Can someone define "a clean model"?
polycounter lvl 14
I am really struggling with this idea of what a "clean model" is. I feel it is holding me back as an aspiring high-poly artist.
Let's look at what employers "ask" for...
http://www.epicgames.com/jobs/character_modeler.html
"Ability to model clean models" it says.
Can someone define what that really means? Now I understand that keeping it all in quads works best for ZBrushing organics or deep dents & scratches in a metal surface...but what about the rest of content creation? Should it really matter what the FINAL integrity of the model is so long as the shading groups look good and show no flaws? That's all that matters IMO before the normal map is baked...
The idea of Sub-D modeling has me so worried about making sure my hard-surface stuff is all in quads that it is taking me away from the "art" and joy of making models that I once had a passion for...but lately it is just starting to feel like a chore. I know how to keep all my loops and rings perfect for making my basic shapes and even nice sharp corners when needed...but when it is time to detail and cut out small angled techie paneling and grooving in various torque screw hole shapes, do I still need to keep it all quads? This is where I start pulling my hair out.
Sometimes I just want to grab the boolean / pro-boolean tools when it comes time to get down to the last minute details...but is this frowned upon?...people are always like "show us teh wirez!"
Even top devs use Polygon Cruncher to get their stuff back into max and that certainly destroys the quad integrity. So should I be so worried about this idea of "clean" whatever that is?
Let's look at what employers "ask" for...
http://www.epicgames.com/jobs/character_modeler.html
"Ability to model clean models" it says.
Can someone define what that really means? Now I understand that keeping it all in quads works best for ZBrushing organics or deep dents & scratches in a metal surface...but what about the rest of content creation? Should it really matter what the FINAL integrity of the model is so long as the shading groups look good and show no flaws? That's all that matters IMO before the normal map is baked...
The idea of Sub-D modeling has me so worried about making sure my hard-surface stuff is all in quads that it is taking me away from the "art" and joy of making models that I once had a passion for...but lately it is just starting to feel like a chore. I know how to keep all my loops and rings perfect for making my basic shapes and even nice sharp corners when needed...but when it is time to detail and cut out small angled techie paneling and grooving in various torque screw hole shapes, do I still need to keep it all quads? This is where I start pulling my hair out.
Sometimes I just want to grab the boolean / pro-boolean tools when it comes time to get down to the last minute details...but is this frowned upon?...people are always like "show us teh wirez!"
Even top devs use Polygon Cruncher to get their stuff back into max and that certainly destroys the quad integrity. So should I be so worried about this idea of "clean" whatever that is?
Replies
So in other words, "contiguous flowing" means keep it all in quads no matter what? I have no intention of making "messy" as I stated above...should the final model matter so long as the shading groups show no errors?
EDIT: nvm, I think I know what you're saying.
You want to make sure that your low poly reads in game, lights properly in whatever engine youre company uses and isnt wasting tri's and causing system meltdowns. Keeping a game ready model in quads is not necessary nor needed. You can have tris but avoid n gons and bad flowing topology, which you can still do with tri's. This also varies between environments/props and characters or things that need deformation. If your object needs to animate and deform then the topology needs to be a little higher nd much cleaner to allow the deformation. It is also a question though of it depends on the situation.
To be honest, you lost me there. I think it should go without saying that the lower poly version has correct form for deformation.
Link?
booleans are fine, but you need to clean them up afterwards- most of the time they will leave lots of little polys and edges that are useless and will cause nightmares rigging..
if you know what looks messy, look at that and do the opposite
edit: not sure if anyone already mentioned, but poly crunch will not be used on actual game assets, that will only be for the high poly model that gets baked down to normal map. the high poly model does *not have to be clean, so long as it shades correctly (although it might help in some cases)
Indeed. Thanks.
Yes I am specifically talking about high-poly in this thread.
How can the lower poly have correct form for deformation if the high-poly does not? The only thing you are defining on a game-rez model is topology. If it doesn't already have everything else correct then it will not be as good as it can be. This normally passes fine at most studios (low-poly model adjustment after the fact), but I would seriously doubt you could be a sculptor at Epic if your stuff ever needed fixing in the low-poly stage.
You build the lowpoly over the highpoly, and make sure it has the right amount of rings for deformation on limbs, and make sure nothing collapses. What does this have to do with the highpoly? Topology-wise, if everything's in order, the highpoly has no significance on the way the lowpoly deforms.
You can have the best shoulder topology in the world, but if the forms aren't in the right place it will never look right when it deforms. I suppose some of this is common sense and won't be an issue with perfect anatomy- these aren't really issues on human-like characters because we know very clearly what the forms are 'supposed' to look like, so we don't run into these problems. But I've skinned up many creatues or garments where I look at it and say 'that's awesome' and then get to a certain part of it and say 'how is that supposed to deform?' It isn't a question of topology as much as it is a question of the underlying form many times (more often it is topology though). And things like that are problems in the sculpting stage. Loard knows they usually deform 'well enough' to not make changes or to adjust the low-poly after-the-fact, but that isn't the point.
Add to this the fact that most games have a handful of rigs they use for all characters (especially bipeds), and yes, it is very important to have forms and mass placed correctly on your high poly. Aside from what I mentioned above in a more abstract sense, I've had many models (including from our senior guys) where they weren't modeled intelligently for the rig they needed to go on. Or elaborating on the garments mentioned above, I've had to shrug my shoulders many times when we get garments where they'll put something rigid where it cannot go, for practical/deformation reasons. We're not simulating muscles and skin yet in real-time so understanding deformation is essential when planning the models and making the high-poly, or things will be where they shouldn't, even if they look great in the sculpt pose.
:poly136:
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=54311
That stuff is ace. I was asking for shortcuts but it looks like you just tough it out keeping it all in quads mostly. How long does some of that take you?
I'd love to see teh wirez.
EDIT: The more I look at that stuff the more jealous I get...lol Amazing work dude. So I take it you do some of that stuff in patches & nurbs? You talk about the Surface & Cross Section modifiers...I'd love to see a tutorial by you making one of your objects. I'd pay top dollar for it actually...