[ QUOTE ]
Darksun: Why does it have to be "people you know" before you'll believe it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't confuse "believing it" with "thinking it's a larger problem then it is". I never said it doesn't happen. I just think it has more to do with the person than the game.
btw, people who have seen it happen seem to think it's a huge problem that happens with most WoW players. Maybe it's true, but untill something conclusive pops up...
Some of us think it's a thing that happens to most WoW players because when i played, I could log on at 12 noon or 2 in the am and still see a lot of the same people always on. It was crazy. I was in a guild where some of the guys were on 12-13 hours a day. it was like a job for them. I dont know what they did for money, or how they got by, but it was just ridiculous.
I also have a friend that used to get mad if I leveled passed him. Like really mad. And this guy doesnt have a temper. It was like I was betraying him or something. WoW is fun, but many people dont know how to handle it in moderation. It just simply isnt in their system.
And i really dont agree with the"if they werent playing WoW, theyd be addicted to something else."
it just doesnt jive with what Ive seen in my own friends
[ QUOTE ]
When I played WoW, I played with a group of friends and I had to play every night, or else Id get passed up in level and wouldnt be able to party up with them anymore. I felt obligated to play at that point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im not so sure I would consider those people friends.
I have been in the same guild since launch and we all understand that life happens first, if you're not having fun or start to feel obligated to play we don't want you playing. It is a guild mission to keep people like your friends out of the guild. Someone that would hold it against me for not logging in for a week ends up on my ignore list, both in game and in life. I have little patients for asshats who demand I play their way on their time. I actually found it more beneficial for my characters to let everyone creep above me in levels. Im playing to play, if its not fun I wont be playing. The friends who had lvled past me would send me items they wouldn't need but I could use. Since they where higher than me I could always count on them coming to help me out and it wasnt a chore, we always had fun. All of us don't mind going back to some of the lower content and running a friend thru something they might sidestep but wanted to see. We still get to hang out even if its something we have done many times before. It's not the content that makes it fun, its the people I play with. We could be doing the DeadMines for the 200th time and still have fun. It doesn't speak well of friends if they assume they have complete mastery over your life and expect you to put in the same hours or level at the same pace.
I have been playing since the start of closed beta, I have a;
60 rogue, 60 mage, 48 Priest, 42 Warrior, 28 Priest (horde) 48 Mage 20 shammy. The majority of those where leveled at my leisure without having to group or party with people on a nightly basis and with no detriment to the other things in my life. Things like work on art, enjoy my family & exersise. I certainly never felt pressure to play when I didn't want to, especially from Blizzard. I never felt thier content was so compelling that I can't come back to it later.
Blizzard went out of their way to include ways for people to side step content that requires a group. There are classes built into the game that allow people to solo to 60 as if it was a single player game. What they didnt build in is a players lack of self control and weakness for self moderation. It is not blizzards fault that players where not taught early or failed to teach themselves these things. They do try to help, there are parental controls ANYONE can use if they have problems moderating the time they are playing. People have to learn how to self regulate their actions at some point. If not, its like theyre bowling with bumpers, or they still have their training wheels on. Grow up, grow a pair and learn to tell yourself no once in a while. That doesnt mean you have to sling shot to the other end and quit cold turkey but learn moderation. You really didnt beat the addition if you just side step it.
Also most of us are couples that knew each other before we started playing and dont get to see each other all that often. Its great to be able to chat with them over vent. My wife plays right next to me most of the time, if she didn't, the people I play with would understand why I wouldn't be on as much. If they cant, then you shouldnt be playing with them.
reminds me of a guild's recruitment forum someone posted in #md. to be thier tank you HAVE to be available every weekday from 7pm until 1am for raids and on weekends sometimes from 5pm until 1am or later.
and yeah, ive known someone who was very close to me to use WoW as a surrogate for Real Life and found it easier to keep commitments to and talk with her guild than to me.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw, what is normal & active to you?
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, having meaningful social relationships, having sex, companionship, attempting to keep reasonably fit and healthy.
[/ QUOTE ]
what if i like sex, being social, working out, and WoW?
now what
Seriously though, you're right. my old boss lost his BUSINESS due to WoW. I wish I was kidding. I like to keep my gaming and the rest of my life seperate in order to keep the unhealthy nerdy side of me from showing too often. For example, my girlfriend doesn't play video games, I like to do physical activies, and I like to go out, but occasionally after I'm done with all of those things, I come home and plop down in the chair to hand out some sauce.
From a personal perspective - I do NOT have an addictive personality. I don't smoke, drink coffee, gamble, only drink alcohol occasionally, and don't do drugs. But I have been hooked on a MMORPG (not WoW). For me, it was always just a "I've got nothing better to do so I'll log on for a few hours". A few hours turn into 5-6. I've always played games, but there is something about playing with the same players day in a day out. When I wasn't playing, I was thinking about what fun times I was missing out on. I wouldn't say that I was a hardcore player though. I always (and still do) considered myself a casual player (definately compared to others).
Once I realized that I was playing too much and was becoming hooked, I made a promise to myself. I could play as much as I wanted, as long as I NEVER canceled a real life commitment or passed up ANY opportunity to go out and and keep up my life. This worked out well for me, until I started to not make as many plans as I would normally. Once I realized this, I quit the game. I was very difficult, and I was going through "withdrawls", but I knew that it was for the best. I'll probably never play another MMORPG as they seem to by my weakness. They are the only thing that I am addicted to. So saying that if I wasn't playing WoW or some MMORPG, that I would be doing some other vice isn't at all true.
Damn that's a lot of replies!. Well personally i dont care much for MMORPG, even if i did i couldnt spend all my free time playing..."real life" is keeping me busy enough. Also i'm such a cheap ass bastard that i wouldnt pay a monthly fee!.
I do know at least two people that are "addicted" but i think it's because they have nothing better to do, maybe having a job would fix that?
I dont see why so many of you find the need to jump her throat just because she is pointing out the problem?
From the article i got the impression that she just wants to help the addicted games, not ban mmo's or something.
But maybe for some of you the truth is too much to handle...
She blames the game company for making an "addictive" game and words her study as if they should be forced to change it. When the real issue is with the players lack of self control something Blizzard has no control over. Rather than putting the blame on the people who will read the study, she puts the blame on a "faceless company" that happens to have deep pockets. She's telling people what they want to hear, "Its not your fault you can't control yourself, its Blizzard".
Publishing this study is just as good as putting a bounty on Blizzard's head. Morons on capitol hill will want to "save the poor gamers from the evil company" and hopefully scoop up a few votes with concerned parents who actually would rather let the goverment raise thier kids while they take the credit if they turn out ok. If they don't, oh well it was society or the goverment let me down but its not my fault my kids are screwed up. If the politicians don't bite then it will be a lawyer who smells money.
edit: Vig, did you read the same article that i did?
Like she even said that Blizzard shouldnt be forced to change WoW but maybe put some warning lables on the boxes.
edit:edit: MMO's are engineered to be addictive, thats how they get your money. They prey on the feebleminded ON PURPOSE not by an accident.
The player and thier lack of self moderation. The game doesn't need to change, the people who have problems do.
[ QUOTE ]
Dr. Orzack: "Dr. Orzack: That's correct. Usually, some type of intervention is needed. Video games used to be contained in arcades, so there were certain limits imposed on the amount of time that you could play them. Now, with the Internet and computers in most people's homes, it has become harder to control."
[/ QUOTE ]
It becomes harder to control as if people shouldn't have to worry about moderating themselves, we should just force companies to make the game borring so it drives you to not play it.
Notice she is talking about the time limits arcade games had and that people where pretty much forced to stop, not because they could self moderate and walk awawy but because they would run out of quaters or the place would close.
She should promote self moderation and changing the players behavior not changing the game.
[ QUOTE ]
RW: According to your research, and your experience with patients, how many addicted gamers are there today?
Orzack: Well, let's take World of Warcraft as an example. Let's say there are around 6 million subscribers for the game. I'd say that 40 percent of the players are addicted.
[/ QUOTE ]
She calls it a study, but takes a guess at how many players are "addicted". I'm doing a study right now, 100% of old crones that make up data are full of it.
[ QUOTE ]
RW: What about the games themselves? What do you think should be done there?
Dr. Orzack: I think there needs to be warning labels on MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, similar to warning labels on cigarettes. People should know that these games are potentially harmful. I'm sure the game industry will be up in arms over it, but that's what I'd like to see happen. I don't think we have a right to make Blizzard or other game companies change their products, but that may be what this comes to, down the road.
[/ QUOTE ]
People in places of power will skip right to the but of her solution to gain votes in election years... oh is this an election year? oh yes it is. If they don't we'll see her quoted by Jack Thompson soon enough.
There used to be no speed limits either and drugs used to be legal.
People are selfdestructive and not very moderate by default so sometimes little regulation is needed.
I just started playing WoW over the last month. I love it but Im not addicted and wont be. There are just too many other important things I gotta do in life.
[ QUOTE ]
People are selfdestructive and not very moderate by default so sometimes little regulation is needed.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is what happens when we as a nation let the government raise our children. They only pass laws, not teach children like parents should. Maybe we as a society are so screwed up that we can't raise our kids right? I guess we just give up and not be parents. That way we can blame the government when we fail as parents.
I'll gather up the sharp sticks you get the sand paper and start rounding out all the corners, we better replace everyones stove with an easy bake oven so someone doesn't get burned. Trees make sticks lets cut them all down. Trees use the earth and water to grow more sharp sticks, we should blow this place up to save everyone.
Where does it stop? I'm so sick of people blaming something else when the problem doesn't need to be solved with another phonebook of laws. We don't need to toss another addiction on the pile and burden our social services more. We need good parents to step forward and not be afraid to tell their children no, and teach them self moderation.
You have to draw the line somewhere. When you start affecting the majority because of the weak few you should draw the line. Even by her best guess the total doesn't reach above 40%.
People know that hot stuff burn them and sharp stuff cut them, its taught to them from very early age.
But when someone comes out and says that MMO's are addictive people like you jump their throats.
Because as parents teaching our children to moderate themselves is just as important as telling them hot stuff burns and sharp things hurt. Its not only important for video games, but its important for eating habits, exercise, music, shopping, sleeping, driving, the list goes on. It could be the one skill children need most and most parents neglect to teach because they where never taught.
We have a nation full of people who are in debt because they can't spend in moderation. We have a nation full of fat asses because no one can eat in moderation. We have piles of laws to that force people to self govern but never teach them the skill or how to apply it to new situations so we end up with more silly laws.
We can't send children out into the world and expect them to be "normal and well adjusted" when no one gives them the skills they need. I jump down her throat because she seems too willing to put a label on a box and wave legislation at companies who have every right to build products how they see fit.
Besides putting a warning label would only backfire, just like the parental warning labels did with music. Maybe the ESRB should rate MMO's T for Teen since that is roughly a safe age when players should have been taught self moderation skills. Oh wait, they already do, oh geeze there's a label on the box everyone ignores, that does everything she says, we might as well go straight to the retractions on games.
Yeah my moms a teacher, I was brain washed at an early age that parents should step up and be parents and not put the burden on teachers, the government and those who don't have children. Yes it takes a village to raise a child, but that takes into account the village wants to raise your child. The government doesn't, millions of people who choose not to have kids don't want to and what kind of parents are they going to be? Very bad ones since they don't want the job.
Lets not give up on parents just yet, lets help them get the skills they where not taught so they can help their children.
[ QUOTE ]
Um, having meaningful social relationships, having sex, companionship, attempting to keep reasonably fit and healthy. God forbid, going outside. Having several interests other just ONE. Experiencing all the the things life has to offer other than being plugged into a fucking pc.
[/ QUOTE ]
By this logic I'm addicted to work.
Now that being said I admit that people with addictive personalities can get hooked on an MMO, but that's the people, not the game, as many have said. You take an average, healthy gamer and have them play WoW, odds are they won't forsake their life for it, unlike a true addictive substance which works the other way around. I wonder if this doctor is considering people in the first six months' excitement of 'so much to see and do' play as addicted? I did play, and it was exciting for six months or so, then it got dull. But I played a lot for that first six months, because it was all new and interesting. Was I addicted? No. But it might have looked like it to a psychologist out of touch with games and gamers.
I know a bunch of people in a large guild in WoW (I'm not a member, I don't play any more) that raid three times a week (or more) and all those I know have what I would consider healthy lives. I was at a party just this past weekend with a bunch of them. WoW was discussed, but it was nowhere near the only topic brought up. It's not the game.
Replies
Darksun: Why does it have to be "people you know" before you'll believe it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't confuse "believing it" with "thinking it's a larger problem then it is". I never said it doesn't happen. I just think it has more to do with the person than the game.
btw, people who have seen it happen seem to think it's a huge problem that happens with most WoW players. Maybe it's true, but untill something conclusive pops up...
I also have a friend that used to get mad if I leveled passed him. Like really mad. And this guy doesnt have a temper. It was like I was betraying him or something. WoW is fun, but many people dont know how to handle it in moderation. It just simply isnt in their system.
And i really dont agree with the"if they werent playing WoW, theyd be addicted to something else."
it just doesnt jive with what Ive seen in my own friends
Should we really be so guilty over doing something we might enjoy?
[/ QUOTE ]
Preach on Brother!! people have been riding my ass for years just cause i like to have sex with young boys.
When I played WoW, I played with a group of friends and I had to play every night, or else Id get passed up in level and wouldnt be able to party up with them anymore. I felt obligated to play at that point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im not so sure I would consider those people friends.
I have been in the same guild since launch and we all understand that life happens first, if you're not having fun or start to feel obligated to play we don't want you playing. It is a guild mission to keep people like your friends out of the guild. Someone that would hold it against me for not logging in for a week ends up on my ignore list, both in game and in life. I have little patients for asshats who demand I play their way on their time. I actually found it more beneficial for my characters to let everyone creep above me in levels. Im playing to play, if its not fun I wont be playing. The friends who had lvled past me would send me items they wouldn't need but I could use. Since they where higher than me I could always count on them coming to help me out and it wasnt a chore, we always had fun. All of us don't mind going back to some of the lower content and running a friend thru something they might sidestep but wanted to see. We still get to hang out even if its something we have done many times before. It's not the content that makes it fun, its the people I play with. We could be doing the DeadMines for the 200th time and still have fun. It doesn't speak well of friends if they assume they have complete mastery over your life and expect you to put in the same hours or level at the same pace.
I have been playing since the start of closed beta, I have a;
60 rogue, 60 mage, 48 Priest, 42 Warrior, 28 Priest (horde) 48 Mage 20 shammy. The majority of those where leveled at my leisure without having to group or party with people on a nightly basis and with no detriment to the other things in my life. Things like work on art, enjoy my family & exersise. I certainly never felt pressure to play when I didn't want to, especially from Blizzard. I never felt thier content was so compelling that I can't come back to it later.
Blizzard went out of their way to include ways for people to side step content that requires a group. There are classes built into the game that allow people to solo to 60 as if it was a single player game. What they didnt build in is a players lack of self control and weakness for self moderation. It is not blizzards fault that players where not taught early or failed to teach themselves these things. They do try to help, there are parental controls ANYONE can use if they have problems moderating the time they are playing. People have to learn how to self regulate their actions at some point. If not, its like theyre bowling with bumpers, or they still have their training wheels on. Grow up, grow a pair and learn to tell yourself no once in a while. That doesnt mean you have to sling shot to the other end and quit cold turkey but learn moderation. You really didnt beat the addition if you just side step it.
Also most of us are couples that knew each other before we started playing and dont get to see each other all that often. Its great to be able to chat with them over vent. My wife plays right next to me most of the time, if she didn't, the people I play with would understand why I wouldn't be on as much. If they cant, then you shouldnt be playing with them.
and yeah, ive known someone who was very close to me to use WoW as a surrogate for Real Life and found it easier to keep commitments to and talk with her guild than to me.
[ QUOTE ]
btw, what is normal & active to you?
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, having meaningful social relationships, having sex, companionship, attempting to keep reasonably fit and healthy.
[/ QUOTE ]
what if i like sex, being social, working out, and WoW?
now what
Seriously though, you're right. my old boss lost his BUSINESS due to WoW. I wish I was kidding. I like to keep my gaming and the rest of my life seperate in order to keep the unhealthy nerdy side of me from showing too often. For example, my girlfriend doesn't play video games, I like to do physical activies, and I like to go out, but occasionally after I'm done with all of those things, I come home and plop down in the chair to hand out some sauce.
Once I realized that I was playing too much and was becoming hooked, I made a promise to myself. I could play as much as I wanted, as long as I NEVER canceled a real life commitment or passed up ANY opportunity to go out and and keep up my life. This worked out well for me, until I started to not make as many plans as I would normally. Once I realized this, I quit the game. I was very difficult, and I was going through "withdrawls", but I knew that it was for the best. I'll probably never play another MMORPG as they seem to by my weakness. They are the only thing that I am addicted to. So saying that if I wasn't playing WoW or some MMORPG, that I would be doing some other vice isn't at all true.
Damn. That turned out to be pretty long.
I do know at least two people that are "addicted" but i think it's because they have nothing better to do, maybe having a job would fix that?
r.
From the article i got the impression that she just wants to help the addicted games, not ban mmo's or something.
But maybe for some of you the truth is too much to handle...
Publishing this study is just as good as putting a bounty on Blizzard's head. Morons on capitol hill will want to "save the poor gamers from the evil company" and hopefully scoop up a few votes with concerned parents who actually would rather let the goverment raise thier kids while they take the credit if they turn out ok. If they don't, oh well it was society or the goverment let me down but its not my fault my kids are screwed up. If the politicians don't bite then it will be a lawyer who smells money.
edit: Vig, did you read the same article that i did?
Like she even said that Blizzard shouldnt be forced to change WoW but maybe put some warning lables on the boxes.
edit:edit: MMO's are engineered to be addictive, thats how they get your money. They prey on the feebleminded ON PURPOSE not by an accident.
[ QUOTE ]
Dr. Orzack: "Dr. Orzack: That's correct. Usually, some type of intervention is needed. Video games used to be contained in arcades, so there were certain limits imposed on the amount of time that you could play them. Now, with the Internet and computers in most people's homes, it has become harder to control."
[/ QUOTE ]
It becomes harder to control as if people shouldn't have to worry about moderating themselves, we should just force companies to make the game borring so it drives you to not play it.
Notice she is talking about the time limits arcade games had and that people where pretty much forced to stop, not because they could self moderate and walk awawy but because they would run out of quaters or the place would close.
She should promote self moderation and changing the players behavior not changing the game.
[ QUOTE ]
RW: According to your research, and your experience with patients, how many addicted gamers are there today?
Orzack: Well, let's take World of Warcraft as an example. Let's say there are around 6 million subscribers for the game. I'd say that 40 percent of the players are addicted.
[/ QUOTE ]
She calls it a study, but takes a guess at how many players are "addicted". I'm doing a study right now, 100% of old crones that make up data are full of it.
[ QUOTE ]
RW: What about the games themselves? What do you think should be done there?
Dr. Orzack: I think there needs to be warning labels on MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, similar to warning labels on cigarettes. People should know that these games are potentially harmful. I'm sure the game industry will be up in arms over it, but that's what I'd like to see happen. I don't think we have a right to make Blizzard or other game companies change their products, but that may be what this comes to, down the road.
[/ QUOTE ]
People in places of power will skip right to the but of her solution to gain votes in election years... oh is this an election year? oh yes it is. If they don't we'll see her quoted by Jack Thompson soon enough.
There used to be no speed limits either and drugs used to be legal.
People are selfdestructive and not very moderate by default so sometimes little regulation is needed.
*goes back lurking*
People are selfdestructive and not very moderate by default so sometimes little regulation is needed.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is what happens when we as a nation let the government raise our children. They only pass laws, not teach children like parents should. Maybe we as a society are so screwed up that we can't raise our kids right? I guess we just give up and not be parents. That way we can blame the government when we fail as parents.
I'll gather up the sharp sticks you get the sand paper and start rounding out all the corners, we better replace everyones stove with an easy bake oven so someone doesn't get burned. Trees make sticks lets cut them all down. Trees use the earth and water to grow more sharp sticks, we should blow this place up to save everyone.
Where does it stop? I'm so sick of people blaming something else when the problem doesn't need to be solved with another phonebook of laws. We don't need to toss another addiction on the pile and burden our social services more. We need good parents to step forward and not be afraid to tell their children no, and teach them self moderation.
You have to draw the line somewhere. When you start affecting the majority because of the weak few you should draw the line. Even by her best guess the total doesn't reach above 40%.
But when someone comes out and says that MMO's are addictive people like you jump their throats.
We have a nation full of people who are in debt because they can't spend in moderation. We have a nation full of fat asses because no one can eat in moderation. We have piles of laws to that force people to self govern but never teach them the skill or how to apply it to new situations so we end up with more silly laws.
We can't send children out into the world and expect them to be "normal and well adjusted" when no one gives them the skills they need. I jump down her throat because she seems too willing to put a label on a box and wave legislation at companies who have every right to build products how they see fit.
Besides putting a warning label would only backfire, just like the parental warning labels did with music. Maybe the ESRB should rate MMO's T for Teen since that is roughly a safe age when players should have been taught self moderation skills. Oh wait, they already do, oh geeze there's a label on the box everyone ignores, that does everything she says, we might as well go straight to the retractions on games.
Yeah my moms a teacher, I was brain washed at an early age that parents should step up and be parents and not put the burden on teachers, the government and those who don't have children. Yes it takes a village to raise a child, but that takes into account the village wants to raise your child. The government doesn't, millions of people who choose not to have kids don't want to and what kind of parents are they going to be? Very bad ones since they don't want the job.
Lets not give up on parents just yet, lets help them get the skills they where not taught so they can help their children.
Um, having meaningful social relationships, having sex, companionship, attempting to keep reasonably fit and healthy. God forbid, going outside. Having several interests other just ONE. Experiencing all the the things life has to offer other than being plugged into a fucking pc.
[/ QUOTE ]
By this logic I'm addicted to work.
Now that being said I admit that people with addictive personalities can get hooked on an MMO, but that's the people, not the game, as many have said. You take an average, healthy gamer and have them play WoW, odds are they won't forsake their life for it, unlike a true addictive substance which works the other way around. I wonder if this doctor is considering people in the first six months' excitement of 'so much to see and do' play as addicted? I did play, and it was exciting for six months or so, then it got dull. But I played a lot for that first six months, because it was all new and interesting. Was I addicted? No. But it might have looked like it to a psychologist out of touch with games and gamers.
I know a bunch of people in a large guild in WoW (I'm not a member, I don't play any more) that raid three times a week (or more) and all those I know have what I would consider healthy lives. I was at a party just this past weekend with a bunch of them. WoW was discussed, but it was nowhere near the only topic brought up. It's not the game.
Frank the Avenger