He's excited by the results he got from a tool and is exploring why that is. I can see where its a bit funny but honestly, I hope he never looses that. It's a good skill to have.
Is it a little annoying he constantly makes excuses for his art being semi-ok because of his age? Yea.
But does he know he needs an answer to a question he's not sure how to ask? Yea.
At least he's figuring out the answers and refining the way he asks questions. Which is better than never putting himself out there and choosing to remain in the dark about things.
At PC, you might get slapped around a bit but you almost always get useful info.
Qouted for truth.
You got it man. I really didn't know how to ask the question.
Again, thanks for the time taken in making these posts for me to read.
It's not really. Simply passing photographs through Crazybump is the wrong way to do it and yeah, that's lazy. It often requires a bit of extra input before you get proper results doing that (and doing those, I wouldn't call lazy either). However, it has lots of useful and speedy uses for professionals that I don't think you could call lazy, just practical and efficient - as professionals should be.
shutup EQ what do you know ??? Real artists paint every pixels by hand on their normals you fucking hax, stop using shit oh and don't use photoshop, REAL ARTIST USE PAINT and not any of this layers and blending mode malarkey !!
you lazy, lazy fuck
I think Spleen is trying to say that it is perhaps good that somone can make use of other software to make the same sort of thing and EQ (Who has a very valid point that I'm sticking with) says that optimization is better. Studios work on deadlines, uh hu, and they need to get stuff done quick so they want people who can do something in less time than the other guy. That to me makes alot of sense and I understand that completley. I think Spleen was saying its good to use diffrent technology that the other guy doesn't use to make the same thing?
Idk, I'm just chipping in here.
Also, I',m not a troll
Along with many other people I know, we don't use crazy bump for the reasons I've stated, I said it was lazy for effect, not because I think people who use it are lazy.
Why is everyone using the arguement that "real artist paint with brushes" and all that crap, that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
Why are you all attacking me and my skills for not liking CB, and having the ability to use more basic approaches?
Put simply, I was offering my opinion to Chaos, trying to put him off getting buried down in CB, without actually understanding properly how normal maps work.
You're a moderator, yet you are very abusive towards people you disagree with, I'm going to make an official complaint about your attitude towards members, sighting the post above, and others I've read from you, you are an ass. I expect that sort of attitude from a member, but moderators should be far more fair minded.
I would really like to know what video game college you went to that beat this foolish opinion into your head, because it sure as fuck didn't come from actually working in the games industry.
I didn't know they did video game colleges, I taught myself a large amount of what I know and don't need to prove anything to an arsehole like yourself, and yes, my opinions were formed by talking to my co workers, and actually using CB.
why are we even discussion this. Crazybump does exactly thesame thing as nvidiafilter AND MORE! I don't understand why you wouldn't want to use a more capable tool.
I use both of them btw.. but the nvidia one I really only find useful for small pixel-level details though. Crazybump is good for making big random shapes which nvidiafilter isn't too good at!
Along with many other people I know, we don't use crazy bump for the reasons I've stated, I said it was lazy for effect, not because I think people who use it are lazy.
Why is everyone using the arguement that "real artist paint with brushes" and all that crap, that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
Why are you all attacking me and my skills for not liking CB, and having the ability to use more basic approaches?
Put simply, I was offering my opinion to Chaos, trying to put him off getting buried down in CB, without actually understanding properly how normal maps work.
Well if you explained it in a nice way. Like "a deeper understanding of what is going on under the hood will lead to a deeper understanding of the results and how to manipulate it and other tools. Be careful not to just relay on crazybump but don't be scared to use it and other tools, after you understand them." Then yea, I'd agree with you.
But being childish and calling people idiots and making inflammatory statements just for effect, will just get you a bunch of pain. You tried to deride crazybump and scare him off a perfectly great tool.
Instead of having a tool warehouse and great working knowledge of them all. You tried to win someone over to your way of doing things and told him all he needs is a rock.
"See it pounds nails and screws"
"But wait don't you screw in screws with a screwdriver?"
"Not when you have a roCk!"
Screw that, get the right tools for the job and get it done as fast as possible. If what you're doing works fine with the Nvidia filter great. But try and bully people into thinking thats all that anyone ever needs for every job out there.
You call out EQ for being a jerk, but you can't really take the high road can ya? He was reacting to some stupid stuff you said. Next time think before you post...
Guys, I've learnt alot in this thread. But I don't want this thread to start getting people banned or whatever. Again, thanks for the replies.
Mods, if you feel this thread is getting out of hand you can close it.
I wasn't calling people idiots, I called slum and idiot, because he was trolling.
I said CB was lazy, but then I admitted that I was wrong, and that I was being glib.
Well if you explained a deeper understanding of what is going on under the hood will lead to a deeper understanding of the results and how to manipulate it and other tools, then yea I'd agree with you.
I may not have said it with such eloquence, but that's what I was trying to say.
You call out EQ for being a jerk, but you can't really take the high road can ya? He was reacting to some stupid stuff you said. Next time think before you post...
I try to, but I often make mistakes. And I'm not a moderator, his attitude is normal for members of polycount, however I expect better from moderators, do you see my point?
And just to make a point, I haven't said anybody is wrong, I've passed on my opinion, which alot of people disagree with, but more say I'm straight out wrong, and leave it at that. That's not what forms a good community, I'm quite surpirised at how much abuse I've received, rather than structured arguments.
I try to, but I often make mistakes. And I'm not a moderator, his attitude is normal for members of polycount, however I expect better from moderators, do you see my point?
Sure do. I'm not making excuses for EQ, I've disagreed with him plenty of times but I respect him and I don't take it personally. I agree with his core message even if the wrapping paper was a bit ugly.
I think you have a good core message if you clean it up and modify it a bit. But left raw and struggling on the floor for life I think it will only repulse people.
And just to make a point, I haven't said anybody is wrong, I've passed on my opinion, which alot of people disagree with, but more say I'm straight out wrong, and leave it at that. That's not what forms a good community, I'm quite surpirised at how much abuse I've received, rather than structured arguments.
You passed on more tude than opinion. Its the tude people are reacting too. Garbage in garbage out, if you make well thought out statements you're more likely to get the same thing back...
Lesson learned thread re-re-rerailed.
So Normal Maps whats up with having to invert the green channel sometimes? (psst I already know just making polite convo)
Lol, vig, since its me asking this question, it is understandable.
Why do we have to invert green? I have to when I try stuff with Max baking and also I think its the same sort xNormal.
Its simple, if you start off slinging insults and calling people lazy, even if you later retract these statements, you're not going to get the best response. If you want to be treated with respect, and have serious discussions you need to be mindful of what you say and the way you say it.
I may be an asshole, and if anyone would have reason to say so it would probably be vig here, but i think you've offended more people in this thread than i have in a while. At the end of the day it isnt about being a nicey-nice guy with every single post i make, but more important that the majority of my posts are proactive and helpful to the community(nobody is perfect, even moderators), which i think you would have a hard time arguing with if you've looked at more than a few of my posts(in what amounts to a half-troll thread in the first place). Can you say the same for yourself, are you really being a productive member of the community here? But yet you blast this same community for being unproductive.
Its simple, if you start off slinging insults and calling people lazy, even if you later retract these statements...
I didn't "sling" insults, and you're basically implying that people can't apologise.
I am truly sorry for "offending" anyone, but if you took offence from what I said... I don't know what to say, I can't understand why anyone would be offended.
Disagreeing with people is not offensive.
You have absolutley nothing to back up your statement, I didn't insult anyone, I didn't say anyone was wrong, people have just made knee jerk reactions because I disagreed.
And yes I can say I am a productive member of the community, as I had a pm thanking me for my contribution in this post, and the same pm said that you are being a dick.
I didn't even blast the community. I wouldn't blast an entire community. I may be new around here, but don't think that I'm going to sit back and watch people like you and Vig get on your proverbial high horses and tell people they're wrong, especially in such grey areas.
Lol, vig, since its me asking this question, it is understandable.
Why do we have to invert green? I have to when I try stuff with Max baking and also I think its the same sort xNormal.
Short answer:
Not all normal maps are the same. Every render engine is a little different requiring slightly different maps.
Longer answer: (Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm off)
The different color channels RGB mean different things to different rendering engines.
Each channel pushes pixels one way or another. A normal map is like a regular Black/White bump map but each channel pushes pixels not just up (Z Axis) but also in X and Y.
R might push X Axis + or -, G might push Y, B might push Z.
Each channel as a range 0-255, some engines read the +/- values differently.
The most common difference is the green channel needing to be inverted.
The polycount wiki (linked in my signature) has some pretty interesting info on normal maps, as does wikipedia and a bunch of other sites.
Its simple, if you start off slinging insults and calling people lazy, even if you later retract these statements, you're not going to get the best response. If you want to be treated with respect, and have serious discussions you need to be mindful of what you say and the way you say it.
I may be an asshole, and if anyone would have reason to say so it would probably be vig here, but i think you've offended more people in this thread than i have in a while. At the end of the day it isnt about being a nicey-nice guy with every single post i make, but more important that the majority of my posts are proactive and helpful to the community(nobody is perfect, even moderators), which i think you would have a hard time arguing with if you've looked at more than a few of my posts(in what amounts to a half-troll thread in the first place). Can you say the same for yourself, are you really being a productive member of the community here? But yet you blast this same community for being unproductive.
EQ (and polycount in general) might punch you in the gut. But later on, after you're done gasping for air, you find 5 bucks in your pocket.
Sometimes there more to be gleamed from people who get passionate about something than people that benignly answer just the question at hand. (Now is where you cleverly take credit for masterminding the whole debacle)
It's worth noting that some engines can do both with the same normal map.
For example, if you have a symetrical character, you can apply the same normal map to both sides.
Even though one side will essentially have inverted details, the engine code can invert the red or green channels (blue is depth so that does not get inverted) so that the same details appear on the other half of the character.
This means you essentially have just doubled the texture space for your character, or the texture can be half the size with the same results, depening on how you fill your cup.
All I can say is that there is a time and place for using Crazybump or Xnormal. The only thing that matters is the final product. If the final product is up to professional standards then who gives a fuck about what tools you used to get there.
I stick by what I said, all forums are full of members with bad attitudes, it's impossible to tell the difference, therefore I expect members to be abusive, but a moderator SHOULD be above all that, however EQ isn't.
The main problem you'll run into when using CrazyBump on uniquely unwrapped and rotated UV textures. It relies on the top of the image being up and the bottom being down. This isn't always true for each piece in your UV jumble.
So Crazybump works great at bringing tiles (bricks, stones, walls/floors ect) to life where the whole image faces the same way.
I stick by what I said, all forums are full of members with bad attitudes, it's impossible to tell the difference, therefore I expect members to be abusive, but a moderator SHOULD be above all that, however EQ isn't.
So where is my $5, as I feel I've been punched alot in this thread, yet I've gained nothing from it.
You're still gasping for air. If you calm down and read some of the responses that aren't to your cockhead remarks you'll find your 5'er.
$3) Being a dick and saying inflammatory things does not spark civil debate. CHA-CHING
$2) Knowing a myriad of tools and how they work and when to use them is better than sticking to one method. CHA-CHING
$1) Lom is still getting questioned answered in spite and because of you. Sometimes some good can come out of chaos. CHA-CHING
Spleen: may i ask what kind of techniques you use instead of helper programs like crazybump and the nvidia filter? It sounds a bit like you wont use them becuase they are in someway not "professional" and not becuase you think you are faster with other techniques. This sounds a bit contrived to me and maybe you care to elaborate some on your process?
I am truly sorry for "offending" anyone, but if you took offence from what I said... I don't know what to say, I can't understand why anyone would be offended.
You said people who use a powerful and efficient tool were lazy and weren't good artists. You called people idiots.
However getting [Crazybump] to do things for use is LAZY!
LazyBump, that's a far better name. If you have that much difficulty making normal maps (or hammering nails into wood) yourself using NVidia filter, then use LazyBump (get someone else to do it for you). As you say, you get the same results, but you get no better as an artist.
Yes a good employee would reuse and kit bash half of his portfolio to get a task done on time, but I don't think the same should be said of a good artist.
Dude you're certainly welcome to your opinion and the argument of "using Crazybump without knowing shit about normals" is certainly a strong argument and one that I agree with, but you've managed to couch it in the most confrontational and least helpful way imaginable.
Drop the bully attitude, you may not like what I have to say but for Vig to say that I go around insulting people and making inflammatory statements is false, I've made plenty of contributions that are reasonable, however you guys have lynched me up.
I am completely astounded that not a single person has at least stood on the fence and asked what makes CB so freaking great, that one person can't find it as all powerful as everyone else.
[irony]
Read the rest of my posts before you reply asking what I use, I DO use the NVidia filter you idiot!!
[/irony]
I use other techniques, if you seriously want to know then pm me, if you were just joining the bandwagon then well done, you have made some friends in "high" places.
Again, I apologise to the people who felt offended, because they didn't read my post seperate from others, but interperet what I say, through what others have said, such as ghostscape.
Can we just lay off Spleen please? I feel kind of bad about it -.-
He is actually making valid points... he's only stating his opinion and doesn't need to get, er, bullied about it ?
AS I SUGGESTED : We close my own thread as its getting far to out of control.
Can we just lay off Spleen please? I feel kind of bad about it -.-
He is actually making valid points... he's only stating his opinion and doesn't need to get, er, bullied about it ?
AS I SUGGESTED : We close my own thread as its getting far to out of control.
I asked earlier but you never posted them - can you post the textures you're using in both of those images?
Because the one from Crazybump looks like it has a lot of edge enhancement from a CB-generated AO, Spec, etc, which is what makes it pop compared to the one from the high rez asset.
Replies
Qouted for truth.
You got it man. I really didn't know how to ask the question.
Again, thanks for the time taken in making these posts for me to read.
Thanks dude. Link was a good read!
you lazy, lazy fuck
Idk, I'm just chipping in here.
Also, I',m not a troll
I work in the games industry as an artist.
Along with many other people I know, we don't use crazy bump for the reasons I've stated, I said it was lazy for effect, not because I think people who use it are lazy.
Why is everyone using the arguement that "real artist paint with brushes" and all that crap, that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
Why are you all attacking me and my skills for not liking CB, and having the ability to use more basic approaches?
Put simply, I was offering my opinion to Chaos, trying to put him off getting buried down in CB, without actually understanding properly how normal maps work.
@Earthquake
You're a moderator, yet you are very abusive towards people you disagree with, I'm going to make an official complaint about your attitude towards members, sighting the post above, and others I've read from you, you are an ass. I expect that sort of attitude from a member, but moderators should be far more fair minded.
I didn't know they did video game colleges, I taught myself a large amount of what I know and don't need to prove anything to an arsehole like yourself, and yes, my opinions were formed by talking to my co workers, and actually using CB.
Spleen, dude, I agree with you.
EDIT : On the non-moderator stuff. That has nothing to do with me.
I use both of them btw.. but the nvidia one I really only find useful for small pixel-level details though. Crazybump is good for making big random shapes which nvidiafilter isn't too good at!
But being childish and calling people idiots and making inflammatory statements just for effect, will just get you a bunch of pain. You tried to deride crazybump and scare him off a perfectly great tool.
Instead of having a tool warehouse and great working knowledge of them all. You tried to win someone over to your way of doing things and told him all he needs is a rock.
"See it pounds nails and screws"
"But wait don't you screw in screws with a screwdriver?"
"Not when you have a roCk!"
Screw that, get the right tools for the job and get it done as fast as possible. If what you're doing works fine with the Nvidia filter great. But try and bully people into thinking thats all that anyone ever needs for every job out there.
You call out EQ for being a jerk, but you can't really take the high road can ya? He was reacting to some stupid stuff you said. Next time think before you post...
Mods, if you feel this thread is getting out of hand you can close it.
Thanks again guys.
I wasn't calling people idiots, I called slum and idiot, because he was trolling.
I said CB was lazy, but then I admitted that I was wrong, and that I was being glib.
I may not have said it with such eloquence, but that's what I was trying to say.
I try to, but I often make mistakes. And I'm not a moderator, his attitude is normal for members of polycount, however I expect better from moderators, do you see my point?
And just to make a point, I haven't said anybody is wrong, I've passed on my opinion, which alot of people disagree with, but more say I'm straight out wrong, and leave it at that. That's not what forms a good community, I'm quite surpirised at how much abuse I've received, rather than structured arguments.
I think you have a good core message if you clean it up and modify it a bit. But left raw and struggling on the floor for life I think it will only repulse people.
You passed on more tude than opinion. Its the tude people are reacting too. Garbage in garbage out, if you make well thought out statements you're more likely to get the same thing back...
Lesson learned thread re-re-rerailed.
So Normal Maps whats up with having to invert the green channel sometimes? (psst I already know just making polite convo)
Why do we have to invert green? I have to when I try stuff with Max baking and also I think its the same sort xNormal.
I may be an asshole, and if anyone would have reason to say so it would probably be vig here, but i think you've offended more people in this thread than i have in a while.
I didn't "sling" insults, and you're basically implying that people can't apologise.
I am truly sorry for "offending" anyone, but if you took offence from what I said... I don't know what to say, I can't understand why anyone would be offended.
Disagreeing with people is not offensive.
You have absolutley nothing to back up your statement, I didn't insult anyone, I didn't say anyone was wrong, people have just made knee jerk reactions because I disagreed.
And yes I can say I am a productive member of the community, as I had a pm thanking me for my contribution in this post, and the same pm said that you are being a dick.
I didn't even blast the community. I wouldn't blast an entire community. I may be new around here, but don't think that I'm going to sit back and watch people like you and Vig get on your proverbial high horses and tell people they're wrong, especially in such grey areas.
My god I'm annoyed, I was only trying to help!
-Adam
Also, I'm curious about that PM ; P
Short answer:
Not all normal maps are the same. Every render engine is a little different requiring slightly different maps.
Longer answer: (Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm off)
The different color channels RGB mean different things to different rendering engines.
Each channel pushes pixels one way or another. A normal map is like a regular Black/White bump map but each channel pushes pixels not just up (Z Axis) but also in X and Y.
R might push X Axis + or -, G might push Y, B might push Z.
Each channel as a range 0-255, some engines read the +/- values differently.
The most common difference is the green channel needing to be inverted.
The polycount wiki (linked in my signature) has some pretty interesting info on normal maps, as does wikipedia and a bunch of other sites.
oh?
*shrug*
Sometimes there more to be gleamed from people who get passionate about something than people that benignly answer just the question at hand. (Now is where you cleverly take credit for masterminding the whole debacle)
For example, if you have a symetrical character, you can apply the same normal map to both sides.
Even though one side will essentially have inverted details, the engine code can invert the red or green channels (blue is depth so that does not get inverted) so that the same details appear on the other half of the character.
This means you essentially have just doubled the texture space for your character, or the texture can be half the size with the same results, depening on how you fill your cup.
-Adam
I stick by what I said, all forums are full of members with bad attitudes, it's impossible to tell the difference, therefore I expect members to be abusive, but a moderator SHOULD be above all that, however EQ isn't.
@Vig
So where is my $5, as I feel I've been punched alot in this thread, yet I've gained nothing from it.
So Crazybump works great at bringing tiles (bricks, stones, walls/floors ect) to life where the whole image faces the same way.
$3) Being a dick and saying inflammatory things does not spark civil debate. CHA-CHING
$2) Knowing a myriad of tools and how they work and when to use them is better than sticking to one method. CHA-CHING
$1) Lom is still getting questioned answered in spite and because of you. Sometimes some good can come out of chaos. CHA-CHING
/Me snatches the 6 bucks out of your hand.
Next time you do the work on your own.
You said people who use a powerful and efficient tool were lazy and weren't good artists. You called people idiots.
edit: and now you're calling me a liar
Dude you're certainly welcome to your opinion and the argument of "using Crazybump without knowing shit about normals" is certainly a strong argument and one that I agree with, but you've managed to couch it in the most confrontational and least helpful way imaginable.
@Vig
@EQ
Drop the bully attitude, you may not like what I have to say but for Vig to say that I go around insulting people and making inflammatory statements is false, I've made plenty of contributions that are reasonable, however you guys have lynched me up.
I am completely astounded that not a single person has at least stood on the fence and asked what makes CB so freaking great, that one person can't find it as all powerful as everyone else.
@ghostscape
liar, I never made either of those statements, that's you (and others) spinning what I said.
@motives
[irony]
Read the rest of my posts before you reply asking what I use, I DO use the NVidia filter you idiot!!
[/irony]
I use other techniques, if you seriously want to know then pm me, if you were just joining the bandwagon then well done, you have made some friends in "high" places.
Again, I apologise to the people who felt offended, because they didn't read my post seperate from others, but interperet what I say, through what others have said, such as ghostscape.
-Adam
He is actually making valid points... he's only stating his opinion and doesn't need to get, er, bullied about it ?
AS I SUGGESTED : We close my own thread as its getting far to out of control.
I asked earlier but you never posted them - can you post the textures you're using in both of those images?
Because the one from Crazybump looks like it has a lot of edge enhancement from a CB-generated AO, Spec, etc, which is what makes it pop compared to the one from the high rez asset.
Spec is has lighlights and such and so does AO. - Busy sorry can't find in time
The irony was you calling him an idiot after saying you've never called people idiot before, right? Not that you use the nvidia filter?