Game Dev Schools - What would you change?
polycounter lvl 18
Hey all, I just wanted to start a quick discussion on what the people of polycount would change about current Game Development schools, if you had the opportunity too.
I know for a lot of you, these school seem like a waste of time and money and I can't say I disagree, but I would rather focus on what you would change instead of focusing on how these schools suck (if we can).
Collecting this info for a friend of mine, so any and all opinions are welcomed, and it may benefit future artists in the making.
So instead of ending the post like this, I thought I would quickly chime in and say what I think should at least be worked on from my own experience as a student.
Considering how specialized the industry is now-a-days, and how wide spread these courses are with their work, do you think it would be a better idea to start breaking some of these courses up into smaller, more focused classes? Giving the student a choice. Instead of spending time on many activities, he or she could be spending time on a select few.
I don't really know how beneficial that would be in the long run, not to mention how cost efficient that would be for schools (having so many classes) but that has been a thought of mine for awhile.
Hopefully everyone can take a quick minute from their schedule to chime in, very interested to read what you all think.
Thanks again.
I know for a lot of you, these school seem like a waste of time and money and I can't say I disagree, but I would rather focus on what you would change instead of focusing on how these schools suck (if we can).
Collecting this info for a friend of mine, so any and all opinions are welcomed, and it may benefit future artists in the making.
So instead of ending the post like this, I thought I would quickly chime in and say what I think should at least be worked on from my own experience as a student.
Considering how specialized the industry is now-a-days, and how wide spread these courses are with their work, do you think it would be a better idea to start breaking some of these courses up into smaller, more focused classes? Giving the student a choice. Instead of spending time on many activities, he or she could be spending time on a select few.
I don't really know how beneficial that would be in the long run, not to mention how cost efficient that would be for schools (having so many classes) but that has been a thought of mine for awhile.
Hopefully everyone can take a quick minute from their schedule to chime in, very interested to read what you all think.
Thanks again.
Replies
...I really don't know WHAT to say here. Except maybe make them lots cheaper so us old farts can learn new tricks?
From what I've seen most game dev schools are "for profit" schools like AI and lets just about anybody in that's willing to pay.
Second I would say to make them much more demanding in curriculum. Toward the end of my degree it got tougher, but in the middle it was just really slow paced and it could have and should have moved much faster and should have been teaching us more techniques along the way. My school didn't even touch trying to teach high poly modeling until like the last 6 months. Knowing how to do high poly subdiv modeling is crucial.
Make them cheaper. I only borroed 50G for my whole school experience but that's because I'm a veteran and I signed up and locked in my tuition about a year and a half in advance of attending. Most guys i know borrowed at least 75grand up to 100. Unbelievable!
Be more critical of student work. Stop babying the students. Create a polycount-like atmosphere in the classroom.
OR
dont go to college and beceome a polycount member and don't be annoying or sucky at art.
Id go as far as to merge classes/have more that follow on from another, ie sculpting class which leads into zbrush. concept/drawing class that leads into a modeling class. or for basic learning classes, everyone tries to model the same thing(alot of the time it was pick a simple object instead of being assigned one), so people could learn off each other and you could have a proper look at how good you are in relation to others.
More classes that relate the whole experience together rather than the sort of random jumble it is now.
teamwork too, so you get the feel that you are really in a production environment, having to rely on others and also being relied upon
I've not really looked much into what is offered for 3d and how its relevant if you wanted to go into games after it?
but yeah, ill go with pope on a lot of things there... as is my previous course is more of a playground for people who "like" games, and thinks thats where theyre suited to when the majority draw as a hobby and dont know squat about the technical side of things. Raising the entry bar would be a good way to filter out the people who are motivated to do something about it and not.
yeah that wasn't it.
In my opinion any given game course, be it programming or art related, should be handled like a tradeschool, or more specifically like a tradesman apprenticeship. Specifically focusing on skills and results with a coating of theory on top or where its needed to create better skills. Here's my reasoning:
If you can produce production quality goods you can get a job. Once you get that job the theory and or secondary skills can be picked up on an as needed basis.
For example If I were to get into a studio as a junior programmer, or a tools programmer, or a technical artist, the chances of me needing to run the project using MS project and all the handy project management theory thats been in this course are about 0%.
Also if I get any of those positions the chances of me needing to write a game pitch document for the publisher are about 0%. The chances of me needing to write solid code, and create useful things that support the project from day 1 are 100%.
Code snippets are not enough, theory is not enough. Working applications or modifications are all that matters. The proof is in the pudding as they say.
To sum up: If I ever do anything more in school toward games, I'm going to the Guildhall.
I don't expect professors to teach like teachers should in say high school, I do expect professors to know enough about their profession so they can answer student's questions and put them on the correct path...
I don't think it's to much to ask to have a professor that knows how to texture things properly for game art and expect his or her students to be able to do this to pass the freaking class. Diddo for modeling and animation. So there should be a series of foundation classes the teach you the basics then the students at their senior year have the option to specialize on what they want to do. To graduate they need to have a portfolio that could land them a job. Schools should know the local game companies in the area, and have ties with them. I don't think it's too much to ask... In most schools you don't even get a class that make you texture things like you would at a game company, hell you are lucky if you have a professor that shows you how to use the 3d program. Oh yeah this one is a biggie, access to the computer labs outside of class time, kind of important to learn the software. It's not really realistic for a student to be able to learn a 3d program if they can't use it, and three hours of class time isn't enough time to learn how to use the software, and do the assignments the professor wants you to do to pass the class. When I went to school most students worked, so being able to go to the computer lab after you get out of work is important. If the school doesn't allow that then the least they can do is give them students loans that cover the cost of buying a computer and software so they can do this on their own time, but of course they can't allow that either, it would make sense.
All schools must know that polycount exist and demand that students post their work here in order to graduate.
Valias I had that discussion with a professor once, he said go to a trade school. But I'm with you, there is so much emphasis put on being original in schools that they don't bother teaching anything.... How about first let me learn and develop my skills so I can make what's already in my head as best as I can...
I currently (sort of) go to Devry online for Game and Simulations Programming. I would like to someday become a Technical Artist (hence why I am here doing art). Anyway, I have about 6 months worth of classes left and I cannot get any funds to finish. I know it's not their fault, but they are absolutely NO help at all.
Also, I have been programming since I was about 13, so I must say the classes have been pretty easy. I'm really not bragging here because I am far from being 'pro' but I have yet to learn anything in classes that I do not know already. That kind of scares me. Also, a lot of people are having issues with the classes and the professors are less than helpful. I find myself helping the students more than the professors do (their are other students just like me too).
Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is, it seems like all this school is doing is teaching you the basics (and I mean very basics) and I would be very leery of hiring any programmer from this school (hate to say it but its true).
Given the german system the university also needed to accredit the course at the federal secretary for education and science. It still has some weaknesses but seeing what some people post here it already does alot of things right.
We work on alot of different aspects of Game Creation (Informatics in Processing, C++ and ActionScript; Game Design theory; Dramaturgy and Movie creation; Media Culture and Ethics; Modelling, Animation and Lighting (Practical and Theory); User Interface Creation and Usability Work; General Art and Design Lectures; Physics and Math and Technology Lectures; Project Courses; Excursions to industry events and regular lectures from industry professionals (like EA Phenomics COO last monday)).
In theory that's alot of cool stuff and it really rocks - when it comes to realisation it's still cool (esp. game design and programming with the crytek guys, creating games with CE2) but there are a lot of things that ain't so perfect. Organization is one of these things that don't seem to work in our department of university, the professor who's doing modelling lessons tried teaching box modelling and did a "hand", ending in a lot of 11-gons splitted and mistriangulated or created "a cool head" by creating a shape of the heads profile and edge-extruding it until he had 65 triangles meet at what would have been the ear-hole, which was the point when I returned to my online tutorials.
So: The teaching of the craft-skills really depend a lot on the teacher/professor (e.g. C++ and Processing Lectures are rocksorz, Maya lessons basically suck most of the time) and one important step to raise the niveau there would be better art tests/craft tests for both students and professors.
And yeah, higher standards for passing classes. A person shouldn't be allowed to graduate if their skill level isn't at least near the bare minimum to get a job. They also should not pass classes with complete garbage. This will most likely never happen because schools(even public schools) aren't in the business of failing people.
I dont like to post bad stuff anymore Whoever read the last post knows what I said so whatever.
I would change it as followed.
make the schools nor more then 1-2 year
prior art skills are REQUIRED if your getting into a profession that requires art (game development etc)
if not pre-requists of a portfolio OR previous FINE ART schools are required.
"you can learn technology in 1 year, but it will take you a minimum of 10 years to even get the understanding of art down in the same way"
- No crossover with other art curricula outside the foundation courses like life drawing or art history. I was finishing college just as "game art" was starting to become the in thing for schools to offer, so my official major was "visual communication", which included 3d modeling and animation at one school and didn't at the next. This meant that I was taking a course in Lightwave with people who wanted to end uo doing everything from graphic design to photography. That doesn't work for anyone involved.
- Teach what's current. When I was in school, every instructor I had was teaching the age old fallacy that "Photoshop is for photo-manipulation and not text or illustration. Illustrator is for text and illustration, because it's vector, and that's what you need because it can scale". That wasn't in a game art course, obviously, but it doesn't apply in graphic design or illustration anymore either. But that's what they'd been teaching since the time when it was true and most of the instructors didn't understand the software enough to recognize when that changed. I had graphic design classes that required us to do marker comps with painted text on acetate sheets too, because "the computer is only a finishing tool". A lot of these instructors otherwise knew their shit too, and had lots of experience, but their experience was from ages ago, before they started teaching.
- Have an industry professional review the material before the curriculum is approved. With 50 grand from each student like these places charge, they can afford to hire a currently employed TD or art lead to take 30 minutes once a year and point out any glaring mistakes in what's going to be taught. It would solve stupid issues like professors telling everyone that their low poly models should always be in quads, or that NURBS is the only proper way to do organic modeling.
- No "game design" classes. Making students buy books that attempt to explain how to write a design document and then writing a 3 page one for class is a waste of everyone's time and money. They might as well teach unicorn breeding fundamentals.
- No programming for art majors (unless it's an elective or something). It's like learning brain surgery to help you be a rocket scientist. I know Ai and UAT do this, and Collins was just starting a program that did it too around when I graduated. Sure, it's nice to have a basic understanding of what the coders are doing, but 2 semesters of C++ is too much for that and not enough to be a programmer.
- Do the allumni a favor and don't advertise on MySpace about how QUICK and EASY it is to get a degree from the school.
- Lower tuition. Most of that money goes straight up the corporate ladder into the owners and shareholders' pockets anyway. If it's going to cost that much, at least put it into the education or the equipment. For the amount I went in debt for the classes I took, I could have bought my own room full of computers and software. So how is hundreds times that amount not enough to put a decent course together? (But that's the problem with money. It's the rich people who decide what to do with it, and their priority is, invariably, getting more money from people with less money.)
- Encourage, or at least allow, specialization in one area. Making students do x environments and x characters as a portfolio requirement (or worse yet, something from each semester or each course and making the portfolio a fluffy design assignment) is asking for mediocrity.
- Internships. Man, that would have been great.
Thanks
I dont think theres much room for conceptdesign and things to really fit into a "games design" course, however that being said I think throwing out Life drawing classes is a bit silly. Theyre a valuable thing all the same, especially to wannabe character artists.
But in turn, do you not think the talent these schools will churn out may start to become better then hobbyists that worked their way up ? Therefore creating a bigger talent pool for the industry to grab from (Don't know if thats a good thing or bad thing though... ).
If I could go back in time i would try live a little closer to school, free drinks would have been awesome... each student should have their own refrigorator.
it wasnt required to post work here to graduate but it was encouraged...
I can't believe there are so many guys willing to lay down cash like that...sheesh - these places must be making a fortune!
So that's my first complaint, complaint number two...
Stop with the commercials and bullshit about how game degree = jobs. I graduated with a 4.0 gpa did it make a difference, was I ready to get a job in the games industry? NO! The game schools are indeed a business who's main concern is recruiting more students, making the school as expensive as they can get away with, holding on to these students for a while and spitting them out when they can get the next batch of students. If a game art school stayed small, and localized, and truly cared about finding the right kind of students they could be extremely successful with the number that find game industry positions. Be honest with the students, and know what you are talking about first; and they will certainly respect you and give you recommendations later.
What i really like on that school are the projects
Our school makes milestones when they want to see progression. If the project sucks at the end of a semester, it will be kicked and the team have to do another project or join other teams. Teachers: like i said we have teachers from everywhere. If we have project or art review with one of them they say what they think. When its shit or its great.
BUT the lessons arent very usefull... for me. I think for other they are usefull. I hear often " that was to fast" "it doesnt work" "WHAAAAT??" in topics i allready know. What i dont like is that digital sculpting is a bit late. But we have traditional art/sculpting early. High Poly SubD modelling... öhm i think i didnt see that at a lesson. Cant remember im self and polycount taught
At the end i think it should be cheaper. But no they make it more expensive for the new students -.-
I've probably talked way too much on this subject, but it does make me a bit upset with how much they're charging students. 75-100 grand is just insanity. You have this warped perception that paying it back once you graduate will be cake because you will have a degree in hand and job offers lining up out the door for you. That was THE biggest rude awakening I have ever had in my life. A truly very humbling experience.
i graduated from ai san diego, and was already working in the industry 9 months before i even graduated. it's really all about who you are as a student and if you have the motivation to self teach above and beyond the curriculum. there are countless threads on that statement alone here on PC
Bingo... this NEEDS to be driven into students heads, and I'm not seeing to much of that myself.
I agree with Mule as well... but I think one of the main issues (maybe) is actually getting industry folks interested in teaching snotty nosed college / Uni punks the hows and whys of the industry. What could be some of the solutions to gain more interest?
Granted there are workshops, but they are too far spread, and location is another big issue.
Great points everyone!
higher admission standards, sure.
filtering out people who cant draw? fuck that
I cant draw for shit, I'll animate the fuck out of a good "omgz nextgenz lulz"-character modeler any day of the ramadan!
I couldnt get into a lot of schools because what I draw looks like it was drawn using my third leg, but when I got into a school...oh lawd, people who can draw sure had (have?) no idea of what gamedev or 3d modeling is.
so, filtering people by their special skill would be preferred. than to assume that if you want to do 3d stuff, you need to be able to draw. thats just silly
also,
stop all these "3d animation school", which have little to N O T H I N G to do with animation!
animation != modeling
next!
A lot of courses here at AILA are just a waste. You have those teachers who will push you higher and higher and get you up to industry standards, and that's invaluable. But you also have those teachers that are pretty good at what they do, but you essentially waste 3 months of your life learning something you could have figured out yourself (easily at that) online in a weeks time.
I would cut down on the amount of bullshit classes that don't really improve your skills as an artist in any way. It's just a sad way to steal peoples money.
One of the most valuable lessons I learned a long time ago is that you will only get out of something (school) what you put in. If you're not putting in the effort to figure stuff out on your own or ask for help in order to reach the standard that is expected in this industry, then you're going to have a hard, hard time finding a good job. This is a field where degrees and grades don't mean a thing and you're only worth as much as your portfolio.
That's all I can really add to this conversation, you guys have done a great job covering a lot of other things that are really screwed up about Game Developement schools. Especially the tuition fees ...ugh.
Fact is, colleges and unis are becoming redundant. The internet is the place to learn now, with its countless tutorials and unlimited teachers. A degree is great for getting into another country, but that's pretty much it. I've a BA in product design and its worth feck all. I was doing an honours in digital media and quit half way though because it was a waste of time, despite ppl telling me I was crazy. They just don't realise how difficult it is to break into the games industry as an artist. It takes years of hard work, just to break in now you have to almost reach mastery, that's about 10,000 hours of work. I've been spending the past 5 months working away on my portfolio, because the portfolio is king and hard work is the only way to get a job.
www.kelly3d.com
Lecturers who actually work in the industry - I don't see how they couldn't. Where I went to uni, everyone who taught was in their respective industrys and did pro work like that every week, to keep relevant. It surprises me that some in games aren't working in the relevant fields outside of teaching?
Definitely more Art theory behind the teaching as well as the tech. I've seen some real nasty game-school stuff and it ties in with what's been said before - to be a game artist it's best to be an artist first, and then a fan of games, not the other way around. If you know the theory behind it all then making good art will just be a case of learning the tech, which is a less fearsome task.