you ... I've just been so busy!
If the homeopathic stuff didn't have some science to it then the placebo would never be administered as part of testing.
That doesn't even make sense. The placebo is used in testing because it does nothing, so you can compare results with the real medicine. The funny thing with a placebo is that sometimes people report it as working, which tells us interesting things about the interaction between mind and body.
Thats what happens with homeopathy too.. its just water, so it's harmless. If you heal using homeopathy, it's just your body healing itself, and somebody is getting a lot of money for selling you water.
But any doctor telling you that homeopathy is actually a cure is a pure quack. I would never trust such a doctor and so should you Junkie. But I gotta say selling water to ignorant people is an easy way to make money .
I bought homeopathic ear-ache medicine once when I thought homeopathy=natural. It didn't work so I googled it's ingredients, among other things it contained oil and rattlesnake venom... yup, snake oil.
But any doctor telling you that homeopathy is actually a cure is a pure quack. I would never trust such a doctor and so should you Junkie. But I gotta say selling water to ignorant people is an easy way to make money .
What's more likely is that they got scammed into paying in full for a unlicensed medical 'degree' and now they are trying to double-scam their money back.
I'm not really into the homeopathy stuff either. I brought up the placebo because when testing with it, some people actually think they are getting better when really it is all in their head. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought homeopathy was about positive attitudes leading to better health or something? That was my only reason for bringing placebo into the equation.
Anyway that really has nothing to do with anything. This is becoming more of a pissing match now...lol
I just think it is silly to discredit the Tenpenny doctor based on her interest in homeopathy. There are quite a few good articles there relating to flu vaccines, gardasil, etc... It's not like that is the only doctor out there with differing opinions.
Sorry Junkie, but as far as I'm concerned unless any findings are peer reviewed, they mean NOTHING in the scientific community.
It's how Official Scientific Journals are written. It has to be something attacked and dissected from all angles, with all supporting angles and theories.
Homeopathy has never been peer reviewed, because there are WAAAY too many flaws in how it's functioned to be considered scientific. It's called 'Pseudo-Science', and is thrown into the same category as Phrenology, Astrology, and Superstition.
She won't win a cent in any court battle. There's no way she can prove it was the flu shot that triggered that condition. There's absolutely no evidence there's any correlation between the two.
I thought homeopathy was about positive attitudes leading to better health or something? That was my only reason for bringing placebo into the equation.
At its core I'm pretty sure that is what its all about. The problem is "think positive" doesn't sell as well as "think positive and take these moss pills we cultivated from leaf clippings".
You can argue all you want pro or con for vaccines, but at the end of the day we're all just relying on information that someone else tells us. the majority of us and everyone else out there aren't biochemists. We don't really know what goes on behind closed doors (clinical trials gone wrong, 'corrupt mad scientists' trying to win a nobel peace prize (obama has taken away this one now...teehee), or corporate greed). No one creadible is going to talk about what we dont want to hear.... (usually...)
We don't know. Who are we going to trust? Big Wigs. (pfffft!)
Lets trust the scare tactics for the Gradrasil vaccine (HPV) that say 3/4 kids will get this disease, and get cervical canser. Forget that its warts that they're talking about, lets call it HPV becasue no one knows thats what it really is called. And lets use statistics that aren't specific, and include ALL KINDS of warts, not just the strains that casue cervical canser.
So instead of of saying, "here's a condom, don't get genital warts" lets say, "be very scared and buy my life saving vaccine, no questions asked" (while they're raking in $$$$).
Or what about the polio vaccine? that has one of the biggest conspiracys out there one it: 'clinical' tests created HIV the most prominent, silent killer today? http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/state2000-04.html
Or what about the flu shot patents? so big corporate investers can make they're millions, while were all in there mercy to buy this 'life saving cure'. ... at least with polio there logic was 'why patent the sun when everyone needs it'.
So what do we do? risk getting sick, or being a pawn in a game of consumer fruad?
(Maybe we should just accept that humans shouldn't have to power to controll diseases, we're just not ready for it in general.)
My appologies for my rant. (can you tell I'm a 'conspiracy theoryist'? - haha)
I think I'll just take a deep breath, and calm myself down with a nice cold glass of FDA aprroved hormone milk.
FoxDie is an engineered retrovirus developed by the Pentagon. It's programmed to kill specific people by identifying the person's DNA and their nanomachines. Afterwards, it induces a cardiac arrest, killing the target.
What happened to her might just be an allergic reaction, the shot just fried some nerves. People can develop allergies to foods they ate all their life and then one day they are allergic. As far as not giving vaccines to your new born, there is more scientific proof that your child will die if they don't take them because their immune system can't fight off all the viruses and bacteria that exist.
You can get messed up more by going outside than by taking a vaccine. Oh crap I should of not said that, now people won't go outside. Hmmm, I hope so then driving to work would be safer.
I wouldn't buy into the fact that it was caused by the flu shot so easily.
Say Obama put his shoes on on Tuesday, and took a crap on Friday. Did he take a crap on Friday because he put his shoes on on Tuesday?
Very bad example. Taking a crap is a natural occurrence. Getting dystonia (or whatever) is not. Also, shots have been known to cause some weird side effects (Autism, AEA, et cetera)
I don't trust the shots, but only because I know whats in them.
At its core I'm pretty sure that is what its all about. The problem is "think positive" doesn't sell as well as "think positive and take these moss pills we cultivated from leaf clippings".
Vig, no offense man, but that's not what homeopathy's about at all. It's pure, unmitigated bullshit snake oil based on the idea that the more you dilute an "active" ingredient the better it gets. It's based on principles almost as primitive as the idea of the four elements from ancient Greek times. A lot of people confuse it with "natural" remedies, which have, at the least, the virtue of some of them being backed up by real, empirical science.
On a different note, I missed out on a sure thing once for argueing with a girl about this kind of crap. She held her hand over mine and said " Feel that warmth? It's Healing Energy". I was a few pints in, and went off on a huge rant about how the body heat is at about 37 degrees etc. etc. I went home alone that night.
Yea cheese, I'm not up on current homeopathy, it sounds like a weak and crack potted form of Naturopathy?
I had a ND for a while he was great. He knew right where the line was and would say:
"we can try and treat that naturally but you're better off seeing your MD for that. Here are the pros and the cons from my pers of the treatments he/she will probably prescribe" (Sinus infection).
and other things he would say:
"We've had great well documented success on this we can probably get a handle on it without liquefying your liver with expensive meds" (cholesterol)
I would have thought he would have gone the other way but he was right both times. I later found a MD who strongly believes in ND and doesn't rush to the prescription pad ever time I sneeze.
If that were true, why do countries with government-funded health care systems like Canada and the UK bother vaccinating people?
Cause its part of their government funded system, it covers it so people get them, and many prob don't. They still have to buy the vaccine from a Pharma company so does not matter to them who pays, the govt or your insurance carrier they are making their money. The part that kills me is the way the flu is portrayed on the news, and all of the hysteria that goes with that, h1n1 got the same treatment the "Bird Flu" did a few years back. I understand why vaccinate for some epidemic and deadly diseases like smallpox, polio, and all the other stuff you get vaccinated for as a child, but flu, it just seems like the public will buy into anything if a doctor on tv says its a good idea, or if that doctor thinks its a good idea after having attending a lecture hosted by a pharma company, prob the same reason why so many parents put their kids on phycoactives becasue a teacher or doctor says they are hyper, or something along those lines. I think flu shot should be available but i dont think it should be all over the news, as the new must have thing of the season.
Get your flu shots, kiddies. If you're in one of the high-risk groups especially. Drug companies certainly are in the practice of some deeply unethical things, but it's just assinine to think that means everything they do is without merit. There's a reason the vast majority of us survived childhood, and a big part of it is vaccines.
I got the (seasonal) flu shot a while ago and I'm fine. I did it because it only cost me $5 and I got a piece of candy afterward.
This is sorta related and came up in a conversation with a friend a few days ago, but I had gotten a chicken pox vaccine as a child and he didn't even know that existed. Chicken pox itself isn't a big deal, but it stays permanently in your system and can come back as shingles as an adult, which is real shitty I've heard. Vaccines rock!
I can't stand this anti-vaccination thing. I've got a three year old, and he's damn well getting his shots. My grandma spent time as a nurse hot-packing polio patience and working iron lungs. Fuck that. My kid is not getting polio if I can prevent it.
And if you want to hear an amazingly terrifying stat about autism, chew on this...
Of all the kids that have been diagnosed with autism, they've found a common link amonst all of them. I mean, not the one in a million Jenny McCarthy claimed shot that caused-case. I mean a verified 100% of cases. All with one common denominator. It seems that every autistic kid who's ever been diagnosed, I mean 100% of them... All breathed air shortly before the onset of their symptoms. Every one of them. No exceptions.
Don't let your kids breath air, and they won't have any chance of autism.
Seriously, anecdotal evidence means jack shit. So does unscientific analysis. Show me some research dammit. An remember that if you thing your wives' tale science of vaccination is so simple, your kid might be slapped upside the head with a good case of polio. Don't be that jackass parent.
Get your flu shots, kiddies. If you're in one of the high-risk groups especially. Drug companies certainly are in the practice of some deeply unethical things, but it's just assinine to think that means everything they do is without merit. There's a reason the vast majority of us survived childhood, and a big part of it is vaccines.
I'll pass. As it was said in a thread before, we've already been given the best defense... an immune system. Take care of it, and you'll be fine. I think we have desensitized kids these days by loading them up with crap. It's not primarily the doctors fault, I think it's the parents. We protect them from germs and then freak out when they get the slightest sickness. Ironically, we are enabling more sickness to come. Orange Juice ftw.
I used to laugh at people freaking out about these new flu strains until a friend of mine died from the flu (it was never determined if it was regular or h1n1) and it made me think. Would you rather people overreact and rush to produce vaccines, etc... and it turns out to not be that bad or be caught with our pants down when something the level of the 1918 pandemic strikes?
I'll pass. As it was said in a thread before, we've already been given the best defense... an immune system. Take care of it, and you'll be fine. I think we have desensitized kids these days by loading them up with crap. It's not primarily the doctors fault, I think it's the parents. We protect them from germs and then freak out when they get the slightest sickness. Ironically, we are enabling more sickness to come. Orange Juice ftw.
You know what's scary? Fire. That shit will totally burn you, man. Seriously, I'll pass. I'm also not too sure about this whole "wheel" thing people are talking about. We've already been given the best means of transportation... legs. Take care of them and you'll be fine. Walking ftw.
I've got a three year old, and he's damn well getting his shots. My grandma spent time as a nurse hot-packing polio patience and working iron lungs. Fuck that. My kid is not getting polio if I can prevent it.
Iatrogenic (vaccine-induced) polio Oh oops the Oral vaccine we've used for the last 50 years could actually revert back to wild form... sorry we gave you polio.
SV40 infected tissue used in the process that vaccinated 98 million humans. SV40 may or may not cause cancer in humans, it certainly loves to hang out in cancerous tissue and it causes cancer in other mammals.
For just about every vaccine, there are stories like that. Well documented medical mistakes. But they keep catching them and making improvements. Sooner or later they might get it right.
I had my kid vaccinated for a lot of things, the ones we passed on it made sense. Waiting was even recommended on quite a few of them. All of them we passed on could be done at a later date and safer vaccines where in the works. Rushing to get it all done now just didn't make sense.
American children who are not vaccinated remain healthy for now because they are essentially freeloading on the herd immunity all around them. Their immediate environment is virus-free because everyone else is vaccinated and such diseases cannot spread.
And then goes on to site some stats:
As relayed in the Aug. 3 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, an American girl visiting Romania who wasn't inoculated against measles brought the disease home to Indiana and spread it to 36 others at a religious gathering, nearly all of whom were also not inoculated. The parents had chosen not to inoculate their children for religious reasons and a perceived fear of the dangers of vaccines.
Fortunately, although several patients were hospitalized, no one died.
Not so elsewhere in the world, where measles infects 30 million people each year, mostly children, and kills about 500,000 and sometimes as much as 10 percent of the infected in poorer regions, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).
and...
You want a cause-and-effect association? Great Britain thought pertussis disappeared and cut back on immunization in 1974. By 1978 there was an epidemic of more than 100,000 cases and 36 deaths. Same goes for Sweden and Japan. Diphtheria immunization fell with the break up of the Soviet Union. The number of cases rose from 839 in 1989 to nearly 50,000 in 1994, including 1,700 deaths, according to the WHO. On the flip side, we have success stories. Since the introduction of the Hib (Haemophilus influenzae type b) vaccine in 1990, Hib rates have fallen 99 percent in the United States.
The "oh you're a crazy soccer mom" rhetoric is vaguely familiar of the "cigarettes don't cause cancer" campaigns the same idiots bought into for decades and now love to sue the tobacco companies over. Part of me thinks people want to remain ignorant and fearful because there could be a big reward and its comforting to hear "get your pokes, it will be ok".
If you don't question it you miss the chance they might say "you know what you really don't need this." or "Lets talk about the risks".
Same article:
Better nutrition indeed leads to a stronger immune system; and only about 1 percent of children with measles in well-nourished countries will die, as opposed to 10 percent in sub-Sahara Africa. But even the healthiest of people can contract a viral disease.
I would like to add if the disease is contracted in the un-inoculated it will more than likely not go unaided by modern medicine unless they live in a mud/dung hut where it's 2 weeks travel to the nearest clinic which may or may not be open.
1% huh... scary.
Chickenpox:
Same article:
I'll accept the argument that the chickenpox vaccine isn't that necessary, because only rarely does this disease kill and because the vaccine wears off by adulthood.
Wait, don't get a vaccine they try to push on everyone unless they ask about it? The vaccine came out in 1980 till now is not enough time to determine if the vaccine acts like chickenpox and causes shingles in a percent of the public who contract it. Shingles is way worse than chickenpox could ever be. And they're not even testing the vaccine to see if can cause shingles, if you get the vaccine you are the test cases, woo!
If the vaccine does like its diseased brother and does produce shingles, then I would rather ride out the risk of getting chickenpox normally, and then ride out the risk of getting shingles, instead of enrolling her in the shingles vaccine trials.
Vaccinations in general:
Should vaccination rates fall below 80-90 percent, depending on the disease, outbreaks are inevitablenot just among the unvaccinated but also among adults whose immunity has weakened over the years.
If you're body doesn't continue to encounter the viruses it stops building up immunity to whatever it is and you become susceptible to it again. People might be on record as free and clear but they technically aren't. So don't forget your adult booster shots on the big ones too. Your little one might bring something home that doesn't kick his ass but yours...
(wait did vig just say to get adult vaccinations!? Yes after you read up on them, but don't assume your safety is based on some ancient vac records. And get your jabs before you travel.)
I'll say it again, I'm not 100% against all vaccines, just a few of them and those I'd rather wait on because there isn't a burning need. For some of them they're safe or at least unproven to be unhealthy and the rewards outweigh the risks. Or at least no one is really doing any "credible" studies because the risks of the disease are still too high.
Measles Mumps and Rubella:
These are hardly killers in the virus world.
MMR should be spaced out but some places still gang them all together most people don't know, don't care and don't ask. Despite the autism hysteria their effectiveness has been known to be diminished if they are ganged up. In today's "phew we got the shot we're all good" society it wouldn't surprise me if more people are in need of adult booster shots.
Measles, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles
"There is no cure for measles. Most patients with uncomplicated measles will recover with rest and supportive treatment."
1% chance of killing, yea it can mess you up for a while but low chance of death unless you're in a category at higher risk, then maybe you should.
Mumps, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumps
"Death is very unusual. The disease is self-limiting, and general outcome is good, even if other organs are involved."
Unpleasant but not deadly.
Rubella, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella "Rubella infection of children and adults is usually mild, self-limiting and often asymptomatic."
"The immunisation program has been quite successful. Cuba declared the disease eliminated in the 1990s, and in 2004 the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention announced that both the congenital and acquired forms of rubella had been eliminated from the United States.[15][16]"
Nope not a big killer and its been eliminated form the US. Planning on traveling? Maybe get your jabs as per usual.
The US has a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. In the last 10 years this program has paid out over $1 billion in payments to vaccine damaged children of which a 14% share has been paid out for MMR or its components. The drug companies have to contribute to the program and up to August 1997 they had to pay an excise tax on each dose using a risk-based formula. The DTP and MMR were taxed at $4.56 and $4.44, polio vaccines at $0.29 and DT (diphtheria/tetanus) vaccines at $0.06. This must surely give an indication of which vaccines carry the highest risk of a serious adverse reaction. The US administration will not pay out compensation because of unfounded scare stories only hard science.
So why have a "sorry we broken you" program if vaccines don't break people? But don't worry if you screw your kid up there's a big pile of money in it for ya.
Smallpox:
Lets talk about smallpox. The campaign has been so successful and the risks are so well known that its no longer routinely given.
Will we get to this point in the future with other vaccines? More than likely. Was the risk of the vaccine down played until it was eradicated? Sure was.
Is it nearly impossible to get the smallpox vaccine now? Sure is.
Is that because its so safe everyone would want it? umm no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox_vaccine#Post-eradication_vaccination
The vaccine can cause complications for those around those who are vaccinated. People who get the vaccine will shed virus particles through vesicles on their skin and possibly through their respiratory tract. Infections in close and not-so-close contacts can ensue. The current plan to vaccinate first responders has the potential to cause infection in the most vulnerable section of the population, the hospitalized ill. Family contacts are also susceptible, although they are less vulnerable because their immune systems are presumably intact.
Secondary infection can cause skin disease, pulmonary disease and rarely, neurologic disease.
As of June 21, 2003, a scientific advisory panel had issued a recommendation against further vaccination of first responders because a significant number of those vaccinated suffered heart problems, notably pericarditis and myocarditis.
At some point the risks of the vaccine outweigh the risk of the disease. Is vaccination a good and necessary thing? In some cases yes. Should we actively question what is put in our bodies for relevance? Probably a good idea.
At some point the risks of the vaccine outweigh the risk of the disease. Is vaccination a good and necessary thing? In some cases yes. Should we actively question what is put in our bodies for relevance? Probably a good idea.
I agree with you wholeheartedly here VIG. Some vaccinations are not worth the risk. But in the cases of certain vaccinations, where you have maybe a 1% chance of unpleasant side effects, and the disease has the possible side effect of death, I'd take the vaccination.
I'm really not trying to start an argument with you. Your analysis is valid, and your approach to vaccination is perfectly sound, and the same thing approach that I use for my child. But for some people to not vaccinate their children at all because of some BS reasons is totally ludicrous. They are putting their children in jeapordy. Because of something Jenny McCarthy says.
I'd encourage people to do their homework, talk to their doctors, and verify which vaccines really are a good idea, and which ones might be slightly risky options. But to just throw an idiot blanket over the whole thing and not vaccinate their children against anything just pisses me off.
This thread is scaremongering, i have asthma (very mild) So where does this thread leave me? Should i stay or should i go? Take the vaccine and become like the cheerleader or just deal with it? I'm cynical about a lot of things, but my cynicism has grown out of this debate.
Some vaccines are important, if its for something serious but for this H1N1 bs and just in general, flu shots. Its pathetic, its only a flu.
I don't know if Flu shots really do hurt you or if they don't, but either way, I've never got one and I never will. It just weakens your immune system, I rarely every get sick. And If I do I recover in a day or two, I think flu shots are more of a money maker than anything.
Useless trash, is what they are.
As a response to the person above me, I dunno about asthma, but doctors say to me "YOU MUST GET A FLU SHOT" and I never do, and I tell them no. And I'm perfectly fine, and I've never seen proof of a flu shot actually working so I'm gonna call BS on the flu shot.
I used to get sick more when I was an IT guy because I had to travel around the office alot and touch other people's filthy keyboards and mice. Now I sit at my desk all day (and get fat) but I haven't been sick in a while.
Would this story have even made the news if the girl wasn't a hot cheerleader. Everybody's like, "awww, what a waste." What a waste of hottness. Goddamn it...
Replies
BAHAHAHAHA
Malekyth,
Anywho, no one is arguing things that have been nearly eradicated like polio. That Tenpenny site even says she isn't against all vaccines.
I'll post this doc again and when anyone has the time to watch, I'd like to hear a rebuttle to it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6531447125053615129#
Really if anything should be taken from all of this, it is that a small baby can only break down so much mercury at one time. According to the documentary there, it seems the kids that have been affected the most were the ones that had all of their shots (6 was it?) all at one time.
And then Ninja mentioned going for the single dose vial wherever you can. The problem is that isn't always offered either.
Anywho carry on/flame on. Just thought the info would be interesting for people here with newborns around here. Separate your shots out sparingly if you must get them. And if you think it is all non-sense, load up on the big pharma goodies.
I'm not taking a flu shot.
worth mentioning -- lol at the news caster for claiming that she lost her "only chance at happiness"
Not because I fear government conspiracies and wear a tin-foil top hat (for the classiest of paranoid hobos that pee in jars), but because I'm not a huge pussy.
Seriously, flu shots are for babies and the elderly. If you're, lets say, a young healthy cheerleader, maybe you should let the sick and fragile get their shots first.
this is like the sadest trap ever! quick, someone grab the net and get him!
Our brain is probably the most complex organism on the planet. It's stupid and foolish to think that something like this girl's disorder can't be real. Not saying that it IS real, but it's sure as hell possible. A few mis-wired nerves and I'm sure all kinds of shit can go wrong up there.
Kasad - what the hell is foxdie?
That doesn't even make sense. The placebo is used in testing because it does nothing, so you can compare results with the real medicine. The funny thing with a placebo is that sometimes people report it as working, which tells us interesting things about the interaction between mind and body.
Thats what happens with homeopathy too.. its just water, so it's harmless. If you heal using homeopathy, it's just your body healing itself, and somebody is getting a lot of money for selling you water.
But any doctor telling you that homeopathy is actually a cure is a pure quack. I would never trust such a doctor and so should you Junkie. But I gotta say selling water to ignorant people is an easy way to make money
You're better off taking skittles. They're more likely to cure your ailments, and they taste good.
What's more likely is that they got scammed into paying in full for a unlicensed medical 'degree' and now they are trying to double-scam their money back.
Anyway that really has nothing to do with anything. This is becoming more of a pissing match now...lol
I just think it is silly to discredit the Tenpenny doctor based on her interest in homeopathy. There are quite a few good articles there relating to flu vaccines, gardasil, etc... It's not like that is the only doctor out there with differing opinions.
Here is columbia university with their own independent study on mercury link to autism...
http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20040609/mercury-linked-to-autism-like-damage-in-mice?src=rss_foxnews
Battle pretty much wages on...
It's how Official Scientific Journals are written. It has to be something attacked and dissected from all angles, with all supporting angles and theories.
Homeopathy has never been peer reviewed, because there are WAAAY too many flaws in how it's functioned to be considered scientific. It's called 'Pseudo-Science', and is thrown into the same category as Phrenology, Astrology, and Superstition.
Any to anyone who thinks she's BSing;
Quick Wikipedia search will show:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystonia
She won't win a cent in any court battle. There's no way she can prove it was the flu shot that triggered that condition. There's absolutely no evidence there's any correlation between the two.
You can argue all you want pro or con for vaccines, but at the end of the day we're all just relying on information that someone else tells us. the majority of us and everyone else out there aren't biochemists. We don't really know what goes on behind closed doors (clinical trials gone wrong, 'corrupt mad scientists' trying to win a nobel peace prize (obama has taken away this one now...teehee), or corporate greed). No one creadible is going to talk about what we dont want to hear.... (usually...)
We don't know. Who are we going to trust? Big Wigs. (pfffft!)
Lets trust the scare tactics for the Gradrasil vaccine (HPV) that say 3/4 kids will get this disease, and get cervical canser. Forget that its warts that they're talking about, lets call it HPV becasue no one knows thats what it really is called. And lets use statistics that aren't specific, and include ALL KINDS of warts, not just the strains that casue cervical canser.
So instead of of saying, "here's a condom, don't get genital warts" lets say, "be very scared and buy my life saving vaccine, no questions asked" (while they're raking in $$$$).
Or what about the polio vaccine? that has one of the biggest conspiracys out there one it: 'clinical' tests created HIV the most prominent, silent killer today?
http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/state2000-04.html
Or what about the flu shot patents? so big corporate investers can make they're millions, while were all in there mercy to buy this 'life saving cure'. ... at least with polio there logic was 'why patent the sun when everyone needs it'.
So what do we do? risk getting sick, or being a pawn in a game of consumer fruad?
(Maybe we should just accept that humans shouldn't have to power to controll diseases, we're just not ready for it in general.)
My appologies for my rant. (can you tell I'm a 'conspiracy theoryist'? - haha)
I think I'll just take a deep breath, and calm myself down with a nice cold glass of FDA aprroved hormone milk.
From the Metal Gear wiki:
http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/FoxDie
You can get messed up more by going outside than by taking a vaccine. Oh crap I should of not said that, now people won't go outside. Hmmm, I hope so then driving to work would be safer.
What happened to her sucks.
I await poop's response...
Very bad example. Taking a crap is a natural occurrence. Getting dystonia (or whatever) is not. Also, shots have been known to cause some weird side effects (Autism, AEA, et cetera)
I don't trust the shots, but only because I know whats in them.
Vig, no offense man, but that's not what homeopathy's about at all. It's pure, unmitigated bullshit snake oil based on the idea that the more you dilute an "active" ingredient the better it gets. It's based on principles almost as primitive as the idea of the four elements from ancient Greek times. A lot of people confuse it with "natural" remedies, which have, at the least, the virtue of some of them being backed up by real, empirical science.
On a different note, I missed out on a sure thing once for argueing with a girl about this kind of crap. She held her hand over mine and said " Feel that warmth? It's Healing Energy". I was a few pints in, and went off on a huge rant about how the body heat is at about 37 degrees etc. etc. I went home alone that night.
I had a ND for a while he was great. He knew right where the line was and would say:
"we can try and treat that naturally but you're better off seeing your MD for that. Here are the pros and the cons from my pers of the treatments he/she will probably prescribe" (Sinus infection).
and other things he would say:
"We've had great well documented success on this we can probably get a handle on it without liquefying your liver with expensive meds" (cholesterol)
I would have thought he would have gone the other way but he was right both times. I later found a MD who strongly believes in ND and doesn't rush to the prescription pad ever time I sneeze.
Cause its part of their government funded system, it covers it so people get them, and many prob don't. They still have to buy the vaccine from a Pharma company so does not matter to them who pays, the govt or your insurance carrier they are making their money. The part that kills me is the way the flu is portrayed on the news, and all of the hysteria that goes with that, h1n1 got the same treatment the "Bird Flu" did a few years back. I understand why vaccinate for some epidemic and deadly diseases like smallpox, polio, and all the other stuff you get vaccinated for as a child, but flu, it just seems like the public will buy into anything if a doctor on tv says its a good idea, or if that doctor thinks its a good idea after having attending a lecture hosted by a pharma company, prob the same reason why so many parents put their kids on phycoactives becasue a teacher or doctor says they are hyper, or something along those lines. I think flu shot should be available but i dont think it should be all over the news, as the new must have thing of the season.
[ame]
Get your flu shots, kiddies. If you're in one of the high-risk groups especially. Drug companies certainly are in the practice of some deeply unethical things, but it's just assinine to think that means everything they do is without merit. There's a reason the vast majority of us survived childhood, and a big part of it is vaccines.
This is sorta related and came up in a conversation with a friend a few days ago, but I had gotten a chicken pox vaccine as a child and he didn't even know that existed. Chicken pox itself isn't a big deal, but it stays permanently in your system and can come back as shingles as an adult, which is real shitty I've heard. Vaccines rock!
And if you want to hear an amazingly terrifying stat about autism, chew on this...
Of all the kids that have been diagnosed with autism, they've found a common link amonst all of them. I mean, not the one in a million Jenny McCarthy claimed shot that caused-case. I mean a verified 100% of cases. All with one common denominator. It seems that every autistic kid who's ever been diagnosed, I mean 100% of them... All breathed air shortly before the onset of their symptoms. Every one of them. No exceptions.
Don't let your kids breath air, and they won't have any chance of autism.
Seriously, anecdotal evidence means jack shit. So does unscientific analysis. Show me some research dammit. An remember that if you thing your wives' tale science of vaccination is so simple, your kid might be slapped upside the head with a good case of polio. Don't be that jackass parent.
I'm sorry but I had to make a joke, even though it's not something to laugh with =/ Life is messed up, good thing she has a caring husband.
I'll pass. As it was said in a thread before, we've already been given the best defense... an immune system. Take care of it, and you'll be fine. I think we have desensitized kids these days by loading them up with crap. It's not primarily the doctors fault, I think it's the parents. We protect them from germs and then freak out when they get the slightest sickness. Ironically, we are enabling more sickness to come. Orange Juice ftw.
You know what's scary? Fire. That shit will totally burn you, man. Seriously, I'll pass. I'm also not too sure about this whole "wheel" thing people are talking about. We've already been given the best means of transportation... legs. Take care of them and you'll be fine. Walking ftw.
SV40 infected tissue used in the process that vaccinated 98 million humans. SV40 may or may not cause cancer in humans, it certainly loves to hang out in cancerous tissue and it causes cancer in other mammals.
For just about every vaccine, there are stories like that. Well documented medical mistakes. But they keep catching them and making improvements. Sooner or later they might get it right.
I had my kid vaccinated for a lot of things, the ones we passed on it made sense. Waiting was even recommended on quite a few of them. All of them we passed on could be done at a later date and safer vaccines where in the works. Rushing to get it all done now just didn't make sense.
It makes some points that I agree with:
American children who are not vaccinated remain healthy for now because they are essentially freeloading on the herd immunity all around them. Their immediate environment is virus-free because everyone else is vaccinated and such diseases cannot spread.
And then goes on to site some stats:
As relayed in the Aug. 3 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, an American girl visiting Romania who wasn't inoculated against measles brought the disease home to Indiana and spread it to 36 others at a religious gathering, nearly all of whom were also not inoculated. The parents had chosen not to inoculate their children for religious reasons and a perceived fear of the dangers of vaccines.
Fortunately, although several patients were hospitalized, no one died.
Not so elsewhere in the world, where measles infects 30 million people each year, mostly children, and kills about 500,000 and sometimes as much as 10 percent of the infected in poorer regions, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).
and...
You want a cause-and-effect association? Great Britain thought pertussis disappeared and cut back on immunization in 1974. By 1978 there was an epidemic of more than 100,000 cases and 36 deaths. Same goes for Sweden and Japan. Diphtheria immunization fell with the break up of the Soviet Union. The number of cases rose from 839 in 1989 to nearly 50,000 in 1994, including 1,700 deaths, according to the WHO. On the flip side, we have success stories. Since the introduction of the Hib (Haemophilus influenzae type b) vaccine in 1990, Hib rates have fallen 99 percent in the United States.
If you don't question it you miss the chance they might say "you know what you really don't need this." or "Lets talk about the risks".
Same article: I would like to add if the disease is contracted in the un-inoculated it will more than likely not go unaided by modern medicine unless they live in a mud/dung hut where it's 2 weeks travel to the nearest clinic which may or may not be open.
1% huh... scary.
Chickenpox:
Same article: Wait, don't get a vaccine they try to push on everyone unless they ask about it? The vaccine came out in 1980 till now is not enough time to determine if the vaccine acts like chickenpox and causes shingles in a percent of the public who contract it. Shingles is way worse than chickenpox could ever be. And they're not even testing the vaccine to see if can cause shingles, if you get the vaccine you are the test cases, woo!
If the vaccine does like its diseased brother and does produce shingles, then I would rather ride out the risk of getting chickenpox normally, and then ride out the risk of getting shingles, instead of enrolling her in the shingles vaccine trials.
Vaccinations in general: If you're body doesn't continue to encounter the viruses it stops building up immunity to whatever it is and you become susceptible to it again. People might be on record as free and clear but they technically aren't. So don't forget your adult booster shots on the big ones too. Your little one might bring something home that doesn't kick his ass but yours...
(wait did vig just say to get adult vaccinations!? Yes after you read up on them, but don't assume your safety is based on some ancient vac records. And get your jabs before you travel.)
I'll say it again, I'm not 100% against all vaccines, just a few of them and those I'd rather wait on because there isn't a burning need. For some of them they're safe or at least unproven to be unhealthy and the rewards outweigh the risks. Or at least no one is really doing any "credible" studies because the risks of the disease are still too high.
Measles Mumps and Rubella:
These are hardly killers in the virus world.
MMR should be spaced out but some places still gang them all together most people don't know, don't care and don't ask. Despite the autism hysteria their effectiveness has been known to be diminished if they are ganged up. In today's "phew we got the shot we're all good" society it wouldn't surprise me if more people are in need of adult booster shots.
Measles, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles
"There is no cure for measles. Most patients with uncomplicated measles will recover with rest and supportive treatment."
1% chance of killing, yea it can mess you up for a while but low chance of death unless you're in a category at higher risk, then maybe you should.
Mumps, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumps
"Death is very unusual. The disease is self-limiting, and general outcome is good, even if other organs are involved."
Unpleasant but not deadly.
Rubella, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella "Rubella infection of children and adults is usually mild, self-limiting and often asymptomatic."
"The immunisation program has been quite successful. Cuba declared the disease eliminated in the 1990s, and in 2004 the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention announced that both the congenital and acquired forms of rubella had been eliminated from the United States.[15][16]"
Nope not a big killer and its been eliminated form the US. Planning on traveling? Maybe get your jabs as per usual.
The US has a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. In the last 10 years this program has paid out over $1 billion in payments to vaccine damaged children of which a 14% share has been paid out for MMR or its components. The drug companies have to contribute to the program and up to August 1997 they had to pay an excise tax on each dose using a risk-based formula. The DTP and MMR were taxed at $4.56 and $4.44, polio vaccines at $0.29 and DT (diphtheria/tetanus) vaccines at $0.06. This must surely give an indication of which vaccines carry the highest risk of a serious adverse reaction. The US administration will not pay out compensation because of unfounded scare stories only hard science.
So why have a "sorry we broken you" program if vaccines don't break people? But don't worry if you screw your kid up there's a big pile of money in it for ya.
Smallpox:
Lets talk about smallpox. The campaign has been so successful and the risks are so well known that its no longer routinely given.
Will we get to this point in the future with other vaccines? More than likely. Was the risk of the vaccine down played until it was eradicated? Sure was.
Is it nearly impossible to get the smallpox vaccine now? Sure is.
Is that because its so safe everyone would want it? umm no. At some point the risks of the vaccine outweigh the risk of the disease. Is vaccination a good and necessary thing? In some cases yes. Should we actively question what is put in our bodies for relevance? Probably a good idea.
I agree with you wholeheartedly here VIG. Some vaccinations are not worth the risk. But in the cases of certain vaccinations, where you have maybe a 1% chance of unpleasant side effects, and the disease has the possible side effect of death, I'd take the vaccination.
I'm really not trying to start an argument with you. Your analysis is valid, and your approach to vaccination is perfectly sound, and the same thing approach that I use for my child. But for some people to not vaccinate their children at all because of some BS reasons is totally ludicrous. They are putting their children in jeapordy. Because of something Jenny McCarthy says.
I'd encourage people to do their homework, talk to their doctors, and verify which vaccines really are a good idea, and which ones might be slightly risky options. But to just throw an idiot blanket over the whole thing and not vaccinate their children against anything just pisses me off.
I don't know if Flu shots really do hurt you or if they don't, but either way, I've never got one and I never will. It just weakens your immune system, I rarely every get sick. And If I do I recover in a day or two, I think flu shots are more of a money maker than anything.
Useless trash, is what they are.
As a response to the person above me, I dunno about asthma, but doctors say to me "YOU MUST GET A FLU SHOT" and I never do, and I tell them no. And I'm perfectly fine, and I've never seen proof of a flu shot actually working so I'm gonna call BS on the flu shot.
Would this story have even made the news if the girl wasn't a hot cheerleader. Everybody's like, "awww, what a waste." What a waste of hottness. Goddamn it...
HERALD MY RAGE!