Lol, so if there's some kind of angry response or rioiting they should use assault rifles and grenades?
"That kind of training seems a bit out of line for the unit's designated role as Northern Command's CCMRF (Sea Smurf), or CBRNE Consequence Management Response Force. CBRNE stands for chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear and high-yield explosive incidents. According to Northern Command's Web site, the CBRNE Consequence Management Response Force is a team that will ultimately number about 4,700 personnel from the different military branches that would deploy as the Department of Defense's initial response force. Its capabilities include search and rescue, decontamination, medical, aviation, communications and logistical support. Each CCMRF will be composed of three functional task forces -- Task Force Operations, Task Force Medical and Task Force Aviation -- that have individual operational focus and mission skills, the Web site says."
The question is WHY are they training with these non lethal weapons when their job is support, logistical, search and rescue and decontamination.
The question is WHY are they training with these non lethal weapons when their job is support, logistical, search and rescue and decontamination.
Rescue and decontamination also involves quarantine in the event of a biological attack. The use of force may be necessary in the event someone does not wish to comply with a quarantine.
Edit: There really is no conspiracy or secret to this part. A chemical, nuclear, or biological attack would be a very stressful, unpredictable event for a lot of people, and some people are going to behave aggressively, irrationally, and unpredictabley in these scenarios, and there are going to be quite a few people who just outright panic.
True, that makes sense, some people will not go to quarantine quietly, especially if they view it as a death sentence and view themselves as "healthy".
But considering they answer solely to the commander in chief, and I hold all of his actions as of late with a high degree of suspicion, this also makes me question his motives. Sure its a stretch right now to think he would use them willy nilly on the American public. But hes done a good job of moving the pieces into place for some really messed up shit to go down. I have to wonder why he keeps up the fear and panic machines instead of calming things down, it might move closer to a reality. Hopefully he's not 100% bat shit nuts and he'll go peacefully.
What kind of scenario can you think of ends with Bush using soldiers on US citizens in the next three and a half months? I think he's an incredibly shitty president, but I think he's shown more that he's just amazingly inept rather than a diabolical genius or something.
Anyway, checks and balances are still in place to handle even something like that. If the president goes batshit loco, congress can impeach him and conviction automatically removes him from office. The military isn't going to take orders from a president in prison for treason.
supror, authorities shot tear gas at me for trying to walk home from school during the WTO riots in Seattle. They chased after a women who was running 'away' from the riots and sprayed her with something, she fell on the ground crying. I saw this with my own eyes.
American riot control is pretty brutal, I've experienced it myself. Don't be so sure that we're all that 'civilized' in the west.
When push comes to shove, every establishment will strip us of our rights. Even the hippie Canadians, I've experienced that too.
Smaller countries, smaller cities, different bases of soldiers, different command structures.
Applying history is all well and good, but it only works if you understand what makes forces like this tick. A whole combat brigade? Not gonna follow orders that dont make sense. An american force? Not in a home city, we're some of the most blindly nationalistic people in the world.
Military history is actually really interesting, and understanding it will let you see the contradictions and poor logic on both sides of the fence's political arguments.
Let's assume hypothetically that there is martial law, and the general populous is pretty upset. There will likely be some sort of demonstration, peaceful or not. It could very well turn into something more violent. In the event of a riot - and there have been some far crazier triggers for riots (Guns 'N' Roses, anyone??) - people are just going to be going crazy. (Were martial law in place, people are likely going to be more on edge to begin with.) One thing leads to another, soldiers may begin to feel threatened, and I think any large angry mob is threatening. A group of enraged people (american or not...) are probably seeing these soldiers as their enemy in this situation. Suddenly it's us against them, and you could see some violence unfolding between american troops and citizens.
Now, getting to the point of declaring martial law... that's another story...
I'll be the first to say that it's kinda far fetched, but I think to say it couldn't happen is a little naive.
1968 democratic convention in Chicago? Kinda similar.
@pak and frostymoose: Riots sucks for both sides, what do you expect? Seriously, it's going to go badly if it comes to that. Second guessing them for being prepared for it is stupid, because of that fact. I completely agree that it's undesirable but what do you expect? them to show up unarmed and unarmored?
If your interested in controlling crowds use the people who have always been trained. If that isn't going to work we have the national guard. Not the presidents personal army. Bush has his cronies threatening marshal law, its not a big step to think if things get even the hint of batty he's going to play that card. Elections get suspended in that case...
There's a difference between clearing a park of "terrorists" and clearing a bunch of rowdy protesters. There's a difference in retraining soldiers (who where trained to kill first) into cops who are trained to use any means necessary not to kill. Yes, cops bang heads in riots what the hell is the army going to do?
yes bush is a fuck up and I don't think he'd actually declare marshal law for the hell of it, but if you asked me 9 years ago that we'd invade Iraq again, or that legislation like the patriot act would be passed I would have thought you where nutty.
Heh, lets face it he's no longer in the running for the "best president ever" award but he can still be the worst. Whatever you're good at, be the best. Too bad Bush (and his handlers) are really good at being the worst...
If America votes for another president from the "save us from the fear you created" ticket it really is as fucked up as everyone thinks.
If your interested in controlling crowds use the people who have always been trained. If that isn't going to work we have the national guard. Not the presidents personal army. Bush has his cronies threatening marshal law, its not a big step to think if things get even the hint of batty he's going to play that card.
You're right, one combat brigade can totally put a nation under martial law, my bad.
Heh, well if we pay attention to what we're reading I was asking why use a brigade when we have local and state response units, and the national guard. Why put combat trained troops on the ground? I'm not suggesting hes going to invade the US with his army of 5,000 troops but seriously somethings are best handled by local profesionals not full fledged millitary units. While they sit on their ass and play with microwave ray runs we could be using them in areas we actually need them. So much waste on retarded stuff.
As for the microwave ray gun it has so many holes I doubt it will ever make it out of the testing phases.
- The damage it could do to someones eyes is insane.
- The basic idea is "feel pain move away from the invisible beam" that's great, which way do you run? How do you find out with out opening your eyes?
- The pain you feel is the water in your cells boiling... The beam shuts off before it can cause any lasting damage. Until they fire it 20 times into a crowd that doesn't understand that the front line is being cooked...
- It will only work on the first line of protesters, obviously someone hasn't been in a mob, the first row normally doesn't have much of a choice in movement except forward or no where.
- It's not hard to shield yourself from microwaves, bust open a water main or fire hydrant and the spray will absorb the microwaves. Hell just stand behind someone, or something. Wear the right cloths... so many holes and so many ways its almost useless. Glad we spent our money well...
Well, vig, you asked a good question. Why would you want a single federal brigade, trained to handle relief and riots? What possible utility could they have?
... oh, yeah. Exactly what the government says they're for, specific deployment anywhere in the country in the event of an immediate 'disaster' situation. I'm not saying i like the idea -- if we had the budget for it, it would be much better to leave this in the hands of the national guard, but we cant have a brigade in every state trained and ready for this stuff, and it costs too much to maintain. Why not just have one unit you can deploy anywhere?
And ADS actually works quite well, it's rather late in the testing phase (maybe field testing already? if not, soon) unless it's deployed against a group of people who are equipped and prepared for it, it works exactly as intended.
And people don't come to military positions wearing microwave proof clothing unless they have serious intent, at which point nonlethal force becomes a little bit less of the focus.
I think the most significant point of the Martial Law discussion is the fact that disturbing and potentially harmful precedents are being set. The reason why Posse Comitatus Act was created was to prevent abuses of power by the state. It's now been overturned. And when one explores some of the other laws that have been passed over the last 8 years.......
- Patriot Acts
- Military Commissions Act
- NSPD 51
- Protect America Act
- Homegrown Terrorist Act
It can make one wonder what the true agenda is. Take into account the infrastructure that is being created to enforce these laws.....
Dept Of Homeland Security
FEMA
Real ID
Fusion Centers
Infragard
Choicepoint
Northcom
And in 5 or 10 years, we may potentially be at the mercy of our government.
Realistically, I seriously doubt the current administration would flip the martial law switch. There is no real infrastructure to support it. What would be the point? (Although it woldn't surprise me). The thing is, when Bush is gone, these laws and infrastructures will remain. And as long as the "War On Terror" continues, this agenda will most likely continue. This appears to be a more of a long term plan. I would guess that this is the foundation being laid for the North American Union..........
Who needs homegrown soldiers or national guard when mercenaries are so much easier to control. They aren't bound by any sense of loyalty to kin or country - some of them aren't even from the US. They are free agents willing to do whatever job you assign them no matter the moral issues.
Good news everyone! They are expanding their locations within the US so deployment will also be a non-issue. =]
Corporate armies make so much more sense logistically. They look after their own, meaning no post traumatic stress or war injuries or education funds to worry about compensating for. They are completely self sufficient and still funded by the taxpayers. When every other institution is being privatized it makes perfect sense. They are also largely unaccountable for their actions apparently. Codes of conduct? ROE? Civilians? Fuggit! 'Everything is a target' is a much easier set of rules to abide by.
Interesting stuff. I'm really curious to see how their role pans out in the US and abroad in the next 5 years. I'm also curious about how americans feel about mercs being used within their own borders and as compliments to their own soldiers in foreign combat - especially since their deployment ratio is growing closer to 1:1 with enlisted troops if this guy's numbers are accurate. Either way, they are definitely being used more today than in the past.
Gwot has a point! Fattkid, you do too, i agree with you guys; i don't like the balance of powers or our individual rights being threatened by fear mongering propaganda. i'm just saying being scared of this one little step is pointless. It cannot do any harm, unless we buy up a mercenary force, or redeploy a hell of a lot more brigades.
The Dept of homeland security, while scary with its 'men in black' tone and unfair balance of powers, isn't actually that menacing either. While it's definitely not as a citizen how i'd like to see things organized (it would be great if we abolished or limited it and replaced it with something a little bit cleaner) more of a puzzle piece in the one good thing this administration has done. Military and intelligence reform, and a lot more sharing of information, wisdom, strategy, and resources between our agencies. Who knew Rumsfeld would turn out to be the one redeemable character in the 8 bush years?
One thing about mercenaries, gwot -- Their role is definitely not going to be as big short term as some people expected a few years ago. Blackwater was really in the position to become something huge, about ready to try and pursue deals with the UN as a peacekeeping force (something which there's a lot of logic behind actually, the UN's fractured chain of command has made military deployment in the past a disaster) ... until they got kicked out of iraq. Losing that much business is going to put a damper on any growth schemes.
Replies
Rescue and decontamination also involves quarantine in the event of a biological attack. The use of force may be necessary in the event someone does not wish to comply with a quarantine.
Edit: There really is no conspiracy or secret to this part. A chemical, nuclear, or biological attack would be a very stressful, unpredictable event for a lot of people, and some people are going to behave aggressively, irrationally, and unpredictabley in these scenarios, and there are going to be quite a few people who just outright panic.
But considering they answer solely to the commander in chief, and I hold all of his actions as of late with a high degree of suspicion, this also makes me question his motives. Sure its a stretch right now to think he would use them willy nilly on the American public. But hes done a good job of moving the pieces into place for some really messed up shit to go down. I have to wonder why he keeps up the fear and panic machines instead of calming things down, it might move closer to a reality. Hopefully he's not 100% bat shit nuts and he'll go peacefully.
Anyway, checks and balances are still in place to handle even something like that. If the president goes batshit loco, congress can impeach him and conviction automatically removes him from office. The military isn't going to take orders from a president in prison for treason.
Order 66
American riot control is pretty brutal, I've experienced it myself. Don't be so sure that we're all that 'civilized' in the west.
When push comes to shove, every establishment will strip us of our rights. Even the hippie Canadians, I've experienced that too.
you shuttup or i will punch you square in the face!
Do you hear me????
in the face!!!
Let's assume hypothetically that there is martial law, and the general populous is pretty upset. There will likely be some sort of demonstration, peaceful or not. It could very well turn into something more violent. In the event of a riot - and there have been some far crazier triggers for riots (Guns 'N' Roses, anyone??) - people are just going to be going crazy. (Were martial law in place, people are likely going to be more on edge to begin with.) One thing leads to another, soldiers may begin to feel threatened, and I think any large angry mob is threatening. A group of enraged people (american or not...) are probably seeing these soldiers as their enemy in this situation. Suddenly it's us against them, and you could see some violence unfolding between american troops and citizens.
Now, getting to the point of declaring martial law... that's another story...
I'll be the first to say that it's kinda far fetched, but I think to say it couldn't happen is a little naive.
1968 democratic convention in Chicago? Kinda similar.
This is just my take. educate me
Dude, that's 5 mins in the box, with an additional 2 for instigating.
I know that second rule might suck, but that's how we roll up north.
It seems the only times we ever riot up here are related to either hockey, or Guns n' Roses.
There's a difference between clearing a park of "terrorists" and clearing a bunch of rowdy protesters. There's a difference in retraining soldiers (who where trained to kill first) into cops who are trained to use any means necessary not to kill. Yes, cops bang heads in riots what the hell is the army going to do?
yes bush is a fuck up and I don't think he'd actually declare marshal law for the hell of it, but if you asked me 9 years ago that we'd invade Iraq again, or that legislation like the patriot act would be passed I would have thought you where nutty.
Heh, lets face it he's no longer in the running for the "best president ever" award but he can still be the worst. Whatever you're good at, be the best. Too bad Bush (and his handlers) are really good at being the worst...
If America votes for another president from the "save us from the fear you created" ticket it really is as fucked up as everyone thinks.
This:
http://www.defense-update.com/products/a/ads.htm
[ame]
You're right, one combat brigade can totally put a nation under martial law, my bad.
As for the microwave ray gun it has so many holes I doubt it will ever make it out of the testing phases.
- The damage it could do to someones eyes is insane.
- The basic idea is "feel pain move away from the invisible beam" that's great, which way do you run? How do you find out with out opening your eyes?
- The pain you feel is the water in your cells boiling... The beam shuts off before it can cause any lasting damage. Until they fire it 20 times into a crowd that doesn't understand that the front line is being cooked...
- It will only work on the first line of protesters, obviously someone hasn't been in a mob, the first row normally doesn't have much of a choice in movement except forward or no where.
- It's not hard to shield yourself from microwaves, bust open a water main or fire hydrant and the spray will absorb the microwaves. Hell just stand behind someone, or something. Wear the right cloths... so many holes and so many ways its almost useless. Glad we spent our money well...
... oh, yeah. Exactly what the government says they're for, specific deployment anywhere in the country in the event of an immediate 'disaster' situation. I'm not saying i like the idea -- if we had the budget for it, it would be much better to leave this in the hands of the national guard, but we cant have a brigade in every state trained and ready for this stuff, and it costs too much to maintain. Why not just have one unit you can deploy anywhere?
And ADS actually works quite well, it's rather late in the testing phase (maybe field testing already? if not, soon) unless it's deployed against a group of people who are equipped and prepared for it, it works exactly as intended.
And people don't come to military positions wearing microwave proof clothing unless they have serious intent, at which point nonlethal force becomes a little bit less of the focus.
- Patriot Acts
- Military Commissions Act
- NSPD 51
- Protect America Act
- Homegrown Terrorist Act
It can make one wonder what the true agenda is. Take into account the infrastructure that is being created to enforce these laws.....
Dept Of Homeland Security
FEMA
Real ID
Fusion Centers
Infragard
Choicepoint
Northcom
And in 5 or 10 years, we may potentially be at the mercy of our government.
Realistically, I seriously doubt the current administration would flip the martial law switch. There is no real infrastructure to support it. What would be the point? (Although it woldn't surprise me). The thing is, when Bush is gone, these laws and infrastructures will remain. And as long as the "War On Terror" continues, this agenda will most likely continue. This appears to be a more of a long term plan. I would guess that this is the foundation being laid for the North American Union..........
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=403d90d6-7a61-41ac-8cef-902a1d14879d
Good news everyone! They are expanding their locations within the US so deployment will also be a non-issue. =]
Corporate armies make so much more sense logistically. They look after their own, meaning no post traumatic stress or war injuries or education funds to worry about compensating for. They are completely self sufficient and still funded by the taxpayers. When every other institution is being privatized it makes perfect sense. They are also largely unaccountable for their actions apparently. Codes of conduct? ROE? Civilians? Fuggit! 'Everything is a target' is a much easier set of rules to abide by.
[ame]
[ame]
[ame]
Interesting stuff. I'm really curious to see how their role pans out in the US and abroad in the next 5 years. I'm also curious about how americans feel about mercs being used within their own borders and as compliments to their own soldiers in foreign combat - especially since their deployment ratio is growing closer to 1:1 with enlisted troops if this guy's numbers are accurate. Either way, they are definitely being used more today than in the past.
The Dept of homeland security, while scary with its 'men in black' tone and unfair balance of powers, isn't actually that menacing either. While it's definitely not as a citizen how i'd like to see things organized (it would be great if we abolished or limited it and replaced it with something a little bit cleaner) more of a puzzle piece in the one good thing this administration has done. Military and intelligence reform, and a lot more sharing of information, wisdom, strategy, and resources between our agencies. Who knew Rumsfeld would turn out to be the one redeemable character in the 8 bush years?
One thing about mercenaries, gwot -- Their role is definitely not going to be as big short term as some people expected a few years ago. Blackwater was really in the position to become something huge, about ready to try and pursue deals with the UN as a peacekeeping force (something which there's a lot of logic behind actually, the UN's fractured chain of command has made military deployment in the past a disaster) ... until they got kicked out of iraq. Losing that much business is going to put a damper on any growth schemes.