Shoddy games courses.
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Right, I’ve graduated from a Games course and while I was there it wasn’t particularly spectacular and I didn’t take the initiative while I was there to do what I should have – Complain. Now, while I’m no professional with years of industry experience I can still tell when what they’re teaching just isn’t of great worth.
Like I’ve said though, I’m now graduated but I do keep in touch with some of the students who still attend and I continue to hear stories about just how poor it’s being handled. I love to argue and I’m really considering writing a letter or something akin to that to get something done about it. I’m just wondering if I have any authority or right to do so.
I mean, I’m yet to get a job or do anything that shows I know better so my words don’t have any weight behind them. I also know that the concept behind games courses isn’t exactly great, after all there are already courses that teach the fundamentals in the various aspects required better and with more focus. However it still riles me up to see hacks running a course with such incompetence and lack of passion.
Also, just out of curiosity – Is bad mouthing places you’ve previously attended frowned upon?
Like I’ve said though, I’m now graduated but I do keep in touch with some of the students who still attend and I continue to hear stories about just how poor it’s being handled. I love to argue and I’m really considering writing a letter or something akin to that to get something done about it. I’m just wondering if I have any authority or right to do so.
I mean, I’m yet to get a job or do anything that shows I know better so my words don’t have any weight behind them. I also know that the concept behind games courses isn’t exactly great, after all there are already courses that teach the fundamentals in the various aspects required better and with more focus. However it still riles me up to see hacks running a course with such incompetence and lack of passion.
Also, just out of curiosity – Is bad mouthing places you’ve previously attended frowned upon?
Replies
These courses attract many clueless wannabe game designers because they have no idea what they want to do in the future, but all they know is they like to play games. Half of them realize they don't really want to work in the games industry during the 3-4 years, and the other majority end up failing to find a job in the industry anyway because they're not committed enough.
I was one of them clueless people who only played games and felt that the course was a complete waste of time and money. I could go on forever whining about how bad my course was but on the final year of the course I finally discovered my career goal, so I guess in a way it was actually worth it.
Out of interest where did you study?
I was thinking of taking a games deisgn course but the lecture at sand (swansea animation days) games changed my mind.
Neil thompson the art director for sony europe (liverpool studios I think) said they are looking for artists who can draw and know how to use shapes and that 3d was just another "brush", if you know tradional skills the tranistion is easy. It was funny seeing the faces of the games studentswhen he said that:). Then someone asked if he thought swansea was good he started his sentence with "well, frankly" I lol'd.
chris
I'm not certain but I think in the UK theres an accreditation scheme called skillset or something which aims to endorse courses which are actually relevant and upto date and teach the skills needed by the industry and are indeed valued by the industry. It isn't bad mouthing if you say up front its just your experience and opinion of course x at wherever, im sure theres good and bad at every place offering courses.
skillset aproved list- only four and all in scotland,
uk eh the noo!!!
Having no one who can teach the students about Photoshop/Maya beyond the basic UI is weak. I am of the stance whereby people with an interest in games shouldnt be coming onto these courses completely empty handed though. People should at least have a rough understanding on whats going on, not just Final Fantasy 7 fans who are shocked by the reality that fanart doesnt quite cut it. Still, a course has to offer more than just the facilitys.
Chrizz, I just thought it was a matter of professionalism to not kinda... badmouth people, not sure why. We had a guy in from Ninja theory once and he pretty much said it how it is, and spoke nice and casually. I hear later from our student rep who was talking to our tutors after that they thought he was unprofessional and a bit shit. This really fucked me off as he said more of worth in his lecture than we recieved from them in the entire 3 years.
Oh and I was studying at NSAD now Norwich university college of the arts, although i dont have a problem with the school, just the course itself.
When I looked around swansea they had some interesting stuff, they booasted about their computer lab- I was like thats great but what are the teachers like, whats their background, more importantly how can they help me.
I saw the course structure and hardly any drawing classes or tradional art which really
Fixed.
As it is now, i doubt anything you tell them about their course will change anything, there might have been a chance when you wer attending the school, but not now, unless you take it to some newspaper, magazine or online equivalent and reach the mass which might give you a better chance.
Just dig in, and pump out a solid portfolio and get on with your professional carreer, and forget about the past..
Complaining about the quality of the coursework would have gotten you nowhere. It's not like they would have fired all of the teachers and hired new ones. It woulda pissed some people off...that's probably about it.
Like I said though, this industry is all about teaching yourself and taking your own time to learn when you need to learn. There's a ton of information out there, take advantage of it.
Several of my classmates expressed interest in becoming professional 3D animators, and when I asked them how much time they put into practicing animation, the answer was always the same... "none".
Even some of the people who were accomplished traditional artists, sculptors and painters, didn't seem to want to do any computer based work, so I was a bit confused as to why they'd join a course focused on computer art.
Most people seemed fairly nebulous about what they actually wanted to achieve through the course, and what they hoped the end result would be - mostly it was vague answers like "animator" or "designer".
The few people who were focused on their art and their future were, unsurprisingly, the ones who came out of the course better equipped for the real world.
The thing you need to remember about all of these courses is that they're not individually tailored to your specific needs - there are so many different disciplines and career routes, even in a 3-4 year course you could only hope to touch on most of them, let alone actually intensively study and train.
I see those courses as more of a "taster" and to nudge you in the right direction, but at the end of the day, garbage in = garbage out.
I'm not posting this because I believe Games Courses to be the right method, more because of the useless tutors who are getting paid ~30k a year for giving NO advice, feedback or even putting people on the right track.
I've handed out more stepbystep videos, website links and tutorials to the students than the tutors have and I still do from time to time.
I totally agree that this craft is something you do yourself, there are things you cant be taught... like learning to see a certain way when it comes to drawing in 2d - its something you come to see through hours of practice. However, things like software packages can be taught, and it would probably speed up the process if you had tutors who did as little as watch over you while you worked offering suggestions.
JordanW - After my first year there we complained and got our first 2 tutors fired, only to have the head replaced with a part time tutor who was head of "Drawing" - so it actually went from bad to worse.
dammit. yeah, I don't wanna talk bad about my school because I did have a decent time there, but the course itself was surely lacking
There are bunch of reasons for this:
1) Those who can't do, teach.
2) Those who can't teach still get jobs because...
3) ... those in charge don't know anything about what is being taught.
4) No one cares about undergrads except undergrads.
5) Neglected undergrads turn into incompetent grads.
6) Most students don't give a shit.
7) And in general there is a giant legacy of waste, disorganization, and overcomplication that infests the entire academic structure down to its very core.
So ultimately complaining is pointless. If you really want to help people just hammer into their heads that it's up to them to teach themselves and higher education is just an opportunity to do so.
I really just find it frustrating when I see people in positions of power who just arent fit for the job
But really, instead of complaining maybe we can talk about what needs to be changed (or what we would like to be changed)... maybe someone will listen. In my opinion, everything is way to generalized in such a specialized industry... BUT you can't have like 20 courses all focusing on one part, I don't think that would be very cost efficient.
Another issue I find is it seems like most of these schools let in anyone that says "I like games", and sometimes... you may find a diamond in the ruff who will actually bust his or her ass to get into the industry, but most of the time its full of slackers. So maybe there needs to be a clear message out there that these courses only benefit the willing, people who are ready to work during and after classes (specifically after classes) to get somewhere.
Another HUGE issue I see constantly... is these course flaunting that once you are done their course, you will be in the industry... DON'T LISTEN TO THIS! Just because you attended a "games" course, doesn't mean its a one way ticket into the industry.
Now once that is said and done, I do believe that these courses are needed, and will evolve into something that the industry will use much more in the years to come. As things start to get even more technical, there is going to be a point where going to these course will greatly help (hopefully) your understanding, where you will be taught not just how to USE the tech, but hopefully how and why it works as well... so a better understanding can be established... that's what I'm looking for anyways.
Blah blah... sch0ol sux0rz!
And while it may or may not be true that"all" higher education is poorly run, that doesn't mean that it's not worth going to university
However i'd recommend anyone to go uni if not for the beer and debauchery
Coffee hhelps ttoo.
they told me stuff like "maybe you should look for another course" or "are you overreacting and being childish? we arent going to spoonfeed you" eventually I was given a final answer of something like "actually theres only a few of us lecturers and we are doing the best we can". This was not a satisfactory response though it did get the lecturers to take notice of the issue a little and I think we got a few extra lectures out of it. Ultimately nothing much came of it though.
Im still really annoyed with the university and would like to help others by telling them how it is but in the end it was still worth going to university just so I could have the time to learn(teach myself from the internet, thanks polycount! c4dcafe etc) and discover what I would love to do for a job.
I was lucky enough to go straight out of uni into a 3d job, I got the job not based on any university work but based on a demo reel of 3D work I had done during my free time.
Ditto. I like to complain as well but I've realized that if you're pursuing any sort of "art" in college, its not like math where you're taught very specific things. With art theres not always a right and wrong way to do things so the best advice I can give anyone pursuing it in school is this:
You aren't paying to learn, you're paying for access to resources and a community/network of like-minded individuals
Instead try to get into a decent university which has a respected fine art course. Make sure it's one of the ones which focuses heavily on life drawing, painting and stuff like that - not crappy modern stuff like nailing boards of wood together and calling it "Tormentation of My Psyche" or something.
The degree is mainly useful if you plan on working outside your home country - most immigration systems favour degrees quite heavily, and without one you will find it hard to work abroad.
This to me explains the lack of motivation in a lot of students that MoP mentions. They go in expecting spoon fed (the way school has pretty much done up to then), and they feel ripped off when it turns out you need to put in all the effort yourself, and the tutors aren't really going to stress out if you dick about.
Its best to see university for what it is:
1: a large resource pool, of tutor knowledge, peers, library materials and lecture materials
2: a great networking oportunity to meet many friends and future games company employees
3: a chance (possibly a once in a lifetime chance) to spend a long amount of time planning and executing a large scale dissertation project (ugh, with lots of writing. but worth it. I would jump at getting the same chance again)
4: get really drunk!
To anyone yet to attend uni:
In short it is an oportunity, and as such is entirely what you make of it. Tutors will not go out of their way to bestow all their knowledge, they've got demands on them left right and center. you have to pick their brains and show interest. Don't waste the library, it probably has loads of books on specialist subjects. Just whatever you do don't go in expecting them to do the legwork for you, because when you get there you'll be disillusioned
Jackwhat I'm not trying to contradict your complaints by the way, some places I'm sure have a stifling effect on enthusiasm
My head lecturer threatened to sue me for badmouthing the course I was on on a public forum. Be careful :P
I don't know what the situation is in the UK or the USA, but on mainland Europe there are usually more courses than studios per region... In my home region we have about three studios employing about 40 people if I am right, yet there are two educations which release about what, at the very least 30 people a year? Where exactly are all those people going to work?
I have heard plenty of horrible stories throughout the years and I know of many educations where the teachers have never even worked in a game studio yet. For example, one such education has only 1 teacher in their entire team who has ever worked in a studio before, and that was just an internship for a very small local studio. Seriously... While developers are not always also good teachers, I do believe every single teacher has to have at least some actual field experience... You can't teach that what you do not know.
I am diving into teaching myself currently, hopefully I can do better...
My degree , although recognised as a good course, it
was pretty much down to the student to put the effort in and get the most out of it.
I did a BA in scientific illustation and only in the last year did we focus on our
specialisation.
Most of the course was filled up with graphic design modules.
I applied for a games course back in 1997 at LCP and TBH I am pleased I didn't get on it after
seeing the quality of work they knocked out.
One or two of the students did some nice stuff , but on the whole it was too arty farty
Seems that in the uk, Bournemouth consistently churns out industry standard students.
lol that's crazy. You should've just smacked him in the face and told him to stop being a moron.
I attended two colleges; the first for my HnD and the second for my B.A. The teachers in the first place were really good, could easily work in the industry, but they were traditional animators/layout artists, and with the fashion being 3d these days...
The second place was a joke. I can think of one teacher there that had the right to be teaching us anything. The head of our course (animation) had never been an animator, she was a fine art graduate. Worst of all, I ended up with only a pass grade in my degree :poly122: which I am pretty sure has hurt me in at least one interview. The upside of this is that it is still a degree, and I can use it to work abroad with.
That says more about you than the course. My course sucked but no way was I going to settle for mediocrity, if I'm gonna waste 3 years and £12k on this crap then I may as well get a 1st.
It's more personal really, i have this huge gripe with seeing people getting things they dont deserve... it just frustrates me to see them not only do a poor job but to be preachy and defensive about it. Its part of the reason why i want someone with authority to remove them from the position and totally embaress them in the process.
Edit: Yozora, i didnt care what grade i got, i certainly wasnt going to go out of my way to do a ton of backup work. To me a first on a course like that is wasted effort and a test of how well you can adhere to the obscure marking criteria. Youre talking about the sort of course thats harder to fail than do well in.
Now just focus on your goal and make a nice reel and you'll get a job, after all that is all that matters.
If you can adhere to the "obscure marking criteria" and get a first it shows that you are disciplined, you strive for the best in everything that you do and you work well with deadlines and managing multiple projects.
If you just decided to settle for a pass which like you said, takes no effort at all... it only shows your lack of discipline and no positives at all.
How is it a wasted effort? Where else is your effort going to? You dont have a job, you have a ton a spare time, you're under no pressure at all from anything, you might as well spend a bit of that time focusing on the course you're doing - and the rest of the time improving your skills.
Like I said, settling for a pass says more about the person than the course.
Because the course was a total waste of time, effort and money. After 2 years of self-taught HL2 modding, I joined the course and knew more than most of the lecturers. What does that say about the worth of the degree I'd end up with?
If I had spent all my time doing the degree coursework like required, I'd have a piece of paper saying I have a degree, sure, but I'd be nowhere close to industry-ready.
Absolutely. I never blamed my tutors or anyone else for that in my post did I? I take responsibility for my own performances, otherwise it would have been kinda hypocritical to have said what I did in my first post in this thread.
And I gotta agree with Jack. Just out of curiosity Yozora, you been through college? Grading criteria's man...sheesh. I could make the nicest piece of animation, but if it doesn't fill the tutors little abstract irrelevant boxes, someone with a shoddy piece of crap Flash Animation usually got graded higher. If you get a bunch of nutters for tutors, you are screwed.
Thats the perfect counter to what I said yozora, and i agree with what youve said - infact it's pretty hard for me to justify my actions haha. I could be asked in an interview that "if you were working on a game that didnt inspire you, how would you perform", not quite sure how id answer. In a way it comes down to how things benefit me in the long term, I consider any time spent practicing drawing is time well spent regardless of content as thats what I want to pursue.
An example of this is when we had 4months to research anything we wanted and then give a 10minute presentation on it, as well as the body of work. I spent that time doing what i normally did, i.e. Learning anatomy, colour theory and reading up on narrative for my dissertation - that to me was time spent on things that are applicable. My presentation was poor because im a terrible public speaker and I got marked down heavily for that, also, how good my art was didnt even factor into the end result.
My housemate on the other hand practically writes out the entire rulesets for the card games he was studying with screencaps and labels to finally hand in a 60 page document. While he got 69% for that project I dont think he can say it enlightened him and I dont think he got much to take a way from it.
Another friend I have is now working in advertising doing photoreal cars/products - he got a lower mark than me for that presentation and quit a few months before he graduated. Still, he worked his arse off for 2 years to get to that standard, and im sure he'd much rather be where he is now than have a first and be working in Game.
Still, this discussion has been had a lot and I didnt really want to add to the many threads that already exist. I believe in being self taught and not using poor tuition as an excuse for failure, because if someone wants to succeed then theres nothing really stopping them. I guess the best thing I can do for the students on the course is to send them to places like this, hell... you could say that if they were really interested then they'd be here already.
Anyway, its the new year so its time to pull my finger out my ass and get serious, sorry to put on the overplayed record.
I mean, all of these horror stories you guys are giving about instructors with no experience or skill - why didn't you check them beforehand? It's not horribly difficult to find out if a certain professor has actually worked in a studio or shipped a game before, especially because if they have they typically like to broadcast it in order to contribute to the course's reputation. It seems like a rather avoidable mess...
My excuse for doing the game course was simply because I was a clueless WoW-addict with no career goal.
blenderhead; I dont know enough about your animation or the tutors requirements to comment really but you could look at it this way; your tutor is the art director and you gotta do what they want. If you dont follow their requirements then obviously you'll fail. But this depends on how stupid the requirements were of course, gimme some examples and I might agree with you that your tutors were horrible
And jackwhat, if you're talking about the dissertation, those 4 months where you studied something that actually mattered was time well spent. But I dont see how your friend who wrote 60 pages of crap has anything to do with it. Are you implying you can only do well if you write about crap that you're not interested in?
Also getting a first does not equal working in a game store.
The courses are afterall marketed in a way that having a degree from them will get you a job and I was young and naive enough to bite.
It might have been a mistake on my part, I'll concede that, but my main point was that after just 2 years of dicking around in HL2 with a bunch of amateurs with no supervision or prior training, someone would be knowledgeable enough to teach the course and have a superior knowledge the teachers themselves.
(Here's some of the stuff we had to do: http://www.game-artist.net/forums/work-progress/1056-official-pernstejn-olympics-students-teesside.html - this is the thread that got me threatened with legal action :P)
I'm saying that he wrote a shit load of information to explain his research - while he would of had gained a better understanding of game mechanics and the rulesets that the card games have, the time he spent doing all the write up soley to prove he had done the work, is a waste of time. Youre essentially tasked with research but you dont show it by making something intelligent with it, but by copy and pasting it... per se.
Also ofcourse a first doesnt equal a job working in game, but another person on the course currently is. He seemed to have it in his head that because he had a first he was totally qualified to get a job when his work was nowhere near up to par.
What im trying to say is, spending time bettering your skills as opposed to slaving over the tedious briefs is more beneficial. Sure, you can aim to do more than scrape through with a pass but as has been said plenty of times, its your portfolio that counts...
Edit - Ah har! You were there with Sean, hes pretty damn sweet... just saw him post a journal saying that he landed a job at eurocom.
There are plenty of people who do it that way, I don't see what is so weird about attending a course, even if you have been in the modding community for 2 years. Modding is great, but it doesn't teach you everything, and I know that if there was this kind of education back when I was still modding, I would have done the same thing as you.
Obviously you should research an education before you are getting into it, but I also don't think it is entirely fair to put all the blame on the student - "yeah you have researched it, your fault!". It still is a fact that the school offers an inferior education, and that is just wrong. For all I care that is plain and simple false advertising. It is like selling a car that doesn't work. And then who's to blame? The idiot who bought the car and didn't try it out before buying it, or the guy who sold it?
He wants to be a concept artist but is not particularly bothered about leanring to draw. (I dont tell him because I play on his ps3 in lunchbreak) but he's no artist, but could be if he just drew. He decided to buy a wacom intus a4 believing that because many professionals use it it will make him a better artist instead of a pencil and pad. He used it for a couple of photoshop tutorials and then just as I thought would happen it ended up tucked under his desk- 300squid well spent.
I agree for the most part but I dont think all students expect to be spoon fed. I know I didnt expect to be spoon fed, I just expected the course to be intense and worth the money. I expected at least 4 hours of lectures a day with each lecture introducing us to new ideas and concepts and resources which we could further explore in our own time. I knew they got outside lecturers in and they are apparently "industry pros" and the course content sounded great, animation, illustration, 3D, 3D animation etc
What I got was on average probably 7 or 8 hours of lecture a week. In those 7 hours we were exposed to very little that was relevant or useful beyond university. I mean our lecturer in 3D modelling was trying to learn how to 3D model himself the week before he taught it to us. After 6 or 7 weeks of 3D lectures we were only expected to have made a basic model and animated it to kinda move a little. we paid £8000 a year for this! I found ways to learn and get a job anyway but many people wont
Kaskad I do think with hindsight that more research may have helped me avoid this but I dont think thats any excuse for the institutions blantant lack of quality courses.
ahh, that thread brings back (bad) memories...Too bad he didn`t try to sue you that would have been hilarious