Just because he doesn't qualify every statement doesn't mean he is talking about absolutes. If I said "chairs have four legs", you would have to be retarded to think I mean that every chair in the universe has four legs.
I happen to think Rorshach probably knows a lot more about game developement than you do.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
oxy: having heard a guy talk about something you don't have first hand experience of and then forming opinions upon that doesn't make people with 1sthand knowledge respect you!
[/ QUOTE ]
Sir, you constantly try to make absolutes when you have no right to with your own limited experience inside the industry. Have you worked at every type of game company? Whats the smallest and largest? Have you worked in all the different sections like casual, independant, or serious for any length of time? I brought up you mod history as that was the closest I could think of that you might have been able to relate to what I described.
So since you cannot admit to all of the above, you MUST logically concede that you cannot go establishing absolutes. You are not God. I even admitted for your situation (and likely the majority), yet you will not do the same. For shame! That sir, is a double standard which you try to justify on your own limited viewpoint as if it means more in this context.
If we limited this to speaking as such triple A houses, again as I said. You have a valid point. Otherwise, hogwash.
Do you want me to put up? I will email the gentleman tommorrow for that "getaway" as per who sponsors it and such. You can tell me that second hand is as such, however it is hard to argue with an actual conference where indeed they do share.
So please. You need to stop with your conceited "absolutes". I would hope by your age you would have realized the world is shades of greys by now.
Thank you.
Respectfully,
oXYnary
[/ QUOTE ]
Gentlemen, I present to you the introductory stages of backpedalling.
I've shipped 12 titles over 10 years on PC, PS1, PS2, Xbox and Xbox360 in the positions of art, level & game design.
How much experience I have and in how many different forms doesn't really matter though when the point being made here is that I have experience and you don't.
Also, you're the only one assuming there are any absolutes being stated by me , other than the one I truly am stating which is that you don't know what you are talking about on the subject of the games industry as you have never worked professionally within it.
And why on earth would I require a link to the info you heard at an IGDA event? The IGDA periodically meet at the office in which I work, some of the people I work with are quite well established within the organisation, I have an IGDA card!!!
Anyway, I've had enough fun at your expense, if you want to continue the comedy relief for the others, go ahead but I'm done pointing out what should be obvious to you!
r.
PS. Do you think you are in a medieval novel or something btw? I keep waiting for you to say forsooth or something.
I can sort of see both Oxy's and Ror's points.
When I was at a small studio (10 People) I said
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they said "Sweet good Idea Josh!" and did it.
I went to a medium sized studio (50 people) and said
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they said "Yeah were already working on it!"
Im now at a huge studio(100+ people) and I say
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they say "laugh Laugh" and then walk away.
and to keep on topic, I rarely tell people what I do, and when I do, they either think Im the coolest, or Im contributing to the collective brain rot of our children.
[ QUOTE ]
I can sort of see both Oxy's and Ror's points.
When I was at a small studio (10 People) I said
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they said "Sweet good Idea Josh!" and did it.
I went to a medium sized studio (50 people) and said
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they said "Yeah were already working on it!"
Im now at a huge studio(100+ people) and I say
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they say "laugh Laugh" and then walk away.
and to keep on topic, I rarely tell people what I do, and when I do, they either think Im the coolest, or Im contributing to the collective brain rot of our children.
[/ QUOTE ]
Word, the only time i would ever attempt to explain to people what i do i already know they would understand beforehand(atleast to some extent!). Atempting to do otherwise is just retarded.
Ror: thanks for providing some good entertianment tonight.
[ QUOTE ]
Sadly Rick is right about most of his points, likewise the notions that designers don't need to know much about story.
[/ QUOTE ]
You keep using conlusions as arguments while they should be drawn because of arguments. And if someone disagrees, you quote your years of experience in front of a computer to shut him up.
A guy who works at a bank counter will never know as much about the company as the members of the supervisory board, even if he has worked there for a longer time than they did. (I'm not comparing oxy with members of the supervisory board though)
[ QUOTE ]
I happen to think Rorshach probably knows a lot more about game developement than you do.
[ QUOTE ]
PS. Do you think you are in a medieval novel or something btw? I keep waiting for you to say forsooth or something.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? I thought his last post had more of a late 19th-century aristocrat overtone. *bestows monocle* "I say good sir, your manner of argumentation is not only puerile and insulting, but it is an affront to logic itself as well. Indubitably! And as you have demonstrated a complete inability to debate civilly, I will henceforth keep my cogitations to myself. Harrumph!"
Rick is dead on. I do a presentation on 10 Game Development Myths for the Guildhall open houses. This is one of my points. Want to work in games? Develop the craft skills that will make you attractive to a game company.
LS: Yeah if I were in a serious debate about something, simply throwing up years of experience would be a poor substitute for clear explanations.
But I'm talking to oxy which has always been like talking to a child in the past and I've found its never worth explaining colour to the colour blind.
Trying to explain that a collaborative process of design in the industry generally consists more of the rest of the team outside of the designer making tiny contributions or helping them decide between blue shade 27 or blude shade 29
would have have been an excercise in futility.
Likewise the further point that the expectancy of the inexperienced that they will get to affect a large portion of design by commitee and that it will lead to a better game is flawed because 99% of the time its a system guarenteed to water down a good idea or lead the design off in multiple directions would be pointless.
Experience teaches most of us that whilst we'd like to have ideas and have them taken into the game, there needs to be a benevelant dictatorship in place with a very small core number of people (2 or 3) responsible for design if there is any hope of making a good clear and focussed game in an expediant fashion.
There's never an answer that oxy will understand, there's only ever an answer that will be read incorrectly, taken through the idiotimeter , thrown back at the speaker and requiring the speaker to rexplain again in smaller words.
It's pointless, that's why I was just making fun of him because I don't think he's worth making the effort I do with others, like I am with yourself.
You might consider it worth digging out the MGS4 thread that came up here a while ago and note the time I was willing to spend reiterating and clarifying my position to vermillion who is someone who does not often agree with me, but is someone I respect based on his past communications and the effort he expends in attempting likewise to be clear.
While I don't comment here so much, I do still read a good bit and based on that, I will or will not take the time for people if they /their opinions / past attitudes merit it.
[ QUOTE ]
Trying to explain that a collaborative process of design in the industry generally consists more of the rest of the team outside of the designer making tiny contributions or helping them decide between blue shade 27 or blude shade 29
[/ QUOTE ]
In a large/some company.
[ QUOTE ]
Likewise the further point that the expectancy of the inexperienced that they will get to affect a large portion of design by commitee and that it will lead to a better game is flawed because 99% of the time its a system guarenteed to water down a good idea or lead the design off in multiple directions would be pointless.
[/ QUOTE ]
In a large/some company
You keep forgetting to add that bit. Why? Ghostrider already showed what I was attempting to say after your initial correction. Instead you claim dominance and superiority. While in truth, was <u>I did have a point</u>. You have never totally disproven, instead relying on your own limited experience inside the industry as proof of the pudding.
The response to you initial was admitting to your viewpoint of it in many circumstances being little more than word play. "If you want to work for a larger company for a bigger paycheck, but where you are another artist.. then yea, you have a valid point. ". How has that escaped anyone? How the hell am I all of a sudden backpedling? What exactly is wrong with some of you? If anything, Ror has never admitted that I had a point as far as I can tell. Who is the more honest speaker?
But yea, I piss some people off. Instead of trying to find what we both are saying, it becomes jabs. So next time you speak of maturity, remember your own guilt and assumptions.
As you say I won't listen, Im sure you will not as well. It funny because I feel the same way when arguing with Verm as you do Ror. Could it be that *gasp* we may be too much the same? Each stuck in their own island of self righteousness.
Anyhow, this has gone on far too long, and it will just reach further points of jabs and inmaturity from people who have nothing to add. So I leave the above as my final statement on the matter.
i've worked in a team where there were 7 of us, 15 of us, 30 of us, 28, 200, 24, and currently i work in a company of 82 people across 3 projects ( UT,Gears of War, Engine) with the UT team being less than half the size of your average game.
Does ANYONE in this thread still wonder why I just take the piss out of dopey rather than bother trying to explain anything? I think he's making a pretty clear example of what I explained to LS in my last post!
Experience teaches most of us that whilst we'd like to have ideas and have them taken into the game, there needs to be a benevelant dictatorship in place with a very small core number of people (2 or 3) responsible for design if there is any hope of making a good clear and focussed game in an expediant fashion.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you there, in my experience it's always good to take others peoples ideas into consideration, but it's very unlikely that a game will be a consistent experience if too many people are directly responsible for the design.
Whether I agree with how you argue with Oxy doesn't matter here (it looks like I missed a couple of discussions between the two of you), but I understand that it can be a pain to discuss a matter extensively over a forum.
I know that often mod experience is not even remotely indicative of real world experience in a real studio but the logic of "too many cooks stirring one pot" applies everywhere... Everyone has ideas and everyone wants to voice their opinion, but in the end you require an iron fist to set things straight. Otherwise it really doesnt work.
But i guess the thread has digressed into "who has the biggest penis"
Sir, you constantly try to make absolutes when you have no right to with your own limited experience inside the industry. Have you worked at every type of game company? Whats the smallest and largest? Have you worked in all the different sections like casual, independant, or serious for any length of time? I brought up you mod history as that was the closest I could think of that you might have been able to relate to what I described.
So since you cannot admit to all of the above, you MUST logically concede that you cannot go establishing absolutes. You are not God. I even admitted for your situation (and likely the majority), yet you will not do the same. For shame! That sir, is a double standard which you try to justify on your own limited viewpoint as if it means more in this context.
If we limited this to speaking as such triple A houses, again as I said. You have a valid point. Otherwise, hogwash.
Do you want me to put up? I will email the gentleman tommorrow for that "getaway" as per who sponsors it and such. You can tell me that second hand is as such, however it is hard to argue with an actual conference where indeed they do share.
So please. You need to stop with your conceited "absolutes". I would hope by your age you would have realized the world is shades of greys by now.
Thank you.
Respectfully,
oXYnary
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude: argue less, art more. Fancy talk just makes you look like a terminally indignant tool.
OMG, I havn't laughed so hard in an age
Was I this annoying in my stupid article thread? If so I owe you all an appology Hehe, guess you just have to know when to give up or move it over to IM.
What I know about the game industry and its methods could be fitted up above rabits ass without it noticing. So I'll just keep quiet
I have always found it amazing, that when someone that has no experience finds a place where proffesionals drop by and give there time, and sound advice. That they then get told that they have no clue to what they are saying, because this person has gone to one class, and now has all the answers. Even though this thread made me sit back and laugh at some of the balls/ego/stupidity of some people, it also made me sad that this is how alot of how our industry and talent is treated and taken light of. Not trying to continue this thread past the point it has been taken, but just thought that needed to be said.
[ QUOTE ]
You keep forgetting to add that bit. Why? Ghostrider already showed what I was attempting to say after your initial correction. Instead you claim dominance and superiority. While in truth, was <u>I did have a point</u>. You have never totally disproven, instead relying on your own limited experience inside the industry as proof of the pudding.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oxy, do you have any experience that proves your point?
[ QUOTE ]
It funny because I feel the same way when arguing with Verm as you do Ror. Could it be that *gasp* we may be too much the same? Each stuck in their own island of self righteousness.
[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly, you boys feel the same way because you recognize my awesomeness and secretly know that I'm always right...
With regards to this thread, I'm mostly in agreement with Rick, but I think his "designers need not know..." assessment goes too far. While average designers may not know about a given topic to make a given game, I think good designers make the effort to learn or find others who know. I doubt Sid Meier is an expert on railroads, but I don't think he pulled the content for Railroads! out of his ass, either. Content can be divorced from the gameplay to a certain degree, but I rarely find that's preferrable with any game that has a real-world context. Accurate details can't make a bad game good, but the extra layer of interest can make a good game great.
Disclaimer: that is of course somewhat genre related. You make Tetris, you've got a paradigm that's research free. You make Gran Turismo, you had damned well better have some serious auto racing geeks on staff with the knowledge to influence your design as appropriate.
On the broader topic of ideas... great design rarely comes from a committee. The muse strikes when she wants, and it's not an area-of-effect spell...
With regards to this thread, I'm mostly in agreement with Rick, but I think his "designers need not know..." assessment goes too far. While average designers may not know about a given topic to make a given game, I think good designers make the effort to learn or find others who know. I doubt Sid Meier is an expert on railroads, but I don't think he pulled the content for Railroads! out of his ass, either. Content can be divorced from the gameplay to a certain degree, but I rarely find that's preferrable with any game that has a real-world context. Accurate details can't make a bad game good, but the extra layer of interest can make a good game great.
Disclaimer: that is of course somewhat genre related. You make Tetris, you've got a paradigm that's research free. You make Gran Turismo, you had damned well better have some serious auto racing geeks on staff with the knowledge to influence your design as appropriate.
On the broader topic of ideas... great design rarely comes from a committee. The muse strikes when she wants, and it's not an area-of-effect spell...
[/ QUOTE ]
You put it way better than I did. That's exactly what I think.
"I've got a great idea for a game. I think I'd be a good ideas person."
I've heard that countless times when people find out what I do for a living. The conversation is usually along the lines of:
"So what do you do?"
I'm an artist.
"Ah, so do you get to design the games?"
No, I'm an artist, I make art.
Then the person decides that I must be rich, and games are easy work, and that they could make games for a living - except that they have no programming or art skills. So what does that leave (apart from producing, sound, localisation, testing, HR and PR)?
Designing. They are an ideas person. Good at stories. And they have an idea.
Now, I hate to burst anyones bubble, but games companies up and down the land are not gnashing their teeth and beating their breasts due to lack of ideas. Hell, ask any one person in a games company for 5 ideas and you'll have them in 5 minutes. As someone who has never worked in games you are not going to walk into a company and have them proclaim 'Hallelujah! We are saved!'.
Games companies don't need ideas.
I don't need you idea either. For one thing, I've already got ideas, and they've already been refined. Yes, I'm saying that my ideas are better than yours. Yes, I am that egotistical. I don't care about your idea, I care about mine.
Oh, and one final point - I legally don't want to hear your idea. Let's say that the place I worked for was making a game where you were a dinosaur that transformed into a spaceship to track down evil magic cowboys, and you told me in the pub that you had an idea where you were a magic cowboy hunting dinosaurs. The two are unrelated, but you could claim when the game was released that it had been your idea. This is not uncommon, and I've worked for a company where this happened - two guys claimed that we overheard them talking in a pub and stole their idea (when in fact the game idea had come from a few years previously in a city a few hundred miles away). They tried to sue - and whilst they lost, they had to be taken seriously.
But anyway. I don't care about your ideas. Mine are better.
Replies
I happen to think Rorshach probably knows a lot more about game developement than you do.
[ QUOTE ]
oxy: having heard a guy talk about something you don't have first hand experience of and then forming opinions upon that doesn't make people with 1sthand knowledge respect you!
[/ QUOTE ]
Sir, you constantly try to make absolutes when you have no right to with your own limited experience inside the industry. Have you worked at every type of game company? Whats the smallest and largest? Have you worked in all the different sections like casual, independant, or serious for any length of time? I brought up you mod history as that was the closest I could think of that you might have been able to relate to what I described.
So since you cannot admit to all of the above, you MUST logically concede that you cannot go establishing absolutes. You are not God. I even admitted for your situation (and likely the majority), yet you will not do the same. For shame! That sir, is a double standard which you try to justify on your own limited viewpoint as if it means more in this context.
If we limited this to speaking as such triple A houses, again as I said. You have a valid point. Otherwise, hogwash.
Do you want me to put up? I will email the gentleman tommorrow for that "getaway" as per who sponsors it and such. You can tell me that second hand is as such, however it is hard to argue with an actual conference where indeed they do share.
So please. You need to stop with your conceited "absolutes". I would hope by your age you would have realized the world is shades of greys by now.
Thank you.
Respectfully,
oXYnary
[/ QUOTE ]
Gentlemen, I present to you the introductory stages of backpedalling.
Dammit, you stole my idea for the Space Dino Cowboy Hunters! I'm sueing you!
[/ QUOTE ]
It's already been done anyway
How much experience I have and in how many different forms doesn't really matter though when the point being made here is that I have experience and you don't.
Also, you're the only one assuming there are any absolutes being stated by me , other than the one I truly am stating which is that you don't know what you are talking about on the subject of the games industry as you have never worked professionally within it.
And why on earth would I require a link to the info you heard at an IGDA event? The IGDA periodically meet at the office in which I work, some of the people I work with are quite well established within the organisation, I have an IGDA card!!!
Anyway, I've had enough fun at your expense, if you want to continue the comedy relief for the others, go ahead but I'm done pointing out what should be obvious to you!
r.
PS. Do you think you are in a medieval novel or something btw? I keep waiting for you to say forsooth or something.
When I was at a small studio (10 People) I said
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they said "Sweet good Idea Josh!" and did it.
I went to a medium sized studio (50 people) and said
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they said "Yeah were already working on it!"
Im now at a huge studio(100+ people) and I say
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they say "laugh Laugh" and then walk away.
and to keep on topic, I rarely tell people what I do, and when I do, they either think Im the coolest, or Im contributing to the collective brain rot of our children.
I can sort of see both Oxy's and Ror's points.
When I was at a small studio (10 People) I said
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they said "Sweet good Idea Josh!" and did it.
I went to a medium sized studio (50 people) and said
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they said "Yeah were already working on it!"
Im now at a huge studio(100+ people) and I say
"hey I think the boss needs a health bar so the player can see his progess throught the boss battle!"
and they say "laugh Laugh" and then walk away.
and to keep on topic, I rarely tell people what I do, and when I do, they either think Im the coolest, or Im contributing to the collective brain rot of our children.
[/ QUOTE ]
Word, the only time i would ever attempt to explain to people what i do i already know they would understand beforehand(atleast to some extent!). Atempting to do otherwise is just retarded.
Ror: thanks for providing some good entertianment tonight.
Sadly Rick is right about most of his points, likewise the notions that designers don't need to know much about story.
[/ QUOTE ]
You keep using conlusions as arguments while they should be drawn because of arguments. And if someone disagrees, you quote your years of experience in front of a computer to shut him up.
A guy who works at a bank counter will never know as much about the company as the members of the supervisory board, even if he has worked there for a longer time than they did. (I'm not comparing oxy with members of the supervisory board though)
[ QUOTE ]
I happen to think Rorshach probably knows a lot more about game developement than you do.
[/ QUOTE ]
I feel like back on the schoolyard.
PS. Do you think you are in a medieval novel or something btw? I keep waiting for you to say forsooth or something.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? I thought his last post had more of a late 19th-century aristocrat overtone. *bestows monocle* "I say good sir, your manner of argumentation is not only puerile and insulting, but it is an affront to logic itself as well. Indubitably! And as you have demonstrated a complete inability to debate civilly, I will henceforth keep my cogitations to myself. Harrumph!"
I feel like back on the schoolyard.
[/ QUOTE ]
Huh. I wouldn't know about that. I have never been on a schoolyard... at least not during school hours.
But I'm talking to oxy which has always been like talking to a child in the past and I've found its never worth explaining colour to the colour blind.
Trying to explain that a collaborative process of design in the industry generally consists more of the rest of the team outside of the designer making tiny contributions or helping them decide between blue shade 27 or blude shade 29
would have have been an excercise in futility.
Likewise the further point that the expectancy of the inexperienced that they will get to affect a large portion of design by commitee and that it will lead to a better game is flawed because 99% of the time its a system guarenteed to water down a good idea or lead the design off in multiple directions would be pointless.
Experience teaches most of us that whilst we'd like to have ideas and have them taken into the game, there needs to be a benevelant dictatorship in place with a very small core number of people (2 or 3) responsible for design if there is any hope of making a good clear and focussed game in an expediant fashion.
There's never an answer that oxy will understand, there's only ever an answer that will be read incorrectly, taken through the idiotimeter , thrown back at the speaker and requiring the speaker to rexplain again in smaller words.
It's pointless, that's why I was just making fun of him because I don't think he's worth making the effort I do with others, like I am with yourself.
You might consider it worth digging out the MGS4 thread that came up here a while ago and note the time I was willing to spend reiterating and clarifying my position to vermillion who is someone who does not often agree with me, but is someone I respect based on his past communications and the effort he expends in attempting likewise to be clear.
While I don't comment here so much, I do still read a good bit and based on that, I will or will not take the time for people if they /their opinions / past attitudes merit it.
oh fucking BURN
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh RRRReginald ..... ........ I DISAGREE !!!!!
Trying to explain that a collaborative process of design in the industry generally consists more of the rest of the team outside of the designer making tiny contributions or helping them decide between blue shade 27 or blude shade 29
[/ QUOTE ]
In a large/some company.
[ QUOTE ]
Likewise the further point that the expectancy of the inexperienced that they will get to affect a large portion of design by commitee and that it will lead to a better game is flawed because 99% of the time its a system guarenteed to water down a good idea or lead the design off in multiple directions would be pointless.
[/ QUOTE ]
In a large/some company
You keep forgetting to add that bit. Why? Ghostrider already showed what I was attempting to say after your initial correction. Instead you claim dominance and superiority. While in truth, was <u>I did have a point</u>. You have never totally disproven, instead relying on your own limited experience inside the industry as proof of the pudding.
The response to you initial was admitting to your viewpoint of it in many circumstances being little more than word play. "If you want to work for a larger company for a bigger paycheck, but where you are another artist.. then yea, you have a valid point. ". How has that escaped anyone? How the hell am I all of a sudden backpedling? What exactly is wrong with some of you? If anything, Ror has never admitted that I had a point as far as I can tell. Who is the more honest speaker?
But yea, I piss some people off. Instead of trying to find what we both are saying, it becomes jabs. So next time you speak of maturity, remember your own guilt and assumptions.
As you say I won't listen, Im sure you will not as well. It funny because I feel the same way when arguing with Verm as you do Ror. Could it be that *gasp* we may be too much the same? Each stuck in their own island of self righteousness.
Anyhow, this has gone on far too long, and it will just reach further points of jabs and inmaturity from people who have nothing to add. So I leave the above as my final statement on the matter.
relying on your own limited experience inside the industry as proof of the pudding.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm just gonna take off my moderator hat for a minute and put on my "LOL" hat...
I don't think anyone can really accuse Rorshach of having "limited" experience in the games industry... especially someone such as yourself, oXYnary.
That is all.
Does ANYONE in this thread still wonder why I just take the piss out of dopey rather than bother trying to explain anything? I think he's making a pretty clear example of what I explained to LS in my last post!
r.
[ QUOTE ]
relying on your own limited experience inside the industry as proof of the pudding.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm just gonna take off my moderator hat for a minute and put on my "LOL" hat...
I don't think anyone can really accuse Rorshach of having "limited" experience in the games industry... especially someone such as yourself, oXYnary.
That is all.
[/ QUOTE ]
it does make oxys signature ring true though
[/ QUOTE ]
Experience teaches most of us that whilst we'd like to have ideas and have them taken into the game, there needs to be a benevelant dictatorship in place with a very small core number of people (2 or 3) responsible for design if there is any hope of making a good clear and focussed game in an expediant fashion.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you there, in my experience it's always good to take others peoples ideas into consideration, but it's very unlikely that a game will be a consistent experience if too many people are directly responsible for the design.
Whether I agree with how you argue with Oxy doesn't matter here (it looks like I missed a couple of discussions between the two of you), but I understand that it can be a pain to discuss a matter extensively over a forum.
But i guess the thread has digressed into "who has the biggest penis"
But i guess the thread has digressed into "who has the biggest penis"
[/ QUOTE ]
Or who has the least sandy vagina.
But i guess the thread has digressed into "who has the biggest penis"
[/ QUOTE ]
Just for the record, it's me. I have the biggest penis.
r.
Sir, you constantly try to make absolutes when you have no right to with your own limited experience inside the industry. Have you worked at every type of game company? Whats the smallest and largest? Have you worked in all the different sections like casual, independant, or serious for any length of time? I brought up you mod history as that was the closest I could think of that you might have been able to relate to what I described.
So since you cannot admit to all of the above, you MUST logically concede that you cannot go establishing absolutes. You are not God. I even admitted for your situation (and likely the majority), yet you will not do the same. For shame! That sir, is a double standard which you try to justify on your own limited viewpoint as if it means more in this context.
If we limited this to speaking as such triple A houses, again as I said. You have a valid point. Otherwise, hogwash.
Do you want me to put up? I will email the gentleman tommorrow for that "getaway" as per who sponsors it and such. You can tell me that second hand is as such, however it is hard to argue with an actual conference where indeed they do share.
So please. You need to stop with your conceited "absolutes". I would hope by your age you would have realized the world is shades of greys by now.
Thank you.
Respectfully,
oXYnary
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude: argue less, art more. Fancy talk just makes you look like a terminally indignant tool.
Was I this annoying in my stupid article thread? If so I owe you all an appology
What I know about the game industry and its methods could be fitted up above rabits ass without it noticing. So I'll just keep quiet
Spark
wanna see them.
You keep forgetting to add that bit. Why? Ghostrider already showed what I was attempting to say after your initial correction. Instead you claim dominance and superiority. While in truth, was <u>I did have a point</u>. You have never totally disproven, instead relying on your own limited experience inside the industry as proof of the pudding.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oxy, do you have any experience that proves your point?
Oh, you don't?
Never mind, then.
Frank the Avenger
It funny because I feel the same way when arguing with Verm as you do Ror. Could it be that *gasp* we may be too much the same? Each stuck in their own island of self righteousness.
[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly, you boys feel the same way because you recognize my awesomeness and secretly know that I'm always right...
With regards to this thread, I'm mostly in agreement with Rick, but I think his "designers need not know..." assessment goes too far. While average designers may not know about a given topic to make a given game, I think good designers make the effort to learn or find others who know. I doubt Sid Meier is an expert on railroads, but I don't think he pulled the content for Railroads! out of his ass, either. Content can be divorced from the gameplay to a certain degree, but I rarely find that's preferrable with any game that has a real-world context. Accurate details can't make a bad game good, but the extra layer of interest can make a good game great.
Disclaimer: that is of course somewhat genre related. You make Tetris, you've got a paradigm that's research free. You make Gran Turismo, you had damned well better have some serious auto racing geeks on staff with the knowledge to influence your design as appropriate.
On the broader topic of ideas... great design rarely comes from a committee. The muse strikes when she wants, and it's not an area-of-effect spell...
Perhaps even use a very agressive font
Oxy, do you have any experience that proves your point?
Oh, you don't?
Never mind, then.
Frank the Avenger
[/ QUOTE ]
There's some good ol' argumentum ad verecundiam right thur.
With regards to this thread, I'm mostly in agreement with Rick, but I think his "designers need not know..." assessment goes too far. While average designers may not know about a given topic to make a given game, I think good designers make the effort to learn or find others who know. I doubt Sid Meier is an expert on railroads, but I don't think he pulled the content for Railroads! out of his ass, either. Content can be divorced from the gameplay to a certain degree, but I rarely find that's preferrable with any game that has a real-world context. Accurate details can't make a bad game good, but the extra layer of interest can make a good game great.
Disclaimer: that is of course somewhat genre related. You make Tetris, you've got a paradigm that's research free. You make Gran Turismo, you had damned well better have some serious auto racing geeks on staff with the knowledge to influence your design as appropriate.
On the broader topic of ideas... great design rarely comes from a committee. The muse strikes when she wants, and it's not an area-of-effect spell...
[/ QUOTE ]
You put it way better than I did. That's exactly what I think.
As I mentioned, I am awesome and always right.
just close the damn topic.
====
"I've got a great idea for a game. I think I'd be a good ideas person."
I've heard that countless times when people find out what I do for a living. The conversation is usually along the lines of:
"So what do you do?"
I'm an artist.
"Ah, so do you get to design the games?"
No, I'm an artist, I make art.
Then the person decides that I must be rich, and games are easy work, and that they could make games for a living - except that they have no programming or art skills. So what does that leave (apart from producing, sound, localisation, testing, HR and PR)?
Designing. They are an ideas person. Good at stories. And they have an idea.
Now, I hate to burst anyones bubble, but games companies up and down the land are not gnashing their teeth and beating their breasts due to lack of ideas. Hell, ask any one person in a games company for 5 ideas and you'll have them in 5 minutes. As someone who has never worked in games you are not going to walk into a company and have them proclaim 'Hallelujah! We are saved!'.
Games companies don't need ideas.
I don't need you idea either. For one thing, I've already got ideas, and they've already been refined. Yes, I'm saying that my ideas are better than yours. Yes, I am that egotistical. I don't care about your idea, I care about mine.
Oh, and one final point - I legally don't want to hear your idea. Let's say that the place I worked for was making a game where you were a dinosaur that transformed into a spaceship to track down evil magic cowboys, and you told me in the pub that you had an idea where you were a magic cowboy hunting dinosaurs. The two are unrelated, but you could claim when the game was released that it had been your idea. This is not uncommon, and I've worked for a company where this happened - two guys claimed that we overheard them talking in a pub and stole their idea (when in fact the game idea had come from a few years previously in a city a few hundred miles away). They tried to sue - and whilst they lost, they had to be taken seriously.
But anyway. I don't care about your ideas. Mine are better.
====
[/ QUOTE ]
bollocks