Communist regimes don't allow for any organised religion, just the state, and they kill lots of people.
As a person who has lived in one, communist regime that is, i can tell you that even if it was not called a Christianity or Buddhism, you still had to worship your dictator. That to me is a form of religion.
As a person who has lived in one, communist regime that is, i can tell you that even if it was not called a Christianity or Buddhism, you still had to worship your dictator. That to me is a form of religion.
Thats what I thought, surely a dictator thinks of himself as a sort of god and so he wouldnt want other gods cramping his style.
Yes I have I went to church for 10 years of my life, and I have read the bible (its sucked, although the bit about the boat was pretty cool) why importantly the new testament? I dont understand why people try to distance themselves and others from the old testament, I mean its part of the religion aswell right?
I suppose the bits about rape, genocide, sexism and homophobic views dont fit in with the lovey dovey world of Christianity today. Its odd how not 100 years ago christians would openly use gods 'wraith' on women children and so on but many are appaulled by thoses views today.
Despite that, there's no denying that there are some clear contradictions between the two. The New Testament is the New Covenant, and thus an 'updated' version. A shift of focus from faith to hope and love (although those three are intertwined). It's not a replacement, but a clarification, perhaps. The Old Testament is too much a set of rules and not enough a philosophy. Hence "Love thy neighbour" being the primary idea of Christ, from which the Ten Commandments do follow.
Or, more scientifically, the Old was written by some Jews a long time ago, while the New was written in a cosmopolitan and Romanised world, which resonates better with today's audience. It's only all too easy to find parts of the Old Testament that sound ridiculous to us now.
I just dont understand how people can take the bible (but not limited to just the bible) as fact when it has more holes than a cheesegrater , then again thats what relgion is all about right? Unquestionable faith in appsolute uncertianty.
Plus I would much rather evolve from apes than be made from mud, or if I was a woman the rib of a man (women must of been fucking tiny!)
Considering the pope already believes in evolution, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Here's an interesting quotation:
Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be. If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science.
Fr. George Coyne, Vatican's chief astronomer between 1978 and 2006.
An interpretation of the Bible as science is no less a thing of the past than eugenics. But just because the latter is a crazy and harmful science, we don't dismiss science altogether. Similarly, don't dismiss christianity because some crazy and harmful people did nasty things in its name in the past.
I can understand that you don't believe in the supernatural explanations in the Bible. That's all right. In fact, I doubt any level headed christian believes all of it today. But that's the wrong way to look at it. It describes a way to interact with people - love, forgive, never hate anyone, and so forth - and as a philosophy I haven't read many criticisms of christianity here so far. I personally think it's very strong in that regard. "Love thy neighbour" is still the best life motto I've found.
I pretty much see this debate on every message board I go to and it always ends up the same way: nobody wins and at the end of the day, we still know nothing.
I think the biggest problem we have is the inability to accept others for who they are, regardless of their views and beliefs. If I meet a cool and open minded person, it's not like I automatically dislike them once I find out they dont share the same belief as me....they dont lose cool points just for that.
when atheists start shooting abortion doctors, blowing up buildings, fucking alter boys, creating death cults, going on crusades, standing outside concert's and scream at all the people going to said concert, handing out fucking pamphlets i don't fucking want, or come to my house and knock on my door and want to come in and talk about some shit i think is stupid..
Atheists are the smartest most level minded people I know
I would love to meet those athiests. In my experience the 'movement' is comprised largely of silly little kids who are angry at organized/mainstream Christianity for being bullshit and want to try their hand at pseudo-intellectualism.
And this is just what they need, another reason to feel persecuted.
Edit: since it seems like a more intelligent discussion than i expected is going on here:
Most atheists have the same problem they hate christians for. They have dreafully closed minds about the whole thing and reject the philosophical, anthropological, and social elements of religion as 'some silly little fairytale' without any education. You know, just like the WE AINT MONKEYS people they seem to hold in such contempt.
Religion and mythology is an interesting subject, and some extremely intelligent people wrote on it well before dawkins came along to make atheism stylish.
I think you should always be suspicious of anyone touting the "Truth"- Atheist, Christian, Zoroastrian .etc...
I also heard that Atheist eat babies, and materbate in public pools in hopes that thier seed will find purchase in unsuspecting non-atheist vaginas.Monsters
I am an atheist and I read most of the bibles. I started on the first one, and it was pretty hard to swallow.
If you listen to televangelists at all you will see them always quoting from the Old Testament, so if the new stuff supersedes the old stuff someone should clue them in.
I thought the Old Testament was a comedy. The one about the guy who gets his daughter's rapist to marry her, so that they can sneak in and mutilate the genitals of the rapist and his entire family while they are hung over from the wedding party is pretty good. My favorite though was The Book of Job:
Job:"why did you kill my family and give me this terrible disease even though I did everything right?"
God: "Who are you to question me!!? I am really strong!!! and old!!!!! Anyway, I made a trivial bet with Satan for the lulz"
It is fine that the US is that way. Let them have it. They can ban drinking and birth control (both of which are just fine according to the bible). Hell they can have their own little middle east in the US for all I care. I will just go someplace where people think like me, so that I can add value to their economy and support their government.
Not to be particularly condescending, but Ninjas, you read it wrong.
Metaphorical myths written for multiple different cultures thousands of years ago are not going to seem like good literal stories in modern america. Times have changed, symbolism isnt quite the same, of course it seems backwards and silly.
That said, everyone should be able to agree that anyone reading the texts straight up literally is fooling themselves. Hell, the judeaochristian old testament has two different creation stories, traced to two different cultures, ONE AFTER ANOTHER.
An adult believing god is a beared old man is akin to a child believing in santa claus. Santa claus is representative of their parents/the community/Christmas spirit and in and of that capacity is a real thing. God is symbolic of transcendence, which is a more than valid philosophical concept.
Not to be particularly condescending, but Ninjas, you read it wrong.
My reading compreshension on the GRE was above the 90th percentile. I scored a perfect on the only other standardized test I took with reading comprehension. I would be VERY surprised if I read it wrong.
I can understand that you don't believe in the supernatural explanations in the Bible. That's all right. In fact, I doubt any level headed christian believes all of it today. But that's the wrong way to look at it. It describes a way to interact with people - love, forgive, never hate anyone, and so forth - and as a philosophy I haven't read many criticisms of christianity here so far. I personally think it's very strong in that regard. "Love thy neighbour" is still the best life motto I've found.
Just because I dont believe, dosent make me a bad person or one that hates, I give to oxfam unicef and water aid, I hate any kind of prejudice and racism, contaray to many athetists are generally nice people (that goes for all groups of people).
And I would agree Love thy neighbour is a good quote to go by. Or in other words 'be nice' which is what I go by.
The thing that bugs me is sciences contradicts religion yet mainstream relgion intergrates it with odd results (scientology bascily) which make no sense at all but is gaining popularity.
Im glad to see this thread hasnt fallen into the 'locked' category, yet.
My reading compreshension on the GRE was above the 90th percentile. I scored a perfect on the only other standardized test I took with reading comprehension. I would be VERY surprised if I read it wrong.
I elaborated on how. Seeing as we both have fantastic reading comprehension we should be able to have an intelligent discussion about this.
The error of most athiests and most christians is to think the bible has anything to do with literal fact. It's not just metaphor, it's metaphor drawn from multiple (sometimes competing sources) written by and for cultures thousands of years ago.
Editing all of this out with a much more succinct, insightful point: A quote of Joseph Campbell (someone who I very much admire on the subject)
Every mythology has to do with the wisdom of life as related to a specific culture at a specific time. It integrates the individual into his society and the society into the field of nature. It unites the field of nature with my nature. It's a harmonizing force. Our own mythology, for example, is based on the idea of duality: good and evil, heaven and hell. And so our religions tend to be ethical in their accent.
Say this in the bible belt and you will be stoned for blasphemy
Agreed.
So naturally i should throw a tantrum and decide that anyone who contemplates religion is a big dumb meanie head and obviously the REAL TRUTH is that religion is bad.
So naturally i should throw a tantrum and decide that anyone who contemplates religion is a big dumb meanie head and obviously the REAL TRUTH is that religion is bad.
Erm......yes?..No wait, was that a trick question?
Joseph Campbell is great. I have been watching the series from the 90's (?) with him and that dude from PBS.
I think you (and he) are right that the myths reflect a specific culture, but that just shows how barbaric the people in the Bible were compared to what I believe.
Joseph Campbell's main point is that there are many universal themes, and that the individual metaphors map to archetypes. I don't think the metaphors in the bible are especially subtle to people who grew up in the US. I spent most of my life in Texas and Oklahoma, smack dab in the middle of the bible belt, so the Christian culture was very much a part of my life.
Joseph Campbell is great. I have been watching the series from the 90's (?) with him and that dude from PBS.
I think you are right that the myths reflect a specific culture, but that just shows how barbaric the people in the Bible were compared to what I believe.
Joseph Campbell's main point is that there are many universal themes, and that the individual metaphors map to archetypes. I don't think the metaphors in the bible are especially subtle to people who grew up in the US. I spent most of my life in Texas and Oklahoma, smack dab in the middle of the bible belt, so the Christian culture was very much a part of my life.
Agreed, i just think atheism suffers from the same problems. Generally speaking people arent very subtle.
And yes, man, that series was amazing, one of the last things campbell did before he died. 80s.
And I would agree Love thy neighbour is a good quote to go by. Or in other words 'be nice' which is what I go by.
Neat, that's my idea too . I personally found the Bible and other christian writings to be helpful in this regard. Forgiving everyone is more than you're inclined to do, but I think it's a good mentality.
So let's see, we agree that people should be nice to each other and we agree that humans developed from apes. Seriously, what's left to argue about? If God really exists? That's not a terribly interesting question, IMO, because the Bible should be read out of agreement with what it says, not out of fear.
is it ironic that when reading this thread all of the atheists involved in the discussion are well displayed as arrogant assholes who tell everyone else that their beliefs are wrong and stupid and if only everyone was as smart as they were they'd understand how wrong they really are?
I mean it's a little funny for such people to be acting exactly like those they demonize. Replace a few words and suddenly I'm listening to a crowd of hardcore evangelists spewing the same hate in the opposite direction.
So let's see, we agree that people should be nice to each other and we agree that humans developed from monkeys. Seriously, what's left to argue about?
People should just stop trying to get everyone to agree with them. Oops, guilty damnit!
is it ironic that when reading this thread all of the atheists involved in the discussion are well displayed as arrogant assholes who tell everyone else that their beliefs are wrong and stupid and if only everyone was as smart as they were they'd understand how wrong they really are?
I mean it's a little funny for such people to be acting exactly like those they demonize. Replace a few words and suddenly I'm listening to a crowd of hardcore evangelists spewing the same hate in the opposite direction.
I don't know, I believe in god, and think something happens after u die, but really who knows.
But, what bothers me is, why the fuck does it matter what I or anyone else thinks. If they aren't personally involving you, or trying to convert you or whatever, then what's it to you.
I've always felt that way about anything. If I like a certain band, or movie or game or whatever, if it's not physically causing someone else pain or suffering or what have you, then who cares. People get pissed off or get in arguments about these things, but it's like, if you don't like it... don't listen to/watch it???
People just like to bitch I think. I mean, I am guilty of it, but I don't get into heated arguments about anything, because it's worthless.
Aside from personal religious beliefs, I think perhaps the most damaging aspect of many organized religions (though Christianity seems to be an easy target for most) is that it actively discourages asking questions regarding the finer details of the tenets of the faith in question. Biblical statements such as 'God moves in mysterious ways' or 'one can never truly know the mind of God' sounds like a cop-out to me.
Given that most of the Bible (again, for sake of example) can be interpreted quite widely, from the literal to the obviously metaphorical, there will always be someone, somewhere will always assume that every single word should be taken at face value - no arguments, or room for interpretation.
And you know what? That's fine, if that's what they believe, and I'll be happy to discuss their faith with them - as long as they can articulate why they believe that in a more coherent and logical manner than parroting 'because God / my pastor / my parents told me so.'
I'd like to see some religious discussion by people using their minds and actually thinking for a change. Maybe then we'd see some more widespread acceptance of mainstream religion by the sceptical.
Aside from personal religious beliefs, I think perhaps the most damaging aspect of many organized religions (though Christianity seems to be an easy target for most) is that it actively discourages asking questions regarding the finer details of the tenets of the faith in question. Biblical statements such as 'God moves in mysterious ways' or 'one can never truly know the mind of God' sounds like a cop-out to me.
It isnt, though. Anyone basically educated can see that it is the only real thing of factual substance in the religion.
The very definition of 'transcendent' is that it transcends understanding. Explain to me exactly how anyone is qualified to question -- scientifically or religiously -- that which is outside of the bounds of perception.
Religion is about contemplating that there is something -- metaphorical or literal or whatever -- beyond your understanding.
The very definition of 'transcendent' is that it transcends understanding. Explain to me exactly how anyone is qualified to question -- scientifically or religiously -- that which is outside of the bounds of perception.
If someone cannot question something beyond the boundaries of perception, then how can someone authoritatively teach it?
If someone cannot question something beyond the boundaries of perception, then how can someone authoritatively teach it?
You can't. Only communicate that it;s worth contemplating.
Buddhist, catholic, taoist monks, primitive cultures' shamans, and well educated philosophers have all agreed on this. You cant teach it! that's ridiculous!
The issue comes up when your culture grows to a point that it implements clergy. Priests are given the ridiculous job of trying to teach a subject that cannot be learned, only contemplated. They preach myths and tell stories that, if thought about 'properly' (actually any number of ways) can lead to introspection. And a lot of people get tripped up on the specifics. It's silly as hell when an athiest says there is nothing that cannot be seen, because quite clearly sight is a pretty arbitrary and limited sense to go off of. It's childish when a bible beater says a bearded etherman is watching you too. As i said earlier, believing in santa claus is folly, but the symbol of santa claus teaches something to children, doesnt it?
You remember the silly matrix 'there is no spoon'? The Buddhist stereotype saying 'what is a flower?' The primitive culture's sacramented ground? The Christian cross?
What is the significance of a symbol? What is the significance of your shirt? A flower? Well in a sense, there isnt one. It exists. But then at the same time, that's pretty damn significant. What scientific, magical, or godly, or whatever, circumstances allow things to exist? How does that effect your day to day life? That's religion.
The details of the individual stories are all just different words about looking at life, and questioning the transcendent elements. When you consider why jesus died on the cross, you're considering the significance of life. It doesnt matter who nailed whose hands where.
I don't necessarily think they are the smartest... but they do seem to think more clearly... if that makes sense,. I still can't fathom how one can think that NOTHING happens once they die... what a fucking waste if that is true... such a waste.
I know you already responded to a similar comment, but your way of thinking has the exact same effect on me, haha. I'm proud to be an atheist and, I think, by "knowing" (though, really, no one knows...but I have a pretty good feeling there's no after life..) that this is all I have it makes me enjoy my life even more. If I could be immortal, I'd love it, I don't want to die...but I think a lot of people live a sheltered life because they think the main event happens after they die. To me, that's a waste of life.
Neat, that's my idea too . I personally found the Bible and other christian writings to be helpful in this regard. Forgiving everyone is more than you're inclined to do, but I think it's a good mentality.
So let's see, we agree that people should be nice to each other and we agree that humans developed from apes. Seriously, what's left to argue about?
Fortunately, not alot but in the same vain everything, although that stuff is the stuff noone can answer till your dead and nobody comes back from the dead so yer at a stalemate really.
Im happy knowing that I will rot away or been turned into dust as by then I will be dead and wont give two testes what happens to me.
I thought I summed it up nicely at the beginning of the thread. It shouldn't matter what someone believes, or what their denomination is. I just hope that everyone would be trying to uphold their ideals and be thinking for themselves; drawing their own conclusions. Rather than accepting answers given to them and holding them as absolute.
For the record, I do consider myself an atheist, and in the past I have probably been one of those annoying pushy types. I really try not to be now, because I have realized that it's just as bad as being militantly religious.
After you die, There is a really really really good chance nothing will happen. Back into the Void "we" go. Our cells and molecules and atoms in a disarrangement just as before we were born. We are all just walking talking forms of information that have accumulated and propagated through time, chemistry and physics.
And of course, this may sound bleak, because you are alive enough to feel bleak about it. :P
One thing you could look forward to while you are alive is that consciousnesses keeps re-emerging. AKA.. go have sex and make babes. Or not. Meh.
Well yeah totally Swamp. But I think that as soon as we change perspective -that is to say, not looking from ones mere point of view anymore but taking the one of the species for instance, or looking at a much wider scale of time, or even, a much smaller spacial scale like subatomic components - it all suddently becomes such a fantastic, kickass, awesome field for discoveries, paradoxes, you name it. Simply put : unexpected, puzzling, wonderful, mind-bending stuff aka science. And somehow, the deeper you get in there, the more philosophical it gets. I think it's so cool!!!
What I am trying to say is that, simply through scientific thinking, on can reach levels of wonder just as jaw dropping and mind boggling, if not more, than say, the bearded old man/zombie on a cross hypothesis (not trying to be disrespectful here, just trying to find words to express my puzzlement when dealing with folks talking about it all in a very literal manner, rather than talking about the symbols) Because sometimes I feel like to some people, it is an 'answer' to then move along. What I think is much more fun, is to not know, and realizing how little we know indeed. Which goes back to what I believe is the cause of the study mentioned by the OP : fear of the unknown.
(obviously I am only talking about the "why/how are we here" side of the coin. To me, "don't hurt thy neighbour" is something completely separate from divine beliefs. More like common sense, than religion.)
I think as long as people retain a sense of humor, it doesn't matter all that much what they believe. It's when people get too serious that I get all.... ehhhmmmm.
Replies
As a person who has lived in one, communist regime that is, i can tell you that even if it was not called a Christianity or Buddhism, you still had to worship your dictator. That to me is a form of religion.
Thats what I thought, surely a dictator thinks of himself as a sort of god and so he wouldnt want other gods cramping his style.
The middle of the sun, also called the core, is calculated to have about ~15.7
http://wikibin.org/articles/ateapotist.html
Im pretty sure its just anywhere thats improbable, using an unassuming item.
hells yeah bitch!
Only thing I don't like is people constantly trying to convert me. It's so fucking annoying - keep your beliefs to yourself please...
that, and the separation of church and state: can we have it actually work pls thx?
Or, more scientifically, the Old was written by some Jews a long time ago, while the New was written in a cosmopolitan and Romanised world, which resonates better with today's audience. It's only all too easy to find parts of the Old Testament that sound ridiculous to us now.
Considering the pope already believes in evolution, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Here's an interesting quotation:
Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be. If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science.
Fr. George Coyne, Vatican's chief astronomer between 1978 and 2006.
An interpretation of the Bible as science is no less a thing of the past than eugenics. But just because the latter is a crazy and harmful science, we don't dismiss science altogether. Similarly, don't dismiss christianity because some crazy and harmful people did nasty things in its name in the past.
I can understand that you don't believe in the supernatural explanations in the Bible. That's all right. In fact, I doubt any level headed christian believes all of it today. But that's the wrong way to look at it. It describes a way to interact with people - love, forgive, never hate anyone, and so forth - and as a philosophy I haven't read many criticisms of christianity here so far. I personally think it's very strong in that regard. "Love thy neighbour" is still the best life motto I've found.
I think the biggest problem we have is the inability to accept others for who they are, regardless of their views and beliefs. If I meet a cool and open minded person, it's not like I automatically dislike them once I find out they dont share the same belief as me....they dont lose cool points just for that.
then i will be scared of them..
People are jerks no matter what their religion, culture, creed or colour. Who the fuck cares what they think? They're jerks.
If everyone considered this for just a moment I think we'd all be rather better off.
I would love to meet those athiests. In my experience the 'movement' is comprised largely of silly little kids who are angry at organized/mainstream Christianity for being bullshit and want to try their hand at pseudo-intellectualism.
And this is just what they need, another reason to feel persecuted.
Edit: since it seems like a more intelligent discussion than i expected is going on here:
Most atheists have the same problem they hate christians for. They have dreafully closed minds about the whole thing and reject the philosophical, anthropological, and social elements of religion as 'some silly little fairytale' without any education. You know, just like the WE AINT MONKEYS people they seem to hold in such contempt.
Religion and mythology is an interesting subject, and some extremely intelligent people wrote on it well before dawkins came along to make atheism stylish.
this isn't just american. way to stereotype us.
I also heard that Atheist eat babies, and materbate in public pools in hopes that thier seed will find purchase in unsuspecting non-atheist vaginas.Monsters
If you listen to televangelists at all you will see them always quoting from the Old Testament, so if the new stuff supersedes the old stuff someone should clue them in.
I thought the Old Testament was a comedy. The one about the guy who gets his daughter's rapist to marry her, so that they can sneak in and mutilate the genitals of the rapist and his entire family while they are hung over from the wedding party is pretty good. My favorite though was The Book of Job:
Job:"why did you kill my family and give me this terrible disease even though I did everything right?"
God: "Who are you to question me!!? I am really strong!!! and old!!!!! Anyway, I made a trivial bet with Satan for the lulz"
It is fine that the US is that way. Let them have it. They can ban drinking and birth control (both of which are just fine according to the bible). Hell they can have their own little middle east in the US for all I care. I will just go someplace where people think like me, so that I can add value to their economy and support their government.
Metaphorical myths written for multiple different cultures thousands of years ago are not going to seem like good literal stories in modern america. Times have changed, symbolism isnt quite the same, of course it seems backwards and silly.
That said, everyone should be able to agree that anyone reading the texts straight up literally is fooling themselves. Hell, the judeaochristian old testament has two different creation stories, traced to two different cultures, ONE AFTER ANOTHER.
An adult believing god is a beared old man is akin to a child believing in santa claus. Santa claus is representative of their parents/the community/Christmas spirit and in and of that capacity is a real thing. God is symbolic of transcendence, which is a more than valid philosophical concept.
My reading compreshension on the GRE was above the 90th percentile. I scored a perfect on the only other standardized test I took with reading comprehension. I would be VERY surprised if I read it wrong.
[ame]
Just because I dont believe, dosent make me a bad person or one that hates, I give to oxfam unicef and water aid, I hate any kind of prejudice and racism, contaray to many athetists are generally nice people (that goes for all groups of people).
And I would agree Love thy neighbour is a good quote to go by. Or in other words 'be nice' which is what I go by.
The thing that bugs me is sciences contradicts religion yet mainstream relgion intergrates it with odd results (scientology bascily) which make no sense at all but is gaining popularity.
Im glad to see this thread hasnt fallen into the 'locked' category, yet.
So many people are going to take this the wrong way, facepalm/
I elaborated on how. Seeing as we both have fantastic reading comprehension we should be able to have an intelligent discussion about this.
The error of most athiests and most christians is to think the bible has anything to do with literal fact. It's not just metaphor, it's metaphor drawn from multiple (sometimes competing sources) written by and for cultures thousands of years ago.
Editing all of this out with a much more succinct, insightful point: A quote of Joseph Campbell (someone who I very much admire on the subject)
Say this in the bible belt and you will be stoned for blasphemy
Agreed.
So naturally i should throw a tantrum and decide that anyone who contemplates religion is a big dumb meanie head and obviously the REAL TRUTH is that religion is bad.
Erm......yes?..No wait, was that a trick question?
[ame]
I think you (and he) are right that the myths reflect a specific culture, but that just shows how barbaric the people in the Bible were compared to what I believe.
Joseph Campbell's main point is that there are many universal themes, and that the individual metaphors map to archetypes. I don't think the metaphors in the bible are especially subtle to people who grew up in the US. I spent most of my life in Texas and Oklahoma, smack dab in the middle of the bible belt, so the Christian culture was very much a part of my life.
Agreed, i just think atheism suffers from the same problems. Generally speaking people arent very subtle.
And yes, man, that series was amazing, one of the last things campbell did before he died. 80s.
So let's see, we agree that people should be nice to each other and we agree that humans developed from apes. Seriously, what's left to argue about? If God really exists? That's not a terribly interesting question, IMO, because the Bible should be read out of agreement with what it says, not out of fear.
I mean it's a little funny for such people to be acting exactly like those they demonize. Replace a few words and suddenly I'm listening to a crowd of hardcore evangelists spewing the same hate in the opposite direction.
People should just stop trying to get everyone to agree with them. Oops, guilty
So... you're an atheist?
But, what bothers me is, why the fuck does it matter what I or anyone else thinks. If they aren't personally involving you, or trying to convert you or whatever, then what's it to you.
I've always felt that way about anything. If I like a certain band, or movie or game or whatever, if it's not physically causing someone else pain or suffering or what have you, then who cares. People get pissed off or get in arguments about these things, but it's like, if you don't like it... don't listen to/watch it???
People just like to bitch I think. I mean, I am guilty of it, but I don't get into heated arguments about anything, because it's worthless.
Given that most of the Bible (again, for sake of example) can be interpreted quite widely, from the literal to the obviously metaphorical, there will always be someone, somewhere will always assume that every single word should be taken at face value - no arguments, or room for interpretation.
And you know what? That's fine, if that's what they believe, and I'll be happy to discuss their faith with them - as long as they can articulate why they believe that in a more coherent and logical manner than parroting 'because God / my pastor / my parents told me so.'
I'd like to see some religious discussion by people using their minds and actually thinking for a change. Maybe then we'd see some more widespread acceptance of mainstream religion by the sceptical.
It isnt, though. Anyone basically educated can see that it is the only real thing of factual substance in the religion.
The very definition of 'transcendent' is that it transcends understanding. Explain to me exactly how anyone is qualified to question -- scientifically or religiously -- that which is outside of the bounds of perception.
Religion is about contemplating that there is something -- metaphorical or literal or whatever -- beyond your understanding.
If someone cannot question something beyond the boundaries of perception, then how can someone authoritatively teach it?
You can't. Only communicate that it;s worth contemplating.
Buddhist, catholic, taoist monks, primitive cultures' shamans, and well educated philosophers have all agreed on this. You cant teach it! that's ridiculous!
The issue comes up when your culture grows to a point that it implements clergy. Priests are given the ridiculous job of trying to teach a subject that cannot be learned, only contemplated. They preach myths and tell stories that, if thought about 'properly' (actually any number of ways) can lead to introspection. And a lot of people get tripped up on the specifics. It's silly as hell when an athiest says there is nothing that cannot be seen, because quite clearly sight is a pretty arbitrary and limited sense to go off of. It's childish when a bible beater says a bearded etherman is watching you too. As i said earlier, believing in santa claus is folly, but the symbol of santa claus teaches something to children, doesnt it?
You remember the silly matrix 'there is no spoon'? The Buddhist stereotype saying 'what is a flower?' The primitive culture's sacramented ground? The Christian cross?
What is the significance of a symbol? What is the significance of your shirt? A flower? Well in a sense, there isnt one. It exists. But then at the same time, that's pretty damn significant. What scientific, magical, or godly, or whatever, circumstances allow things to exist? How does that effect your day to day life? That's religion.
The details of the individual stories are all just different words about looking at life, and questioning the transcendent elements. When you consider why jesus died on the cross, you're considering the significance of life. It doesnt matter who nailed whose hands where.
I know you already responded to a similar comment, but your way of thinking has the exact same effect on me, haha. I'm proud to be an atheist and, I think, by "knowing" (though, really, no one knows...but I have a pretty good feeling there's no after life..) that this is all I have it makes me enjoy my life even more. If I could be immortal, I'd love it, I don't want to die...but I think a lot of people live a sheltered life because they think the main event happens after they die. To me, that's a waste of life.
Anyways...In before the lock!
Fortunately, not alot but in the same vain everything, although that stuff is the stuff noone can answer till your dead and nobody comes back from the dead so yer at a stalemate really.
Im happy knowing that I will rot away or been turned into dust as by then I will be dead and wont give two testes what happens to me.
hahaha;
Though nah, not an atheist, just a big meanie.
+1
For the record, I do consider myself an atheist, and in the past I have probably been one of those annoying pushy types. I really try not to be now, because I have realized that it's just as bad as being militantly religious.
And of course, this may sound bleak, because you are alive enough to feel bleak about it. :P
One thing you could look forward to while you are alive is that consciousnesses keeps re-emerging. AKA.. go have sex and make babes. Or not. Meh.
What I am trying to say is that, simply through scientific thinking, on can reach levels of wonder just as jaw dropping and mind boggling, if not more, than say, the bearded old man/zombie on a cross hypothesis (not trying to be disrespectful here, just trying to find words to express my puzzlement when dealing with folks talking about it all in a very literal manner, rather than talking about the symbols) Because sometimes I feel like to some people, it is an 'answer' to then move along. What I think is much more fun, is to not know, and realizing how little we know indeed. Which goes back to what I believe is the cause of the study mentioned by the OP : fear of the unknown.
(obviously I am only talking about the "why/how are we here" side of the coin. To me, "don't hurt thy neighbour" is something completely separate from divine beliefs. More like common sense, than religion.)
[ame]
hehe
I think as long as people retain a sense of humor, it doesn't matter all that much what they believe. It's when people get too serious that I get all.... ehhhmmmm.