Sicko
polycounter lvl 19
Michael Moores latest film... its has a very powerful message that EVERYONE should agree with imho
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6703482849079349175
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6703482849079349175
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Replies
My family was poor growing up. My mother was raising three kids on her own, working 2 jobs. Even then, we ate bread, butter and spam more times than I'd have liked. Powdered milk, powdered eggs, Salvation army clothing, you name it. No one in my family has succeeded well in their life goals. Everyone has been reduced to hard manual labor jobs. I'm the first one to succeed well. I worked damn hard, and sacrificed a great many things to get where I am today. I get good health care because I worked my arse off, and I pay well to get it.
Yet some of you people sit there saying that Ms.Smith over there (who has 5 kids, collects wellfare, WIC and doesn't attempt to get a job, and tries for even MORE kids) deserves the same medical treatment as I get? No way in hell. I have absolutely NO sympathy for people like this. They suckle on breast of nourishment, and give nothing back. They're lazy. Slackers. Worthless.
If there was a way to get rid of these sappers, it'd be something I'd be interested in. But with so many people already taking advantage of the current systems, there's no freakin' way I'd vote for national healthcare.
...universal healthcare, completely government controlled or not, is a necessity.
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Why?
Frank the Avenger
Sorry, I don't agree with national health care (as things currently stand). There are enough people that take advantage of the many systems we have in place for helping low income individuals. I don't want millions more, sapping medical service that I'm paying for.
My family was poor growing up. My mother was raising three kids on her own, working 2 jobs. Even then, we ate bread, butter and spam more times than I'd have liked. Powdered milk, powdered eggs, Salvation army clothing, you name it. No one in my family has succeeded well in their life goals. Everyone has been reduced to hard manual labor jobs. I'm the first one to succeed well. I worked damn hard, and sacrificed a great many things to get where I am today. I get good health care because I worked my arse off, and I pay well to get it.
Yet some of you people sit there saying that Ms.Smith over there (who has 5 kids, collects wellfare, WIC and doesn't attempt to get a job, and tries for even MORE kids) deserves the same medical treatment as I get? No way in hell. I have absolutely NO sympathy for people like this. They suckle on breast of nourishment, and give nothing back. They're lazy. Slackers. Worthless.
If there was a way to get rid of these sappers, it'd be something I'd be interested in. But with so many people already taking advantage of the current systems, there's no freakin' way I'd vote for national healthcare.
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I'm sorry, but that's a pretty loathsome world view. Yeah, those stupid poor people taking advantage of the system and asking for expensive medical procedures instead of just dieing like the worthless lazy fucks they are.
One thing that isn't even mentioned in Moore's film is that over half of all bankruptcies in this country are a result of medical expenses, and of those bankruptcies, more than half actually have medical insurance... so regardless of whether or not you believe poor people are lazy worthless fucks, our system is fucked, even for people with good jobs that offer insurance.
THe healthcare system in this country is broken...and Insurance companies are sucking more money out of America's tits than some joe welfare guy getting an extra couple of foodstamps he can sell for crack.....
And everyone should be entitled to basic healthcare. If I got to pay an extra 20 bucks in taxes so some old lady doesnt have to choose between her meds and eating catfood ..I say go for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service for more info.
And due to the situation medical expenses (in the US for example) can land people in, it's not suprising that so many people sue (or try to) over the slightest mistake.
If a doctor ends up running some expensive test that wasn't needed, it costs you badly and can financially mess you up. Can't say I find it too hard to blame someone if they end up wanting to sue.
If it's covered by universal healthcare then it's not a problem (actually a bonus since you might get more information from that extra test).
Maybe spend less money on offense and more on taking care of people in the country?
Personally, I'm in favor of it.
In the future we'll all be robots! AND WE STILL WON'T BE HAPPY.
"Ohhh, I need to buy a new capacitor for my left pinky, but I just can't afford it. Hello Robo healthcare"
So back on the phone week after week and my insurance company is threatening to send this to collection because I haven't paid. They have said on the phone that with my coverage I don't owe anything but expect me to pay over 8 grand because they think i'm still 17 years old and under my dads insurance. Even though I have sent them a letter saying I am no longer covered under my dads insurance and haven't been since 1998 when i turned 18.
Still.. I get a phone call asking me when I am going to submit payment. I could just fucking explode I am getting so pissed. I work hard enough to fix my credit after I got out of the military to deal with this non-sense.
I mean for gods sake the Kidney Stones were bad enough.
I honestly don't like Moore personally because of what he has done in the past. I mean come on he made the kids that were victims of Columbine pay to go see his movie at a special screening. WTF! Dude you just made millions off other peoples tragedies. Congrats.
I think universal health care is a good idea and it would help a lot of people in the end. Talking about how the poor people will just leach the system is kind of screwed up. Rich people leach the system too. How do you think they get so many tax breaks? Fake donations, selling property to other companies that they own, all kinds of things. I'm not worried if I have to pay an extra 20-50 bucks out of my paycheck to be able to go to the hospital or doctor if needed.
Everyone should have the right to a good doctor and better health and not just the financially well off folks.
I mean hell some lady just died by bleeding to death in the ER in LA. What the fuck was that? I would sue the pants off that hospital, the dispatch. No need of that shit.
My wife has also been sent into collections because of insurance foul ups. We had a hospital sit on a bill. By the time they submitted it, I had switched jobs. The insurance company would no longer cover the bill because I wasn't their customer anymore... even though I paid my bills during the time the hospital was trying to charge for.
Medical bills?
I'm sorry if you haven't seen the movie you cant come here and complain about universal health care, seriously you dont know what you are talking about.
I'm sorry if you haven't seen the movie you cant come here and complain about universal health care, seriously you dont know what you are talking about
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That's like saying people can't complain about global warming, because they haven't seen "An Inconvenient Truth"....
National health care is just that - national health care. Everyone who can pay, pays more, so that everyone is "equal", including those that don't pay at all. Step 1 towards socialism :P It's not a hard concept to grasp, and telling people they have to see a movie to comment on it is just as silly.
And I'm more than happy to do so. I beleive that everyone, no matter how poor, deserves the right to free, quality healthcare. My private healthcare? I've never used it, but I would if I had to, my reasoning that I'm not talking up a place in the public system that someone else can use.
What I don't get is these "expensive" tests - how are they expensive? If the hospital already owns the equipment, and already pays the staff, how can the tests cost that much money? When my wife was doing her phd and sending chemicals to the lab, the university paid the technicians, the university owned the equipment, she didn't get charged.
I know how tests work. I've seen House.
Like England and Canada and France (i can also bring up japan not explored in the movie), hell theres plenty more to argue about that. I'm no expert tho but Moore makes dead on argument
..Moore makes a dead on argument
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OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING - RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN
Seriously though. Run.
Watching the first few minutes of that video, and learning that a guy couldn't get his fingers reattached because he didn't have $72,000 on hand is a little ridiculous. How many of you have $72,000 to spend? Not many, I'll wager. So it's the money you don't have, or the fingers you just lost.
Vassago, while I agree that some people need a good, swift kick in the ass, there are a lot of people who work very hard, and still can't pay all their bills.
Your view of the situation is a bit cynical, if not arrogant. Just because you're doing well for yourself right now doesn't mean you always will be. Try to have a little compassion.
there are certain cases which need to be treated, whether the person can pay for it, or not.
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Absolutely agreed.
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Just because you're doing well for yourself right now doesn't mean you always will be
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Honestly if I stop doing okay, that's because I didn't plan well enough. It would be my own damn fault. I wouldn't expect, nor ask, someone else to pick up my slack.
Mishra, very much so.
I plan on checking this movie out though, even though some of the shit Michael Moore does disgusts me.
What if you do plan well, but some drunken asshole drives his car into yours and severely injures you and your family. Insurance company makes up some bollocks and refuses to pay, you've got huge medical bills up to your eyes that just keep coming, you can't work properly because of the accident... not your fault yet you're getting shafted every which way.
You think I'm saying that "I don't need it because I'm not hurt". That's not the case. I'm simply stating I don't want it. I pay my own way, simple as that. I have a lot of medical bills for several health issues I have. And I pay them off, slowly but surely. Would it be "nice" if I didn't have to pay for it? Absolutely. But I think it needs to be a bit more reformed than just "giving it to everyone" for absolutely nothing.
But, why do we need to make it a government problem? Why do we need to force this on everyone? I am from Canada, and I it's ridiculous how people use this system to their benefit, and waste resources because it doesn't affect them directly.
Rather than having a large part of EVERYONE's pay check going into this system, I'd rather pay a company and choose for myself what I want to pay for. If everyone did this, then a lot less resources would be wasted. Right now, the system is in place as a safety net.
And not only does it waste resources, but in the end it actually takes away from rights. In Canada, a lot of the justification for enforcing drug laws, seatbelts, speeding, and general safety, comes from the fact that if I get hurt everyone has to pay for it. I agree with socialism to a point, but more important to me is rights, and with a NHS you are heavily infringing on rights.
And also, in Sicko, you have Moore laughing and joking about how people can stay in a hospital as long as they want? Thats... a good thing?
Step 1 towards socialism :P
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Yeah, like those god-damned pinko socialist outfits they call "fire departments"
You think I'm saying that "I don't need it because I'm not hurt"."
Not really, it's like saying I'm not getting robbed so why should I have to pay the police to deal with someone else's problem, I'm responsible for myself.
If it doesn't seem right to pay for someone else's medical care, how does it seem better to pay for when they have a crime commited against them?
But I don't think healthcare is a system quite as open to abuse as welfare, as you'd need something wrong with you to get the care, which would take you back to where you were. I doubt there is much more to abuse other than faking ailment to try to get some free drugs or to get off work (again with damn slackers grr).
I agree that is bloody annoying covering for people who make no effort to help themselves (such as not even trying to get work then spending their giro on cigarettes and drugs), but they aren't the aim of the scheme. Hmm, I watched Soylent Green recently, there's a method for dealing with the slackers
The cost of the war in Iraq is estimated at around a trillion dollars (or more) apparently, I can't help but wonder what that could have done had it gone in to healthcare.
I'd rather be paying my tax into national health than to an insurance copmany that is goin to do it's best to stiff me if something actually goes wrong. Which doesn't seem to be a rare occurrence.
a question for you UK ers. Did you all pay for your art education? college? stuff like that? I'm 90 grand in debt for 4 years of college, and it kills me. 1100 bucks a month for student loan payments.
Generally you have to pay it, though sometimes you don't have to with things such as the European Social Fund, which I think is only for postgrad degrees. It pays the tution, but you cover the rest.
Keep saying this movie is not about poor people, is about the other side getting screwed by they insurance companies. Why it happens, how the rest of the world has found a better way around this fucked up system.
Maximize profits over your life thats the way it goes. It makes me sick how they value money over life. And then theres the ones who rationalize your beliefs around the issue. This movie is made for your kind lol...
And then there thd guys bashing moore, because of his other movies. Well this film doesn't need to have statistics and number and such, its all very raw and humanist. Yeah like a reality show, but this is reality so um yeah....
Seriously if you can watch that film and not care that these REAL people will die, cause they keep getting kept away for their healthcare, you aren't human you heart is frozen lump of coal.
"It was Moore simply talking to people and letting them cry infront of him." -- Yeah people crying CAUSE THEY ARE GONNA FUCKING DIE.
so, just got done watching it. i actually liked it and was very impressed and disgusted at the same time.
a question for you UK ers. Did you all pay for your art education? college? stuff like that? I'm 90 grand in debt for 4 years of college, and it kills me. 1100 bucks a month for student loan payments.
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If you are asking whether the UK government subsidises tertiary education. No. I have friends at work who are still paying off their student loans.
Edit: Of course there are exceptional cases.
The low tax rates in the US = the cause for a large sum of national issues such as this.
And then there thd guys bashing moore, because of his other movies. Well this film doesn't need to have statistics and number and such, its all very raw and humanist. Yeah like a reality show, but this is reality so um yeah....
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What I am saying is that you can not get an idea for an issue like this just by interviewing a few people. If it's actually a national problem, you need statistics and research to back that up. I called this a reality show because it's following only a few people, and then focusing on their drama. It's not focusing on the actual problem.
The film clearly shows a problem with the US health care system, these people are being cheated out of their insurance. But setting up a universal health care system is not the answer.
it seems to me our tax rates arent that "low" at all. maybe im uninformed, and im saying that's a total possibility, but the fact that 17,000 dollars a year is taken from me for no real benefit that i can see, seems to be a load of shit. if they take that much, what are we getting for it? no medical, no education help,so wtf? roads?
a question for you UK ers. Did you all pay for your art education? college? stuff like that? I'm 90 grand in debt for 4 years of college, and it kills me. 1100 bucks a month for student loan payments.
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I didn't have to, but people do now.
When I went to university, not only was it free, in the first year I got paid a grant to go - it was parents income based, but most people got it.
By second year, grants were abolished, but the education was free. UK citizen, clever enough to get to university, no charge. Instead of the grants, there were student loans at around 2.5%, payable only after you had hit a salary threshold.
These days, you have to pay for the education, and lots of clever people can't afford it. I'm lucky, my parents could never had afforded to educate me (and yes, I worked every summer, xmas and easter holiday to pay my own way).
Hoever, Scotland, although part of the UK, has abolished student fees. University Education is free once again! This is available to Scots, and other EU non-UK citizens (so the English canny come across the border).
but the fact that 17,000 dollars a year is taken from me for no real benefit that i can see, seems to be a load of shit. if they take that much, what are we getting for it? no medical, no education help,so wtf? roads?
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have a hoke around here:
http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=286&Itemid=61
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Step 1 towards socialism :P
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Yeah, like those god-damned pinko socialist outfits they call "fire departments"
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lol. That was intended as a joke, hence the tongue face!
to Nostradamus:
it seems to me our tax rates arent that "low" at all. maybe im uninformed, and im saying that's a total possibility, but the fact that 17,000 dollars a year is taken from me for no real benefit that i can see, seems to be a load of shit. if they take that much, what are we getting for it? no medical, no education help,so wtf? roads?
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Pay 45-55% of your income in taxes, then I'm sure you'll see a change.
That of course depends on how the government choses to spend your money.
On the current course, with spending majority of taxes on military garbage, one might doubt it.
I vote for national health care. Yes Michael Moore is a tool, and manipulates images and information to shape people's opinions, but at least he occasionally shines a spotlight on an important, neglected subject. I'll give him that. Plus, I like the way he stirs the pot (whether or not I think he's a reptile).
At the risk of being called a naive hippy, we are going to need to start taking care of eachother if we're going to advance as a species or a society. Yes, there are poor people who are poor because they are lazy and stupid. There are also a lot of poor people who got the shitty end of life's stick, through no fault of their own. Automatically filing every poor person into the "it's their fault, they're lazy" category is a good way to distance yourself from reality and avoid feeling anything, but it's not a very healthy way to live. You'll probably find yourself at the shitty end of life's stick some day, and you're probably going to need someone else's help to deal with it.
I'd pay extra taxes for national health care, as long as it was actually going to help people and not into the pockets of the people that already have most of our money.
I hope my opinion has enlightened all of you.
That said, would anyone mind shedding some light to an ignorant Canadian on what you guys pay for exactly?
-Visit to the doctor to find out what you're sick with (re: feeling like you have the flu)
-Do you have a family doctor or is it strictly 'walk-in' clinics?
-Do you even go when you have these types of symptoms or do you just hit up a pharmacy and get some Nyquil?
-Hospital visit? Say... you've started to limp for no reason and it hasn't left you for a week.
-Common surgery like an appendectomy?
I'm watching SiCKO as I write this so I thought I'd ask.
Also, to shed some light on Canadians NOT paying for healthcare.
-Thats true, pretty much.
-It depends on the province you live in. In Ontario my healthcare (re: OHIP.. Ontario Health Insurance Plan) was 100% free. In British Columbia my girlfriend and I would pay $133 each, every 3 months, for coverage. But that was it. I could walk in to the hospital needing a leg hand transplant and they'd do it.
-Drugs we pay for.
-Most health insurance covers for most of the prescriptions (80% is an average they'll pay)
-You do have to pay for an ambulance bill, depending on the cause though I believe.
-Become ill, while a FT employee, and most health coverage will pay you a high % of your income. When I had my appendix removed I had 4 weeks off with 90% pay.
I could answer other questions if anyone has them.
-Jesus, any game studios in France?
So... I've never needed health care in America. It's generally a good rule here, in Canada, that if you're going to visit another country to get some insurance.
That said, would anyone mind shedding some light to an ignorant Canadian on what you guys pay for exactly?
-Visit to the doctor to find out what you're sick with (re: feeling like you have the flu)
-Do you have a family doctor or is it strictly 'walk-in' clinics?
-Do you even go when you have these types of symptoms or do you just hit up a pharmacy and get some Nyquil?
-Hospital visit? Say... you've started to limp for no reason and it hasn't left you for a week.
-Common surgery like an appendectomy?
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Since I am under health insurance, I generally go every time that I feel I have a serious problem or that I have a strong sickness, but I don't waste my time going other than that. I go to a family doctor, but I went to a walk in clinic one time because I felt really shitty and my regular doctor was out on vacation or something. Some asshole did some tests on me just to come back and tell me he had no fucking clue what it was. I spent the next two weeks in bed feeling like I had the black plague or some shit and I had no idea how to treat it or what it was. The clinic told me my insurance would cover it, and I only had to pay a 30 dollar copay. About 2 weeks ago (this incident happened like 6 months ago) I got a bill in the mail for like $480 because my insurance company, Aetna, could not verify the reason that I went in and they want all kinds of documentation in order to pay for it.
When I pay for my prescription drugs (nortriptyline for chronic headaches and zyrtec for allergies), they are about a $40 copay for the both, but sometimes every gets all fucked and I end up having to pay a couple hundred dollars for a month supply.
Here is the best story. I broke my arm once at a concert and so instead of making a big deal out of it, I went out to eat, drove home, took a shower, and went to sleep. Got up the next day, decided something was probably wrong (it was almost twice it's normal width) and I went with my mom to the hospital. Since it was Superbowl Sunday, the hospital was closed and the only thing open was the ER. I sat in a shitty plastic chair holding my clearly broken arm for 6 hours until they even took a look at me. A clearly unqualified nurse took an X-ray of my arm, then I waited for another hour. The nurse came back in and told me "your arm is broken" and then attempted to put a cast on, but failed twice and had to call in two more people to help guide her. I went home from there and never saw anyone else about it. I figured my insurance would cover most of it, but I was wrong. I got a letter about all kinds of shit not being covered, and ended up having to pay several thousand dollars. I thought it was all done, then about a month later I got ANOTHER bill personally from the head doctor at the hospital for $1500 for her time. I never even saw a fucking doctor. They probably handed her an Xray of my clearly broken arm and she said "oh yeah, thats fucked alright" and went back to what she was doing. Apparently that is worth $1500.
I feel that Moore is a tool and tends to twist the number and examples a bit to suit his message.
But the bit (at least I believed that this part wasn't a lie) that the insurance companies are trying very hard to reject payment for treatment that can prevent somebody from dying is sickening.
If national health care is the solution or not I don't know. Even though health care is privatised for a big part here it's heavily government controlled and affordable for everybody.
And even if you don't have insurance you will always receive the needed medical care.
In my opinion that should be the basis for any health care system. National, privatised or whatever.
The bit about daycare in France being free (or 1 Eur per hour) is not really true because I have friends in Paris who pay a hell of a lot for daycare.
We have the government paid "after-birth nanny" who does the cooking and laundry for a couple of days here too and that totally rocked.