super epic art tests
polycounter lvl 18
I've noticed a few art tests that are massive in scale. Has anyone else noticed this? If so, whats your opinion on the subject?
it seems to me that asking someone, who already has a portfolio, and is looking for jobs in multiple places, to drop everything and do an art test for your company that consists of 4 or 5 world objects in a massive scene, is not only completely ridiculous and unnecessary, but also insensitive to that person's schedule and private life on a level that is completely insulting and disrespectful. I've seen some BIG art tests man.
I mean honestly, if I was looking to hire someone, I'd be tempted to give him the type of art tests that I've seen JUST to see weather or not he has the self respect to tell me to go fuck myself.
Thoughts?
it seems to me that asking someone, who already has a portfolio, and is looking for jobs in multiple places, to drop everything and do an art test for your company that consists of 4 or 5 world objects in a massive scene, is not only completely ridiculous and unnecessary, but also insensitive to that person's schedule and private life on a level that is completely insulting and disrespectful. I've seen some BIG art tests man.
I mean honestly, if I was looking to hire someone, I'd be tempted to give him the type of art tests that I've seen JUST to see weather or not he has the self respect to tell me to go fuck myself.
Thoughts?
Replies
if i really wanted a job at a certain company, then i wouldnt mind doing a bit art test for them that takes precedence over other things.
but if i was just searching around and found a few companies that were hiring and i wasnt super stoked to work for them (one would be just as good as the other) then i wouldnt bother doing the giant art test.
so it all depends on wether or not youre targeting a specific company you would love to work at or just picking a job from a list of so-so companies.
/runs away
if it were mythic, i'd laugh at them, if it were Epic, i'd get on it.
These companies/art directors that give out tests that are more than a weeks worth of full time work need to jump the down off their high horses. All those tests show is that the company or AD is arrogant and feels that the applicant's time is worthless.
that's mean
I could go on about other test's I worked my ass off on, and never even received a reply back at all. If you have to hand out an Art test and aren't the best, then at least send me a thank you email. Serious lack of integrity with some of these places...
/end rant
Well put, Mr. Director.
interesting.
Perhapppppsss it's a matter of values. If they're lookin for someone who is insanely dedicated and wants to work in an environment that challenges them, then I suppose that's a good fit.
personally.. bleeahh. I'd sooner die... and I wonder if you CAN get such an expectant leader who isn't an asshole, and is just looking for people as committed as he is. makes me wonder if that'd be a healthy work/life balance psychology, as well...
amen. This is the type of shit that I'm talking about. What disrespectful bullshit.
80% of the people at Midway wouldn't have been able to successfully complete the test to he so called standards that were brought up.
I haven't done an art test in quite some time. I actually got turned off by a few places because they wanted me to do a test but it comes down to what you want in the end I suppose.
The sheer lack of respect for what artists do really bothers me about this industry. I work with a great programmer who said it best....
"The most ingenious engine technology isn't worth a dime if all it does is render teapots. I'll make the tech, you make humanity love it."
and I gave this very same advice to a journalist once, and I think it applies to any AD who wants good people:
"If You want to work quality people that you can depend on, entrench yourself in the mud with as many as you can. You'll see whose a miner and whose a worm".
so says the man who won unearthly challenge
besides why would a company want to hire someone who applies and doesnt care if they really get the job there because they have applied to 20 other studios. also good especially for college grads to test them on realworld production timelines, you dont get an entire semester to make an environment in the real world :P
if you look at it from the companies perspective, ideally you would want to hire people who have a genuine enthusiasm for your studio......its these people who will be making you rich
I agree there are some excessive tests out there but chances are anyone who busts their ass on it (and does it well) will get the job, thats what happened to me anyways. 5 days of 12-15 hour days, granted I had very little to show beforehand but hey it got me the job at 20 years old without having to go to college, so in my case it was certainly worth it.
either way its debateable and comes down to a case by case situation. there will always be the line of excessive expectations, and i guess its up to the artist to make the judgement call.
Especially if you as the AD happen to be feeling the pressure from the suits above and are slightly wary of your own position,the last thing you want to do is be hiring people who aren't what they seem on the tin,or are just complete screw ups.
Agreed though with the initial point,I believe how good someone is and what they can achieve in a set-time can be shown in a simple art test with particular limitations and possibly a loose concept art which can be interpreted in different ways.
Shouldn't need to do wacking great art test to prove myself.....or why the hell do I have a portfolio in the first place?
As for the questions about a persons enthusiasm,that should come across in the interview,if they are enthusiastic about working for you they will know about you,know what projects you have done etc.....if they have one eye on the application they sent to the studio next door then they won't. If you can't tell how enthusiastic,what a person is like or how good they actually are after going through there folio with them...you properly shouldn't even be in the position to hiring.
John
I feel art tests are great for new people breaking into the industry. Yet should be a requirement so new talent that hasn't gotten an opportunity before for a real job. Would be able to get the chance to prove themselves worthy and qualified for that job.
Some companies I see do have a huge ego about themselves due to huge success or past failures.
But for those who have worked in the industry already, and have shipped 1 or 3 titles as a key part. I see no need to provide an art-test to those (That's if I was a company owner, ect). Because it's obvious that, that individual has put his/her time into that project with that previous companies team.
I personally have not obtained an industry job yet, and still am applying to as many companies that I can see myself as a fit to. It's just a shame I cannot be given a test these days to show myself worthy to what that company may be working on, or did previously.
I feel it was totally my fault. I mean, they asked a lot, but I had enough time if I really wanted it bad enough and worked very hard, all day, every day. But I got sick. I had technical & creative problems. I should have persevered through them, rather than accepting them as an excuse for failure.
I think Art Tests, provided they aren't just insane, are a great metric of how the employee will work under hard deadlines, stress, etc. Me personally, I folded like a house of cards this time, because I got so sick. Hard to model 2+ full next gen characters in a under a week when you're also fighting a bout of Mexican Dysentery.
And this isnt to sound bitter what so ever, but I find it pretty unfair to meet certain expectations when a studio cant even meet those expectations....like Jesse pointed out. We could debate that all day and find reasons for a studio's reasoning behind that...but at the end of the day it's shit. Call it what it is.
How big are we talking here? The "biggest" one I've seen are the environment ones from Bizarre, which consist of 2-3 pretty big facades and multiple props.
But on the topic of companies treating applicants like crap, it would be nice if they bothered to send out a reply to confirm they got your application. Even an automated reply would be ok... sort of. Well, better than nothing
I end up feeling very positive about a company that does reply with what looks like a genuine email that they typed up, and very negative for ones that expect you to either do a art test or fill up a huge form and not even send a reply to acknowledge your application (only 2 companies have done that to me
I'll put my hand up and say that yes, I see the arrogance of this but I also understand the logic of it. See, the people we want to hire are the people who are just itching for the chance to work on cool shit just like we ask people to do in the test, they are concepts that we also built internally on Gears or UT.
Epic runs on passion, its not technology that defines us though we are known for that, its passion and without it, this place would roll over and die. So we want to see peoples passion, sometimes you hear people describe what they see as distinctive in a piece as the artists voice, the style that is particular to them when they are expressing themselves while also just doing the work.
Most of us here have worked other places and gone through the struggles most people of experience have, we know the industry demands can instill bad attititudes borne out of people never really getting to experience what happens when everyone pulls together.
The art test, it tests also how people have resolved the issues we all face doing our job and if someone still has some sense of idealist belief in the worth of trying hard to do their best despite the negative side of the biz, well these sort of attitudes shine through and we hire those people.
At least, this is my understanding of why we have such gruelling art test requirements, well that and the fact that the work here tends to be demanding also. Of course, I still very clearly see and understand the arrogance of our stance..... so I won't try to argue you the right and wrong of the thing, I can only try to explain the philosophy of it.
And on the flip side, I've tried to be pretty proactive about making sure artists who do art tests for the companies that i've worked at get paid if we ended up using their assets as well.
I think a large amount of what people are getting upset about, may be that they have unrealistic expectations of what is actually going to be expected of them at said job. If the art test seems insanely huge and complicated, maybe you aren't yet at a level to be able to perform in such an environment? Or maybe they're batshit insane. I'de say you've got about a 50/50 on that one. Really its sort of hard to say without some concrete examples of what people think is excessive. Details on what position, type of game, etc. All of this stuff plays a huge factor.
Im not a character artist so I wouldn't be able to do it anyway but I know next gen artwork takes alot longer than 'traditional' 3d and I don't have 3d experience in games but just from speaking to people,even watching people work in a game production environment, I know that is a ridiculous task that you were given.
So on the basis of scoobs example there,what would you guys do?
Unfortunately im the type of person that knows what I *should* do but very rarely has the courage to carry it through.
So I believe I *should* question the deadline...say that's ridiculous,explain my reasons clearly WHY I think its ridiculous....then attempt to get as much done as possible without killing myself in the process and send them that....this way I cover my ass in case they are trying to make people question the deadline. (As John Warner suggested) and still get the an/interview because they liked whatever I did do.
Id like to think that's what I would do but if I was in the test seat I doubt I would.
John
ahhh dude, we both know the polycounters working at mythic are capable of more, we both know there are engines out there capable of more on an mmo scale.
mythic are lazy when it comes to spending money, and time.
I think its not really safe to automatically assume you couldn't do 2 characters in a week, just because something needs normals/spec/etc. There are various other things to consider, art style, texture resolution, etc.
I mean, are we talking an MMO here, or are we talking a gears or war quality character?
I'm going to go out on a limb as say that its unlikely the test is some sort of mind game, and that they have a very specific time frame that they expect work to be done on their specific project, and that test is geared towards that. Again, too many variables to say what is unrealistic or isnt.
Now, i'm not saying that you shouldn't question specs, or deadlines of an art test. I think you should be upfront and honest with the process, if you feel that it is completely unreasonable to expect something to be finished in the aloted time, it may be a good idea to bring it up. You should be careful about this sort of thing tho, you dont want to look like you dont have any idea what you're doing, especially if you realize once you get into the test that its actually a lot less work than you originally thought it to be.
As an artist it is a very useful skill to be able to addapt to multiple styles and time frames for developing content, every situation is different and you need to be aware and accepting of this fact. Not fearful of it.
As a general note, i would caution anyone against ranting too heavily about art tests on a public forum, the last thing you want to be known for is "That guy who thinks art tests are bullshit". Its a small industry after all.
I recently did an art test where i passed it but they already hired someone so that sucked cause i spent a whole weekend on it and they didn't bother telling me. i wont say the company but that was pretty lame.
I think in general this is a good attitude to have, for people lacking experience, an art test is the best way for a studio to find out if you have what it takes. Now, you've also got to understand that passing an art test in no way guarantees you a job, and in many cases is just the first step.
I think it shows that people who refuse to take a test because they have x number of years experience or whatever are the arrogant ones.
I also like that everyone at Epic has taken those tests and can feel confident that no one "slipped" through because they knew so and so.
Of course, there were a few that never even responded back to me after I sent them the test, even to acknowledge that they were either passing on me, or excited with what I had shown. But oh well.
Your portfolio showed them what you have done and if your getting a test also, then they need a little more pursuing
-Lee
It also doesn't tell you anything about the person, its really impossible to tell what someone will be like to work with just by giving them a test and then have them come in for an interview for a few hours. There really needs to be a better way to find the right people. IMO the process should be something like:
1. get a candidate.
2. examine their portfolio, if just by looking at their portfolio you get a feeling he can do the job then bring them in for an interview, if not don't even bother wasting time with a test, 90% of the time if the person's work doesn't look like what you are looking for the test is likely going to be more of the same.
3. Interview, if it goes well hire the person as an inhouse contractor for maybe 2-3 weeks to see how he is to work with and how he is going to get along with the rest of the team. WARN them that this is a not a permanent situation, no promisses, its a try before you buy thing.
4. At the end of the term have a quick review if it is indeed the right person for the team go ahead and bring them on as a fulltime employee, if not then say sorry you are not what we are looking for and be done.
This way you're not wasting time with all these people making these useless assets that they aren't paid for, and you also get an opportunity to see what they're like to work with. Plus in the 2-3 weeks they get a chance to impress, which IMO is alot better than having someone sit at home and bust ass on some asset that they can't show and won't get anything out of. And you and the team get a much better idea of what that person is all about.
And this kind of approach should go for everybody, not just gunts but leads people too, i think lead people especially because they are so critical to keeping the team together. You definitely want to have an opportunity to say ok this isn't working out and let the person be on their way.
yes please. i would like to see some of these "super epic" art tests just to see how big they are. unless of course the companies prohibit them from being shown publicly.
The "super epic" scale might be blowin out of proportion by now I think.
I wouldn't share these simply because they were given to me and are not public. Also it's not very professional imho.
I did however have to do an art test for another company, where I never heard back from. It was disappointing that I put in all that time and effort without so much as confirmation that they even received it.
I wasn't too disheartened, I just took it as my resulting model wasn't up to standard and knew I had to do better next time.
I would gladly do an art test for any studio that I was interested in working for. I would a month long art test for Epic Games or id Software if it meant getting a job there!
Art tests should have some amount of bulk to them. It's like putting the icing on the cake of your portfolio - and if it's just something small, something trivial you may have already done before, it will provide no further indication of your skill level, and the test may as well have not been issued in the first place. I mean, even if it takes you two weeks in the evenings on account of already working another job, what is that in comparison to the potential of a successful career lasting however many years at the company that issued it? And if they don't hire you, you have at least gained experience as an artist.
a thread i started on publically available art tests for the most part these are not super epic art tests in fact they seem for the most part to be a good way to gauge the skill and speed of the applicant.
I can only imagine that these SUPER EPIC tests would be for the cream of the GD community i.e, EPIC, Blizzard, Valve et al, and gauge not only skill but dedication/passion of the applicant.
Although there are probably more than a few companies that have appropriated that style of art test (whether or not its representative of the kind of workload/quality is another thing) for their own hiring process(probably justifying it as industry standard).
Not saying its a bad thing to have epic art tests but hopefully the people designing these art tests put some thought into the appropriateness of the test for their companies needs.
This may work for someone who is unemployed or looking for their first shot in the industry, but I know for me personally, I am not going to give up a fulltime position with benefits for a potentially temporary contract position. I am pretty sure anyone with a family to consider would probably say the same thing; job security goes a long ways when you have the welfare of little ones at home to consider and not just your own personal happiness and career advancement.
Oh well, everyone's entitled to their opinion, can't say I agree with you.
i guess i should make a second ligitimate post toward the thread though, so:
Rawkstar and AstroZombie both raise good points.
Rawkstar is right, an art test tells you very little about a person, and less about their technical ability than you'll get from just looking through their portfolio. not to mention, the candidate will only really have time to execute an art test to the best of their ability if they aren't already in full time work.
AstroZombies point carries a hell of a lot of weight with me, i'm now living with my girlfriend and her 3 kids, i have a family to worry about, and i wouldn't give up my current job, to work as an in house contractor for a 6 figure salery without guaranty of employment afterward. i might be the perfect person for your business, but you'll never know that, because i don't even want to put myself in that position.
That said the way the economy, industry, job market is now I think that it's the applicant that is getting taxed a little harder. Companies are expecting more for the same price (free) because there are so many more people to choose from. It's unfortunate but it's not going to stay like that forever. So I guess you just have to stomach the giant art test now and wait till next time you're looking to be more selective about the amount of work you'll do for a test.
I've usually done the best on art tests that are 48 hour type tests. They give it to you on Friday and want it back Monday morning.
Also, if I am not local who is going to pay for my trip as well as my living accommodations while I am there taking your in-house art test for 2-3 weeks? Are you going to pay my way home if things don't work out? Maybe write a letter on my behalf to my old boss, asking him to give me my job back?