I am also one of the people not hugely surprised to see this happen. I was kind of expecting DNF to get cancelled, have to say I wasn't actually thinking 3DR would go under at the same time, but in hindsight it kinda makes sense.
I don't know how they can have a title in development for about 13 years and expect to still make a profit at the end.
I feel bad for any employees who are out of a job now, especially those who now have been in the games industry for over a decade with no shipped titles to put on their resum
I'm sure someone will come by and pick up the name, or buy the studio. 3D Realms is a very well established brand, and we'll probably see it resurface with some new management.
Step #1
Get some business school sharks to come and restructure the company.
I too am not surprised, especially with the track record. But, I'm always sad when a company just can't seem to pull it together and put out games and sad to see any more jobs lost and devs out of work.
I am also one of the people not hugely surprised to see this happen. I was kind of expecting DNF to get cancelled, have to say I wasn't actually thinking 3DR would go under at the same time, but in hindsight it kinda makes sense.
I don't know how they can have a title in development for about 13 years and expect to still make a profit at the end.
I feel bad for any employees who are out of a job now, especially those who now have been in the games industry for over a decade with no shipped titles to put on their resum
This is a story I wrote on another site in response to someone wanting me to elaborate more on a “chair story” I had referred to that happened during my time at 3DR. It’s not something I wanted to lose to the shifty waters of the Internet though, so I’m re-posting here. It’s left as is except for some typo cleanups and other minor details. Enjoy.
Note: Unfortunately due to 3D Realms’ website being down, the images will not work. I’ll try to get the originals and host them here but I don’t imagine that’s the first thing on their webmaster’s mind right now so it may take a while.
I’m going to regret writing this and probably get myself into trouble but here it goes…
This all took place at E3 2001. I don’t know who here knows much about what things were like at that E3 but I’ll give a brief breakdown. DNF was being published by Gathering of Developers. They were known for being eccentric as publishers go, but had the best booths at E3 if you could get in. Rather than putting up a booth on the main floor, they rented out the parking lot across from the Staples Center, fenced it in and blocked off visibility. You could only get in if you were on the list, or for certain specified viewing events.
They had a stage with a huge screen behind it, midgets, strippers dressed as schoolgirls, punk and rockabilly bands, etc. Beer and burgers being grilled up by Levelord. The games were demoed in cool 50’s era trailers (not so cool for game demos but hey… they made the lot look cool). This was all affectionately called the GoD lot and it’s where the booth babes from all the *other* booths came to hang out in their off time.
Needless to say there really wasn’t much reason to go anywhere else for those few days.
I’ll use pictures from 3DR’s site to help match up visuals to the story.
So for example this was the line to get into the GoD lot: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e30…g_5125.jpg.html
The Stage: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e301/dsc00092.jpg.html
sCary (Shacknews Steve Gibson) playing around in the middle of the lot: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e30…g_4712.jpg.html
Levelord grilling some burgers: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e30…g_4337.jpg.html
Chicks sucking on popsicles: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e30…g_4406.jpg.html
etc…
Strangely enough it’s hard to find stuff about the actual games being shown there. Dunno if that would have anything to do with why the Gathering isn’t around anymore.
Anyways…
The DNF 2001 trailer was out as everyone knows, and it was doing insanely well. The entire team was jazzed, people seemed to really love it and all anyone kept asking was “When the hell do we get to play this oh god!?!?!”
Before heading out to E3, George and Scott Miller had arranged a meeting between Epic, 3DR, and the people who had worked on Duke 3D but weren’t working on DNF. The intent of this meeting was… you guessed it… how best to handle the future of the Duke franchise. Epic was invited because having Duke around on the Unreal Engine was a constant PR boon for them. So they are almost just as invested in how well Duke does as 3DR (as you will see later). It was a secret meeting (there were actually two meetings, but I’ll get to that later), not even the publisher knew about it (except Mike Wilson… he was operating outside of the Gathering of Developer’s authority). The people there were Scott Miller, George Broussard, Cliffy B, Mark Rein, Tim Sweeney, Levelord, Allen Blum, Keith Schuler, myself, Brandon Reinhart, Mike Wilson, and even Todd Replogle and Ken Silverman made the trip out there.
Interestingly, Cliffy B wore his damn suits: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e30…g_5118.jpg.html
Which I don’t have to tell you was incredibly distracting and made it hard to take his points seriously. But at least we knew when he was raising his hand to speak. Due to the level of “heat” in this meeting we had to have a more formal process for speaking because we’d all just wind up talking over each other if we didn’t.
Brandon, Allen, and Cliffy on the way to the second meeting. Note that they aren’t as happy as in other pictures. There is a reason for this: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e30…g_4867.jpg.html
Don’t forget that this is what we would see when we would look out the rear window of our trailer while having our meetings: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e30…g_4509.jpg.html
The silver trailer behind Scott and George is where it was being held: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e301/dsc00090.jpg.html
Anyways…
Most of us didn’t really know what the meeting was for going into it… and for the guys at 3DR at the time, we thought it was just going to be current 3DR people. Imagine our surprise to walk in and see that group of people sitting there! I’m such a huge Duke 3D fanboy, that I have to admit was a little intimidating being in the same room as pretty much all the core guys that made the game that got me started down the path of a game developer in the first place.
Anyways (for real this time)…
Scott quickly got to the point. Max Payne was going to do gangbusters… and 3DR had some other stuff up their sleeves that would be generating so much revenue for 3DR that they could continue on indefinitely… or at least another 5-10 years… without making a dime on internal development. Scott being the marketing buff he is (and Mark Rein being pretty much the same for Epic), they got this idea for how to generate the biggest story in the history of gaming. DNF being a monster hit is fine, but it wouldn’t make “forever” history. As you can tell from the name and what I’m about to describe, Scott and George apparently had this idea from the very start but weren’t sure they were going to act on it, but there wasn’t any harm in using a name that would play into it. So in order to make “Forever” history there was only one way to do that, and that is to turn it into something completely unprecedented in the industry. Turn it into the sort of thing that will be talked about 100 years from now.
I’m sure you can guess where this is ultimately going.
See in 2001 the jokes about DNF being late and vaporware were already widespread. It had already won the damn Wired vaporware award twice. Here was the funny thing… the attention on the game was actually only getting stronger, not weaker. It was the release of the video and how it was received that put the nail in the coffin. The game just had something that nothing else in the industry had and there wasn’t any way in hell such an opportunity could be missed. The attention had peaks and valleys, but it was looking sustainable.
When Scott and George put this out there, those of us on the DNF team were furious. I felt like I had been told my childhood was just an implanted memory, my parents were really actors, and that my penis was about 50% smaller than I thought it was. What the fuck had we been doing the past 3 years? Everyone else actually seemed to already see this coming though, and took it in stride. Mark and Scott were a force to behold when they would get going on the possibilities. George seemed torn, because he loved the game and wanted to see people enjoying the stuff we had put together for the video, but he also knew this was just not something that anyone else in the industry would have a chance to try again for a very long time, if ever.
Todd and Ken didn’t say much, I think they were wondering why they were there. Levelord thought it would be fun to watch, but other than that had his own stuff going on with Ritual that was really his main focus. Mike Wilson kept cracking jokes, but he was clearly on board.
After they put it all out there, those of us on the team started to come around to what they were aiming for, and by the end of it we were bought in. It would be a lot of fun, we’d be paid well, and it would be a part of history that nothing else we would do would live up to. We didn’t quite know what we were getting into, but that’s why all the other guys were the experienced biz guys and we were young naive developers.
This was me during a break in the first meeting… I was actually wobbly in my legs and really did need to lie down: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e30…g_4841.jpg.html
I don’t think this was actually taken on any of the meeting days, but this is Mike Wilson. Ignore the label on the image… I think Joe was in a hurry: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e30…g_4710.jpg.html
The fateful video that I now wish hadn’t been as good as it was: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e301/dsc00004.jpg.html
Keith and I after the first day… trying to distract ourselves from what we had just learned: http://www.3drealms.com/gallery/e30…g_4860.jpg.html
So about that chair?
The first meeting was really just getting everyone up to speed. We all needed time to absorb it… and what was being proposed. They needed everyone involved to buy off on it because we’d all be working through the years to maintain the plan.
The plan was actually pretty simple… create the longest developed game in history that eventually is one of the greatest games ever made. You have the time to work on it properly (no shit), so given the intelligence and talent of all the people involved, it was a pretty good bet. All 3DR had to do was make money on other stuff. All Epic had to do was open up a wide channel between the two companies. 3DR would serve as a research house for future Epic engine updates, but also give 3DR everything they did as well. The boots on the ground just had to keep the drum beating and keep the image of business as usual going. The truly hard to swallow part of this was some of us had to eventually leave, but we were guaranteed we’d be ok. All we had to do was let go of the idea of just making DNF in the traditional way… which I’m ashamed to admit was easier to let go of than I thought it would be.
In fact, with my role in this, I wouldn’t ever really work on the “real” DNF. That was a tough pill to swallow, but again the big picture looked good.
The beauty of the plan is that even though I’m telling you about it now, it is too late for it to have any negative impact on the long term goal. That’s something that took me a long term to come to grips with. It just *works* and I’ll be damned if I understand fully why or how. That’s biz and marketing brilliance for you… I just know how to put maps together or script up some gameplay. *sigh*
What Epic got out of this whole deal was basically this mystery project that is a constant “customer” of their engine, with people always speculating on whether it was updated to the newest one or not, etc. You would be surprised at how many licenses this has helped sell through the years. Who said business made any sense? Not to mention a team to just do research into engine upgrades without any pressure of actually releasing anything. Huge advantage. Notice that Epic really pulled ahead in the engine licensing business after 2001? That’s *not* an accident.
So that chair again.
We didn’t end the first chat on a particularly *good* note, but I think we were mostly exhausted… but there was an undercurrent of “can we really trust each other on this?”. That’s typical of any big business deal, but this was a case where we would be agreeing to hold this story steady for decades. Yes, decades. You don’t go into this lightly.
We all came back the next day (Cliffy in white thankfully, not red). We went around and gave our thoughts on things after having a night to sleep on it. Scott and George wanted to get paperwork signed that day if we were going to attempt it at all. This seemed *way* too soon and I didn’t have a lawyer around to read the contract or anything. I was young, but I had had enough experience by that point to know you don’t sign a contract of any significance without having a lawyer read it. Unfortunately it was made clear that this offer was active only so long as we were all in the room. Once any one of us left it was void and Scott, George, and Mark Rein (the three that put it together) would deny all knowledge. They had never done any discussions of this in written form except the contracts which Scott Miller was holding.
That was pressure… here was this deal where I would be set for life, and if I backed out of it, it would blow the whole thing for both companies and everyone involved. Not only would I be backing out of the opportunity of a lifetime, but I would also be ruined in the industry because those guys have way more power than I do. I wanted to do it, but how do you commit on such short notice and without really knowing what you are signing?
Brandon, Allen, Keith, and I kept hemming and hawing and we could tell we were really causing problems with everyone else in the room. I said that I wanted to do it, but I *had* to have a lawyer review it before I signed it. The fury in the eyes of the guys sitting across from me was literally enough to give me a third degree burn. I have *never* felt that much fear in my life. Well… up to that point at least.
I was told to think about my next words very carefully before giving my final answer. Honestly, I felt this was a test to see how well I would hold up to pressure later when we had to “hold the lie” (the similarity to “hold the line” isn’t on accident), so I held firm and said I really wanted to, but needed to have it reviewed…
oh fuck…
Faster than I can even remember (literally… I don’t remember) I was knocked out of my chair by I *think* of all people Tim Sweeney (it was a wooden kitchen chair) and was pinned on the ground by Mike Wilson and Cliffy B (he’s so much stronger than I ever expected). George walks over to my chair and fucking stomps the shit out of it until the legs are broken off. He casually picks up one of the legs that had split into a shit your pants style point and starts tossing it up and down. Scott and Mark Rein alternate on and off saying that I apparently wasn’t aware how *real* business is done and that if I didn’t want to find out why those two companies had maintained such a strong position in the industry dating back to the shareware days (when it seems people didn’t ask nearly as many questions about why developers appeared, made a game, and then disappeared without a trace)… I had better reconsider my answer.
I do remember the next part very very well though… I will never forget it and I have to admit that I have dreams about it pretty frequently.
Cliffy and Mike pulled me up and shoved my face about 6 inches from the point of the chair leg. I was drenched in sweat (the trailers didn’t have decent AC so it was already hot as hell in there)… and if they had let go of me I would not have been able to stand on my own.
George looked me in the eyes and asked me one more time what I was going to do… so at that point I did what anyone would do…
lol.. who knows maybe its true. maybe the behind the scenes dealings are really mob style meetings. maybe people like mark rein really kill people who dont agree with him an then make clones of them so that nobody knows they died.
"In addition, Take-Two continues to retain the publishing rights to Duke Nukem Forever,"
This is just a changing of the guard. Duke Nukem Forever will no doubt continue its Sisyphusian development under a new studio until the end of days. Perhaps its eventual release will be the harbinger of the apocalypse.
Quote:
"In addition, Take-Two continues to retain the publishing rights to Duke Nukem Forever,"
This is just a changing of the guard. Duke Nukem Forever will no doubt continue its Sisyphusian development under a new studio until the end of days. Perhaps its eventual release will be the harbinger of the apocalypse.
Publishing rights. George and 3DR still own the Duke IP. All this means that if 3DR was to somehow finish DNF, they are contractually bound to let 2k publish it. 2K holds no rights to the Duke IP and could therefore not pass it on to another developer unless George agreed to it.
lol.. who knows maybe its true. maybe the behind the scenes dealings are really mob style meetings. maybe people like mark rein really kill people who dont agree with him an then make clones of them so that nobody knows they died.
You still interning at IW? You could always go ask Charlie yourself if this is true or not
jack: 'publishing rights'
I don't believe that covers anything but the right to release it if and when it does get finished. Without 3drealms to finish it --and unless they sell it--, there's no hope for it. There's the possibility that 3DR manages to sell an ip or just the entire company in order to get out of bankruptcy, however.
Here's hoping they do, as I want to take a look at what they've been doing all those years!
I was planning on doing this when my son was born in three weeks, but...
I found out yesterday that my job I had for the last 16 and a half years is going away. Not just me, but the whole company I was working for. Done - for those of you that didn't know, I worked for 3D Realms, the folks who make Duke Nukem videogames. I have until next Friday at work, then I'm out. I'm working on a few things, but right now, I have to say I have zero desire to write about the Texas Rangers.
I WILL be back, but for right now, my head is a in a place where I can't begin to bring myself to write. Sorry about that, gang. Given I have a kid coming, and I'm going to be out of a job, I want to put out the tin cup. If you are in an ability to help out, I'd really appreciate it if you could send a few bucks my way - but please understand it will not affect anything , but when you're desperate, you have to do what you have to do. Thank you for visiting.
(BTW, DFish Design is the name I've given myself for side website design).
Yeah, loads have been released into the wild. I wouldn't normally link my own forum here, but you dont have to register to view it, and I've collected all the ones released so far from about 5 or so difference sources. Lots of renders, WIP shots, concept art, ingame shots and highpoly/low poly shots:
If anyone from 3DR is looking for work, R* has positions at most studios.
i don't think anyone's gonna be able to pick up siegler, miller and the rest of the original apogee gang. If anything i'd think they would form a new company to fill their gap.
I hope this doesn't offend anybody, but I really hope DNF is leaked.
for a game that has had so much stigma around it for SOOOO long I feel like a leaked release would at the very least make it so hard work goes recognized - vs. evaporating into thin air.
I'm not going to see this as a sign of the times. Just out with the bad, in with the new.
It seems the company hasn't made a single game themselves since the late 90's. Did they sit around for 13 years smoking weed and playing World of Warcraft?
If there is a future for Duke Nukem...give it to a studio that can actually make a quality game.
I'm not going to see this as a sign of the times. Just out with the bad, in with the new.
It seems the company hasn't made a single game themselves since the late 90's. Did they sit around for 13 years smoking weed and playing World of Warcraft?
If there is a future for Duke Nukem...give it to a studio that can actually make a quality game.
I've read that Prey and Max Payne 2 were developed by Human Head Studios, and Remedy Entertainment, respectively. 3D Realms acted as a producer. That is loosely defined. Did they provide some of their funding for those titles, or simple walk in and give a thumbs up every so often just to get their name on the box. Who knows? Don't forget, Prey took 11 years to create. The fact is the studio couldn't do what it needed to do in a reasonable amount of time. And who honestly believes an updated DNF would have sold very well...or enough to keep the studio running anyway? The game industry has matured slightly since the time when guns and tits slapped into a horribly designed computer game made it fun.
i don't think anyone's gonna be able to pick up siegler, miller and the rest of the original apogee gang. If anything i'd think they would form a new company to fill their gap.
And you don't think that a few dozen or so artists and programmers who are now out of work don't appreciate any help?
Shame, Duke Nukem 3D was so much fun. Concerning development times, won't 10 - 13 years of development mean that you are constantly changing and upgrading tech, thus rendering your assets less relevant?
And so the leaking begins: Duke Forever animation demo reel. http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/316675.html
I'm slightly surprised by how well it was shaping up. It's obviously a long way from being finished in even the fully textured shots, but there was some definite potential in there.
From that video, the big boss battle in the football field looked like fun. What very little they seem to have accomplished with the game so far reminds me of Riddick, and Painkiller.
From that video, the big boss battle in the football field looked like fun. What very little they seem to have accomplished with the game so far reminds me of Riddick, and Painkiller.
That's actually a level near the end of Duke 3D too. When you kill the boss there, you field goal his head.
Duke brand is worth too much money for that to never see the light of day. Look to someone else buying the right to *develop* (not own) it to bring it out into the open.
Replies
h-ho!
I don't know how they can have a title in development for about 13 years and expect to still make a profit at the end.
I feel bad for any employees who are out of a job now, especially those who now have been in the games industry for over a decade with no shipped titles to put on their resum
Step #1
Get some business school sharks to come and restructure the company.
Step #2
........
Step #3
Profit!!
sorry to all those that got shafted..
It won't be the same if some other developer picks it up and starts anew and puts it out in a year or so.
http://www.breakitdownblog.com/3d-realms-epic-dnf-was-a-guerilla-marketing-scheme-the-chair-story/
Publishing rights. George and 3DR still own the Duke IP. All this means that if 3DR was to somehow finish DNF, they are contractually bound to let 2k publish it. 2K holds no rights to the Duke IP and could therefore not pass it on to another developer unless George agreed to it.
You still interning at IW? You could always go ask Charlie yourself if this is true or not
I don't believe that covers anything but the right to release it if and when it does get finished. Without 3drealms to finish it --and unless they sell it--, there's no hope for it. There's the possibility that 3DR manages to sell an ip or just the entire company in order to get out of bankruptcy, however.
Here's hoping they do, as I want to take a look at what they've been doing all those years!
[ame="
i'm sure the real story behind duke is nothing quite as controversial.
http://talkinrealatyou.blogspot.com/2009/05/end-is-beginning.html
http://www.teamblurgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=623
Take a frank.
i don't think anyone's gonna be able to pick up siegler, miller and the rest of the original apogee gang. If anything i'd think they would form a new company to fill their gap.
for a game that has had so much stigma around it for SOOOO long I feel like a leaked release would at the very least make it so hard work goes recognized - vs. evaporating into thin air.
a torrent-ed release also be somehow fitting. 0_o
It seems the company hasn't made a single game themselves since the late 90's. Did they sit around for 13 years smoking weed and playing World of Warcraft?
If there is a future for Duke Nukem...give it to a studio that can actually make a quality game.
What about Prey and MaxPayne 2?
And you don't think that a few dozen or so artists and programmers who are now out of work don't appreciate any help?
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/316675.html
I'm slightly surprised by how well it was shaping up. It's obviously a long way from being finished in even the fully textured shots, but there was some definite potential in there.
Oh well I was really looking forward for some Duke...
Looks cool Jack, thanks for the link.
Anybody hear any more? A lot of sites are reporting this too.
3DRealms....RIP
*poors out 40oz*...this is for all my dead homies.