No, its not. its nearly fucking white dude. The normals in that shot are fucked, i have no idea how he got to that point but whatever the process is its WRONG.
Fair enough, I agree it's too white, but the distortion is gone. I thought that was progress, but I'll step off if I'm that off base. My appologies to Talbot and anyone else I've misled or fucked up.
Earthquake: If what you said is true, then you have saved me from going down a bad path. Before I go further I want to say thank you for helping me. And for some reason everything you are saying is making sense to me. I know what I need to do and hopefully I will have another render within the next half hour.
No Problem. I'm the first to admit I don't have as intimate a knowledge with normal baking as a lot of people around here do. If I'm wrong, I have no problem letting those more knowledgable types take over. I just saw Eric getting a little frustrated at first and figured I'd try to help out.
Sorry it took so long... I had some things come up and then when I started to work on it I decided to model it again... for the 7th time... Well atleast I feel comfortable with the tools used now.
Ok. So I didn't know exactly what to do so I tried variation that I could think of. Hopefully one of them is correct.
First I got rid of some of the random dots (and the missing left side edge).
Second, I did try to make the range higher but lets just say that didn't work and I won't add a screenshot.
Third, I made my first attempt at adding texture.
(looks like metal but doesn't have the worn down feeling)
Last one I tried, I took a scratched metal texture, turned it into a normal map, put it on top of the original normal map (touched up version) and then lowered the opacity.) I think it turned out very nice.
Edit... I also see that your scratches are looking like ridges instead of grooves. You need to make sure each normal map layer uses the same "lighting" directions... in the case of your grate that's the red channel pointing to the left, and the green channel pointing downward.
I can see your scratches texture has its green channel facing upward (looks like lit from above) while your grate holes have their green channel facing downward (looks like lit from below).
Oh. I did think I was moving on to the entire material just yet. I thought I was still just on the normal map. Here is an updated version of the normal map. It still needs work but I fixed the overlay problem and also the green channel.
I also made an alpha map and applied that. Then rendered to see where I was.
In the CGsociety tutorial, he uses a scratch brush to ware down some of the jutting out spots. I have been looking (searching google) for a while now and I can't find a brush like that. All I keep getting a brushes that are like stamps of a bunch of scratches. Does anyone have a brush like the one that he was using. I was thinking that I would make the tops more worn down but if that's not what you would do let me know.
The second tutorial that you gave me is amazing by the way. The first one I have just touched on the painting section a little bit.
Edit: I just realized that the vertical bars in the render are very thick. Do you think I should keep it like that or scale the opacity holes up?
Hey, you can make your own brushes. They're just black and white images that you then define a brush off of.
The shape of your holes is a little odd, though kind of gives it an interesting look. I had expected the hole to make a more even bevel on each side. i.e. 3-5 pixels in from each bevel.
The key to making believable models and textures is to use reference of real-world things. The best environment (and character) artists use reference photos to dissect how things can be recreated, and extrapolate from those photos to create their own goals. Sounds to me like you're just winging it, like you're not exactly sure what you want. Get some photos of grates, post them and we'll see where to go from here.
This isn't what I a aiming for before I started to look for a reference but I like the texture on it. I know the geometry isn't the same but I think the texture would look good.
I'm going to try and make the bars the same thickness now.
Well good point about it not being worn much, because it's up against the wall.
The story arc of this thread really brings it home just how important it is to invest some time in design/concepting at the very start of a project. If you don't have a clear idea of where you're going, you'll almost never get a great result.
I say almost never because once you're more experienced, the less concepting you need, the more you can just wing it. Probably not what you want to hear though.
Edit... the solution here is to gather a ton of reference, do some sketching, play some games with similar enviros, get inspired and understand exactly what you want to do with your piece.
I was surprised to see how similar this model is to mine. The only thing is that I don't like how shiny it is.
This is more of the material I want... only more high res. I like how it isn't too worn down but it also isn't new.
Here is three photo references. I would like to mix the first two but have more of the first one. I'm thinking it would come out to look like the third photo. Also on the third one I don't want to include the large darker spots.
In the last four pictures I was looking at the texture... not the geometry. I just want to make that clear so you don't think I all over the place with the geometry.
Hope this is enough so you can point me in the right direction. I'm thinking I would now go to the cgsociety tutorial you showed me but some of the steps seem like they aren't needed for this (for example: adding more worn down contact points).
This is fine reference if you're just making the grate, but I really meant you should figure out what you want to do with the environment as a whole. That will help guide you toward making the right decisions for each individual asset.
But if you're just making the grate, the three photos all show wear/damage along the leading edges. So Stefan's ideas for wearing down the metal is still applicable to your grate. You just have to finesse it.
For you to make a quality environment art piece for your portfolio, you're going to need an overall concept for the scene, a unifying painting (or two). This is why we use concept art in game development.
This list of individual texture choices isn't going to cut it, because your env will end up looking like a hodge-podge, without a unified theme or goal.
If you can't paint, then gather photos of environments.
Take a good look at the Env Concept Artists thread for inspiration. Just don't grab one of their pieces and recreate it in 3D, unless you ask for permission first, and clearly label your work as inspired from so-and-so's concept.
Also I just saw Marc-Antoine Hamelin's portfolio (Marcan here on the boards). Really beautiful work. This is a great standard to work towards. If your work approaches this quality you won't have any trouble getting a job.
Ok I understand. And no... I cannot paint well... haha.
So I decided to gather pictures of what inspired me. Probably should have done it sooner.
This is taken from Halo 3 Campaign: Crow's Nest.
I would try and draw something but it really wouldn't look how I would want it to. I took a look at something of the concept artists and it was pretty amazing. I also took a look at Marc-Antoine Hamelin's Portfolio and was amazed. I played Army of Two and thought that the environments were really nice (sadly I thought the story and gameplay needed some work, but I'm not going to make a big deal about it).
I would also like to note that I'm going to school this Saturday. Classes don't start until Monday but I'm worried that I won't have as much time when homework starts kicking in. I'm thinking that a timeline/list of steps would be very helpful. Then I can try and designate sometime each day to work on this and always know what the next step is. Eric, would you be willing to give me a summary of the steps you take when you start on an environment? It can be as detailed or as general as you want. Here is a rough idea of what I'm thinking.
1. Gather concepts and reference photos. This includes reference photos for all of the materials in the scene.
2. Basic geometry.
3. High poly Geometry.
4. Bake Normal Maps from high poly geometry.
5. Gather and edit textures.
6. Finalize Normal maps and textures.
(Hopefully you get the idea.)
I just think that it would be helpful for staying organized and also be an insight into how the "average" person works.
I'm crunched for time right now, with finding a new job and all, maybe someone else can help you out. But for workflow info, you can start here: http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryEnvironment
I know it still needs the alpha map but that isn't my problem. My problem is that I don't know where I should add wear. If people haven't walked over it a lot then the amount should be too much. I was thinking about adding a little on the sides to show that people take the grates off to get to the pipes often. But I really don't know.
Could someone please highlight areas on this image to show me where they think the wear should be? (lots of wear's and where's... haha)
why don't you just fire up photoshop (or whatever program) and mess around with your wear and tear? I know you're learning and the technical stuff needed exact instructions (totally understandable), but now you're getting close to the actual "art" and you can't always expect people to tell you exactly what to do all the time. Use your picture references and start applying it to what you have, or just experiment. And then post and you'll get more helpful information than just an answer to "tell me where to put my wear and tear"
"If people haven't walked over it a lot then the amount should be too much. I was thinking about adding a little on the sides to show that people take the grates off to get to the pipes often. But I really don't know."
yes you do. You've thought about it, and you've reached a reasonable conclusion. Employ it.
Everyone has to reach a point where they can stop needing spoonfed answers, the quicker they get there the better imo. Fuck me, i know people who've worked in the game industry for 15 years and haven't hit that point yet, so used to they of being fed everything they need like baby birds in the nest desperately screaming for their mother to puke pre-digested mulch into their mouths, just cos it's easy for them. It's the worst thing that can happen to any game artist, short of pancreatic cancer.
I'm not having a go, you're still starting out ... i'm just sowing seeds, that's all
EDIT - consider what two different people posting more or less the same thing at the same time means
So I decided to gather pictures of what inspired me. Probably should have done it sooner.
Hi Talbot,
when I'm talking to my students over at the 3d school where I'm teaching where they should start on their new environment, I always say the same thing:
Reference.
I'm glad you have now done it, but gathering reference is the first thing anyone should do (besides thinking about what they want to do first, of course!) and it is absolutely key to making something believable to the player, and making your life 10x easier.
What I usually do is this: spend a whole afternoon (if not a day) searching for reference material purely related to what I'll be working on. If I'm doing some underground environment then I'll search for sewers, tunnels, maintenance areas, etc. and everything related to what happens underground. You'll mostly find pipes, machinery, electric panels, maintenance rooms, etc. This way you can find a lot of nice environment reference but you'll also start to build in your head which kind of props/rooms will go in it. Other good references include movies (watch a lot of them) and games (play a lot of them).
These references will also serve you well when it comes time to model the props. I will then file these reference photos in different folders: one for mood (including lighting, colours, composition, and center pieces) one for general reference (materials and how they react to light, props placement, etc.) and one for cross-reference ideas (like this handrail in this library looks great, I'd like to include it in my environment.) And above these 3 folders, I'll put my 2 or 3 best references that will just keep looking at. Every morning before I start working... I fire them up, look at them, get a fresh feel and start working (after coffee, that's mandatory.)
I will then block out the basic shapes really quickly and already start adding a couple lights. This will give you a feel for space and composition. I will not add details in that modeling, I will work on the big shapes though (like pillars and such).
Then once you're pretty happy with this, start modeling and texturing.
Try to remember that you'll be in a production environment. You'll be under strict deadlines and will have to deal with more than art, including level design changes and etc. You will have to produce produce produce. For the 2 days the guy next to you spends on detailing that little prop that's going to be sitting in that corner, you could have modeled a whole room. It's time well spent.
What I mean is you can make that grate look so great, but are you going to look at it that much? How much space does it really take in the end?
If you find yourself stuck on something, try to move on to something else and then come back to it later on. You will probably have found more references and ideas then.
This of course is by no means the absolute way of working, but I find it works well and I think some of these things could help you.
Marcan: Thank you so much for taking the time to share all of that. I knew that reference was important but you have now shown me that it is extremely important. I will get right on it!
one question I have, for both Tumerboy and Marcan, when you say "Block it out", what do you mean exactly?
Ok so I didn't really realize who Marcan is until 2 seconds ago... haha we were just talking about you!
I'm just going to say again that I'm really thankful for you sharing information on how you do environments.
EDIT:
You brought up organizing files... can you explain how you organize all your project files? Do you use the 3ds max project folder or... how do you do it?
But basically, before even starting any art, I will block out the entire level with one single static mesh: a box. I will scale it, rotate, duplicate it, use it for everything. This enables me to work on composition (which is so important when making environments) while still being able to iterate very quickly. Then once this is done, I can throw a lighting in there to get a feel of the colours and the mood.
Once this is locked in my head, I will move on towards starting real modeling and texturing.
Because if it doesn't look good with simple gray boxes, good modeling will not make a good composition.
Marcan:
You brought up organizing files... can you explain how you organize all your project files? Do you use the 3ds max project folder or... how do you do it?
I'm not at the point where I'm going to make a level just yet. I figure I'm going to make a couple small scenes like this one, and then I will start on maybe a UT3 map. I know that doesn't exclude the "blocking it out" concept but I'm not planning on making a big environment this first time around.
God, Max's Project Files are so bloated with extra folders I will never use, that just looking at the file structure it makes, makes me depressed & overwelmed.
At work I have to adhere to what's being done there. But for the most part, it's how I set things up on my own anyway.
Project Folder
-Object Folder
---(maybe a ".Max" file folder here if you're exporting to another format in the "Object Folder")
-Texture Folder
---PSD Folder
If my "Project" is a single object, or prop, I might just put all my textures in the texture folder, and all my objects in the object folder.
If it's a scene, and more complicated with various props etc. I might make folders for those props and various groupable things.
Depending on what you're doing, you might also have a materials folder, or something for lighting? dunno.
I think the most important thing is that you're setting up your files so it's easier for YOU to find things. Dumping everything in one folder gets very confusing, very quickly.
Marcan:
You brought up organizing files... can you explain how you organize all your project files? Do you use the 3ds max project folder or... how do you do it?
I don't think it would be really handy to you if I gave you our exact file structure and how we organize our stuff, but basically it comes down to one thing: can you find your stuff quickly? Time is precious, if you lose it searching for your stuff then you have a problem.
But a good rule of thumb is to have textures in a folder, and models in another.
Replies
If someone is offering help, that's commendable in my book, it's ultimately up to the OP to weed out what's correct or not.
But I think I know what to do. And in my new render I will make the borders thicker.
Tumerboy: I really appreciate that you atleast tried to help me... and you didn't get frustrated with me.
And tumor, i didnt mean to hate on you or anything i just wanted to get this thread cleared up and get him on the right track.
Sorry it took so long... I had some things come up and then when I started to work on it I decided to model it again... for the 7th time...
http://wiki.polycount.net/Normal_Map#Painting
Also added a tutorials section to the wiki.
http://wiki.polycount.net/Normal_Map#Tutorials
First I got rid of some of the random dots (and the missing left side edge).
Second, I did try to make the range higher but lets just say that didn't work and I won't add a screenshot.
Third, I made my first attempt at adding texture.
(looks like metal but doesn't have the worn down feeling)
Last one I tried, I took a scratched metal texture, turned it into a normal map, put it on top of the original normal map (touched up version) and then lowered the opacity.) I think it turned out very nice.
Let me know if any of those would work.
These two tutorials should give you some ideas.
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=46&t=373024
http://www.iddevnet.com/quake4/ArtReference_CreatingModels#head-3400c230e92ff7d57424b2a68f6e0ea75dee4afa
Also you need to use Overlay when blending normal map layers.
http://cgtextures.com/content.php?action=tutorial&name=normalmap
http://www.poopinmymouth.com/process/tips/normalmap_deepening.jpg
Edit... I also see that your scratches are looking like ridges instead of grooves. You need to make sure each normal map layer uses the same "lighting" directions... in the case of your grate that's the red channel pointing to the left, and the green channel pointing downward.
I can see your scratches texture has its green channel facing upward (looks like lit from above) while your grate holes have their green channel facing downward (looks like lit from below).
I also made an alpha map and applied that. Then rendered to see where I was.
In the CGsociety tutorial, he uses a scratch brush to ware down some of the jutting out spots. I have been looking (searching google) for a while now and I can't find a brush like that. All I keep getting a brushes that are like stamps of a bunch of scratches. Does anyone have a brush like the one that he was using. I was thinking that I would make the tops more worn down but if that's not what you would do let me know.
The second tutorial that you gave me is amazing by the way. The first one I have just touched on the painting section a little bit.
Edit: I just realized that the vertical bars in the render are very thick. Do you think I should keep it like that or scale the opacity holes up?
The shape of your holes is a little odd, though kind of gives it an interesting look. I had expected the hole to make a more even bevel on each side. i.e. 3-5 pixels in from each bevel.
I'm going to try and make the bars the same thickness now.
The story arc of this thread really brings it home just how important it is to invest some time in design/concepting at the very start of a project. If you don't have a clear idea of where you're going, you'll almost never get a great result.
I say almost never because once you're more experienced, the less concepting you need, the more you can just wing it. Probably not what you want to hear though.
Edit... the solution here is to gather a ton of reference, do some sketching, play some games with similar enviros, get inspired and understand exactly what you want to do with your piece.
I was surprised to see how similar this model is to mine. The only thing is that I don't like how shiny it is.
This is more of the material I want... only more high res. I like how it isn't too worn down but it also isn't new.
Here is three photo references. I would like to mix the first two but have more of the first one. I'm thinking it would come out to look like the third photo. Also on the third one I don't want to include the large darker spots.
In the last four pictures I was looking at the texture... not the geometry. I just want to make that clear so you don't think I all over the place with the geometry.
Hope this is enough so you can point me in the right direction. I'm thinking I would now go to the cgsociety tutorial you showed me but some of the steps seem like they aren't needed for this (for example: adding more worn down contact points).
But if you're just making the grate, the three photos all show wear/damage along the leading edges. So Stefan's ideas for wearing down the metal is still applicable to your grate. You just have to finesse it.
looks like a bottom of a plastic milk crate.
1:
2. (This is going to need some work. Thinking of adding two columns of bolts on the side edges... after rotating it 90 degrees.)
3. (I would like to add some rust... this is just the base.)
4.
(Grate references included in previous post.)
5.
6.
7... I don't know yet.
This really helped Eric. Thank you for the idea.
This list of individual texture choices isn't going to cut it, because your env will end up looking like a hodge-podge, without a unified theme or goal.
If you can't paint, then gather photos of environments.
Also I just saw Marc-Antoine Hamelin's portfolio (Marcan here on the boards). Really beautiful work. This is a great standard to work towards. If your work approaches this quality you won't have any trouble getting a job.
So I decided to gather pictures of what inspired me. Probably should have done it sooner.
This is taken from Halo 3 Campaign: Crow's Nest.
I would try and draw something but it really wouldn't look how I would want it to. I took a look at something of the concept artists and it was pretty amazing. I also took a look at Marc-Antoine Hamelin's Portfolio and was amazed. I played Army of Two and thought that the environments were really nice (sadly I thought the story and gameplay needed some work, but I'm not going to make a big deal about it).
I would also like to note that I'm going to school this Saturday. Classes don't start until Monday but I'm worried that I won't have as much time when homework starts kicking in. I'm thinking that a timeline/list of steps would be very helpful. Then I can try and designate sometime each day to work on this and always know what the next step is. Eric, would you be willing to give me a summary of the steps you take when you start on an environment? It can be as detailed or as general as you want. Here is a rough idea of what I'm thinking.
1. Gather concepts and reference photos. This includes reference photos for all of the materials in the scene.
2. Basic geometry.
3. High poly Geometry.
4. Bake Normal Maps from high poly geometry.
5. Gather and edit textures.
6. Finalize Normal maps and textures.
(Hopefully you get the idea.)
I just think that it would be helpful for staying organized and also be an insight into how the "average" person works.
Thanks.
http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryEnvironment
I'm going to try and make the grate material using the cgsociety tutorial you linked to in a previous post.
I know it still needs the alpha map but that isn't my problem. My problem is that I don't know where I should add wear. If people haven't walked over it a lot then the amount should be too much. I was thinking about adding a little on the sides to show that people take the grates off to get to the pipes often. But I really don't know.
Could someone please highlight areas on this image to show me where they think the wear should be? (lots of wear's and where's... haha)
yes you do. You've thought about it, and you've reached a reasonable conclusion. Employ it.
Everyone has to reach a point where they can stop needing spoonfed answers, the quicker they get there the better imo. Fuck me, i know people who've worked in the game industry for 15 years and haven't hit that point yet, so used to they of being fed everything they need like baby birds in the nest desperately screaming for their mother to puke pre-digested mulch into their mouths, just cos it's easy for them. It's the worst thing that can happen to any game artist, short of pancreatic cancer.
I'm not having a go, you're still starting out ... i'm just sowing seeds, that's all
EDIT - consider what two different people posting more or less the same thing at the same time means
Hi Talbot,
when I'm talking to my students over at the 3d school where I'm teaching where they should start on their new environment, I always say the same thing:
Reference.
I'm glad you have now done it, but gathering reference is the first thing anyone should do (besides thinking about what they want to do first, of course!) and it is absolutely key to making something believable to the player, and making your life 10x easier.
What I usually do is this: spend a whole afternoon (if not a day) searching for reference material purely related to what I'll be working on. If I'm doing some underground environment then I'll search for sewers, tunnels, maintenance areas, etc. and everything related to what happens underground. You'll mostly find pipes, machinery, electric panels, maintenance rooms, etc. This way you can find a lot of nice environment reference but you'll also start to build in your head which kind of props/rooms will go in it. Other good references include movies (watch a lot of them) and games (play a lot of them).
These references will also serve you well when it comes time to model the props. I will then file these reference photos in different folders: one for mood (including lighting, colours, composition, and center pieces) one for general reference (materials and how they react to light, props placement, etc.) and one for cross-reference ideas (like this handrail in this library looks great, I'd like to include it in my environment.) And above these 3 folders, I'll put my 2 or 3 best references that will just keep looking at. Every morning before I start working... I fire them up, look at them, get a fresh feel and start working (after coffee, that's mandatory.)
I will then block out the basic shapes really quickly and already start adding a couple lights. This will give you a feel for space and composition. I will not add details in that modeling, I will work on the big shapes though (like pillars and such).
Then once you're pretty happy with this, start modeling and texturing.
Try to remember that you'll be in a production environment. You'll be under strict deadlines and will have to deal with more than art, including level design changes and etc. You will have to produce produce produce. For the 2 days the guy next to you spends on detailing that little prop that's going to be sitting in that corner, you could have modeled a whole room. It's time well spent.
What I mean is you can make that grate look so great, but are you going to look at it that much? How much space does it really take in the end?
If you find yourself stuck on something, try to move on to something else and then come back to it later on. You will probably have found more references and ideas then.
This of course is by no means the absolute way of working, but I find it works well and I think some of these things could help you.
Good reference site:
http://www.flickr.com (pretty much all I use)
Good texture site:
http://www.cgtextures.com
Good reference for environment artist:
http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryEnvironment (this is a bible and worth every article of it.)
QFT
My methods are very similar to Marcan's. I spend a good chuck of time just collecting reference. I don't break it down as much though.
Block it out, both models and basic textures, then start refining those into something workable.
one question I have, for both Tumerboy and Marcan, when you say "Block it out", what do you mean exactly?
Ok so I didn't really realize who Marcan is until 2 seconds ago... haha we were just talking about you!
I'm just going to say again that I'm really thankful for you sharing information on how you do environments.
EDIT:
You brought up organizing files... can you explain how you organize all your project files? Do you use the 3ds max project folder or... how do you do it?
My pleasure.
I explained briefly the process on this post:
http://boards.polycount.net/showpost.php?p=843408&postcount=9
But basically, before even starting any art, I will block out the entire level with one single static mesh: a box. I will scale it, rotate, duplicate it, use it for everything. This enables me to work on composition (which is so important when making environments) while still being able to iterate very quickly. Then once this is done, I can throw a lighting in there to get a feel of the colours and the mood.
Once this is locked in my head, I will move on towards starting real modeling and texturing.
Because if it doesn't look good with simple gray boxes, good modeling will not make a good composition.
You brought up organizing files... can you explain how you organize all your project files? Do you use the 3ds max project folder or... how do you do it?
I'm not at the point where I'm going to make a level just yet. I figure I'm going to make a couple small scenes like this one, and then I will start on maybe a UT3 map. I know that doesn't exclude the "blocking it out" concept but I'm not planning on making a big environment this first time around.
Eric: Hope the job search is working out.
At work I have to adhere to what's being done there. But for the most part, it's how I set things up on my own anyway.
Project Folder
-Object Folder
---(maybe a ".Max" file folder here if you're exporting to another format in the "Object Folder")
-Texture Folder
---PSD Folder
If my "Project" is a single object, or prop, I might just put all my textures in the texture folder, and all my objects in the object folder.
If it's a scene, and more complicated with various props etc. I might make folders for those props and various groupable things.
Depending on what you're doing, you might also have a materials folder, or something for lighting? dunno.
I think the most important thing is that you're setting up your files so it's easier for YOU to find things. Dumping everything in one folder gets very confusing, very quickly.
http://tech-artists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=57
I don't think it would be really handy to you if I gave you our exact file structure and how we organize our stuff, but basically it comes down to one thing: can you find your stuff quickly? Time is precious, if you lose it searching for your stuff then you have a problem.
But a good rule of thumb is to have textures in a folder, and models in another.