America: Freedom to Facism
polycounter lvl 19
This movie looks interesting:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/americafreedomtofascism/trailer/
My issue, with the messages being said in this video and those in other documentaries (etc. etc.), is that I can't tell what fact and what's fiction - and that scares me.
Who's telling the truth?
Who's telling the truth anymore?
http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/americafreedomtofascism/trailer/
My issue, with the messages being said in this video and those in other documentaries (etc. etc.), is that I can't tell what fact and what's fiction - and that scares me.
Who's telling the truth?
Who's telling the truth anymore?
Replies
You guys are silly. Without government, there is no civilization.
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Very high end civilization would not need a goverment, if everyone knows and does what they are supposed to do without asking then you would not need anyone to point the finger thus the goverment would be useless.
Ofcourse its very utopic but still theoretically possible.
... now, where did i put those lecture notes?
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They were seized.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Still rings true to this day,i remember all the fear mongering after 9/11 by the press and politicians to scare people into signing away their liberty little by little,whats really sad is that many Americans are ignorant to this.
I always found it ironic and funny that so many people said that the terrorist were out to destroy our freedoms, surprise terroists!! how can you take our freedoms when we are already destroying them ourselves.
Terrorists are trying to steal our freedoms! Let's adopt the Soviet scorched earth policy so they can't take them!
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Atleast soviets were very clear about what you can and can not do.
id chips are a good idea for crime and so on, but as the pairents of a new born child, you would want a Choice.
id cards are good for security of your own identity and help with many processes from renting a car to buying a house. Especially when twinned with a bank account, you would want a Right.
Killing someone just because you don't like them is barbaric, so having police to combat such activities is an Enforcement.
Civilisation demands that you contribute to it, in the form of a TAX. This is also an Enforcement. Not a Choice or a Right.
I see little point in the above video. Ok so America is not the wild west anymore, where you could shoot a man and not pay tax, as a right and a choice. Times have changed.
only the Enforcement of idenity is up for grabs. I'm sure if it was offered as a Choice many people would want it as thier Right, as services changed.
as an animal of this planet i find, that forcing people to carry a card completely imorral, and is a sign that some people have the power to force other peoples actions without their consent, not through society but through law.
on the other hand you choose to use the monetary system you choose to pay tax
good points hawken, allthough the thought of a chip under the skin as ID is discomforting esspecially if people have a choice or only certain people need to have it, welcome to segregation.
In the EU you need ID for various things that you buy( like you said, house, carrent) and in germany fa. you need to have ID on you all of the time.
It is a weird video but if this law exists it could be used to put the goverment under pressure (power to the people!!! weeeeeee) but that would be very chaotic and very little people would be mature enough imho to say that they stop paying tax if the gov. is ... beeing a jackass, wich leads us to the problem what a jackass is
good point but in most places you can get away with it :-) trust me :-) also its more of a society thing than a gover-mental although there are laws against indecent exposure in the UK they are usually enforced by society rather than the police
You guys may remember a thread a few months ago where I said inflation was on the way because of the new government debt? Every time the money supply is inflated, your dollars are worth less. This is another invisible tax.
Add to that property tax, estate taxes, and income taxes and you have a system where the normal working man is getting fucked.
What do you get in return? Marines over in some country I don't give a shit about killing women and children. A shity, 1850's tech school system. The FDA; an organization that is supposed to keep you safe from dangerous drugs but cant. FEMA; an organization that is supposed to help prevent losses due to disaster, but cant. Etc, etc.
Even things like the highway system that seem like a good thing will probably be seen as a bad idea by future generations. Why? The original capital investment in the road system created a situation where it made sense to own a car. This created urban sprawl, a dependence on foriegn oil and air quality issues (and we may never know about things like global warming).
I do think that governments can make good decision, but I think our's rarely does.
All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Solidarity brother.
r.
Ben Franklin once said
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Still rings true to this day,i remember all the fear mongering after 9/11 by the press and politicians to scare people into signing away their liberty little by little,whats really sad is that many Americans are ignorant to this.
I always found it ironic and funny that so many people said that the terrorist were out to destroy our freedoms, surprise terroists!! how can you take our freedoms when we are already destroying them ourselves.
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hey, guess what, in ben franklins day you couldn't use a suitcase to blow up an entire building.
i can't believe how everyone on the internet shouts, "THE END IS NIGH! PREPARE YOURSELVES, FOR THE FLAMES OF ETERNAL DAMNATION ARE UPON US!!! REPENT!" everytime they hear some account of the government 'spying' on us. i couldn't care less if the government wanted to know why i just ordered 800lbs of fertilizer if it saved even one innocent life. i know that if the government didn't do shit to protect us, and we actually did have rampant terrorism because they couldn't monitor us, everyone would start bitching about how "the government is doing nothing to save us!", followed by some ridiculous philosophical statement that has been used a million times over like "the government should exist for its people, the people shouldnt exist for the government."
seriously, it's 2006. do you know how easy it would be to use commonly found items to kill lots of innocent people? sure, the constitution is what we based our country on, but i don't ride a horse to work in the morning, and i don't shit in an outhouse. things change, and so the government has to evolve to protect us.
Banning unhealthy substances that have no positive values would be an easy way to save lives, as would banning all firearms and raiding all homes to make sure none remain. As would banning individual transportation in favour of public transportation. As would banning everything that could create violent tendencies (entertainment and especially news on unhappy subjects). I'm pretty sure we'd all live longer in the scenario described in Fahrenheit 451 (minus the war).
You are more likely to get killed crossing the road than by a terrorist. The terrorism card is easy to play.
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Tell that to all the people who died in 9/11. If the government wasn't doing their job, terrorism COULD become a problem.
Banning unhealthy substances that have no positive values would be an easy way to save lives, as would banning all firearms and raiding all homes to make sure none remain. As would banning individual transportation in favour of public transportation. As would banning everything that could create violent tendencies (entertainment and especially news on unhappy subjects). I'm pretty sure we'd all live longer in the scenario described in Fahrenheit 451 (minus the war).
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Ah yes! I see! You're comparing ammonium nitrate bombs that can blow up thousands of people to someone willingly buying cigarettes! I see the correlation!
r.
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You guys are silly. Without government, there is no civilization.
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Very high end civilization would not need a goverment, if everyone knows and does what they are supposed to do without asking then you would not need anyone to point the finger thus the goverment would be useless.
Ofcourse its very utopic but still theoretically possible.
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And if a frong had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass a' hoppin'. But here on planet Earth, etc etc...
Yes. We all know governnment = civilization. Anywhere you find a government you also find civilization! Just look at Africa for proof. In fact, I don't see how anyone could ever get anything done without thugs extracting protection money from us.
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Hi! Your straw man just called. He'd really like it if you just addressed the things that other people actually say rather than propping him up so you can pierce him with that razor-sharp wit of yours.
terrorism is only a problem because the government insists on blowing up their shit and interfering in their trade and peace talks and whatnot.
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Your contribution to this thread is only a problem because you are attempting to dismiss a very complicated circumstance with a very simplistic explanation. Terrorism happens in many forms around the world, every day, including places where global superpowers have little presence. It's just one method of warfare, and people have been making war with each other since the dawn of time.
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Banning unhealthy substances that have no positive values would be an easy way to save lives, as would banning all firearms and raiding all homes to make sure none remain. As would banning individual transportation in favour of public transportation. As would banning everything that could create violent tendencies (entertainment and especially news on unhappy subjects). I'm pretty sure we'd all live longer in the scenario described in Fahrenheit 451 (minus the war).
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Ah yes! I see! You're comparing ammonium nitrate bombs that can blow up thousands of people to someone willingly buying cigarettes! I see the correlation!
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You know how many people in the US die each year of smoking? You know how many people in the US die every year of terrorism? Why do you think terrorism warrants severe restrictions on freedom while selling poison with addictive qualities doesn't?
Also, the plans for the atacks on the WTC were known to the intelligence agencies of the US but they decided that noone would seriously try that. They get a lot of false positives so they have to sort out what makes sense to pursue and what doesn't. Even with all the new anti-terror laws 9/11 would have happened because these terrorists didn't do anything illegal or suspicious up until they took the plane.
Verm: Government helps to create order. Civiliztion requires order to exist, but I don't think government is the only way to achieve that order. It depends a lot on how you define a government.
I don't really have a problem with the idea of government. I just think that technology should be used to solve as many problems with the government as possible.
In a very real sense, until there is a world government, we do live in an anarchy. I don't vote. My expected utility is too low. If I have any serious problems with the US government I'll move to a place a like better. In fact, people have done that exact thing all the time in the past. It is this movement of highly skilled and intelligent people that is the real backbone of an economy. As a smart and skilled person, the worst thing you can do to the US government is to move away. They are parasitic in nature, and without a host they starve. In the same way, you can help a govenrment that you like or think are running things well.
Unless you were killed by a terrorist driving a car whilst crossing the road. That would just confuse the stats people
it is one method of warfare, but we certaintly arent helping things by giving assloads of weapons and money to their number one enemy israel.
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It's an excuse. Israel isn't doing jack shit to the people of Iran or Arghanistan or Syria or any other middle eastern nation that isn't the remnant of Palestine. The 'president' of Iran wants to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth because they're not Muslim, no more and no less.
Verm: Government helps to create order. Civiliztion requires order to exist, but I don't think government is the only way to achieve that order. It depends a lot on how you define a government.
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There are no examples in history of civilization developing without some sort of government. And by government, I mean a group of people with the authority to impose order on the whole populace (be it a despotic tyrant or an enlightened republic). Fundamentally, some system of law is needed to allow for society to function and that's effectively what governments do.
Eeen putting obvious things like the police and armies aside, the things that keep citizens from killing each other, government-sanctioned order is critical just to make sure things happen. Imagine if each state in America was required to develop its own freeway system. Maybe Ohio wants to do something different from Indiana, and develops roads insufficient to handle freight trucking. Maybe Pennsylvanians lack the resources or coordination to create interstates at all, and freight trucks can't even travel from Pittsburgh to Philly. That would be bad, yeah? Fortunately, the federal government uses tax dollars to create a uniform system of highways that serve each state (and thus each taxpayer) equally.
Yes but the number of terrorist attacks wasn't exactly huge before laws like the Patriot Act were introduced. These anti-terror laws created severe restrictions on freedom and I don't think those were necessary at all to prevent terrorist strikes. Things like mandatory ID have their uses but they don't do ANYTHING to prevent terrorism because a terrorist will have a valid ID on him.
Also, the plans for the atacks on the WTC were known to the intelligence agencies of the US but they decided that noone would seriously try that. They get a lot of false positives so they have to sort out what makes sense to pursue and what doesn't. Even with all the new anti-terror laws 9/11 would have happened because these terrorists didn't do anything illegal or suspicious up until they took the plane.
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Technically, a conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime. And terrorist attacks were still very common in European and middle eastern countries pre-9/11 but taking down the WTC sort of "rammed it home" in the US.
Oh noes, terrorist stole my freedom!
No one is implanting a tag on me. That's the breaking point.
One thing that bothers me. The 22nd Amendment prevents a president from seeking a 3rd term. But who cares about the constitution, right? It's just a goddamn piece of paper. And we are at war...with...something...possibly forever. All we need is another tragic event just before the next election. But that's unpossible.
Are there any organized efforts to overthrow the current adminstration? I'd like to lend a hand.
oh and is it still considered fear mongering if you use words like 'fascist government' and 'taking away your freedoms' instead of terrorists and WMDs?
Sonic, I can't believe how naive you're being. In fact, you're being more than just naive, you're being willfully ignorant.
The spying controversy isn't just about the government spying on American citizens. I expect the NSA and CIA to spy on people; they wouldn't be doing their jobs otherwise. The controversy stems from the fact that they're doing it WITHOUT WARRANTS. This is setting a dangerous precedent. Even if this lack of oversight isn't being abused right now (which I find hard to believe), there's the potential for future administrations to take advantage of this precedent and abuse it. Before they started conducting WARRENTLESS domestic surveillance, the court they went through to get a warrant was the FISA court. Since the inception of the court less than 30 years ago, they have rejected a whopping 4 out of more than 18,000 warrant applications. That's literally a 99.9% rate of approval, so they're essentially a "rubber stamp" court. Not only that, but they could get the warrant retroactively (meaning they could start conducting surveillance before getting a warrant). So why is the Bush administration sidestepping this process? Is terrorism such a threat that they need to undermine the very foundation of our country... our system of checks and balances, judicial oversight, our Bill of Rights? I don't think so.
You also don't seem to understand how terrorism works. Terrorism isn't about defeating a country by killing all of the citizens of that country, it's about paralyzing a population with terror. The number of people that have been killed by terrorism on American soil in the last 20 years is a pretty small number. You have a slightly higher chance of winning the lottery than being killed by a terrorist. But here's how terrorism is effective: for an attack that cost Al Qaeda about $500,000 in total, we've spent more than $500,000,000,000 in response; we've made many significant changes to how our government works; we've enacted new laws that possibly jeopardize our civil liberties; we've generated a huge amount of animosity towards our country, not only in hostile nations, but also in countries that we consider allies.
Osama bin Laden has said his plan is to bleed America to the point of bankruptcy, which is the same tactic he and the mujahedeen fighters used to defeat the USSR in the Soviet-Afghan war (when he was working for the CIA). They would do stuff like write "Al Qaeda" on a flag and stick it in the middle of nowhere. When the Soviets got word, they would move troops and equipment and investigate the area. They would waste tens of thousands of dollars on these pointless exercises, for what cost Al Qaeda a stick and a rag. And the Bush administration is making it easy on Al Qaeda; he started a dubious war in a whole 'nother country and is shoveling out hundreds of billions of dollars to military contractors. Al Qaeda doesn't even have to do anything.
Right now, to sit back and watch the righteous indignation
r.