FINALLY... I got the high poly done. Sounds like an easy process but I did 4 times. Here is the render. I'm planning on adding a light under the grate so you can see the pipes.
The edges are really thin, I didn't do it in my example, but you should make the edge bars at least as thick (if not more) than the inner cross-pieces. Look at your reference again.
Also this is the high-poly mesh for generating a normal map, you'll want to use a normal-mapped low-poly mesh in your environment, not these mega-polygon meshes.
You may want to re-think your design too, since the upper part looks more future-tech, while your grate looks decidely past-tech. Some ideas from Doom 3...
Thanks. I'm sort of confused because you said that the original glass doesn't fit with everything else. So then I went to this to make it use more metal. In my opinion the glass futuristic and with it being worn down it made it fit with the rusty metal.
What do you think it should be? I did look at the doom 3 picture a couple hours ago but I'm now at work and for some reason the picture isn't appearing. Sorry
Oh and if you think I should keep the grate, should I use XNormal, nvidea pugin (from the nextgen texturing dvd eat3d.com) or something else to create (bake, is that the correct use? haha) the normal maps?
Eric's saying that a Metal Grate will fit better in this environment, but the particular grate that you picked, is more like a drainage/sewer grate, and doesn't feel as new and techy as it should. The grate you made looks like it should be made out of cast iron, with larger, chunkier features. This is typical in drainage & sewer grates, and is an older technology/technique. Often you'll see grates of that style, with "Blah Blah Company, 1929" embossed on it.
Something like he posted, that looks more like an access grate for wires/technology would fit better imo. Making it look like stamped metal, or at lesat made out of steel/aluminum would help sell a more modern look.
Ok now I think I understandand I'm going to choose the second one... the good thing is that I think I can model that one. I'm going to try and have the high poly done tonight so ill post another render when it is done. Thanks.
you need a bit more edge control around the t-junctions. Right now they flange out a bit (cross sections get thicker around the t-junctions). Instead of chamfering that inside edge like you have (resulting a diamond shape from the top), add and extra edge loop on each side just near the t-junction. You should get even thickness all the way to the junction and nice rounded inner edge.
I didn't want to ask another stupid question so I just went with the only way I know how to do it. This is probably not the best way to make the loops but I used the slice plane tool and eyeballed the dimensions. Feel free to tell me how you did it.
Not to be rude but, I think it is time to move on from the high poly grate modeling. My next step is to bake the normal and opacity maps. At the moment don't know exactly how to do this but I'm going to start working on that. It would be helpful if someone could tell me how they would do it from start to finish. Thanks.
It would be helpful if someone could tell me how they would do it from start to finish. Thanks.
Sure it would, but you wouldn't learn much would ya? Use the Search button, and use the search term +opacity +bake. Also look at the Normal Map wiki page.
Should my low poly be a plane with holes in it, just a plane or a plane with transparent faces/holes?
The last option. Though you would get a better result if you used a grate design with more of a bevelled look to it, like the Doom 3 examples. Your current design has no "slope" to the cross pieces, so you'll end up seeing only the tops of the bars when it's mapped onto a flat plane.
No, just that it won't translate into a normal map very well, the sides of the cross-pieces won't show up in your normal map because they are at 90° to the low-poly plane. Section 4 of Joao Costa's tutorial illustrates why.
He's saying that, because the top surface of the grate is essentially flat, and the holes are essentially vertical, that the normal map will be almost entirely flat, and thus defeats the purpose of making a normal map.
Personally, Eric, I don't see the bevels on the Doom 3 ones either though.
Yeah I knew what Eric was talking about in the doom picture but I thought that he meant the 90 degree angles in the image below. I don't know why I thought this.
I have an idea to fix what you're talking about. I'll have it done within a couple of hours.
I'm very proud of this... Please tell me that this works. I'm going to get started on the normal map that I will be surprised if I can do without asking for help.
Good job! You're getting it, this is great to see!
I'd make the rim along the very outside edge much thicker, like 2x the width of the inner ribs. Here it looks like 1/2 as thick.
As for learning to bake normal maps, I would suggest following the tutorials that ship with Max, for example: C:\Program Files\Autodesk\3ds Max 2009\help\3dsmax_t.chm > Materials and Mapping Tutorials > Normal Bump Mapping.
I don't really know what happened here... I tried to apply it just to see what would happen. While I learn about applying normal maps maybe someone could tell me why the colors got messed up in the middle.
I have been following a tutorial... not the 3ds max one though. I just fixed the brown patch. I think the thing I changed was the size of the normal map. I did this after I got it to appear in the render and decided to see how it looked with a higher resolution. Now do I add an Alpha map to make the holes?
So I know there are a ton of things that wrong but it is an improvement.
Speaking of stuff wrong... I can't figure out why the vertical bars in the normal are pointing inward. Please just tell me why and not where to find out why. Yes I will learn from it because you will be telling me. If it is somewhere else then just copy and paste it. It really saves me time when I'm getting REALLY sick of this grate.
Another thing that I need to work on is lighting. I'm going to start mixing the education of that with the material stuff I'm learning currently.
Oh and Eric, my next post will include fatter edges on the grates. I just realized I forgot to do that.
Ok so I understand what you mean but I'm having trouble fixing it. I started by getting xNormal and making a new normal map. It was object space also, but it fixed that weird perspective view problem I had in my original Normal Map. So then I used the "Object Space to Tangent Space" Tool that is in xNormal. Now it hasn't finished yet, it is been "saving" it for the past 10 min., but in the preview box it is still looking like an object space map. Any ideas on how I can convert or why the converter is taking so long to "save" it?
Go back a few steps. Your original render (is this in max?)
If so, then your cage is doing some wierd distortion thing. Sure, converting to tangent MAY have fixed it, but you should figure out the root issue, rather than a way to get around the problem.
why convert to tangent when you can render a tangent one ?! are you this lost with something so simple as a grate that for some reason you decided to model ? when you could just bake it and use alpha channels ?
Talbot: not having posted in this thread yet, I think I should tell you that a few people are getting fed up with your inability to use google, and the fantastic Polycount Wiki that Eric spent his precious time updating. I think it won't take long before you irritate them enough for them to give up on helping you altogether. Johny's already getting there, as you can tell.
Go through the wiki, do a few tests, see if you can master the theory behind normalmaps. Also read through perna's end-all normalmap thread, it's a goldmine of useful tips, although I believe Eric has put most of those into the normalmap article on the wiki.
Then, if you've done that, people will be more than happy to help you with any problems, as they were in the beginning of the thread.
But there is still a lot of pink. So then I brought it into xNormal. That made the pink darker. Then I took it into the Nvidia NormalMap plugin in Photoshop. This is what came out of it.
I'm still trying to figure out what the random bumps are. But for a quick solution I touched it up in photoshop and this is what I came up with.
MightyPea: Yeah I was definatly starting to see that. The thing was that up until Tumerboy sent me the link in his last post, I was getting sent to website that what the different Normal Maps were and that was good but I really needed a website that told me the steps to creating the different types. The image that I'm going to show Johny is a good example. I wanted someone to tell me or show me a website where it told me where I pick which type. I still don't know whether there is an actual setting for this or you are supposed to do it like I explained to Tumerboy.
Anyway... yes I will keep that in mind. I hope people realize that I have been using google to find tutorials on making and applying Normal Maps. That is how I learned it actually. I just used the wiki as a Normal map dictionary.
Johny:
I'm sorry that I didn't see the two big buttons infront of me when I made the normal map. I feel like an idiot and kneel before you amazing skills of explaining stuff... oh and your awesumeness.
Your last render is closer to what you need, but you need to render directly to Tangent Space. You should NOT have to do any editing/taking something into XNormal, etc. You should be able to render directly, something you could immediately use on a flat plane to approximate the grate from above. Period.
Also, I'm glad to help, but many useful tutorials, including Poopinmymouth's great normal map baking tutorial, are linked to from both the Be All End All Normal Map thread, and the Polycount Wiki page on Normal Maps.
I know it's alot to wade through, but you would truely benefit from stopping your work on this grate, and simply reading through those pages. You would find links to various useful tutorials, and you would have a better understanding of not only WHAT do do, but WHY you're doing it, and HOW it works.
The problem here is that your highres has HOLES IN IT. Which will give you garbage random colors or some other unpredictable result. What you need to do is this:
First off, You want add some geometry behind the grates, doesnt matter what it is, just a flat box will be best. Dont put it too far back that the trace is going to miss it, just far enough back that it isnt clipping into it.
Now, because you're going to get something rendered on 100% of your image, you need to give each part a different material color. So, apply a flat black material to your lower box mesh, and a flat white material to your upper grate mesh.
Now all you need to do is render a diffuse/color map from those material colors(you can do this in max) and there you have your alpha channel!
The grate mesh should be on its own smoothing group totally flat, not getting smoothed or even attached to other meshes.
The distortion issue is either a totally screwy cage(really there is no need to even use cage on a mesh like this, offset is enough) Or you're trying to project this onto a slightly smoothed mesh. You should be projecting this onto a single quad.
Also what tumorboy says about these latest images looking better is again totally wrong, your goal should be: http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/box01normalsmapcopy-1.png?t=1220315826 < this, simply without the distortion, and patching up those inner holes with the geometry i talked about above. Your last 3 images are totally wrong and very much worse than what your originally had.
As for this image here: http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/box01normalsmapcopy.png?t=1220289281 I'm not entirely sure why its happening but i can tell you exactly what it is.
That result is happens when your rays shoot backwards and render the wrong side of the mesh. Turning on ignore backfaces should fix this. This is likely from screwed up cage settings, but could also just be max being a bitch.
You'll notice if you take that image into photoshop and invert it, the "brown" area will appear to be correct, and the opposite area will no look broken. Simply a case of backwards rays.
Replies
The edges are really thin, I didn't do it in my example, but you should make the edge bars at least as thick (if not more) than the inner cross-pieces. Look at your reference again.
Also this is the high-poly mesh for generating a normal map, you'll want to use a normal-mapped low-poly mesh in your environment, not these mega-polygon meshes.
You may want to re-think your design too, since the upper part looks more future-tech, while your grate looks decidely past-tech. Some ideas from Doom 3...
What do you think it should be? I did look at the doom 3 picture a couple hours ago but I'm now at work and for some reason the picture isn't appearing. Sorry
Oh and if you think I should keep the grate, should I use XNormal, nvidea pugin (from the nextgen texturing dvd eat3d.com) or something else to create (bake, is that the correct use? haha) the normal maps?
Something like he posted, that looks more like an access grate for wires/technology would fit better imo. Making it look like stamped metal, or at lesat made out of steel/aluminum would help sell a more modern look.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsi/87417073/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31658497@N00/533148445/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boy_bohemian/418495811/
Maybe something with a little more design to it:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/futileboy/96457539/
I've noticed a couple minor errors but before you critique those I just would like to know if this "fits".
Subdivision OFF:
I assume the t-intersections are the outer most intersections... and I don't know what you mean by loop or where exactly to put it.
Thanks for joining the discussion though!
Subdivision ON:
Subdivision OFF:
I didn't want to ask another stupid question so I just went with the only way I know how to do it. This is probably not the best way to make the loops but I used the slice plane tool and eyeballed the dimensions. Feel free to tell me how you did it.
Sure it would, but you wouldn't learn much would ya? Use the Search button, and use the search term +opacity +bake . Also look at the Normal Map wiki page.
Should my low poly be a plane with holes in it, just a plane or a plane with transparent faces/holes?
Personally, Eric, I don't see the bevels on the Doom 3 ones either though.
I have an idea to fix what you're talking about. I'll have it done within a couple of hours.
I'm very proud of this...
I'd make the rim along the very outside edge much thicker, like 2x the width of the inner ribs. Here it looks like 1/2 as thick.
As for learning to bake normal maps, I would suggest following the tutorials that ship with Max, for example: C:\Program Files\Autodesk\3ds Max 2009\help\3dsmax_t.chm > Materials and Mapping Tutorials > Normal Bump Mapping.
I don't really know what happened here... I tried to apply it just to see what would happen. While I learn about applying normal maps maybe someone could tell me why the colors got messed up in the middle.
Go through the tutorial that ships with Max, and make sure you understand each step, in this way many things will become clear.
So I know there are a ton of things that wrong but it is an improvement.
Speaking of stuff wrong... I can't figure out why the vertical bars in the normal are pointing inward. Please just tell me why and not where to find out why. Yes I will learn from it because you will be telling me. If it is somewhere else then just copy and paste it. It really saves me time when I'm getting REALLY sick of this grate.
Another thing that I need to work on is lighting. I'm going to start mixing the education of that with the material stuff I'm learning currently.
Oh and Eric, my next post will include fatter edges on the grates.
If so, then your cage is doing some wierd distortion thing. Sure, converting to tangent MAY have fixed it, but you should figure out the root issue, rather than a way to get around the problem.
Go through this if you haven't already:
http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/normal_workflow.htm
Go through the wiki, do a few tests, see if you can master the theory behind normalmaps. Also read through perna's end-all normalmap thread, it's a goldmine of useful tips, although I believe Eric has put most of those into the normalmap article on the wiki.
Then, if you've done that, people will be more than happy to help you with any problems, as they were in the beginning of the thread.
I was able to fix the distortion.
But there is still a lot of pink. So then I brought it into xNormal. That made the pink darker. Then I took it into the Nvidia NormalMap plugin in Photoshop. This is what came out of it.
I'm still trying to figure out what the random bumps are. But for a quick solution I touched it up in photoshop and this is what I came up with.
MightyPea: Yeah I was definatly starting to see that. The thing was that up until Tumerboy sent me the link in his last post, I was getting sent to website that what the different Normal Maps were and that was good but I really needed a website that told me the steps to creating the different types. The image that I'm going to show Johny is a good example. I wanted someone to tell me or show me a website where it told me where I pick which type. I still don't know whether there is an actual setting for this or you are supposed to do it like I explained to Tumerboy.
Anyway... yes I will keep that in mind. I hope people realize that I have been using google to find tutorials on making and applying Normal Maps. That is how I learned it actually. I just used the wiki as a Normal map dictionary.
Johny:
I'm sorry that I didn't see the two big buttons infront of me when I made the normal map. I feel like an idiot and kneel before you amazing skills of explaining stuff... oh and your awesumeness.
Also, I'm glad to help, but many useful tutorials, including Poopinmymouth's great normal map baking tutorial, are linked to from both the Be All End All Normal Map thread, and the Polycount Wiki page on Normal Maps.
I know it's alot to wade through, but you would truely benefit from stopping your work on this grate, and simply reading through those pages. You would find links to various useful tutorials, and you would have a better understanding of not only WHAT do do, but WHY you're doing it, and HOW it works.
The problem here is that your highres has HOLES IN IT. Which will give you garbage random colors or some other unpredictable result. What you need to do is this:
First off, You want add some geometry behind the grates, doesnt matter what it is, just a flat box will be best. Dont put it too far back that the trace is going to miss it, just far enough back that it isnt clipping into it.
Now, because you're going to get something rendered on 100% of your image, you need to give each part a different material color. So, apply a flat black material to your lower box mesh, and a flat white material to your upper grate mesh.
Now all you need to do is render a diffuse/color map from those material colors(you can do this in max) and there you have your alpha channel!
From this image here it looks like you have all sorts of wonky smoothing going on here. http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/grate9.png?t=1220315617
The grate mesh should be on its own smoothing group totally flat, not getting smoothed or even attached to other meshes.
The distortion issue is either a totally screwy cage(really there is no need to even use cage on a mesh like this, offset is enough) Or you're trying to project this onto a slightly smoothed mesh. You should be projecting this onto a single quad.
Also what tumorboy says about these latest images looking better is again totally wrong, your goal should be: http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/box01normalsmapcopy-1.png?t=1220315826 < this, simply without the distortion, and patching up those inner holes with the geometry i talked about above. Your last 3 images are totally wrong and very much worse than what your originally had.
As for this image here: http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/box01normalsmapcopy.png?t=1220289281 I'm not entirely sure why its happening but i can tell you exactly what it is.
That result is happens when your rays shoot backwards and render the wrong side of the mesh. Turning on ignore backfaces should fix this. This is likely from screwed up cage settings, but could also just be max being a bitch.
You'll notice if you take that image into photoshop and invert it, the "brown" area will appear to be correct, and the opposite area will no look broken. Simply a case of backwards rays.
IS
without distortion.
I'm saying the first image above, is on the right track.