Card Collecting: Long Dead?
polycounter lvl 8
It may seem odd that I am inquiring about CCG's, but I have a reason... Somewhere.
My main question is whether or not they appeal anymore, or if they have found their grave. For sure, there are still the ones marketed to children (pokemon) or the ones riding on the coattails of some label or another (doctor who, oddly enough), but what of the more serious ones such as Magic: The Gathering? Are there still those who enjoy the complexity, hiding in dark corners the world over?
This partialy springs from by observations of the 'casual' market, which led me to wonder about the other, older, styles of play that may or may not have fallen under the same axe. How far have things spread? What else has been corrupted?
My main question is whether or not they appeal anymore, or if they have found their grave. For sure, there are still the ones marketed to children (pokemon) or the ones riding on the coattails of some label or another (doctor who, oddly enough), but what of the more serious ones such as Magic: The Gathering? Are there still those who enjoy the complexity, hiding in dark corners the world over?
This partialy springs from by observations of the 'casual' market, which led me to wonder about the other, older, styles of play that may or may not have fallen under the same axe. How far have things spread? What else has been corrupted?
Replies
Just check on craigslist or maybe ebay to see how much collectables have dropped in value, that's a good indication of how much or how many people care about them these days.
The game still has some fan base and collectable market. (not what it used to) I still sell my old cards for "back up" cash when I need to buy a computer upgrade or pay a bill. Yes, Black Lotus still sells for more than some people make in a month and those who claim they have collections worth a few pennies it's because their collection really is shit.
So to answer Elhrrah's question, yes they do have appeal to some people for fun or for that retro feel. Others for different reasons, but the game doesn't have the fan base it used to have. Most of us have grown up and now want to make video games for a living. lol If you ever want partial proof, just go to ebay and look up closed MtG auctions to see final bids and that should help...
So from what I can tell, it is mostly played for the memories, and isn't drawing as many people as it used to. Could the idea be revived? Possibly, but the masses would need to be guided, for as things lay now, they would not reach for it on their own.
Snowfly: I have taken Kongai for a spin once or twice, and I didn't find it all that bad. Doesn't have the same feel as warstorm, for example, but it still functions.
It is good to know that they still play MTG in Norway, Dejawolf, although I must admit that my Norwegian is less than existent.
Now all of this leads up to my next question: Would people go for a new CCG, that aims for the complexity of MTG? Is the population on a CCG downturn, unwilling to reach beyond the bounds of past memories, or would an all-new, all-digital CCG enliven their existence?
I hear the WOW TCG game does pretty well, but I personally like MTG way better.
If you want to start a new TCG game you better make sure there is some breathtaking art on there.
I just tried Kongai it was fun, but I need cards, the digital thing doesn't do it for me.
But what will draw the next generation? Can something draw the next generation? Is the old fun being strangled by the new concepts of casual, or can these cards be dealt?
I agree about the physical/digital argument, but the physical card market feels slightly dominated.
that saying, i had a white/green deck which allowed for an unlimited life/creature combo \o/
The art on magic cards is simply awesome. I has misprinted double sided grizzly bears card.
It feels really good for some reason to slap down a card that completes your long brewing pown strategy.
the thing is, i remember having an elf deck which would allow me to access so much mana within 2 turns, i could get out creatures that should rightfully be endgame. it was always fun to stomp newbies with it, but it was even more fun to come against someone who would be able to counter it. it was always so much more satisfying to have to rely on your long term wit and survivability, and THEN slap down the big cards.
Perhaps the thing that drives away some new players, is the aspect of chance. They perceive a better players perfectly crafted deck as the twisted hands of fate, and feel like they can't win, because for some reason they literally cannot win. Yet how could that be made more approachable without ruining the fun?
it relates to Elhrrah's post.
i had quite a few decks, i had decks which i would use often, my "favorites". i had decks which i didn't use much, or were "unrefined".
my two favorite decks revolved around this setup:
green/white (mostly green).
4xSerra Avatar (a card which has defence and attack values equal to your life, and if it dies is shuffled back into your deck).
6x white land (Serra avatar requires 3 white and 5 other mana)
12x green land
4x llanowar elf (these elves can be tapped for 1 extra green mana)
4x an elf card whos name i can't remember, but could be tapped for 1 green mana per elf in play
4x congregate = instant cast, gain 1 life for every creature in play.
4x squirrel wrangler = tap and gain 1 squirrel for every mana used
4x avatar of might (big assed 8/8 trample beastie)
4x Serras Blessing (attach to a creature, gains flight, and doesn't have to tap to attack).
4x llanowar elite (elf)
4x elvish warrior
4x night elf
basically, my ideal first hand included one green land one of the card i can't remember and one llanowar elf. bring out the land, use its mana to bring out the elf.
second turn, lay a second land (doesn't matter what colour) bring out the card i can't remember using both lands, tap the llanowar elf for an extra mana to bring another llanowar onto the table.
third turn bring another land, which gives me 3 mana from land, 1 each from the llanowar elves, and 3 from the other card, totalling 8, which lets me bring out either an avatar of might, or a host of other elves, depending on what's in the hand.
turn four, by this point i've either got an avatar of might out, or lots of elves, and hopefully a squirrel wrangler. the latter is more fun, as i can use all that mana i can get from the elves to raise an army of squirrels, they're all weak, die in 1 hit, but they can be used to defend me from attacks, and outnumber the enemy, which is cool.
usually by this point i'm running out of tokens for squirrels, but that's fine. because by now i'll be ready to either lay down a serra avatar, and cast congregate, bringing my life, and it's attack/defence up to stupid amounts (thanks to the squirrels), or i can just bring out more elves, more mana, more squirrels, and laugh my way to victory.
the deck was typically a 3/4 turn winner unless i was against someone remotely good at the game, even then it usually ended with me winning.
decks it suffered against were red direct damage (bypassing creatures and attacking my life directly) decks, or blue disrupt decks which kept me throwing cards into my graveyard from my hand.
my trial decks were usually used against newbies to see how refined i could get them =]
i wanna start playing again now
Oh yeah? I'll sell you my collection.
But that's just me geekin out about the current type 2 meta.
I used to play back in Revised. I found one of my old decks which contained quite a few dual lands. Each one of them ebays for 20-30 bucks. Unfortunately my original competitive deck was stolen waaay back when I was a young lad. But if you have old cards I would definitely go through the rares and check their value online. My revised deck (dated around 1997) could easily sell for 500-600 bucks. And of course all the power-9 (mox etc) are all still worth hundreds of dollars each.
And if I haven't geeked out enough I'm currently playing a Mill deck which is hilarious because I beat my opponent by plowing through his entire 60 card deck before I run out of life hah. I don't know much about other CCG's but I see no reason to proclaim magic dead.
All of this is pretty much a case study, for how many CCG players I can pull out of the woodworks. And when I look at the number of replies I have gotten so far, I'd say that my chances are pretty good.
I would have to say that my final standing question, is how much of a turnoff the random aspects can be. In my mind, I compare it to blackjack (not the weapon), looking at the % chance for any one card to be in any one position within the deck. Yet the new player might look at it as trying to find a needle in a haystack, and either getting something shiny, or an arm full of metal is the result.
Expanding into the wondiferous realm of theoretics, in what ways could chance be reduced - but not destroyed - while increasing some of the strategic aspects? If you were to go at it from the ground up, what would you change within your favorite CCG?
starter decks are similarly constructed.
new people don't have the problem of "the card i want isn't coming out!". they have the problem of not knowing which cards are really important, or wanting the big cards right away when really they need to learn how to use each card to their fullest.
It's annoying to say the least, the random aspect of decks. I can only speak about MTG but the biggest gripe within the game is how you can get mana-fucked at any given point. If your deck is shuffled enough you could pick up 3 lands and never pick up another until your dead. But I really don't know how you could change the game to make that better. There are plenty of 'mana-fixers' especially in the new sets so maybe that's what they are doing to fix that issue. The only thing I can think of to change that aspect is to somehow make the game less reliant on mana.
Bit of a side note here, there are a million different types of sanctioned format games of MTG. A lot of outside people think they have to make a deck with the most expensive card and that will win them the game. But the reality is if you play a 'draft' the playing ground is a lot more even. Drafts are also interesting to look at with the chances that things come out. Often in drafts there are no repeat cards, so you really do get that random aspect of the draw. The skill is in how you play off your opponent and survive until you get that one winning card that you put in the deck. And the fun part is that your opponent is trying to do the same thing. (A draft btw is where 8 players sit down and open one pack each, take one card and pass the pack to the next person. Repeat for 3 packs of cards). Drafting is one of the most popular forms of 'live sanctioned' magic.
There's a ton of different games and you'd have to look at each specific one. But changing the rules on one would probably affect all other types of play. The random aspect of the game to me is a big part in your deck construction skills, which at the end of the day should be what wins you the game.
So this was a bit drawn out, but every time I thought of how the rules could be changed or made better I could come up with a different reason why they should stay the same based on all the different ways to play the game.
before each game, split your cards into lands and non-land piles, then fold them so you lay down a land, then 3 non lands on top, then repeat until all cards are folded like so.
then shuffle the deck as per game rules, in front of your opponent. most tournament players work this way.
http://www.thespoils.com/spoils/view.php?pg=media
I hear the art's pretty good too!!