Max 2008 Demo
polycounter lvl 18
Ok so Autodesk has released the 30 day demo. Time to check this out and see if there are any improvements.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/mform?siteID=123112&id=10083915
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/mform?siteID=123112&id=10083915
Replies
Why autodesk why!
Alex
Sage , the patch support is swful, its barely changed in ten years and nurbs should be just dropped IMHO
I do dig those realtime shadows. About time:P
Hey Per, what is iso mode editing? am I missing some cool 3d fundamental?
With Max, if you turn on subdivision it gives you this fugly orange cage overlaid onto the subdivided mesh, which is quite horrible to work with.
That orange cage drives me insane. I usually reference copy the model then subdivide it. Work on one model, look at the other, to avoid the orange cage. I can see the benefit Iso mode editing would have.
I think Autodesk should really take a closer listen to what the game development community is asking for. I mean, for whatever reason, they are constantly implementing tools for architectural rendering, which I'd think makes up a very small percentage of their sales. I have friends who work for large architectural firms, and these companies are lucky to have 2 or 3 seats of Max, whereas every game company in the area has dozens. Shoot, even those running Maya will have more than 2 or 3 seats of Max scattered somewhere around the office.
Per: Layout a proposal for them to take that shit over! Perhaps they really do just have a stable of retards working over there and need somebody to come in a clean house.
Demand a ridiculous salary and deliver the awesome results you're known for and you'll make many a 3D artist happy.
Also, I know that King of Daveness was doing some consulting for them regarding features. If he's still doing that, maybe we should let him know some of the issues we're having. I haven't seen him around here lately, but he shouldn't be too hard to track down.
I'm going to start sending them big hair turds, if they didn't fix the excess biped collections issue...
and - relax brush? what? where?
My max has a bug where if I move an edge, it crashes... has happened across several scenes for several days completely unrelated to each other. It constantly crashes, and is so unbelievably bloated, as has been stated here.
A little anecdote that I think sums up Max very nicely, from a packet I received at the Autodesk 2008 launch this Tuesday in Seattle:
MAXScript ProEditor
3ds Max 2008 marks the debut of the new MAXScript ProEditor. This intuitive new interface for working with MAXScript ncludes multilevel undo functionality; fast, high-quality code colorization; rapid opening of large documents; line number display; regular expressions in search/replace; folding of sections of the script; support for user-customization; and many other features.
I'm not sure how many of you use the awful language known as MAXScript, but the current Maxscript editor has ONE UNDO, no code folding or line numbers, and the code coloring is completely FUBAR (doesn't update after a paste unless you actually edit the line). Max 2008 is adding, in other words, the functionality you expect from any basic, free, text editor... except this is a program that costs thousands of dollars that has not bothered to even update its native scripting editor for the 21st century. Scripting, which is arguably one of the most important issues in this generation of games, given how important pipeline is.
Max is such garbage and I'm glad even industry vets are getting upset with it... the only reason that its still around is as has been said above; so much infrastructure was laid in the preceeding decade, so many people learned it, so many studios created pipeline around it, that to dislodge them from those seats, to try a new app, will really require the benefits of switching from Max is worth the risk (a risk assessed, unfortunately, by the more senior people who are more likely to have solely 3dsmax experience and don't want to switch).
They need to take a year off, clean up and streamline the program, and rework it from the core, especially exposing more through scripting (and fixing the absurd maxscript language rules which are unlike anything I've ever seen...)
Its telling that a review of Max7 I read a couple weeks ago in an old CGWorld mag was mentioning how max is bloated but autodesk is addressing the issue... huh?
I'm still using the older versions as of now.
Go XSI?...
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I'd second that. A decent sized studio could go all essentials or split essentials and foundation (dunno if that will work with 6.5 being essentials/advanced only) plus there's the amount of support Softimage gives. They apparently flew in a few guys to valve's studios to assist in converting over the pipeline.
Softimage to XSI (ok not version 10, but they realized it was time to rewrite)
Mac OS to OSX
And XSI|Foundation is only $495.
Fuck Max, haven't used it since version 4 (But I still enjoy reading these threads, same fucking broken promises and complaints every year ;-)
http://www.softimage.com/products/modtool/
http://www.xsibase.com/users/max2xsi/MAX2XSI.htm
max 8 is ok, but since I spend most of my time looking at 3d heads with real time shaders on them, i don't want max to freeze/cash/blow up my computer every time I fart.
I also wanna make more use of the the save fx button, but since half of the stuff I try doesn't convert properly, its a waste of time.
For example if I use falloff in my reflection channel, save fx just totally ignores it. why have something implemented if it only half assed?
TBH, Max still does it for me overall , but I am tempted to look at xsi in the future.
The updates to Max that I liked the most were 3.1, 4 and 7. Seven because that's the first version where they let you share shortcuts, which would of have been nice if they had added that to max 6 and a relax feature. In seven they had Bridge but it only worked in border mode, 8 fixed that and 9 added better support for high poly or that's what I heard.
Alex
For Immediate Release:
Autodesk (NASDAQ) has purchased the company Softimage.
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...that would pretty much be the day innovation died in 3d.
Check out the part under "Construction Modes and Regions"
There may be another way but this is how i do it:
All general operators (stuff i dont care about being able to change later like moving verts) go under "modelling construction mode". Stuff i want to keep so i can alter later (like a bend deformer) I put under "secondary shape mode". then i freeze the "modelling" operator stack as i go, but still have access to all the deformers stored under "secondary shape mode" so i can go backand alter or delete them later.
It sounds convoluted but it really isnt
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Haven't answered all of them Cause I don't know what the modifiers do, and if XSI has a equivalent.
modifiers:
- displace, = Yes
- normalize path?
- shell,?
- vert projection,?
- FFD,?
- morpher,? (if it's like making face shapes/morph targets, Yes)
- 3d noise,?
- push, = Yes
- relax, = Yes
- skew/bend/those kinds of things,?
- symmetry, = Yes
- spherify, = ?
- tesselate, = Yes
other features:
- solid render-to-texture (including normal map bake), = RenderMap and Ultimapper
- fast GI render, = Yes, but Final gather can be fast too
- hardware shaders in the viewport, = DX9, DX10, OpenGL
- pivot point control, = Yes
- coordinate system presets (local, world, object, etc), = Yes
- angle snap, = Not sure
- good layer manager = Basically same as Maya
modeling related:
- preserve UV, = Yes you can cut the mesh to hell and the uv's remain constant (unless it's along a seam and you will need to tweak that)
- edge/face constrain, = Not Sure (I know you can constrain objects to a vertex/edge/face of a mesh)
- some form of sort selection (tweak brush etc), = Yes Move to "m" key along with turning on proportional (prop on right hand tool bar aka soft selction)
- good cut tool, = yes "\" key
Displace? like adding a greyscale displacement map. If so yes and you can paint them in real time straight onto a mesh in the viewport i think.
FFD - yes its called deform by lattice and the lattice is not tied to the mesh or operator so you can deform multiple meshes with the same lattice if you need to.
Morpher? Like blendshapes? Yes it has a built in shape manager and you can mix them in the animation mixer.
Push/Relax/Skew/Bend - Yep. A full list of the options under deformenrs: Bend, Bulge, Shear, Taper, Twist, Fold, Push, Relax, Smooth, Shrink Wrap, Quick Stretch, Wave, Randomise, Shape Jitter as well as deform by curve, cage, lattice, spine, surface and volume. I cant comment on how the compare to max but im sure youll be able to get the deformations you need.
spherify - theres a script called Spherisize
Angle Snapping Yes, set the increment and hold shift while rotating to turn it on
The remaining ones I'm not too sure what they do
- normalize path?
- shell?
- vert projection?
- 3d noise,?
It truly is a dinosaur. I used max first in 2002-2003 on version 5 I believe, and I can't seem to find much of a difference between the modelling tools and options. Except what I thought was awesome back then for modelling a 200 poly box, isn't so hot now after working with the vastly superior modo and silo UIs. It's almost as if autodesk doesn't want you to use max.
But yeah, seeing the shell modifier in action with a user drawn path made me wet myself, so I guess I might have to suck it up.
Likely, Per, there will be some things without 'equivalents.' That is what being a power user is, right? You know Max, your workflow takes full advantage of Max, which is why you stick with Max. There will be ways- sometimes similar, sometimes different- to not just make what you want to make (obviously) but do what you want to do, for the most part. However, it will take some refactoring of your workflow if you do switch, no matter what. It will be beyond just 'learning' the new program, you will have to re-shape your max-specific workflow.
This is really a good example of why max is still around... people don't want to switch workflows and pipelines and relearn what they've taken years to acquire and perfect. It's a perfectly legitimate reason for not switching and I wouldn't blame them for not switching, as it very well may not be worth it. Unfotunately I don't think any amount of complaining or petition will force autodesk to really rewrite Max as everyone knows it really needs... I think they can see the trends and reality plain as day, but what it would take to 'fix' max is so expensive and expansive, that, like for those of you who don't want to switch from max, its not worth it for them. They are still bringing in plenty of cash from licenses for studios that feel the same way Per does. My guess is they will retire max as we know it once that stream dries to a certain point, but the odds of them fixing max in the next few years are I think 0.
XSI has something different that's kind of like modifiers. Deformers and other things that fall under operators.
Deformers
Deform by spine, curve, lattice, cage, volume, surface,
randomise, bend, shrink wrap, push, relax, smooth, shape jitter, quick stretch, wave, cluster center.
Randomize and shape jitter seem to do what noise does but it looks like it's on steriods.
Modeling
Tweek tool, it's kind of like silo 3d in one tool. It does the following, you can select any subobject, do the constrain to edge, face, stuff, and target weld. You can also activate all the transform tools and they will behave a little different when you are in tweek mode. It feels like modeling in Max but nice like when you extrude edges by holding shift. D in XSI by default extrudes and duplicates, it depends on how you set the option. If you have a face or edge select it extrudes by 0 so then you can move it to where you want. It doesn't feel as quick as shift drag but it is. I timed it.
Texture editor is powerful, but for simple things if you are used to max easy way, which people that like node base editors hate, it can be a pain in the ass. If you like how you set up materials in Roboblitz then you'll like this a lot. Pretty similar.
XSI has supra mode for most of it's tools, fancy work for toggle. so you can activate the cut tool for example by holding down a key while you use and then it switches back. Presever UVs in XSI isn't that good but it's there.
Displacement in XSI is soo much better than Max, you can paint in XSI with vertex weights too. Softimage XSI has Mental Ray. Softimage made it if I'm not mistaken. You can write real time shaders in XSI as well. The texture Editor is pure power, kind of overkill for a lot of game art, but since you are a programmer I'm sure you'll enjoy it right away. Solid texture baking.
All this
other features:
solid render-to-texture (including normal map bake),
fast GI render,
hardware shaders in the viewport,
pivot point control,
coordinate system presets (local, world, object, etc),
angle snap,
good layer manager
seems better. The linking of objects in XSI is real nice.
Cut tool is way better than Max and the constraints and snaps in XSI are awesome.
The only reason I like Max better is because I learned on it, if not I would have to kill someone if I went from XSI to Max, because the UI alone in Max is terrible.
Per I wouldn't tell you to try XSI if I didn't think you would like it. I use XSI but I consider myself a Max user. It will be a bitter sweet experience though, so give it month if you do try it. You will have to learn how the app works and there is a lot to it.
Per what does normalize path and vertex project do? I never use spherify, I'm wondering what you use it for.
XSI equivalent
Shell = Soldify sort of does what shell does
Tesselate = can be done with Dice for example and there are a few other ways as well.
Noise modifier = shape jitter or randomize can do this and more
the basic twist, bend stuff is pretty much the same in XSI
The FDD are deform by lattice in XSI but XSI seems to expand on this with other deformers.
Most of the deformers can be driven by other deformers so you'll have to experiment. You can use Push to deform a model and control the values with a weight map, which is like painting with vertex colors.
Alex
Little things that are frequently over looked.
-entire interface is xml based. (check the interface with hiding panels)
-Scripting Language
VBScript (the default)
JScript
PerlScript
Python ActiveX Scripting
-Custom display host--> http://softimage.com/products/xsi/videos.aspx?video_id=10 (if you wanted to, you could load photoshop into the viewport)
-gigapoly core--> http://softimage.com/products/xsi/videos.aspx?video_id=0 (I usually load all my zbrush models (5million +)in xsi and model over top with little slow down (amd 3000+ radeon 9800 1 gig ram)
-Ultimapper--> http://softimage.com/products/xsi/videos.aspx?video_id=8 (best render to texture there is IMO)
Others to watch in there: import zbrush, emboss geometry, tweak tool, shape manager, gator, motor and crosswalk.
Sorry for hijacking a max2008 thread. There really is no benefit for me to tell anyone about xsi. I just honestly think that the majority of you would love it if you spent a little time with it.