These sculpting breakdown images tells a lot. It's quite good till step 2.5 / 3, but afterward it shifts away and goes wrong somehow. I think you are repeating the same mistake of guessing the facial planes instead of using a solid reference. Esp around the groin/mouth area.
Not the best example (could have been much more simple in shapes) but an idea still:
And yeah, by 'edge loop study' I think what most referred to is what lies between the lines so to speak ie facial planes and muscle study.
thank you guys, so around number 3 were the forms are building more is where its going off?
also the ear proportions, I thought it was eyebrow = top of ear, bottom nose = bottom ear. Thats what I was told/ read online/books?
As far as the head being to big, im using the skull reference this time, is it to "Fat" or just to big? like sizing of the frontal forhead/back of the head area?
I had a mentor a few years ago who told me to always make it proportional and then once you get that, exagerate it just a bit, and then it will feel more natural.
I dunno how true that rings at a beggining faze of the learning process?
I do see some improvement. Good job. Keep it up. I would just say make a penis rocket and things will start to gel.
But don't rely on rules in books when you've got a perfectly good penis between your legs to look at.
My Penis goes below my knees, for what it's worth.
...No but seriously, keep practicing! The heads are starting to get better.
Spent many hours last night just focusing on one major area at a time, I still did not get to finish the arms or the legs as I wished to
I still dislike this mesh in general mainly in the muscles for the arms and torso area ( I still have no idea how the muscles flow correctly there yet)
Other than that thanks to techinques suggested from the skelleton mesh to drawing penis rockets I can atleast say I have come this far
dude learn the basics ffs ! everyone nowadays jump straight into sculpture without even knowing proportions etc, lowpoly art can teach you that alot. Dont put the van infront of the cows ( is that expression valid ? )
Wow, that thing realy Hit u in the face hey? its like one second u are like tralalala then BANG!
I dont see why restart, Step 1 Try and think about it for a second, does humans look like that? No. Once u realise that, the second step is easy. paint over that shit, in Z thats all u do Paint. so Paint over . thats step 2 EASY. Step 1 Hard.
I wouldn't call it a failure, but a work in progress =P It's all coming along, the head on the body looks like its a big improvement. The body isn't "bad" for a first of many studies to come.
Crits:
- It looks like you carved in the detail between the muscles and didn't pull out the muscles. So the surface of the muscle comes off very flat instead of bulbous. There seems to be a constant crease between all the muscles. That line would thicken in shallow areas and get really skinny where muscles overlap or push against each other.
- What is killing it the most for me, are the obliques, the muscles on the sides of the abs. The abs should stretch farther across the torso.
There are a lot of problems, and many of them can only be solved by studying anatomy books and the human form, but the most prevalent error that I can see is the fact that all of the muscle masses are very jagged and harsh. The layers of skin and fat (yes, even in people with very low body fat percentages) smooth out those forms, and give them a softer appearance.
Try making the muscles more rounded and less dramatic. You might want to step down to a much lower level (~100,000 polygons) to get the major muscle groups correct first. Don't worry about the details until the rest of it looks right.
Hi Seforin I am also doing an anatomy study and its a pain. I will tell you wants helping me. References, References, References........"pause" References. I have looked at about, at least up to 200 images maybe more I lost count. Are you using any references?
Your forgetting some fundamental rules. ex: bottom of crotch to top of head is the same length as bottom of crotch to bottom of feet. The muscles right now all feel very floaty, like you just drew the lines between them instead of associating them with one another. Dont think of it as just plopping down specific shapes on a jelly covered skeleton, think about where the actual muscles overlap, plus connect to bones and each other.
Also, while as I see a definet improvement with your ears, your characters head is very disproportianate (and he has no neck...)
ok a bit of changes/ updates, im thinking of starting a new sculpt from scratch ,im stating to understand the flow but still need to work more on getting those forms , but heres a minor update
You are not sculpting volumes at all seforin. The muscles all look lumpy and amorphous. the way the cavity is showing up in that side view is pretty indicative of how this was all created. You may have some muscles roughly in the correct space on a surface level, but you do not seem to have any knowledge of how they overlap and insert into the bone.
Sit down with some more reference and honestly study it. Do some drawings maybe? Or sculpt something with your hands? It's just pretty clear you are not understand what you are sculpting.
It's not a matter of just 'keep working on it'. You keep replying that you'll just keep working along, and that determination is admirable, but you really need to stop and think about the model before you keep pushing forward.
Look at other sculptures. Check the ZB3 beta forums, if they're still up, some amazing stuff in there. Look at traditional sculpting. Look at drawing books. Look at anatomy books. Your model does not look anywhere close to right.
I was rather harshly told to 'open your eyes' in response to a model I was rather proud of a long time ago, and it's really the best advice anyone can give. Get some real reference. Be seriously self critical. All of the masses are wrong, all of the forms are wrong, all of the muscles seem drawn on more than actually sculpted out. Get ref, and start again! You definitely have the right idea bout being hardworking, it's just that doing the same thing over and over without being seriously self critical isn't going to get you anywhere.
(also, just to mix things up, try a dramatically different body type. Underweight, lean, maybe?)
I juggle multiple projects at the same time so I'm not always stuck looking at the same thing trying to figure out what is wrong with it. Sometimes a few hours work on a different project is all I need to see the mistakes. Other times I have to come back to it weeks later before they stand out. Sometimes when I just can't figure it out, I start over and I end up doing it faster, more efficiently and it ends up working out a lot better. Maybe instead of just pushing thru with the same model trying to fix it, start a new one and play around with the shapes before committing to a higher level of detail. Bang out a few silhouettes and find some basic shapes that work well. Like SupRore suggested try different body types and find out what makes the body types different. Try different poses and find out what makes those poses dramatic. Try to convey emotion in the pose. Try to fight the urge to sub-d and detail a part until your satisfied with the detail on that level as a whole.
Honestly I think you should be working on shape and form before the fine details. Sorry I can't offer more, I'm really pressed for time these days.
Why not focus only on sculpting at the lowest level and posting that? This will force you to primarily deal with proportion and keep you from straying into details without getting the basics down first.
Post that, and let people critique the general form you have created until it looks correct. Once you have got level 1 looking good, then subdivide to level 2 and only work at that level. And so on.
It will be easier to critique, and easier for you to fix if you focus only on the lowest level. Same thing for moving up one level at a time and re-working that level till its good.
Just like anything, you need a good foundation to start from or else it's not going to work out. The best way to concentrate on that is to avoid higher subdivision levels.
quote: As you can see I really have been trying to learn anatomy and i've tried my damnest to really get good at it. <font color="yellow">But it seems unless if I actually practice it digitially I just wont get better at it.</font>
You're wrong about the whole actually practising it digitally. That's where, imo, you're mistake is. You need to practice it Mentally (draw it in your mind, work toward understanding how the pieces fit) and Manually (drawing schematic diagrams of how the body works).
Everyone has given you this advice, but it's your choice to take it or not. Keep up the hardwork, but change your method of attack if what you want is to understand anatomy better.
[ QUOTE ]
dude learn the basics ffs ! everyone nowadays jump straight into sculpture without even knowing proportions etc, lowpoly art can teach you that alot.
[/ QUOTE ]
could say the same about your english
if everyone started out with the basics, and never tried jumping forward, they'd never make the mistakes they learn from
No, they'd just never make mistakes. There's very little to learn from a sculpt like this except 'start at the basics', it's purely a product of jumping ahead and failing.
Whatever the case may be I have to learn some way or another and so far ive learned a great deal in a short amount of time, I have gone into doing basic figure drawings on and off at my night job and working on just simplistic piece at a time areas. And taking what everyone has to say into account.
Seriously . Dont shoot a moose dead while it still can crawl ( Johny does that make any sense?)
SupRore, I wouldn't count a learning experience as a failure. Your post on the other hand, well thats debatable. You can't expect someone to sit down and pound out awesome the first time. The people that claim to do it, actually forget all their previous mistakes. Expecting people to try and not fall down on some level is an unrealistic goal. All that will do is encourage people to never do anything out of fear of failing. Judging by the amount of art you don't post, I now understand why we see so little from you.
"hey Bob, why do you crawl everywhere? You're 52 years old..."
"Well I could fall down if I try to stand up for the first time, so why take the risk. I want to be sure the first few steps I never take will be perfect and flawless"
Actually there is a lot to be learned from sculpting, drawing and dissecting anatomy. Surgeons learn it by being elbow deep in dead bums for a few years is that the one true way to learn it, ultra hands on? Thats how Da Vinci did it, so we should follow suit shouldn't we? What matters is that you find a way to study it that works for you. Just because you learned it from the low poly approach (still debatable) doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same. There might be little for you to learn from his project but it wasn't meant to teach you anything. If you look back over the thread he has actually learned quite a bit. He still has a way to go, but you shouldn't knock progress.
Learning from your own mistakes is one of the best ways of learning. Learning from others, a close second. I'd urge you to be a dick less and help more, but they are your mistakes to make, I guess others can learn from your social gaffs so maybe your post serves a purpose after all.
Babe Ruth struck out 1,330 times, but he also hit 714 home runs. Don't worry about failure. Worry about the chances you miss when you don't even try.
Very well said, Vig. I couldn't agree more with what's being said here. The only thing that will really foster improvement is genuinely trying your damnedest, and that's what Seforin is doing.
However, I do believe that stepping down to lower levels will help in the long run, like has been suggested. The trouble with sculpting at higher subdivisions is the fact that the major masses aren't really being pushed or pulled around much at all. It creates superficial detail, and it's a major pain to try to get form and proportion correct in that way. In fact, it may be beneficial to show us just the second or third subdivision level to see how it looks.
thanks everyone, It may sound kinda off but if it wasnt for people like rore and certain educators I wanna prove I can do things like this to, I really wouldnt bother,
But on a offtopic note I decided to do a new sculpt from scratch at my night job tonight I started to test how I would incorporate the wings from my char onto his back...and well heres the issue, as you can see from the drawing Im going to have the arch of the wing become his sword...but I dunno a easy way to create his wing frame a proper size to hold his body doing so...any ideas how this would work correctly?
also why does photobucket keep thinking all my sculpts are bad images? I DONT EVEN SCULPT THERE JUNK MAN!
[ QUOTE ]
It may sound kinda off but if it wasnt for people like rore and certain educators I wanna prove I can do things like this to, I really wouldnt bother
[/ QUOTE ] a punch to the nuts without a critique is just as stupid as blind fan-boi complements. If the critique calls for a heavy hand, I'm all for it. Just make sure to include the crits with the heavy hand. Likewise follow the advice of people who actually give it to you not those who use your nuts as a speed bag in hopes of impressing them someday. You might earn their respect by always getting back up after they knock you down but if no one ever teaches you how to get better then you've lost sight of why you asked to be kicked in the nuts in the first place.
"You fail" does nothing to help anyone.
"You fail because ..." helps everyone.
Polycount's most recent rep was founded on the later, not the first. I can see how people can get the two confused, especially when you've just been torn a visceral new hole and ignore the advice it takes to make it heal faster.
[ QUOTE ]
a punch to the nuts without a critique is just as stupid as blind fan-boi complements. If the critique calls for a heavy hand, I'm all for it. Just make sure to include the crits with the heavy hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless you expect me to superimpose an anatomical reference over his model, I gave a perfectly complete crit. Saying that the muscle masses and forums are incorrect and expecting him to be able to look at reference and find out how (something I'm sure he's capable of doing just fine without me patronizing him) instead of giving him a paintover isn't exactly a lack of critique.
[ QUOTE ]
Your words are wrong but I won't explain what is wrong about them. Please fix.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your example is wrong in that I always succeed in communicating almost exactly what I want through text.
Otherwise, that advice would work -- I'm of the personal belief that pointing out areas that need study and letting the student learn on their own is better than showing them the answer. We just differ on teaching styles, vig, i don't see the need to keep derailing his thread. (especially since we're having a more mature version of this conversation through PMs )
There is nothing wrong with pointing out what the anatomical differences are. That's how pretty much everyone learns.
They won't know what they're seeing wrong if they can't identify what is wrong, and trying to figure that out entirely on their own is going to take much longer and ultimately not be as fruitful as if someone assisted them in developing their observation skills.
man simmer guys , I didnt want this to turn into a flame thread or anything 0_o;
In agreeance to everyone yea everyone has there own learning style. mine perferably has always been the hands on approach , do it over and over till I get it right, after I get the Ideas and principles down then I can break them.
I was told my educator in 2d once, "learn the rules, so then you can understand how to bend and change and break them"
so im trying to just do that, so then I can figure out the next steps of how to do things (IE: give it personality )
anyway with that said, I'll continue on and lets try to stay on and off topic a bit. I was messing around with a new sculpt last night and figure if I want to work on that char I should also figure sculpting in the wings/ arch to this new one to get the idea how beefy I would need to make this guy. I last night ran into a BIG issue
I couldnt figure out how big/ wide/ how I would even make the arch way of the wing if it detaches to a sword, though the concept is cool as hell, I didnt think about weight support.
IF this guy lets say I dunno 150 pound or so the arch width of the wings would ahve to be the equivelent of 2 of my arms together (guessing) just to support the frame. If not bigger, but I noticed the bigger/ wider I made the frame the more difficult the sword ability would become if he tried to reach for them . so when I was trying to build a base low poly in max I really couldnt think how this would work.......sooooooooo any ideas or suggestions on this one?
I'll post the body so you guys can get the idea in a little bit
i guess i don't understand the basic concept... he takes that outer edge of his wing and it becomes a sword? what happens to all the internal wing parts that are dependent on it, structurally?
considering the wing structure is missing a joint needed for organic flight, i'm guessing you'd planned on it being more of a glider? he would need some sort of forward thrust, in that case. if he did, and his wings were rigid, i'd say that was a believable size for zooming around.
if you were shooting for more bird-like flight, here's some food for thought: the heaviest flying bird is the great bustard, reaching maybe 45 lbs, it has about an 8 foot wingspan. following those guidelines [rather unscientifically] would mean your guy needs about a 26'8" wingspan... which is significant. And most likely inaccurate once you get into so much weight, but it gives you a rough idea of size.
well to show off more the body frame I will be basing it off here check it out,
(WARNING: THIS MODELS ARMS ARE NOT TOUCHED AS WELL AS OTHER AREAS, IM JUST USING THIS FOR SIZING AND IDEAS!)
anyway with that said
I was talking with vig privately and I Was showing him some of the ref stuff I was using but Im still trying to figure out how I would have the sword wing/ arch work correctly based off sizing , AION had the best ref stuff but still a bit off about how I would do this..
"I guess i don't understand the basic concept..."
That makes two of us. I was doing 3 things at once yesterday and didn't understand what you where trying to show me, sorry about that. For some reason I didn't get the whole sword/wing thing. That does make it trickier, but not impossible. While the concept is pretty kick ass it does need to be reworked if his wings will work like a birds. I think you can suspend disbelief well enough and not have to go all spruce goose with the length of the wingspan. Longer could be more dramatic and it could work with more telescoping pieces but it will be more of a pain to animate and they might not fold correctly unless you run some rigging tests while you model.
Paint Over:
1) This large inflexible piece on the original concept needs to be broken up into small chunks that can animate transformer style or it needs to be soft and pliable. People mistake that leading edge of a birds wing as hard bone, but is actually bendable. which is why your concept artist drew it as a hard piece that would never deform? Great if his wings are like a plane, bad if he has to move them like bird for propulsion.
2) The bones. Technically bird wings aren't some new weird kind of anatomy, they are a bird arms as such they need to be treated the same when grafted onto humans. So your character has a second set of arms, technically they would be the larger more dominate arms of the character but thats where you can fudge things. Either change the wing design so he can manipulate his wings like a bird Or make him a glider like Sectaurs suggested.
3) The sword clips into this base and it is this base (not the sword) that creates the arch for the feathers to attach too. I suggest snapping it in and out of place instead of a sheath because its going to be complex enough for an animator to have him reach and pull the sword off, let alone slide something that long out of a sheath. Because it only runs down half the sword it also provides the needed break in the side view to keep the sword straight, no weird bending like in your paint over. Arch problem solved...
4) Sword...
5) IK chain "rubber bands" and motion of bones/feathers. The animator can put finger joints right where the "3" is , so you can flare out and retract the big wing tip feathers this can greatly increase his wing span and really help give motion when in flight. Also know that most of the bones will need to roll as winged flight isn't just an in/out scissor motion.
The overall width of the character is too wide especially if he's going to be the base for the winged swordsmen.
(yes I just scaled it horiz, the anatomy is still wonky as I didn't address it, just the overall width)
Vig, your horizontally scaled version looks pretty off too -- the ratio between his hips/shoulders/waist/legs is still off, it just looks even more obvious thinned out.
Seforin, seriously, reference! I spammed you with pictures in a PM, were any of those guys' abs and pecs concave? Muscles bulge out, not depress in. And they define overall form. It's not human shapes with muscles on top -- muscles, fat, and bones structure are all there really is to make up all of the silhouette and form shapes.
Big improvement on the ribs, though, they are actually almost right though.
edit: google comes through -- I assume you don't need a paintover for this, right? Just keep sculpting, and keep your mind on the overall forms of the musculature.
Replies
Not the best example (could have been much more simple in shapes) but an idea still:
And yeah, by 'edge loop study' I think what most referred to is what lies between the lines so to speak ie facial planes and muscle study.
Good luck
also the ear proportions, I thought it was eyebrow = top of ear, bottom nose = bottom ear. Thats what I was told/ read online/books?
As far as the head being to big, im using the skull reference this time, is it to "Fat" or just to big? like sizing of the frontal forhead/back of the head area?
my earlobes go below the bottom of my nose, for what it's worth.
I dunno how true that rings at a beggining faze of the learning process?
But don't rely on rules in books when you've got a perfectly good penis between your legs to look at.
My Penis goes below my knees, for what it's worth.
...No but seriously, keep practicing! The heads are starting to get better.
and now
Do I get cookie?
Spent many hours last night just focusing on one major area at a time, I still did not get to finish the arms or the legs as I wished to
I still dislike this mesh in general mainly in the muscles for the arms and torso area ( I still have no idea how the muscles flow correctly there yet)
Other than that thanks to techinques suggested from the skelleton mesh to drawing penis rockets I can atleast say I have come this far
I dont see why restart, Step 1 Try and think about it for a second, does humans look like that? No. Once u realise that, the second step is easy. paint over that shit, in Z thats all u do Paint. so Paint over . thats step 2 EASY. Step 1 Hard.
Crits:
- It looks like you carved in the detail between the muscles and didn't pull out the muscles. So the surface of the muscle comes off very flat instead of bulbous. There seems to be a constant crease between all the muscles. That line would thicken in shallow areas and get really skinny where muscles overlap or push against each other.
- What is killing it the most for me, are the obliques, the muscles on the sides of the abs. The abs should stretch farther across the torso.
Ref:
http://biyolojiegitim.yyu.edu.tr/k/Musc/images/Muscle-anatomy_jpg.jpg
Over the top Ref:
http://ns.gov.gu/icons/muscle1.jpg
And please honestly not just you suck or anything like that?
Try making the muscles more rounded and less dramatic. You might want to step down to a much lower level (~100,000 polygons) to get the major muscle groups correct first. Don't worry about the details until the rest of it looks right.
Also, while as I see a definet improvement with your ears, your characters head is very disproportianate (and he has no neck...)
I might start a new sculpt after this one to get down forms again. I just dont want to stop this one until I can say hes proper with everything
Sit down with some more reference and honestly study it. Do some drawings maybe? Or sculpt something with your hands? It's just pretty clear you are not understand what you are sculpting.
I'll keep working on it
Look at other sculptures. Check the ZB3 beta forums, if they're still up, some amazing stuff in there. Look at traditional sculpting. Look at drawing books. Look at anatomy books. Your model does not look anywhere close to right.
I was rather harshly told to 'open your eyes' in response to a model I was rather proud of a long time ago, and it's really the best advice anyone can give. Get some real reference. Be seriously self critical. All of the masses are wrong, all of the forms are wrong, all of the muscles seem drawn on more than actually sculpted out. Get ref, and start again! You definitely have the right idea bout being hardworking, it's just that doing the same thing over and over without being seriously self critical isn't going to get you anywhere.
(also, just to mix things up, try a dramatically different body type. Underweight, lean, maybe?)
Honestly I think you should be working on shape and form before the fine details. Sorry I can't offer more, I'm really pressed for time these days.
Why not focus only on sculpting at the lowest level and posting that? This will force you to primarily deal with proportion and keep you from straying into details without getting the basics down first.
Post that, and let people critique the general form you have created until it looks correct. Once you have got level 1 looking good, then subdivide to level 2 and only work at that level. And so on.
It will be easier to critique, and easier for you to fix if you focus only on the lowest level. Same thing for moving up one level at a time and re-working that level till its good.
Just like anything, you need a good foundation to start from or else it's not going to work out. The best way to concentrate on that is to avoid higher subdivision levels.
You're wrong about the whole actually practising it digitally. That's where, imo, you're mistake is. You need to practice it Mentally (draw it in your mind, work toward understanding how the pieces fit) and Manually (drawing schematic diagrams of how the body works).
Everyone has given you this advice, but it's your choice to take it or not. Keep up the hardwork, but change your method of attack if what you want is to understand anatomy better.
Check these out in the meantime:
Simone Bianchi anatomical drawings
dude learn the basics ffs ! everyone nowadays jump straight into sculpture without even knowing proportions etc, lowpoly art can teach you that alot.
[/ QUOTE ]
could say the same about your english
if everyone started out with the basics, and never tried jumping forward, they'd never make the mistakes they learn from
Whatever the case may be I have to learn some way or another and so far ive learned a great deal in a short amount of time, I have gone into doing basic figure drawings on and off at my night job and working on just simplistic piece at a time areas. And taking what everyone has to say into account.
Seriously . Dont shoot a moose dead while it still can crawl ( Johny does that make any sense?)
http://freedomofteach.com/
Im taking an Organic Modeling class at AAU while I teach low poly. This thing is a great reference, works much better than books for me.
http://s25520.gridserver.com/products/figures/figure_male_1
Check it out, worth the 200$
"hey Bob, why do you crawl everywhere? You're 52 years old..."
"Well I could fall down if I try to stand up for the first time, so why take the risk. I want to be sure the first few steps I never take will be perfect and flawless"
Actually there is a lot to be learned from sculpting, drawing and dissecting anatomy. Surgeons learn it by being elbow deep in dead bums for a few years is that the one true way to learn it, ultra hands on? Thats how Da Vinci did it, so we should follow suit shouldn't we? What matters is that you find a way to study it that works for you. Just because you learned it from the low poly approach (still debatable) doesn't mean everyone else has to do the same. There might be little for you to learn from his project but it wasn't meant to teach you anything. If you look back over the thread he has actually learned quite a bit. He still has a way to go, but you shouldn't knock progress.
Learning from your own mistakes is one of the best ways of learning. Learning from others, a close second. I'd urge you to be a dick less and help more, but they are your mistakes to make, I guess others can learn from your social gaffs so maybe your post serves a purpose after all.
Babe Ruth struck out 1,330 times, but he also hit 714 home runs. Don't worry about failure. Worry about the chances you miss when you don't even try.
However, I do believe that stepping down to lower levels will help in the long run, like has been suggested. The trouble with sculpting at higher subdivisions is the fact that the major masses aren't really being pushed or pulled around much at all. It creates superficial detail, and it's a major pain to try to get form and proportion correct in that way. In fact, it may be beneficial to show us just the second or third subdivision level to see how it looks.
In a way its kinda like that saying goes from team america......
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CkqESQ48qrQ
But on a offtopic note I decided to do a new sculpt from scratch at my night job tonight I started to test how I would incorporate the wings from my char onto his back...and well heres the issue, as you can see from the drawing Im going to have the arch of the wing become his sword...but I dunno a easy way to create his wing frame a proper size to hold his body doing so...any ideas how this would work correctly?
also why does photobucket keep thinking all my sculpts are bad images? I DONT EVEN SCULPT THERE JUNK MAN!
It may sound kinda off but if it wasnt for people like rore and certain educators I wanna prove I can do things like this to, I really wouldnt bother
[/ QUOTE ] a punch to the nuts without a critique is just as stupid as blind fan-boi complements. If the critique calls for a heavy hand, I'm all for it. Just make sure to include the crits with the heavy hand. Likewise follow the advice of people who actually give it to you not those who use your nuts as a speed bag in hopes of impressing them someday. You might earn their respect by always getting back up after they knock you down but if no one ever teaches you how to get better then you've lost sight of why you asked to be kicked in the nuts in the first place.
"You fail" does nothing to help anyone.
"You fail because ..." helps everyone.
Polycount's most recent rep was founded on the later, not the first. I can see how people can get the two confused, especially when you've just been torn a visceral new hole and ignore the advice it takes to make it heal faster.
a punch to the nuts without a critique is just as stupid as blind fan-boi complements. If the critique calls for a heavy hand, I'm all for it. Just make sure to include the crits with the heavy hand.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless you expect me to superimpose an anatomical reference over his model, I gave a perfectly complete crit. Saying that the muscle masses and forums are incorrect and expecting him to be able to look at reference and find out how (something I'm sure he's capable of doing just fine without me patronizing him) instead of giving him a paintover isn't exactly a lack of critique.
Your words are wrong but I won't explain what is wrong about them. Please fix.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your example is wrong in that I always succeed in communicating almost exactly what I want through text.
Otherwise, that advice would work -- I'm of the personal belief that pointing out areas that need study and letting the student learn on their own is better than showing them the answer. We just differ on teaching styles, vig, i don't see the need to keep derailing his thread. (especially since we're having a more mature version of this conversation through PMs
They won't know what they're seeing wrong if they can't identify what is wrong, and trying to figure that out entirely on their own is going to take much longer and ultimately not be as fruitful as if someone assisted them in developing their observation skills.
In agreeance to everyone yea everyone has there own learning style. mine perferably has always been the hands on approach , do it over and over till I get it right, after I get the Ideas and principles down then I can break them.
I was told my educator in 2d once, "learn the rules, so then you can understand how to bend and change and break them"
so im trying to just do that, so then I can figure out the next steps of how to do things (IE: give it personality )
anyway with that said, I'll continue on and lets try to stay on and off topic a bit. I was messing around with a new sculpt last night and figure if I want to work on that char I should also figure sculpting in the wings/ arch to this new one to get the idea how beefy I would need to make this guy. I last night ran into a BIG issue
I couldnt figure out how big/ wide/ how I would even make the arch way of the wing if it detaches to a sword, though the concept is cool as hell, I didnt think about weight support.
IF this guy lets say I dunno 150 pound or so the arch width of the wings would ahve to be the equivelent of 2 of my arms together (guessing) just to support the frame. If not bigger, but I noticed the bigger/ wider I made the frame the more difficult the sword ability would become if he tried to reach for them . so when I was trying to build a base low poly in max I really couldnt think how this would work.......sooooooooo any ideas or suggestions on this one?
I'll post the body so you guys can get the idea in a little bit
heres the concept in the mean time
considering the wing structure is missing a joint needed for organic flight, i'm guessing you'd planned on it being more of a glider? he would need some sort of forward thrust, in that case. if he did, and his wings were rigid, i'd say that was a believable size for zooming around.
if you were shooting for more bird-like flight, here's some food for thought: the heaviest flying bird is the great bustard, reaching maybe 45 lbs, it has about an 8 foot wingspan. following those guidelines [rather unscientifically] would mean your guy needs about a 26'8" wingspan... which is significant. And most likely inaccurate once you get into so much weight, but it gives you a rough idea of size.
(WARNING: THIS MODELS ARMS ARE NOT TOUCHED AS WELL AS OTHER AREAS, IM JUST USING THIS FOR SIZING AND IDEAS!)
anyway with that said
I was talking with vig privately and I Was showing him some of the ref stuff I was using but Im still trying to figure out how I would have the sword wing/ arch work correctly based off sizing , AION had the best ref stuff but still a bit off about how I would do this..
any ideas anyone?
That makes two of us. I was doing 3 things at once yesterday and didn't understand what you where trying to show me, sorry about that. For some reason I didn't get the whole sword/wing thing. That does make it trickier, but not impossible. While the concept is pretty kick ass it does need to be reworked if his wings will work like a birds. I think you can suspend disbelief well enough and not have to go all spruce goose with the length of the wingspan. Longer could be more dramatic and it could work with more telescoping pieces but it will be more of a pain to animate and they might not fold correctly unless you run some rigging tests while you model.
Bird Wing Ref:
http://www.geocities.com/blackunigryphon/wing03.html
http://www.inkart.com/images/lineart/wings_evolution.gif
Paint Over:
1) This large inflexible piece on the original concept needs to be broken up into small chunks that can animate transformer style or it needs to be soft and pliable. People mistake that leading edge of a birds wing as hard bone, but is actually bendable. which is why your concept artist drew it as a hard piece that would never deform? Great if his wings are like a plane, bad if he has to move them like bird for propulsion.
2) The bones. Technically bird wings aren't some new weird kind of anatomy, they are a bird arms as such they need to be treated the same when grafted onto humans. So your character has a second set of arms, technically they would be the larger more dominate arms of the character but thats where you can fudge things. Either change the wing design so he can manipulate his wings like a bird Or make him a glider like Sectaurs suggested.
3) The sword clips into this base and it is this base (not the sword) that creates the arch for the feathers to attach too. I suggest snapping it in and out of place instead of a sheath because its going to be complex enough for an animator to have him reach and pull the sword off, let alone slide something that long out of a sheath. Because it only runs down half the sword it also provides the needed break in the side view to keep the sword straight, no weird bending like in your paint over. Arch problem solved...
4) Sword...
5) IK chain "rubber bands" and motion of bones/feathers. The animator can put finger joints right where the "3" is , so you can flare out and retract the big wing tip feathers this can greatly increase his wing span and really help give motion when in flight. Also know that most of the bones will need to roll as winged flight isn't just an in/out scissor motion.
The overall width of the character is too wide especially if he's going to be the base for the winged swordsmen.
(yes I just scaled it horiz, the anatomy is still wonky as I didn't address it, just the overall width)
Edit1: geezus I'm a wordy bitch...
Seforin, seriously, reference! I spammed you with pictures in a PM, were any of those guys' abs and pecs concave? Muscles bulge out, not depress in. And they define overall form. It's not human shapes with muscles on top -- muscles, fat, and bones structure are all there really is to make up all of the silhouette and form shapes.
Big improvement on the ribs, though, they are actually almost right though.
edit: google comes through -- I assume you don't need a paintover for this, right? Just keep sculpting, and keep your mind on the overall forms of the musculature.