I'd be interested to know where you're at to put that on my own personal black list
Autopsy: Like Rob was saying though, that IS the problem. People like you come in and undercut people with self respect...Guy A is willing to eat KD and live on a shoestring budget so he undercuts Guy B who is trying to make a decent living and earn what he is truly worth. Not only does that screw over Guy B but it also screws over everyone else as it knocks everyone down a few pegs.
you're what makes John's bosses think it's okay to take advantage of their employees because making games is a "privilege" rather than a career.
interesting thread you guys have brewing here. In my experience even if you are good friends with your boss, if you are doing or they hear you are planning to do something that would directly or even indirectly effect the amount of benjamins flowing into their pocket you better watch the fuck out.
everyone is replaceable especially in Vancouver with the recent hundreds of layoffs from EA and radical a while back. also word travels fast in the tightly knit industry here, you really dont want to get the reputation of being a shit disturber, as unfortunately higher up's opinions tend to get around more than the actual truth.
On the other hand yes it is good to have integrity and what is the point of working somewhere when it makes you miserable and you have no enthusiasm besides the paycheck.
I would present the situation as a straight up conversation with bossman informing him of how working so much overtime lateley has really started to get you burnt out etc. from past experience I can say most decent people will find some sort of comprimise be it extra time off or suffling some people to balance the load.
the main thing is someone needs to speak up and clearly identify the main things that are pissing people off and creating unrest. you dont have to be a dick about it or anything, just have a frank conversation, sometimes bosses either like to play dumb and pretend they dont know the team is unhappy or really are oblivious to it, if it has been brought up then atleast they cant fall back on the old "i didnt know" defense.
Given how things are right now I would say be grateful for a job, espeically when there are people like AE who are wanting to giv'er. then again its all about how you want to feel and get out of life, if its really that bad say fuck em' and walk, but dont do it simply cause some manties got ruffled and interstudio drama / politics blows things outta proportion (you guys know it happens :P)
worst comes to worst, tote in the sawed off mossberg and let loose with a bit of fun before / while you quit hahah. although given the recent rash of shootings here Vancouver it might get lost in the crowd, maybe go with a Katana to stand out, plus its more personal that way. DISCLAIMER: DONT BE AN IDOIT AND ACTUALLY DO THIS
Astro- lol No, I am not applying at any job's asking for minimum wage or few bucks above it. I agree with what you said about graphic design, I never shot to be a graphic designer it was just easy to get a job, and I'm tired of it and don't want to do it.
I'm not applying to game comps saying I'll do it for 10 bucks, or for free and use them for my resume, fuck that! I have not applied to any game comps, and I'm not saying I'm taking your guy's jobs.
But if you were looking for a job and there was a dude that they might hire instead of you...would you not settle for less then go back to the job search? Trust me, if your're sitting in a pile of overdue bills, you will.
And it's not me, or people like me that give manegement the idea "hmmm...if we hire him because hes cheaper, then we'll save money!" That IS their main goal, and they will always be looking for that. Go to a job interview, they will never offer you the highest they're willing to go off the bat.
You guys probably don't get it, cuz you're all working and haven't been hit by the economy yet. What about the sudios that have closed? And the guys from EA? Are they being let go because they are horrible artists? Maybe, lol...but now you have even more artisits applying for the same jobs and if you are so stubborn to keep asking for the highest pay every time....you might not get a job in a while.
hey john, if it makes you feel any better, the company I work for pushed payroll back a week last pay period because they needed to wait on a client to give them money first... and then promised to get back on track this pay period.... well thursday rolls around and they say they're pushing to next week.
My first 2 years here was awesome as well, then shit hit the fan and people either got laid off, fired or quit because people got laid off, fired or quit. Then more layoffs. Now this. Personally I'm quite sick of my job right now too, and I'm starting to seriously rethink this whole art thing for the short and mid term... and it's got me up right now at 3 am, writing this post :P
AutopsySoldier: man... your attitude is what drives salaries down in entire industries. Ever wonder why musicians get like a 10% cut of their sales at best? Because you have two guys who can play guitar. One is highly skilled and soulful and wants a fair wage for the time and effort he has put into learning his craft, one knows about 5 cords and wails into a mic and will play for peanuts because he "just loves what he does". The skilled artist then either has to match the price of the hack, or find a new industry, because the consuming populace never gets to HEAR the quality of the skilled artist in any large format all they know of is noise, so they buy noise.
The assorted bands one friend of mine has been in can't make decent money at a gig because of this mindset. Her photography business is also having trouble for the same reason. Some noob with a camera can still click the shutter button, and is willing to do it for cheap, so her high quality portraits coming from her 20+ years of experience, knowledge, and training seem "overpriced" because jenny down the street with her camera from wal-mart will shoot photos for 10$.
This is also why my state (New Mexico) is so poor. There's always someone willing to do less than stellar work for a super low wage. As such there are basically two classes of jobs here. The unskilled, low pay, cogs of society, and high tech government work. The people who get those jobs, aren't local. I'm all too familiar with there not being jobs toward the industry I wish to work in. The closest game studio worth anything is about 500 miles from me. I'll have to pick up and move eventually, but in the mean time, yeah I need money too, so I work in totally unrelated areas, but now I can sure make a kickass cappuccino.
But try running a company where all employee's are asking for top pay in this tough economy. I'm sure then you'll be looking at it through management's eyes.
That's just plain BS. If you want highly skilled employees to work for peanuts then you went to the Dilbert school of management. Management is not like that at any company, just a lot of them, and many will fail because of it. This happened during the later part of the industrial revolution to, and gave rise to the workers unions of old, many still persisting today. There are hundreds of ways to cut costs, but treating your employees like commodities isn't one of them.
Have some respect for the trade you wish to do. Just look at the quality level, training, and knowledge required for modern game art. Yet you're telling me that you would put in that much personal time and effort for the same wage you can get tossing hamburgers at a work-a-day shift restaurant? Its bad enough in my mind that an apprentice electrician with oh.. 2 weeks of experience routinely makes as much or more than a game artist with 1-3 years of experience, so you want money, go be an electrician. You need nearly no skills to start, just have to buy your tools, get on the job training, the most complex thing you have to mentally process is on the level of highschool algebra, and you start off making 25-30k a year depending on what jobsites you get. And that in my poor backwater state.
Astro- lol No, I am not applying at any job's asking for minimum wage or few bucks above it. I agree with what you said about graphic design, I never shot to be a graphic designer it was just easy to get a job, and I'm tired of it and don't want to do it.
I'm not applying to game comps saying I'll do it for 10 bucks, or for free and use them for my resume, fuck that! I have not applied to any game comps, and I'm not saying I'm taking your guy's jobs.
But if you were looking for a job and there was a dude that they might hire instead of you...would you not settle for less then go back to the job search? Trust me, if your're sitting in a pile of overdue bills, you will.
And it's not me, or people like me that give manegement the idea "hmmm...if we hire him because hes cheaper, then we'll save money!" That IS their main goal, and they will always be looking for that. Go to a job interview, they will never offer you the highest they're willing to go off the bat.
You guys probably don't get it, cuz you're all working and haven't been hit by the economy yet. What about the sudios that have closed? And the guys from EA? Are they being let go because they are horrible artists? Maybe, lol...but now you have even more artisits applying for the same jobs and if you are so stubborn to keep asking for the highest pay every time....you might not get a job in a while.
You are just pretty much plain wrong in how you are thinking about it. We're not talking about working the counter at your local Qwickie Mart. The things that would have to be factored in for a game company to hire someone solely based upon asking salary pretty much makes it a moot point. For the most part, game companies are not trying to get off on the cheap when hiring talent. There are a number of things they look at:
1. Portfolio - most, if not all, game companies want to hire what they consider to be the best. If you don't at least meet the bar they won't even bother with an initial phone interview.
2. Experience - has this person worked in game development previously? What titles do they have on their resume? Do they know our software and tech or will they require some ramp-up time to be trained in our licensed software packages and our licensed game engine? Or, if the company has a proprietary game engine: is this person someone who has experience working with a variety of tech and/or seem to be someone who can pick up new tech relatively quickly?
3. Location - is this person local? If we make them an offer can they start in two weeks or will they need time to relocate? Also, what is our cost to relocate this person?
4. How will this person mesh with our team? Did they seem like a good fit when they came in for an interview?
The ideal candidate has a combination of technical knowledge, talent and experience so companies have a lot more to consider than "which guy will work for a less pay." If you have two candidates with comparable skills, experience, personality and are both local to the area, then salary may become a factor. Even that considered, most companies already have an idea of what they are going to pay an employee and are willing to go a bit above that for a candidate that they really want, so it's more of a matter of finding the right fit for the team / company.
-slaps his forehead- I am not saying the pro's need to go down to minimum wage...that is just, stupid. And I AM NOT LOOKING FOR WORK IN 3D at the moment, at any level or any wage. I know it takes skill and a strong portfolio...and that is what I'm waiting for.
I am not saying that management will hire sucky artists to just save money, if they do then yes, they deserve to fail.
I am saying that if both candidates are both pros same exact playing field. The one asking for less cash will get hired...now, that's just me using my common sense, I'm not part or have even been in management of any company.
Vailias- But isn't part of being a garage band...dealing with sucky/cheaply paid gigs? And why am I being attacked because management, or people that want to save money go for the cheaper one? That's not my fault. And we all know that musicians have always been paid well once they join a band.
The better artist/candidate should ALWAYS get the job. But I think management see's every person as expenses instead of talented artists.
But I'm done arguing here, never meant for all of this to happen. So, please PM if you would like to continue this lively chat with me.
first of all: john, feel bad for you. i had a similar thing, not in the same industry of course, since im not in it. but i was at a certain place in a certain position, had a whole bunch of ppl on my side, but the employer picks on me. unfortunately, employer is also my art teacher, so i cant say much without having to worry about the grade that'll get me into university. same thing with all my support, except they were much weaker. So i had this one-on-one interview with mrs bosswoman, and i held my own. did anything get changed? no. i just got a bit more respect all round. and that was one of my gripes anyway.
moral? yea: stand up and speak up, or get shot down before u even get up.
Autopsy: careful with the all caps yelling. might not be intentional, but some will rip ur head off
i think i get wat u mean
if im not mistaken ur saying that if there are awesome artists @ 5k dollars, but then a third equally awesome artists asks for 100 $ less, he'd be the top pick.
what these guys are saying, i believe, is tat any artist who knows his worth wont go for cheap, cuz even in this economic state, devs still care about quality, and will pay for it:
a good quality game is what nets in money. they cant risk to lose that
Autopsy, I don't think that management guys ever stand up in front of an Art Director after an artists interview and say something like 'hey no way, this guy is cheaper, let's hire him instead!' Also, can you honestly say you've seen 2 artists with portfolio exactly comparable? I don't think this situation ever happens really.
What's more likely to happen (regardless of the world's economic situation...) is that, you have guyA and guyB applying for the same job. A and B are eligible for the same salary. A turns out to be much better than B. A gets the job! And if A dosnt take the offer ... B won get it either since there is likely another talented A2 guy out there with his application form already on the AD's/Lead artist's desk.
Bottom line, you could ask yourself the question : "How can I make my art better than what it is already?" rather than "How could I get a foot in the door with what I have produced so far".
Like AZ pointed out, I have rarely heard of talented game artists having a hard time finding a job. The tough journey is to get there artistically. (and that journey can be quite hard without appropriate financial support... but that's another story and it really depends on so many factors.)
Back to management issues:
The way I understand it is that bad management happens *after* the hiring process. Especially since the 'bad' kind of management guys certainly don't give a fuck about artists interviews! So why would they be involved at this point.
Or maybe you meet the "head" of the studio or company (if the company is small enough. Been there, can be weird!), he will try to make it look as if the project is made of pure gold and is going to be gamer's heaven ... and then you later realize how bad the situation is, partly because of the vision for the project is way unrealistic, or worse : because no team management guy had the balls to report the bad situation to his boss, in fear of loosing his job.
I want to insert a bit of my past and crappy experience but growing up a bit from it........... posting about bad experiences can come back and bite you in the ass again. There ARE times were standing up and saying something in a smaller job can cause particular you headaches. I was in a situation like that, were unfortunately "the entire team complained" but no one was brave (or in my case dumb enough ) to stand up to the dictator (boss) in the end.It caused me more headaches and stress, at the cost I told my old boss what I felt, it gave me piece of mind (at least in my soul) But mentally the job became MORE abusive and more annoying and just overall more horrible...
solution I found...........Fuck it left the damn state and left it to burn, went to a new job and been happier ever since... Im in a better job now, but who knows when this can happen here as well. My point being , have dignity and you will receive dignity back, have vulgarism and hate and you shall receive it back as well, approach this situation smart...dont go in guns abalazing or your ass might be abalzed by the time the conversation is over.
Rob- Jesus man I know you like to tell people the truth , but just because your a smarter then average bear artist , dont gotta act like a hardcore nazi on the kid. Cut him some slack he was only trying to help. (hehe bio-gay...sorry behnaz and ethan made the comment)
...this can give you even more false positives. People will emphatically agree with you beforehand and then without saying decide against the idea and not stand with you... even though they agree with what you are saying....
Do you really think if whiny bitch said all the right things and nailed mr. ceo agianst the walll till he was like "uh uh uh" that it would have changed the decision to stop paying 200 people? he already had plans for that money before going into any meeting. IMO no talk was changing the direction of that meeting.
This is a false situation and quite a weak excuse for not speaking up if you are a motivator and good speaker. You are making excuses- well you can make excuses for why you get pushed around, but you shouldn't be making them for others.
Your whole post misses the point and is just making excuse after excuse for how you are mistreated. 'I'm just one person, what can I do.' 'I can't make a difference anyway.' 'Blah blah whatever.' You are making excuses, that is what you are doing. Quite honestly, you can say 'You should only do this if you can find pink polka dot socks' and it is as valid as any of your other excuses. Because that's all they are, excuses for why you accept being pushed around and taken advantage of. We agree you are being pushed around and taken advantage of- if you want to keep making excuses, do so, but please do not present them to me or anyone else as they are anything but excuses. They are reasons for not doing something with is clearly and obviously right, which makes them excuses for you to try to escape the problem (and, as I am about to say below, still want to get the benefits of people who don't make so many excuses).
Its just so much much MUCH much easier to find a place with good management and move there, than to change bad management into good management. When you talk to a place with good people, everyone understands each other, the management wont hire douchebag scabs that like being stepped on and you can tell when you are being interviewed by people who treat employees with respect, for the most part....
Yes let's let other people do the work of fighting for rights and benefits so that you can reap the reward. Do you think god almighty created the idea of a living wage or created labor laws? No, it was the hard fight of labor that achieved it, and quite frankly it is still very weak in this country (as almighty_gir's last post demonstrated, especially in creative fields). When you make excuses or want the gain without the work, you are just hurting your future and hurting everyone else.
also word travels fast in the tightly knit industry here, you really dont want to get the reputation of being a shit disturber, as unfortunately higher up's opinions tend to get around more than the actual truth.
Yes, word travels fast. And see how many job opportunities open up for the guy who stood up in the face of adversity, stood up for what was right and for his coworkers, drew the line and went all in with his job, who coworkers have a newfound respect for, who is clearly designated as a leader and can inspire people. Shitty companies are afraid of these people, but strong companies are made of these people. As I said in my first post- I don't know anyone that has left a company for moral or ethical reasons and been worse off for it, precisely because it shows such a strength of character and initiative.
Regarding autopsy soldier: thanks guys, didn't want to deal with that crap. Very sage words.
seforin: Yes sometimes you have to leave. But a different person in your situation, or you in a different situation, and the results would have been different. The fact that you failed to affect change in your one instance should not mean you shouldn't affect change when called for in the future, or encourage anyone to shirk that responsibility when it is called for now. I mostly agree with your post though (and am not saying you explicitly encourage the opposite of what I'm saying), I just wanted to call that part out more clearly.
Guy A and Guy B go to the same interview, they're both qualified and both can do the same job....Guy B asks for way less than Guy A....You know damn well that management is going to hire Guy B.
Guy A is cool guy
Guy B is a dick
Most people hire guy A for more money knowing he'll work well in the team and that there won't so much drama down the line.
The cliche "Im only one person I cant effect change" is not what im saying; Im saying people will do what they feel is best for themselves; no matter what they tell you. So, I think that you need to effect change for yourself and not worry about others. Banding together with common goals sure, but to be careful of putting my goals on another who may not believe, is what im weary of... and was my experience.... "Im only one person", in that, I can effect change for myself and should do so. Who am I to say Johnny over there is being mistreated if he is satisfied or thinks the money is "good enough". He should leave with me if unhappy, stay if happy. Then management should come after us apologetically if work is sub-par or employees all gone... If his actions are illegal report it.
How is leaving an organization giving away my labor rights or having someone else fight for me? Is the owner breaking labour laws? Nobody has said this.... I have the right to leave and not work... isnt that what your own example under Pixel's quote states... that its a strength of character to leave an organization? Everyone should leave that organization if its that bad, then the owner should have no employees if he treats people unfairly against labor laws.
I think you should have Rob come talk to your boss. I don't know if things will work out but it sure would be entertaining. Oh and definitely get that on webcam...priceless!
I think it boils down to how much you are willing to take for that paycheck. Dealing with an abusive boss and a toxic work environment is not productive. I don't give a damn if people stood up with me I wouldn't let my boss treat me like shit. It really boils down to character, are you going to bend over and take it? Or are you going to fight back, and if not gain the respect of your boss and co-workers at least your self respect will be intact?
And please don't come at me about my professionalism in a forum where there's a freaking cock-tank challenge, lol.
I know you are getting foot put to ass in this thread, but I gotta agree with you on this, lol!
Originally Posted by AutopsySoldier
Guy A and Guy B go to the same interview, they're both qualified and both can do the same job....Guy B asks for way less than Guy A....You know damn well that management is going to hire Guy B.
Most of the time a place has a salary range already in mind for a given position. They've already allocated the funds its how they know they have the cash to hire someone. They're fine with spending the max to get a good artist. They'll go lower if they can only find GradeB or C talent.
If the offer goes to Guy A and he is asking too much they might ask him to take a cut.
If the offer goes to Guy B and he is asking too little, they surprise him with a raise.
The point is, by trying to speak to them in a wink and a nod that they are getting a better deal with you, just says "hey I'm desperate, slightly unprofessional. I'm willing to undercut everyone on the team if it will advance me personally". If that's the message you're looking to send by all means wink and nod away. If they hire you under those circumstances, please let everyone know. Because no one wants to work for a place that is run like that. Its nothing but a "my first gig was a nightmare" story in the making.
If you send that vibe during the meet the team interview you'll hit the same brick wall. Despite what egotistical newbies think, we've all worked hard to get where we are, seeing someone walk in and try to devalue that work makes it hard to accept that person. Especially when you know they'll be bitching 6mo about how tiny their pay check is. They'll start looking for a new job so they can make more money and we'll be in the same position we're in right now, having to find a new guy.
So actually, if on the very off chance that two guys are exactly the same, and one is asking lower with a wink and a nod that they're a better deal. I'd recommend passing on them. So we can get someone who is going to be stable and not a drain on our time.
Also if you send that vibe and 6mo later you want a raise (and you will get tired of making peanuts) how hard is that going to be? "But you said you could do the job cheaper? So you lied?" It just makes it that much easier for them to tell you no.
Like Pior said, you'll hardly ever find two candidates that are exactly equal and most of the time it comes down to who is the more talented artist.
And...
Rob for Union President!
Edit:
As for the cock tank thread. We can blow off steam however we like. PC might be a little rough around the edges but at least no one is putting on a sh!t eating grin to try and be someone they aren't. Most of the people here are some of the most professional people you'll ever have the chance to work with. Passing judgment on their off time activities is only looking at a tiny slice of the whole picture.
You know, I’ve been lurking here a bit, and I after reading some of this I finally had to register so I could respond. I find it amazing that intelligent people can be so ignorant of certain basic facts of life. John dude, and the rest of you: life is not fair. You’ve got to deal. Businesses are not fair. They are not created to be fair. They are created to make money. Your boss went ahead and did something that you haven’t done. He started a business. He hired you to do a job. He’s paying you money. You are not part of a fraternity or a club. You don’t get a say. If you don’t like it, leave. If you want to continue in your current career, leave amicably and don’t follow through with this rebellion nonsense or try to drag people with you, otherwise it will follow you around and no one wants to hire a troublemaker. When you can rise above the inapplicable belief system you’re waving like a banner and accept the fact that, until you do it yourself you’ll never know what it is like to run a business, you will be constantly frustrated. Yes, some businesses are run more smoothly than others. Some businesses have also been around longer than others and have had time to develop processes that work. Do you think that Relic ran as smoothly back at the beginning as it does now? Do you know that Relic started out planning overtime into their project schedules? They realized their mistake and grew. All companies will do that, including the one you currently work for. So if you want to feel righteous and tell off your boss in front of everyone, go right ahead, you will have to face the consequences of that and you have no one to blame but yourself. A moment of satisfaction vs. potentially weeks before you find another paycheque. Think about the bigger picture with respect to reality and just deal.
He is paying you out of his pocket but he also has the most to gain as the owner of the company, so that's his gamble not your fault. Are you doing the work you are getting paid for? I love how people in the games industry will pay you for XXX dollars of work, you do XXX dollars of work, and then they say you are slacking because you didn't do XXXX dollars of work for XXX dollars. If you have some incentive for the company to do well, stock, slice of ownership, royalties, etc, it's a different story. You would want to put in that effort to make those worth something. If your just being paid salary, do the job your paid for. No need for you to bust your ass to make someone else's options worth millions.
All I can say is life is too short to not like what you work on or do. Shop around other jobs, consider doing contract work, or make a change in your current situation if you can.
I have a feeling your talking about prototype :S wich does not surprise me becuase that game looks rough!
anyways back on topic it sucks bro seems to me that you do the same thing i do when i work on art. Ill stay up until 5 am sometimes working on stuff if im having fun doing it.
Ive never worked on-site before so i dont know how it works with deadlines and such.
but worked on several mods where there were deadlines. but i didnt mind because everyone was having fun doing there work and giving out praise to eachother. In the end that sort of environment helps me work faster and make good art at the same time.
If the mod team said hey finish this on time or we'll kick you off the team i would quit right away as its not a paying job and im doing this for fun not to get stressed out.
I know that working onsite is different and your expected to finish things on time and im all for management telling you to work faster if your not hitting deadlines. But when they expect you to do 10x the work your supposed to and then get mad at you when you dont finish all your stuff on time, thats just not right and i would either quit or take it up with management myself.
But thats not easy to do when you have rent and food to pay for so i can totally understand if you dont want to do that.
In my experience (not in the game industry however) managment tend to be pussys with a big stick, full of shit and opressive untill you pull out the shotty. I worked in the PC industry for over 10 years, fortuneately for me only 3 of those years were working for someone else. Both my employers were assholes who tried to exploit me. I learn fast and tend to do things faster than most people (work related) so I got through a lot more work than my co workers. That was great at first seeng as in both my jobs I got comission bonuses but then they started screwing me over and refusing to give me the comission because Joe Blogs (unnamed coworker) supposedly helped me and did most of the work. Needless to say it was total bullshit and the coworkers in question admitted it too. I told the dude that I was only going to work 3 days a week for the salary I was getting (I was denied a raise previously) and the jackass bitched like crazy but eventually caved. I worked there untill I found a better payed position. The next job ended after they stopped paying me on time, I was doing ALL the work and yet the jobs I did were paying the bosses salaries. I told them to fuck off and started my own tech company which I ran for 7 years. I am now 28 and self retired (smart investments are king).
Stand up for yourself, a pushover gets nowhere. People that make it in life are usually not smarter or more talented, they are ruthless. Don't be afraid of tomorow, be mindful of today and how you feel about yourself and your situation. If life sux its time for a change, never live to work, work to live. If you feel that your life is all about the job then get a new job. Sucess is not how famous you become in your profession, its how well you take care of yourself and those you care for.
But make sure you have a go at changing it before you give up. A real go... not a passive aggressive complaint under your breath kind of thing. Be willing to have awkward conversations with the management or owners.
I've been able to set myself up to work either in my home or the office. This has been extremely helpful for my sanity and art ability. It keeps me fresh and less stressed. When situations or the management gets to me I'm able to step back and zbrush at home. I highly recommend this if you're able.
Helikon Technologies out in New Westminster back in 2000.
Missed paycheques, Long hours, weekends and the lot.
Long story short LISTEN TO ROB. He knows what he's talking about (BTW I love your posts on thechaosengine).
I'm owed over $8,000 and that's a LOT considering barely made over $30k a year back then.
This kinda stuff that happens a LOT. And it never turns out like you hope. It always ends up with them OWING you lots of money, and you working fruitlessly on something that will never be released.
Don't buy into their stupid guilt trips either.
If THEY did their jobs, you would be paid, and motivated to work.
Hahaha, damn that went around quick. Yea, we're both out of work at the moment. Scary time to be without work, but I it's better this way. Now I need to get with the 'folio updatin though. Problem with working a lot of OT is that there's no time to build a decent looking portfolio. :P
I've removed any and all posts made by John or Mitch, and any that mentioned Activision. Do not PM or IM me asking me why, it won't be mentioned so save your energy.
Secondly, it is with regret that I removed those posts. IMO it's a service to every professional out there to hear first-hand accounts, biased or otherwise. And, while I think its unwarranted to ever be slanderous towards a company, keeping it objective and on-point can be helpful to both future employees and the company itself. It's a shame when those companies can't see it as such and seemingly take it perfectly.
Imagine, a company that listened to its employees, past or present.
So, with that, this thread is closed. Alternatively, we've a thread going on about 'ideal work environments' some of you should probably read.
Replies
Autopsy: Like Rob was saying though, that IS the problem. People like you come in and undercut people with self respect...Guy A is willing to eat KD and live on a shoestring budget so he undercuts Guy B who is trying to make a decent living and earn what he is truly worth. Not only does that screw over Guy B but it also screws over everyone else as it knocks everyone down a few pegs.
you're what makes John's bosses think it's okay to take advantage of their employees because making games is a "privilege" rather than a career.
everyone is replaceable especially in Vancouver with the recent hundreds of layoffs from EA and radical a while back. also word travels fast in the tightly knit industry here, you really dont want to get the reputation of being a shit disturber, as unfortunately higher up's opinions tend to get around more than the actual truth.
On the other hand yes it is good to have integrity and what is the point of working somewhere when it makes you miserable and you have no enthusiasm besides the paycheck.
I would present the situation as a straight up conversation with bossman informing him of how working so much overtime lateley has really started to get you burnt out etc. from past experience I can say most decent people will find some sort of comprimise be it extra time off or suffling some people to balance the load.
the main thing is someone needs to speak up and clearly identify the main things that are pissing people off and creating unrest. you dont have to be a dick about it or anything, just have a frank conversation, sometimes bosses either like to play dumb and pretend they dont know the team is unhappy or really are oblivious to it, if it has been brought up then atleast they cant fall back on the old "i didnt know" defense.
Given how things are right now I would say be grateful for a job, espeically when there are people like AE who are wanting to giv'er. then again its all about how you want to feel and get out of life, if its really that bad say fuck em' and walk, but dont do it simply cause some manties got ruffled and interstudio drama / politics blows things outta proportion (you guys know it happens :P)
worst comes to worst, tote in the sawed off mossberg and let loose with a bit of fun before / while you quit hahah. although given the recent rash of shootings here Vancouver it might get lost in the crowd, maybe go with a Katana to stand out, plus its more personal that way. DISCLAIMER: DONT BE AN IDOIT AND ACTUALLY DO THIS
I'm not applying to game comps saying I'll do it for 10 bucks, or for free and use them for my resume, fuck that! I have not applied to any game comps, and I'm not saying I'm taking your guy's jobs.
But if you were looking for a job and there was a dude that they might hire instead of you...would you not settle for less then go back to the job search? Trust me, if your're sitting in a pile of overdue bills, you will.
And it's not me, or people like me that give manegement the idea "hmmm...if we hire him because hes cheaper, then we'll save money!" That IS their main goal, and they will always be looking for that. Go to a job interview, they will never offer you the highest they're willing to go off the bat.
You guys probably don't get it, cuz you're all working and haven't been hit by the economy yet. What about the sudios that have closed? And the guys from EA? Are they being let go because they are horrible artists? Maybe, lol...but now you have even more artisits applying for the same jobs and if you are so stubborn to keep asking for the highest pay every time....you might not get a job in a while.
My first 2 years here was awesome as well, then shit hit the fan and people either got laid off, fired or quit because people got laid off, fired or quit. Then more layoffs. Now this. Personally I'm quite sick of my job right now too, and I'm starting to seriously rethink this whole art thing for the short and mid term... and it's got me up right now at 3 am, writing this post :P
The assorted bands one friend of mine has been in can't make decent money at a gig because of this mindset. Her photography business is also having trouble for the same reason. Some noob with a camera can still click the shutter button, and is willing to do it for cheap, so her high quality portraits coming from her 20+ years of experience, knowledge, and training seem "overpriced" because jenny down the street with her camera from wal-mart will shoot photos for 10$.
This is also why my state (New Mexico) is so poor. There's always someone willing to do less than stellar work for a super low wage. As such there are basically two classes of jobs here. The unskilled, low pay, cogs of society, and high tech government work. The people who get those jobs, aren't local. I'm all too familiar with there not being jobs toward the industry I wish to work in. The closest game studio worth anything is about 500 miles from me. I'll have to pick up and move eventually, but in the mean time, yeah I need money too, so I work in totally unrelated areas, but now I can sure make a kickass cappuccino.
That's just plain BS. If you want highly skilled employees to work for peanuts then you went to the Dilbert school of management. Management is not like that at any company, just a lot of them, and many will fail because of it. This happened during the later part of the industrial revolution to, and gave rise to the workers unions of old, many still persisting today. There are hundreds of ways to cut costs, but treating your employees like commodities isn't one of them.
Have some respect for the trade you wish to do. Just look at the quality level, training, and knowledge required for modern game art. Yet you're telling me that you would put in that much personal time and effort for the same wage you can get tossing hamburgers at a work-a-day shift restaurant? Its bad enough in my mind that an apprentice electrician with oh.. 2 weeks of experience routinely makes as much or more than a game artist with 1-3 years of experience, so you want money, go be an electrician. You need nearly no skills to start, just have to buy your tools, get on the job training, the most complex thing you have to mentally process is on the level of highschool algebra, and you start off making 25-30k a year depending on what jobsites you get. And that in my poor backwater state.
You are just pretty much plain wrong in how you are thinking about it. We're not talking about working the counter at your local Qwickie Mart. The things that would have to be factored in for a game company to hire someone solely based upon asking salary pretty much makes it a moot point. For the most part, game companies are not trying to get off on the cheap when hiring talent. There are a number of things they look at:
1. Portfolio - most, if not all, game companies want to hire what they consider to be the best. If you don't at least meet the bar they won't even bother with an initial phone interview.
2. Experience - has this person worked in game development previously? What titles do they have on their resume? Do they know our software and tech or will they require some ramp-up time to be trained in our licensed software packages and our licensed game engine? Or, if the company has a proprietary game engine: is this person someone who has experience working with a variety of tech and/or seem to be someone who can pick up new tech relatively quickly?
3. Location - is this person local? If we make them an offer can they start in two weeks or will they need time to relocate? Also, what is our cost to relocate this person?
4. How will this person mesh with our team? Did they seem like a good fit when they came in for an interview?
The ideal candidate has a combination of technical knowledge, talent and experience so companies have a lot more to consider than "which guy will work for a less pay." If you have two candidates with comparable skills, experience, personality and are both local to the area, then salary may become a factor. Even that considered, most companies already have an idea of what they are going to pay an employee and are willing to go a bit above that for a candidate that they really want, so it's more of a matter of finding the right fit for the team / company.
I am not saying that management will hire sucky artists to just save money, if they do then yes, they deserve to fail.
I am saying that if both candidates are both pros same exact playing field. The one asking for less cash will get hired...now, that's just me using my common sense, I'm not part or have even been in management of any company.
Vailias- But isn't part of being a garage band...dealing with sucky/cheaply paid gigs? And why am I being attacked because management, or people that want to save money go for the cheaper one? That's not my fault. And we all know that musicians have always been paid well once they join a band.
The better artist/candidate should ALWAYS get the job. But I think management see's every person as expenses instead of talented artists.
But I'm done arguing here, never meant for all of this to happen. So, please PM if you would like to continue this lively chat with me.
moral? yea: stand up and speak up, or get shot down before u even get up.
Autopsy: careful with the all caps yelling. might not be intentional, but some will rip ur head off
i think i get wat u mean
if im not mistaken ur saying that if there are awesome artists @ 5k dollars, but then a third equally awesome artists asks for 100 $ less, he'd be the top pick.
what these guys are saying, i believe, is tat any artist who knows his worth wont go for cheap, cuz even in this economic state, devs still care about quality, and will pay for it:
a good quality game is what nets in money. they cant risk to lose that
What's more likely to happen (regardless of the world's economic situation...) is that, you have guyA and guyB applying for the same job. A and B are eligible for the same salary. A turns out to be much better than B. A gets the job! And if A dosnt take the offer ... B won get it either since there is likely another talented A2 guy out there with his application form already on the AD's/Lead artist's desk.
Bottom line, you could ask yourself the question : "How can I make my art better than what it is already?" rather than "How could I get a foot in the door with what I have produced so far".
Like AZ pointed out, I have rarely heard of talented game artists having a hard time finding a job. The tough journey is to get there artistically. (and that journey can be quite hard without appropriate financial support... but that's another story and it really depends on so many factors.)
Back to management issues:
The way I understand it is that bad management happens *after* the hiring process. Especially since the 'bad' kind of management guys certainly don't give a fuck about artists interviews! So why would they be involved at this point.
Or maybe you meet the "head" of the studio or company (if the company is small enough. Been there, can be weird!), he will try to make it look as if the project is made of pure gold and is going to be gamer's heaven ... and then you later realize how bad the situation is, partly because of the vision for the project is way unrealistic, or worse : because no team management guy had the balls to report the bad situation to his boss, in fear of loosing his job.
Good luck to anyone in a tricky situation,
P
solution I found...........Fuck it left the damn state and left it to burn, went to a new job and been happier ever since... Im in a better job now, but who knows when this can happen here as well. My point being , have dignity and you will receive dignity back, have vulgarism and hate and you shall receive it back as well, approach this situation smart...dont go in guns abalazing or your ass might be abalzed by the time the conversation is over.
Rob- Jesus man I know you like to tell people the truth , but just because your a smarter then average bear artist , dont gotta act like a hardcore nazi on the kid. Cut him some slack he was only trying to help.
Your whole post misses the point and is just making excuse after excuse for how you are mistreated. 'I'm just one person, what can I do.' 'I can't make a difference anyway.' 'Blah blah whatever.' You are making excuses, that is what you are doing. Quite honestly, you can say 'You should only do this if you can find pink polka dot socks' and it is as valid as any of your other excuses. Because that's all they are, excuses for why you accept being pushed around and taken advantage of. We agree you are being pushed around and taken advantage of- if you want to keep making excuses, do so, but please do not present them to me or anyone else as they are anything but excuses. They are reasons for not doing something with is clearly and obviously right, which makes them excuses for you to try to escape the problem (and, as I am about to say below, still want to get the benefits of people who don't make so many excuses).
Yes let's let other people do the work of fighting for rights and benefits so that you can reap the reward. Do you think god almighty created the idea of a living wage or created labor laws? No, it was the hard fight of labor that achieved it, and quite frankly it is still very weak in this country (as almighty_gir's last post demonstrated, especially in creative fields). When you make excuses or want the gain without the work, you are just hurting your future and hurting everyone else.
Yes, word travels fast. And see how many job opportunities open up for the guy who stood up in the face of adversity, stood up for what was right and for his coworkers, drew the line and went all in with his job, who coworkers have a newfound respect for, who is clearly designated as a leader and can inspire people. Shitty companies are afraid of these people, but strong companies are made of these people. As I said in my first post- I don't know anyone that has left a company for moral or ethical reasons and been worse off for it, precisely because it shows such a strength of character and initiative.
Regarding autopsy soldier: thanks guys, didn't want to deal with that crap. Very sage words.
seforin: Yes sometimes you have to leave. But a different person in your situation, or you in a different situation, and the results would have been different. The fact that you failed to affect change in your one instance should not mean you shouldn't affect change when called for in the future, or encourage anyone to shirk that responsibility when it is called for now. I mostly agree with your post though (and am not saying you explicitly encourage the opposite of what I'm saying), I just wanted to call that part out more clearly.
Guy A is cool guy
Guy B is a dick
Most people hire guy A for more money knowing he'll work well in the team and that there won't so much drama down the line.
How is leaving an organization giving away my labor rights or having someone else fight for me? Is the owner breaking labour laws? Nobody has said this.... I have the right to leave and not work... isnt that what your own example under Pixel's quote states... that its a strength of character to leave an organization? Everyone should leave that organization if its that bad, then the owner should have no employees if he treats people unfairly against labor laws.
I think it boils down to how much you are willing to take for that paycheck. Dealing with an abusive boss and a toxic work environment is not productive. I don't give a damn if people stood up with me I wouldn't let my boss treat me like shit. It really boils down to character, are you going to bend over and take it? Or are you going to fight back, and if not gain the respect of your boss and co-workers at least your self respect will be intact?
I know you are getting foot put to ass in this thread, but I gotta agree with you on this, lol!
If the offer goes to Guy A and he is asking too much they might ask him to take a cut.
If the offer goes to Guy B and he is asking too little, they surprise him with a raise.
The point is, by trying to speak to them in a wink and a nod that they are getting a better deal with you, just says "hey I'm desperate, slightly unprofessional. I'm willing to undercut everyone on the team if it will advance me personally". If that's the message you're looking to send by all means wink and nod away. If they hire you under those circumstances, please let everyone know. Because no one wants to work for a place that is run like that. Its nothing but a "my first gig was a nightmare" story in the making.
If you send that vibe during the meet the team interview you'll hit the same brick wall. Despite what egotistical newbies think, we've all worked hard to get where we are, seeing someone walk in and try to devalue that work makes it hard to accept that person. Especially when you know they'll be bitching 6mo about how tiny their pay check is. They'll start looking for a new job so they can make more money and we'll be in the same position we're in right now, having to find a new guy.
So actually, if on the very off chance that two guys are exactly the same, and one is asking lower with a wink and a nod that they're a better deal. I'd recommend passing on them. So we can get someone who is going to be stable and not a drain on our time.
Also if you send that vibe and 6mo later you want a raise (and you will get tired of making peanuts) how hard is that going to be? "But you said you could do the job cheaper? So you lied?" It just makes it that much easier for them to tell you no.
Like Pior said, you'll hardly ever find two candidates that are exactly equal and most of the time it comes down to who is the more talented artist.
And...
Rob for Union President!
Edit:
As for the cock tank thread. We can blow off steam however we like. PC might be a little rough around the edges but at least no one is putting on a sh!t eating grin to try and be someone they aren't. Most of the people here are some of the most professional people you'll ever have the chance to work with. Passing judgment on their off time activities is only looking at a tiny slice of the whole picture.
Autopsy you can't buy that kind of knowledge...well perhaps you can, but whatever you do soak it up.
All I can say is life is too short to not like what you work on or do. Shop around other jobs, consider doing contract work, or make a change in your current situation if you can.
anyways back on topic it sucks bro seems to me that you do the same thing i do when i work on art. Ill stay up until 5 am sometimes working on stuff if im having fun doing it.
Ive never worked on-site before so i dont know how it works with deadlines and such.
but worked on several mods where there were deadlines. but i didnt mind because everyone was having fun doing there work and giving out praise to eachother. In the end that sort of environment helps me work faster and make good art at the same time.
If the mod team said hey finish this on time or we'll kick you off the team i would quit right away as its not a paying job and im doing this for fun not to get stressed out.
I know that working onsite is different and your expected to finish things on time and im all for management telling you to work faster if your not hitting deadlines. But when they expect you to do 10x the work your supposed to and then get mad at you when you dont finish all your stuff on time, thats just not right and i would either quit or take it up with management myself.
But thats not easy to do when you have rent and food to pay for so i can totally understand if you dont want to do that.
Stand up for yourself, a pushover gets nowhere. People that make it in life are usually not smarter or more talented, they are ruthless. Don't be afraid of tomorow, be mindful of today and how you feel about yourself and your situation. If life sux its time for a change, never live to work, work to live. If you feel that your life is all about the job then get a new job. Sucess is not how famous you become in your profession, its how well you take care of yourself and those you care for.
End sermon :P
Somehow I doubt the 2nd or 3rd biggest dev studio in the province would be considered 'small'.
But make sure you have a go at changing it before you give up. A real go... not a passive aggressive complaint under your breath kind of thing. Be willing to have awkward conversations with the management or owners.
I've been able to set myself up to work either in my home or the office. This has been extremely helpful for my sanity and art ability. It keeps me fresh and less stressed. When situations or the management gets to me I'm able to step back and zbrush at home. I highly recommend this if you're able.
Helikon Technologies out in New Westminster back in 2000.
Missed paycheques, Long hours, weekends and the lot.
Long story short LISTEN TO ROB. He knows what he's talking about (BTW I love your posts on thechaosengine).
I'm owed over $8,000 and that's a LOT considering barely made over $30k a year back then.
This kinda stuff that happens a LOT. And it never turns out like you hope. It always ends up with them OWING you lots of money, and you working fruitlessly on something that will never be released.
Don't buy into their stupid guilt trips either.
If THEY did their jobs, you would be paid, and motivated to work.
I do stand up to bullies( and twats) and have affected some changes on occasions, but it's
easy sometimes to carry on complaining and never stop:)
The danger is that the goal of doing nice artwork and getting on with it is substituted by a
desire to take down all the nasty people.
Fellas?
It's a shame they'd rather get rid of the whistle-blowers rather than try and deal with the problem.
Thanks a tonne for all the nice comments guys.
(best of luck)
hope to see you both land on your feet.
lookit ae. cant wait to get abused so he can start the gossip!
shhhhhhh :poly142:
I was watching the youtube post PolyHertz made and couldn't help notice the add that popped as the video ended.
I lol'd. Couldn't have been more appropriate. :poly136:
I've removed any and all posts made by John or Mitch, and any that mentioned Activision. Do not PM or IM me asking me why, it won't be mentioned so save your energy.
Secondly, it is with regret that I removed those posts. IMO it's a service to every professional out there to hear first-hand accounts, biased or otherwise. And, while I think its unwarranted to ever be slanderous towards a company, keeping it objective and on-point can be helpful to both future employees and the company itself. It's a shame when those companies can't see it as such and seemingly take it perfectly.
Imagine, a company that listened to its employees, past or present.
So, with that, this thread is closed. Alternatively, we've a thread going on about 'ideal work environments' some of you should probably read.