The Cutter (New pics)
Hello people of Polycount!
I've modeled stuff for around four months now (started learning in November 2006) on my spare time. This is my first full body model ever so I'd be happy if you guys could point out all the stuff that should be fixed. I haven't yet learned how to rig stuff (that's my next step) so I'd really need information on how to make properly deforming elbow, knee and shoulder areas.
The character itself is going to be used in a little project me and my friend have in the works and I'm trying to learn stuff as I go. When the low poly base mesh is ready, I'm going to give him normal, diffuse and spec maps.
He weights in 5150 triangles at the moment.
Wires:
Front
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8756/solidwirefrontdv3.jpg
Left side
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8673/solidwiresideak5.jpg
Right side
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/7988/solidwireothersidetj4.jpg
Back
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3103/solidwirebackqw3.jpg
Leg
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/514/legzc1.jpg
Abs
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4918/abssw3.jpg
Also, is floating geometry bad in hard edge modeling? I would get a buttload of extra polies if I tried to connect the screws and the meter to the actual mesh.
I also have no idea how to begin UV mapping him. Because our little game project has only a few characters on screen at the same time, I could give him two separate UVs but I'm still not sure how to proceed with him.
All kind of feedback appreciated.
PS. Out of the lurk!
I've modeled stuff for around four months now (started learning in November 2006) on my spare time. This is my first full body model ever so I'd be happy if you guys could point out all the stuff that should be fixed. I haven't yet learned how to rig stuff (that's my next step) so I'd really need information on how to make properly deforming elbow, knee and shoulder areas.
The character itself is going to be used in a little project me and my friend have in the works and I'm trying to learn stuff as I go. When the low poly base mesh is ready, I'm going to give him normal, diffuse and spec maps.
He weights in 5150 triangles at the moment.
Wires:
Front
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8756/solidwirefrontdv3.jpg
Left side
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8673/solidwiresideak5.jpg
Right side
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/7988/solidwireothersidetj4.jpg
Back
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3103/solidwirebackqw3.jpg
Leg
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/514/legzc1.jpg
Abs
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4918/abssw3.jpg
Also, is floating geometry bad in hard edge modeling? I would get a buttload of extra polies if I tried to connect the screws and the meter to the actual mesh.
I also have no idea how to begin UV mapping him. Because our little game project has only a few characters on screen at the same time, I could give him two separate UVs but I'm still not sure how to proceed with him.
All kind of feedback appreciated.
PS. Out of the lurk!
Replies
At this level of detail I don't really think you need loops following anatomy for the bicep and all, but where you already have polies try and go for anatomically natural placement.
I was already aware of a lot of stuff that needs tweaking (the arms and hands especially) but I wasn't sure what I should do with them. And I'm not going to follow the muscle lines with my edges since the normal map will hopefully take care of it and define the muscles. I assume that it's better for sculpting to have more even poly distribution on the arms rather than muscle following verts.
The poly distribution on the whole character is a bit funky because I've modeled this in Blender and it doesn't have N-gons yet (they're coming this year, thank god) and since I'm a newbie, it's a real pain in the ass to achieve the form I want with poly-to-poly style modeling without using too many polies. I'm trying to tweak that too next.
And the hands, oh god, I hate modeling hands. Could anyone point me to a good hand tutorial? I know that I'm wasting a massive amount of polies there without achieving any good form.
Keep em' coming.
Thanks for the feedback already!
I was already aware of a lot of stuff that needs tweaking (the arms and hands especially) but I wasn't sure what I should do with them. And I'm not going to follow the muscle lines with my edges since the normal map will hopefully take care of it and define the muscles. I assume that it's better for sculpting to have more even poly distribution on the arms rather than muscle following verts.
The poly distribution on the whole character is a bit funky because I've modeled this in Blender and it doesn't have N-gons yet (they're coming this year, thank god) and since I'm a newbie, it's a real pain in the ass to achieve the form I want with poly-to-poly style modeling without using too many polies. I'm trying to tweak that too next.
And the hands, oh god, I hate modeling hands. Could anyone point me to a good hand tutorial? I know that I'm wasting a massive amount of polies there without achieving any good form.
Keep em' coming.
[/ QUOTE ] it may seem like a waste to have your edges follow muscles, but it will really help you achieve good form with less poly's. If you are having trouble achieving form it will help a lot. relying on a normal map for everthing I think is a little wrong. it won't make it that much better than it already is.
I suggest you check out Poops tutorials since he has a nice approach to modeling.
www.poopinmymouth.com
or check this out
http://forums.ego-farms.com/index.php
Just look at the approach in the tutorials as blender probably has a way to do this.
Alex
At this level of detail I don't really think you need loops following anatomy for the bicep and all, but where you already have polies try and go for anatomically natural placement.
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I agree with this, thats what I was trying to say, sorry it came across unclear. I wasn't implying you add geometry, just make it flow properly. I also want to apologize for part of the anatomy on my arm drawing being wrong, I don't know what I was thinking.
this might help for the hands, there is a tiny bit of information on the hands at the end of the tutorial. Although I think there is a lot of information in the photos themselves. A picture is worth a thousand words, especially for modeling. Don't mind that is a maya tutorial just pay attention to the theory. hands are a troublesome part because if your not carefull you can easilly add another 1000 polygons to your model. I tend to do them last since they are so much stress.
http://www.ant-online.co.uk/downloads/ModTutorial.htm
I agree with this, thats what I was trying to say, sorry it came across unclear. I wasn't implying you add geometry, just make it flow properly. I also want to apologize for part of the anatomy on my arm drawing being wrong, I don't know what I was thinking.
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Hehe, yeah, I understood you wrong too. I got your point now.
I tweaked the clavicle area a bit (haven't added them yet but cleared the polyflow there) and re-modeled the hands from scratch:
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/185/newfrontms4.jpg
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2479/newsideue2.jpg
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/6025/handanglescd7.jpg
Does it look any better now?
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Doesn't blender have a divide edge tool, cut or connect tool? If not get wings 3d since if I remember correctly it does have those.
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I actually have Wings3D installed but it just feels cubersome for me. Only one viewport at a time, context sensitive menus... I miss my hotkeys in Wings (I know that they can be re-assigned but I haven't bothered).
Next stop will be defining the arms better and adding a few loops in the knee and elbow area.
hands are looking pretty clean now! maybe make the fingers bend just a little so it doesn't look so "flat" :P I think you overdid the shoulders a bit.. they stick aut a lot and are pretty pointy.. and about the arms? do what the other guys already suggested. keep it up!
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I agree, there is really no anatomy in the arm. not even your bulges represent the muscles. the Only thing you got right was the bicep. Easy fix though, just find some anatomy of the arm and correct it. you still need to remove wastefull edges too. If it doesn't change the surface of the model get rid of it. what I like to call rigid and flexible areas of the model I like to keep more polygons in my flexible areas rather then my rigid areas. of course there is always an exception to my rule.
Just open a new geometry window (window>new geometry window) and drag to fit. Not the best way for it, but it should do to make wings more pleasant to use for you.
I think the hands could do with being a lot less flat, and with more unique fingers. They're all relatively (if not completely) similar right now, right?
Also the top of the hand could flow into the hand just a bit more, i reckon. Unless you want him to have sort of bibendum (michelin-man, fatty) hands.
Also, the general feet-area is all a bit pointy, whereas your arms could actually stand to lose a few rings, so maybe you could donate some arm-polies to his lower regions?
Not to mention his fingers being loads more articulated than his knees, which (in any relatively fast-paced game) doesn't work. You need to think of things in terms of screenspace and focus, and i'm not sure wether or not his hand will end up being quite *that important.
I really like the bulky weapon though, i might have to nick the design of it for something of my own
edit: if you end up using Wings for some things (although once you're used to Blender's alien ways, you might not want to), a good tip is that hovering over any menu-item (including rmb-menu) and pressing insert allows you to define a hotkey, so no need to spend time in the hotkey menu. Just define a key when you use the command.
Vyla: you can actually set multiple viewports in wings3d, but it's not set up as such from the start.
Just open a new geometry window (window>new geometry window) and drag to fit. Not the best way for it, but it should do to make wings more pleasant to use for you.
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Good to know that! I may venture into Wings once again.
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They're all relatively (if not completely) similar right now, right?
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Yeah, they're duplicated and scaled a little, I'm trying to give them a bit more "character" as I go then.
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Also the top of the hand could flow into the hand just a bit more, i reckon. Unless you want him to have sort of bibendum (michelin-man, fatty) hands.
Also, the general feet-area is all a bit pointy, whereas your arms could actually stand to lose a few rings, so maybe you could donate some arm-polies to his lower regions?
Not to mention his fingers being loads more articulated than his knees, which (in any relatively fast-paced game) doesn't work. You need to think of things in terms of screenspace and focus, and i'm not sure wether or not his hand will end up being quite *that important.
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Point taken. I'm really, really, really going to remove the excessive arm loops but I just haven't got time (I haven't touched the arm at all after first post, I ONLY re-modeled the hands). Could you use any red pen to show any ideas for good edge looping on the feet?
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I really like the bulky weapon though, i might have to nick the design of it for something of my own
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You keep your hands away from my intellectual property (which is heavily inspired by WH40K power klaw / power fist)...
And yeah, I was aware of that hot-key assigning thingie. Blender has just grown over me like an incurable cancer.
The shoulders will be adjusted a bit too although I'm going for a bit more alien than super pumped body builder type of body (so he may have some weird outgrowths too).
PolyPutty, I will give the arms some love, I promise, lol. As I stated in the upper post, I only modeled the hands. I would have done more but my girlfriend hoards the PC writing some uni stuff. Grrrr....
Crappy normal
High and low poly
UV mapped
High poly back
I've tried tweaking the cage in Xnormal, different ray distances, everything, but it still leaves holes into the normal.
1) There is a problem in the OBJ importer with n-sided polygons atm(3.10.4 beta 1, got it fixed in the final version but is not still available). Try to triangulate/quadrangulate the model before to export. Also sure you apply freeze transformations in Maya and Reset-XForm+collapse in 3DSMAX.
2) Try to UNcheck the "Discard back-face hits" option.
3) Try to use the "memory conservative" raycaster ( the faster one has less precision ).
4) Also extrude a bit more the cage ( if the highpoly mesh and the lowpoly mesh are too close rays can fail due to small numerical errors )
btw, if you can post some cage screenshots I could tell you more things. Sure the cage covers COMPLETELY the highpoly model.
And hey! very nice 1st character!
High poly back
High poly side
High poly with fancy viewport lighting
And here are my first tries ever at normal mapping:
Normal mapped back
Normal mapped side
And now on to the not-so-fun stuff, questions:
Does anyone have any idea why one of the normal mapped bone spikes doesn't react right to lighting? I've double checked that there are no flipped normals in the base mesh and the upmost spike works just fine even though there shouldn't be any major differences between the spikes.
Wireframe
Normal map
Normal map with UV coordinates
It may be an issue in Blender too since I doesn't have any normal map preview - one has to render the scene to make it appear. I wish I could take a viewport shot to check it out there.
Well, I tried your suggestions and unchecking the back face lighting helped a bit but it was still full of holes. You can find pics of my cage, low and high poly set-up here:
Clicky!
I know that my low poly base mesh doesn't cover the high poly at all but I thought that making a cage in xNormal, saving it and using it in baking would have fixed it. I also tried modeling the low poly base mesh bigger and made it cover the high poly but it didn't help either. The problems may be caused by the openess of the base mesh since high poly isn't closed inside it (hard to explain but I hope the pics will clear things up).
I'd also like to ask how people usually bake normal maps for sub-d modeled hard edge stuff. Isn't it so that you can't actually create "rounded" edges with normal maps and that they don't act well with 90 degree angles? I'm trying to figure out how I could give my monster's weapon hand a good and believeable normal map with details that'd soften the form a bit.
And finally, could you guys give me tips for hiding normal map seams? By welding some of the body parts in the UV map I've got rid off some but I think and hope there's are other ways to do it too.
Looking forward to getting some feedback and help.
(PS. I had to double post since I got some error every time I tried to include everything in one single reply)
make sure you click "use cage" in the lowpoly options too.
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Yeah, I've made sure of that. Didn't help.
And thanks for the tips Ged, will try those out.
If you get triangles "not painted" in the normal map can be due to bad concave polygons tessellation.. try to triangulate your model before to export.
About the spikes, looks like flipped normals, denormalized ones(the average is zero) or some kind of vertex normals problem.
Try to set very well the normals there and export using other model format ( and rember to reset XForm in 3dsmax / Freeze transformations in Maya before to export or equivalent. Btw the LWO format does NOT export vertex normals if you are using it )
Try also to render a object-space normal map instead of tangent-space one to discard any error with the tangent basis calculation ( and notice you need to set TWICE this option... one generating the map and other when you assign the normal map texture slow for the viewer )