Online Identities Versus Real Life: Why Employers should/cannot ask for the other.
polycounter lvl 18
Some employers are asking potential employees for online identities at social sites or forums before hiring. The idea supposedly being to rule out any person that they feel will be detrimental.
First, I would point out, there is no proof psychologically that there is a direct correlation between how a person acts on and offline to equate the same personality between each.
Quick example: http://www-usr.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/showdown.html
So now that excuse is out of the way. Lets really think about what this is about. Your employer being able to not choose you for something they otherwise could not legally ask.
EXAMPLES:
-Your political bias leans in one direction or another contrary to your potential employer
-You have a blog post being a LGBT or against.
-You have something online about a sexual fetish preference.
-You have an announcement of being pregnant.
-You have something that suggest either your income, or credit score.
-You mention something about your martial status.
-You have something about your religion or lack thereof.
The list goes on and on. The point is these are things, that normally cannot be asked during an interview because of privacy and AA laws. By "voluntarily" handing this information over, your divulging these questions they could not ask, and thus can be used disqualify you from a position you otherwise would have gotten. On the other hand, by not "voluntarily" giving it, you put your self in a position of not being hired for they would not have enough on you compared to others whom did agree.
If you accept or even promote this practice, your basically agreeing to a PG identity online. Where you can never truly express one opinion or another for fear of losing your current or future jobs. I would go so far as to say we should ask our congress or parliament to write up legislation to make this practice illegal. We cannot stop employers attempt to search for us. But handing them the information over "voluntarily" in fears of not getting a position, raise, or keeping a job is ludicrous. Its more inline what you would find in a distopia (alah 1984).
On the other hand. Whats to keep you from lying other than being caught? Why not tell employers your "x" identity which is a type a, socially accepted, no strong opinions, easy to swallow. Surely employers must realize this also a possibility?
<start patriotic music>
It has been said in the past, but needs to be reiterated here for some that take these privacy invasion so caviler. Digital Privacy is the single biggest issue for the 21st century with society.
</end patriotic music>
Thank you.
First, I would point out, there is no proof psychologically that there is a direct correlation between how a person acts on and offline to equate the same personality between each.
Quick example: http://www-usr.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/showdown.html
So now that excuse is out of the way. Lets really think about what this is about. Your employer being able to not choose you for something they otherwise could not legally ask.
EXAMPLES:
-Your political bias leans in one direction or another contrary to your potential employer
-You have a blog post being a LGBT or against.
-You have something online about a sexual fetish preference.
-You have an announcement of being pregnant.
-You have something that suggest either your income, or credit score.
-You mention something about your martial status.
-You have something about your religion or lack thereof.
The list goes on and on. The point is these are things, that normally cannot be asked during an interview because of privacy and AA laws. By "voluntarily" handing this information over, your divulging these questions they could not ask, and thus can be used disqualify you from a position you otherwise would have gotten. On the other hand, by not "voluntarily" giving it, you put your self in a position of not being hired for they would not have enough on you compared to others whom did agree.
If you accept or even promote this practice, your basically agreeing to a PG identity online. Where you can never truly express one opinion or another for fear of losing your current or future jobs. I would go so far as to say we should ask our congress or parliament to write up legislation to make this practice illegal. We cannot stop employers attempt to search for us. But handing them the information over "voluntarily" in fears of not getting a position, raise, or keeping a job is ludicrous. Its more inline what you would find in a distopia (alah 1984).
On the other hand. Whats to keep you from lying other than being caught? Why not tell employers your "x" identity which is a type a, socially accepted, no strong opinions, easy to swallow. Surely employers must realize this also a possibility?
<start patriotic music>
It has been said in the past, but needs to be reiterated here for some that take these privacy invasion so caviler. Digital Privacy is the single biggest issue for the 21st century with society.
</end patriotic music>
Thank you.
Replies
As for my online persona, I'm quite different online than I am offline and I would refuse to work for an employer who asked for such things. More people need to be informed about what an employer can legally request for information from you. Should be illegal to even request such information even voluntarily in my opinion.
I think I would mention any company that has asked for illegal information on at least one forum. Mostly so people can know what to expect from certain companies. If they're willing to ask for information that could be used to not hire someone, you have to wonder what other shifty practices they would try to screw employees over.
on one hand, take myself as an example. it wouldn't be a stretch to say i'm disliked here due to my views on certain things. but it's not my views that are the problem, it's the fact that i've had no problem expressing them here, on an online forum. where in real life, i would generally tend to keep my mouth shut about them.
you've essentially got the problem of: some people use the internet as an outlet for certain parts of there personality, the net is somewhat of a tabboo free zone. and it's almost liberating to be able to just express yourself with little or no fear of reprise. to be held accountable for those things in the "real world", takes away that freedom, and means that all you can do is keep it all bottled up inside all the time. which is unhealthy.
then there's the point that, employers need to know they can trust their employees to speak responsably about their company, and not shed a bad light on it. there are a number of things i could say about past employers, but never would. because firstly you can be quoted out of context, and secondly, your job is on the line if you slip up. standard code of conduct with talking about a company is, "this is the number for our PR department, thanks, i have no further comment".
Though it would be a strange request, and not necessarily one I would agree with, I wouldn't really have a problem with my employer knowing my online handles. I really don't see why you would want to rant online anyway about your personal life or why you would be compelled to have some sort of split personality between your online and IRL self. So, I guess I'm neutral
Acting like an arsehole online "because it's the internet" is to me about as valid as using that as an excuse to type without proper grammar or punctuation.
BUT I sometimes let my inner smacktard flag fly a little too high online. I feel a little more free to speak my mind online. I don't say much that I wouldn't say to someones face and I have no problem with my employer potential or current reading what I post online.
I think most employers are looking for any clues as to what kind of person you really are and I think that's in their best interest. Anyone can put on a poker face for a few hours. But if someone's a raving loon online chances are they have a lil-bit-o-that offline too.
Go ahead and dig all you want, kind of lazy and dubious to ask for it. Who's to say people won't set up fake accounts and bath themselves in ultra positive light.
But it really depends on the job. If you're around kids don't be offended if they have to run a background check its the law...
In some cases it can be helpful to have positive online presence.
Interesting video. I liked Cholden. However I should point out he implied most people. Not a few bad apples whom where more likely to perform "evil" acts under the animinty of a uniform and (another key) under authority/permission of a superior. This also dealt with real life situations, where there are real "evil" consequences.
So In short, it has no real bearing on this issue. It is a good video non the less.
Gav.
That being the case.
What is your income? What is your sexual preference? What politicians do you support/oppose? What is your credit score? Do you have a SO or have many partners? Do you have any STDs? What do you think of your boss? What income level are you at? What is your credit score? What is your family life like?
It goes on and on and on. You may be willing to volunteer this stuff, others are not, and should not feel compelled to in order to compete. In other words, you may feel it doesn't effect you personally. I would ask you support it though for those that it would as it does no harm to you (and now them) if such legislation existed.
It does not matter talon. Its a matter of privacy. (See previous post).
Again, even if you personally have nothing to hide (or think you do not), I cannot see why you would not support such a law for the sake of others whom want to keep their anonymity.
I know in fact this identity is linked enough with me that it will pop up especially given the domain name being the same. I knew this when I created this identity. The point I'm trying to convey is that I should not have to volunteer to give other identities that are not immediately apparent to a employer.
What if say you post on a plushie, goth, steampunk sexual fetish board? Should you be giving up those as well? What if you are on a communist, or libertarian board?
Seriously, I really think some are taking this too caviler without thinking through the consequences to freedom of expression the internet has allowed. Say goodbye to meaningful blogs, or things like medialeak, twitters (remember Iran). You can self censor yourself all you want. The point is that is your choice.
Would you post a personal add in the local newspaper with your full name looking for hot, gay sex, and then be surprised when the you can't get a job at the Harley shop? Is it "right"? That isnt really the point, its just how the world works weather we want to be naive and think that everyone is treated equally and HR people shit unicorns or whatever.
Use some common sense here, if you don't want personal information to be public, DONT POST IT ON THE FUCKING INTERNET.
In this age you have to realize that how you present and market yourself on the internet is infact very relevant to becoming employed. Its a quick and easy way to look out for red flags in regards to character.
Now here is a little more realistic example.
Say you're generally a pretty big asshat on polycount, you constantly flame people, and never really provide anything of substance to the community. Are you telling me i shouldn't take that into account when looking to hire you?
That said, I'd tell a potential employer to fuck right off if they said I couldn't work there unless I surrendered usernames and websites I frequent. If they want information about personal stuff, it's tough tiddly for them because they have no right to ask unless it has to do with stuff that's a matter of public record anyway.
And why are people so down on facebook? I never got that. It's become a great way to keep in touch with friends and family. And while I'd never give up my password, I have nothing to hide on my page. Anyone looking at my page would just see back and forth talk with some of my relatives, pictures of me, pictures of my shih tzu, high score comparisons, and the fact that I play a little game called Mafia Wars.
Big deal.
just thought it was funny, cause they were asking not to provided with the information...
I was actually going to answer those questions, but thought I'd be a total prick if I did just to prove my point. I can totally understand your point and, yeah, it's really no one's business what you do in your personal time or whatever.
That being said, a few of the questions you asked me, I am LEGALLY bound to not answer. So, just using recent threads as an example, you shouldn't go on a public forum and talk about the inner workings of your company. when you sign on with most companies, you actually agree to that very thing. Salary, trade secrets...all that jazz. In that case, I think employers should totally be able to probe into your activity and punish you for it. I mean, if I ran a company, I'd be really pissed if I saw one of my employees breaking their NDA on some fly by night operation like Polycount (
Like mentioned before, from Talon...I think, I really don't see why you would feel the need to act any different online than you would face to face...and anything you just freely write online is already public knowledge, so why is that a problem? Recruiters hunt you down the same way. Basically...what Talon said +1
I see your point though, rock on brother.
Gav
If a studio is looking to hire you and catches wind of this thread, for example, they have every right to not offer the job to you if they felt your views compromised their in-house core beliefs (or whatever you want to call it.) I'm not here to debate that invasion of privacy isnt wrong, but if you air out your laundry...you have to be ready for any type of back lash from it. If you get upset over it, it's nobody's fault but your own. I believe in personal accountability regardless if you are talking to a group of people face to face or over a message board. It would suck if one day I didnt get a job because a recruiter found me on the internet somewhere saying something they didnt like....BUT, that's my doing. That's all I'm sayin' man
Asking for PASSWORDS is BEGGING for some jerkwad to use them to sneak into your accounts somewhere and post all kinds of crap.
No, I'm saying they shouldnt ask for your online identities during an interview. I think that's where some of you are getting distracted. This isn't a thread about whether you should post personal information on the internet. Its a thread about companies asking you to volunteer to give this information.
To be honest for the exact question EQ. No, absolutely not. Meet them in person. Then decide. Work and online conversation are two different things. If you can show a psychological paper proving that both identities reflect the same thing Ill eat my stance. However, I believe you wont. Further, your just dealing with text. None of the 5 senses are involved in seeing the other person.
I guess I'm one of the weirdos though that respect the separation. Maybe in part because I have seen it in real life.
Theres no need to be soapboxing about something like this and trying to turn it into something its not, its completly reasonable to want to know how a person acts privately when being considered for a position of import. And beyond that, in this modern age of lawsuits for sneezing too loud, companies want to be able to protect themselves, when we are hired and blasting off publicly in our alteregos, it suddenly matters more because that can be used against the company at which we work, we get colored as a spokesperson for the place we work.
Look at DVD's , every single DVD I buy forces me to wait 20- 30 seconds each time to remind me that the views expressed by the directors and actors are not those of the corporate umbrella under which they work. Personally, I buy dvd's often because I know the director has a rep for being outspoke so I pay extra for the special addition to hear a little more of 'the truth' about how the development process was.
Some directors take extras pretty seriously as a way to help the rest of us catch up with them, like if you watch the extras of Guiermo Del Toro'ss Hellboy2 dvd for instance, he specifically takes the time at the start of the extras to personally take the viewer round the set of the troll alley while he explains the significance of each thing and alludes to more things that we can find out ourselfs if we google and work at it.
I LOVE THAT. Its how people who care, work around the way of the world to reach out still to those that are listening.
The world is just catching up to the modern online age and its probably about time if you cut out all that 'big brother is coming to get us' crap
I'm more of a cock online too btw, I'm not just pointing fingers here, but really you should just own up to what you are really worried about !
I have for instance, had to 'clean up my act' a little online since I started at Epic, we're all aware that we are in effect, public spokespeople for the culture of where we work. Most of us who progress a bit further in our careers have to learn to live with this stuff, it aint perfect, no one is 100% comfortable with it but with all the REAL ISSUES in the world right now, ranting about this is only portraying us as being spoiled and out of touch with the world!
It's like accepting once we start making games professionally instead of within the community, ie outside of our bedrooms, we need to wear pants while we work... its not that big a deal!
I'm taking the piss more than anything else here so try not to take it too indignantly, but seriously, this stuff ain't really such a big deal, its just the way of the world, the lawyers run things you know, this is just a symptom of companies trying to protect themselves more against that trend in an increasingly PC world culture.
It's also connected to what happens during the discovery stage of a lawsuit, during this stage of a lawsuit companies basically have to delcare everything everyone has ever said in any alter ego who are connected to the company being sued so that the legal folks can discern what might have been pertinent to the lawsuit.
Oh yes... its fun stuff.
If a potential employer has a problem with my views, opinions, or way I carry myself online then that door probably swings both ways and I probably would not like to be working for them just as much as they wouldn't want to have me working for them. That saves both of us from a lot of potential trouble and grief down the road.
The internet is a public forum anything said here is "out there" not a private conversation and should be treated as such.
I understand the concerns about privacy but it's simply impossible to make anything private online so if you don't want something to be public knowledge don't go about saying it online.
If HR people are going to make a real effort to dig for information about you then they WILL find it. How would you prove that they used that information to determine weather to hire you or not anyway? All they would need to say is they found a more qualified candidate for the position you were applying for.
If you really must be anonymous use a handle that can't be tied to you and connect to the internet though a proxy that hides your IP address that's probably the best you can do. Then if you need to divulge any online aliases in the future just don't give the anonymous one out.
So maybe some employer reads that quote and thinks "He doesn't care about privacy. I wouldn't want him to be in my company, privy to the secrets of my business and my products." and decides not to hire you... because of some stupid little comment that you threw out here thinking you were making the complete opposite point.
Wasn't the impression you thought you were giving off, was it? Wonder how many other posts you've made that fall into the same category. I wonder if 10 years from now you're going to still be totally comfortable with every single innocent little comment you put up on in internet. I wonder if you would be annoyed to find out you lost a great job opportunity because some HR director misinterpreted one of them.
Ever mentioned alcohol? You're not responsible.
Ever criticized a political candidate? You don't respect authority.
Ever laughed at a picture of a cat? You aren't serious enough.
Ever commented on privacy issues? You're not trustworthy.
Privacy is easy to undervalue and text is easy to misinterpret. Especially in today's job market, the slightest indication that you may have ever done anything even slightly undesirable means you probably aren't getting hired. You might think "Well then I don't want to work there" but you probably aren't working with the HR lackeys, now are you?
Forget the slippery slopes and idealistic visions of society: Not giving out your online handles is just good business sense.
I frequent Warren Ellis' site a lot, on his whitechapel board he routinely starts threads where everyone reintroduces themselves and shows pictures, he is a strong advocate also for everyone using a picture of their face as their avatar also.
The reasoning being that it helps to remind people that we are talking to other 'people' and the more of us that remember that the less we are likely to act like asshats under the umbrella of anonymity.
I thought that was a good point and I took it to heart because I don't want to see the push of the 'far right', toward policing the internet gain momentum because we can't all learn to adapt to the online thing and grow up a little ourselves.
And yeah, if we don't want people to know things about us, we can choose not to say things that reveal that side of our character
Unless we're all drunk at a party, then we all agree to not remember the insulting things we said at that party to each other... ok ?
Dude, what are you talking about? I already know that this identity will be used. And yes, I can be a nuisance (sometimes). So what? To be honest, I'm not sure I would want to work at a company where they took so much grain from online versus what the person does (action over words basically). Him without sin throw the first stone and what not. Once again, I'm speaking about if they ask (which if you see the thread this originally referenced) what your online identities are during the interview process.
Thats breaking into a larger issue where they can discover things to not hire you like sexual preferences, political stance, etc. Things that normally would be illegal to ask. If again they are asking for all your identities for forums. Otherwise, is someone is silly enough to make their information available that shouldn't be in a easy enough fashion their real identities can be attached. I have no sympathy.
Edit: Better though while you have my mind on it. Not let this reflect one way or another for the company.
But maybe I can get points among the liberal crowd here for donating to an anti-war Republican who was against the war from the beginning and who has continued to vote against funding it every year? brownie for those who know...
Has anyone heard of stories where political affiliation prevents someone from getting a job? I'd think that should be respected like discrimination laws. But I suppose HR can do whatever they want without anyone on the outside knowing.
2nd, people are going to find out stuff about us regardless, they have already for years, often its hearsay. Honestly, my feeling is that if I'm hung for who I am, rather than who someone else suspects I am, well thats preferable to me.
You keep talking about sexual preference, poltical stance etc, frankly if a place I was interviewing at found out that I was an athiest and didn't want to hire me because they strongly beleived only christians should work with them ( and I know of a place thats rejected someone because of this... incredibly).... then great, I probably would not want to work there and better I find out about this before I sell my house and move family.
I think I might feel the same way if I were gay and a studio was uncomfortable with that, or if somewhere only wanted to hire republicans while I'm more liberal, I mean why would I want to work at a place like that?
Folk keep painting this hypothetical where this proposition results in us getting screwed out of a job for stuff thats not relevant to our ability to do the job. I think that the hypothetical situation would protect us from ending up working at a place where retarded types of thinking are prevalent.
But on this side of the coin I wouldn't mind working with you flaming liberals at Epic at all.
EDIT: btw many on the far left want to police the internet too.
Also Junkie, I don't really care whether people are Lib, Rep or Green, what would turn me off was that a place thought that stuff DID actually make a difference to our ability to do the job.
+1
Now we have people who have put up their crazy lifestyles on myspace and facebook. Those people are now shocked that the things that they've put up for the whole world to see are being used against them in the job selection process. It's like wearing a t-shirt with some crazy personal, social, or political statement printed dead center right on it to a job interview. Obviously they won't want to hire someone who will have a negative impact on the workplace. I think people have the freedom to express what they want on the internet but they should also except all the consequences that come with doing that.
I don't think anyone in this world is perfect and I don't think HR people will believe any of their job applicants are either. So even given knowledge of what people say online I think they will use their judgment based on the context of the forums, threads, or posts they read.
@oXYnary:
I think HR asking for online identities for work related forums is reasonable, but passwords is definitely going over the line. The odds are those HR people are going to search you out and find you weather you give them those identities or not, so it's just a matter of making it easier for them to look you up.
If you really wan't to keep some privacy just use a handle that's not identifiable and don't give it out in an interview. Like you said if people are stupid enough to give away their online IDs to sensitive forums well then they deserve what they get, and you don't strike me as stupid enough, so really what's the big deal here?.
@Kevin Johnstone:
You're actually one of the reasons I chose to use my own name. You Gav, Adam, and others that have used their own names. I used to post here under "midorisabato" but I didn't want people mistaking me for a girl lol.
#1 for landing a job seems to be having a awesome portfolio, with a close second being easy to work with. I think having some name recognition can't hurt in this day and age when hundreds or thousands of hopefuls are applying at studios. That one second when your name is recognized might be the difference between being passed over or being given more consideration.
I have no problem giving out my forum names if someone asks in an interview - and they have.
oxy, i'm confused by the example you linked. It seems to be discussing the difference between an online relationship and an "in-person" relationship, and wether one is inherently better than the other. It doesn't really address anything being discussed - or did I miss something?
polycount, specifically, might be in the gray area, due to all the professional hooks people have in them, as KJ pointed out. We all know he works for epic and in a way he kind of does represent them to a degree in our minds, even though he isn't issuing press releases or giving official statements.
But my Facebook account, as an example, is soley a personal (not as in private, but as in not professional) venue. I do not, nor will I ever, represent my professional self there. I don't see how anything there is a basis for judging my performance as an employee, or even my impact on an office enviroment.
I'm probably just confused from readin to many posts, but it just seems like there's an assumption that there shouldnt be a difference between how you conduct yourself around close friends and family, and how you conduct yourself in a work environment(what ever that may be), when it makes perfect sense that there would be such a difference.
It's like inviting the boss over for dinner. He's not stupid enough to think that dinner happens like that every night is he?
Of course, edgy game industry professionals are way cooler than many classical artists and writers ever were in person, but hopefully a potential employer would be hiring myself based on something more important than being socially stylish.
I like the way whipSwitch differentiates it. Personal, professional... yes, this forum is a grey area. We can make friends and generally fool around here, and we can also build professional connections and learn from one another. "Happy birthday" threads right next to "congrats on the job" threads. Polycount might just be a bit more lovey-dovey (in its toothy way) than some other online forums. And in the same way, more professionally relevant.
a complete protection of privacy during the hiring process would be impossible to nail anyway, on or off line. You check a cv, and you see that they worked at the same place and at the same time as someone else you currently work with. Are you not supposed to ask what they were like, personally and professionally? True, it'd be unprofessional and unnecessary and generally twattish to directly ask about religious or political affiliations or anything like that ... but how do you protect against "John? Yeah i know john. Quite a good artist. Ghastly little Tory boy though, kept a picture of Margaret Thatcher on his desk". It's the real world we're dealing with here, not some grim HR spreadsheet. It's a world of conversations and anecdotes and insults and little-known associations.
Why would any company trust someone who would give out passwords for a job opportunity?
do they even know what security means?
Offline persona obviously influences online persona to a degree.
Example;
In online forums (aside from this one) I am a complete asshole.
Why? Because it provides me something to do until i have something better to do in real life.
Anyone who takes what happens on and stays on the internet seriously is a fool. If something bad from the internet leaks over into their life (personal information being stolen, and used to harass) then there is merit in their anger.
Basically, the internet is serious business, rite guise?
As far as employment goes, they may as well just seize your personal journal and use it to fuck you out of a job, because it's the same basic concept. Invasion of privacy. (although nothing on the internet is truly private, it should be treated as such when considering hiring a person)
"Sorry, but I've signed an NDA precluding me from discussing whether or not
I may have any other online identities"
He was a dreadful little twat of a man anyway, so I just smiled politely and just mentioned that I was n't in the hitler youth or anything.
Some people like me a lot more after meeting me in person, some not so much. Ser
It's not that they were asking for usernames - it's that they were asking for PASSWORDS.
yeah that makes me look pretty bad. What if I'm talking to my best friend and he knows I'm joking around? still looks bad
just making a point that it's very easy to take things out of context online, especially if you just glance over things. This is the exact same reason I keep a special username for the midget porn.
joke! that was a joke potential employers! don't ask for my special username too! *sobs*