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  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    No, I'm pretty sure people have been bashing the big company since it was small. The reason that company became so large was because of its shady business strategies, not listening to the users of their product or focusing on innovation, intuitive design, and cultural changes.

    But some people think Paint, Movie Maker, Explorer, Sound Recorder, Netmeeting, MSN Gaming Zone, and FrontPage are all useful and amazing apps that should stay just the way they have always been. Good luck if you want video/audio editing with export options, text editors with sytax highlighting, affordable programming tools, pre-installed webbrowser with support for the latest web standards, etc. Hotmail would not have improved without Google's influence.

    Without competition, companies like Microsoft, Adobe, and Discreet stop listening, prices climb, and technology becomes more frustrating.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    To be fair, if MS tried to add decent versions of those programs to Windows now they'd have to take them out because of antitrust issues.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    microsoft really don't care if windows is good or not, they just wanted ultimate market share. This was the plan from the start (see Pirates of Silicon Valley) and it's not really changed, it will run on any old bucket-o-bits, and they certainly achieved thier goal.

    Where as Apple's view is that they want to make a good operating system. This was the plan from the start.

    The message of the video on the first post to this thread is that Bill has copied Steve (badly) for a SECOND time.

    I'm not a microsoft basher because they are big. I have Windows on my mac. I bash them because they don't give a toss about making good, intelligent, useable software.
  • sonic
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    sonic polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    But some people think Paint, Movie Maker, Explorer, Sound Recorder, Netmeeting, MSN Gaming Zone, and FrontPage are all useful and amazing apps that should stay just the way they have always been. Good luck if you want video/audio editing with export options, text editors with sytax highlighting, affordable programming tools, pre-installed webbrowser with support for the latest web standards, etc. Hotmail would not have improved without Google's influence.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    AHHH! People will bitch about anything! Windows is now trying to add the shit you complain it doesn't have, then you'll turn around and tell me how bloated Vista is! Nothing will satisfy you! Check out movie maker for Vista. Also, why the fuck would you need a syntax highlighting notepad in windows? If you're a programmer, you sure as fuck know how to easily find an amazing free text editor. The express versions of Visual Studio are all FREE. IE7 DOES SUPPORT ALL OF THE LATEST STANDARDS! HOTMAIL IS GOD DAMN FREE AND YOU'RE COMPLAINING!
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    I use both hotmail and gmail and must say that hotmail is very lacking compared.

    it doesn't even save attachments to sent messages.

    the arguement that it's free is unjust, because users are bombarded with advertising that hotmail makes a mint off.

    (I'm not sure how popular ie7 will be because they can't "push" it onto people operating systems during an update like they did with ie6.)

    and... taken directly from the ie7 homepage:

    [ QUOTE ]
    Q. My favorite websites don't load correctly, or don’t seem to work at all in Internet Explorer 7 Beta 2. What should I do?
    A.
    While we continue to improve Internet Explorer 7, some websites may load differently in Internet Explorer 7 Beta 2. To view a site that doesn't load correctly in Internet Explorer 7 Beta 2, you can "spoof" the website to make it appear as though you're in Internet Explorer 6 instead of Internet Explorer 7. Click here and use this tool to change your registry and allow you to view the troublesome website. Click "Run" to have the tool update your registry.

    Want to undo the workaround?
    Click here to reset your registry back to the way it was working with Internet Explorer 7 Beta 2. Click "Run" to have the tool update your registry.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    wikipedia:

    [ QUOTE ]
    Version 7 supports tabbed browsing, which has been a popular feature in competing web browsers for some time. Before beta 2, this feature couldn't be disabled. There is also a feature called "Quick Tabs", which displays a thumbnail preview of opened tabs, treating tabs like Exposé treats application windows. With this new feature, user can find, open, close, and refresh opened tabs easily.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    but

    [ QUOTE ]
    Long-awaited support for per-pixel alpha channel transparency in PNG images has been added.[6]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    yay!

    also for those of you a bit fed up with useless software on either platform, I installed xp to the dual boot on this mac with "xplite" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XPLite
  • sonic
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    sonic polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    the arguement that it's free is unjust, because users are bombarded with advertising that hotmail makes a mint off.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I wasn't saying they didn't make money off of it, the argument was that he's complaining about a free service to him that he's not forced to use at all.
  • Illusions
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    Illusions polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    AHHH! People will bitch about anything! Windows is now trying to add the shit you complain it doesn't have, then you'll turn around and tell me how bloated Vista is! Nothing will satisfy you! Check out movie maker for Vista. Also, why the fuck would you need a syntax highlighting notepad in windows? If you're a programmer, you sure as fuck know how to easily find an amazing free text editor. The express versions of Visual Studio are all FREE. IE7 DOES SUPPORT ALL OF THE LATEST STANDARDS! HOTMAIL IS GOD DAMN FREE AND YOU'RE COMPLAINING!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Or they'll say they're ripping off the Mac. But seriously though, people should stop looking at computers differently than they would other tools or devices.

    That and Mac needs to realize its ok to imitate other people. They shouldn't be afraid to make a mouse with two buttons that is ergonomically comfortable to use.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    the argument was that he's complaining about a free service to him that he's not forced to use at all.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Good thing I use Gmail for my email needs. Hotmail is simply a giant spam folder. I think it's your nap time. My arguement is Microsoft only follows the lead of others to keep the almighty dollar pouring in. And I could use a text editor with syntax highlighting for HTML and CSS editing. Why? Because other systems bundle that sort of thing so I don't have to comb the internet for shareware. Wordpad hasn't changed since when?

    [ QUOTE ]
    They shouldn't be afraid to make a mouse with two buttons that is ergonomically comfortable to use.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Buy a comfortable 2+ button mouse like most people buy for their PC's, and plug it into a Mac. The logitech mice are great. Do you criticize Microsoft for the crappy ball mouse that comes bundled with store bought PC's?
  • thnom
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    thnom polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    microsoft really don't care if windows is good or not, they just wanted ultimate market share. This was the plan from the start (see Pirates of Silicon Valley) and it's not really changed, it will run on any old bucket-o-bits, and they certainly achieved thier goal.

    Where as Apple's view is that they want to make a good operating system. This was the plan from the start.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    By that understanding, Microsoft are winning.

    Elys unless I'm mistaken, Word doesn't come with Syntax enabled stuff in it. Wordpad is a dressed version of that. I've also never seen syntax editing in a Mac, although admittadly I've never looked for one, but I have pasted both HTML and ASP code into its SimpleText and the other one it has and neither highlighted.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    I'm not saying Mac does. I'm saying Microsoft doesn't. And today when everyone and their mother has a fancy website, or a small business in need of one, where is it? It's something simple I've wanted for 6 years now, since I first used Windows. That's not innovation. So what makes a great Operating System, and what justifies the price tag?
  • sonic
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    sonic polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    They shouldn't be afraid to make a mouse with two buttons that is ergonomically comfortable to use.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Buy a comfortable 2+ button mouse like most people buy for their PC's, and plug it into a Mac. The logitech mice are great. Do you criticize Microsoft for the crappy ball mouse that comes bundled with store bought PC's?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So by your standards, Windows needs to come with nonessential software so that developers don't need to scour the internet for shareware, but it's ok for Macs to have a shitty mouse that requires me to spend at least 20 bucks to get non-gimped functionality?
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    The Mac mouse is functional. Perhaps you haven't used it. If you're switching to a Mac, chances are you already have a feature rich Optical mouse. I never see the mouse arguement as valid. It's an option they provide. And I don't see text highlighting as nonessential. Perhaps you overlooked the part where I said webpages, not C++ applications. You've seen the internet, right?
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Sonic: He's an argumentative sod who's not gonna be convinced no matter how rational your arguments, probably best to just drop it smile.gif
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    I figured I'd prove his thought provoking arguement that "People will bitch about anything!", and let him assume what I'll do next. Thanks for contributing.
  • thnom
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    thnom polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    I'm not saying Mac does. I'm saying Microsoft doesn't. And today when everyone and their mother has a fancy website, or a small business in need of one, where is it? It's something simple I've wanted for 6 years now, since I first used Windows. That's not innovation. So what makes a great Operating System, and what justifies the price tag?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Wtf are you talking about. For one, why is one "microsoft" and the other "mac". Use the name of the OS or the actual developer, not mix and match - it makes you look like a microsoft hater (which is probably true).

    If Apple doesn't have one either why is it not okay for Windows to have yet mac is fine? Please, you do seem argumentative but your arguements are weak. The Mac mouse may be functional but its certainly not wanted. I'd rather have a normal mouse than syntax-enabled shit, especially when free editors are available such as 'conTEXT'.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    I would say mac and PC, but PC's have many other OS's like Linux with many great things to offer, which is what this discussion is about. Microsoft offering too little too late and cashing in.

    Forget it, I'm not repeating myself anymore.
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    Bingo!

    The point being that all these features are being wheeled out as new and innovative when they are clearly not. Apple didn't invent them all either - several were on the HP-UNIX GUI I used 12 years ago, and on the Amiga I had 15 years ago.

    As for macs, I love them. Not because it's all I have and want a PC. I got rid of my PC and kept the mac because for MY usage it's a superior system.
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    Exactly Rick, it's apples and oranges. Not everyone likes them, regardless of what "features" either one may have.

    Fruits.
  • snemmy
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    snemmy polycounter lvl 18
    i really like my iBook and would probably make the switch completely.. but my pc gets 99% of the use because of the games and applications i have on it. if i wasnt a gamer or didnt make game art then a Mac would be a great way to go.

    pfft... people dont want to pay $20 for an optical mouse for a new mac but they will spend out the ass for that new video card for their pc. tongue.gif
  • thnom
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    thnom polycounter lvl 18
    Wasn't gamer or make game art? So if you used your computer for writing stuff in Word? I'm just kidding.

    I aren't bashing Macs, I just can't understand any of elys' points but its okay, I never do really. You can kinda see why people love Macs - the same way you can see the way people love iPods, but not for me.
  • ElysiumGX
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    ElysiumGX polycounter lvl 18
    To be fair, I can't understand the big hype about iPods when we have devices called Portable MP3 Players that cost much less. How's that, thnom?
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 18
    well the thing is that apple is selling a lifestyle along with their products ..

    i think we can agree that modern industrial design comes hand in hand with technology in apple products. they put a lot of effort into creating products that would be mistaken for home decor... which is a good thing because forms should follow function but it doesnt mean that design has to suffer.

    on the other hand, it's like fasion and ipod are very "in".. You either have an ipod or you dont, noone even asks if you have an mp3 player anymore.

    Merceds Benz charges crazy premium for their auto's yet you can find a less expensive japanese and even euro alternative that would be almost as well equipped and as well built and maybe even a better overall. But one thing that Toyota, Honda or even BMW cant do is give you that famous MB badge that says "i am living the gangster life"

    that's not to say taht apple has got everything right, in the pursuit of "popular design" functionality suffers, i own a powerbookg4 and bought a might mouse to accompany it, and it far from great... It looks great, but when it comes to actually using it it falls short because they "drew" it first and then engineered it to fit the artist's sketch ... One could argue that it is very well built, but for $85 CND i hoped it could actually perform well.

    for my purposes, a pc suits me better and that's why i use most of the time for game art. But i have to agree that apple's OS's is quite a few steps ahead of XP and not too far away from what Vista plans to offer.. Unfortunately it's also overly stylish with all the kinds of bells and whistle's that are eye catching at first but realistically completely useless and non-functional.. So for my purposes i would still have to go with windows.

    Pixar uses apple, is it a marketing scheme ? or are they really finding it to be better hardware/software ? i would like to think it's the latter... But there always be people who buy BMW's and always be people who buy Benz's and they both will swear by them.
  • hawken
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    hawken polycounter lvl 19
    [ QUOTE ]
    Unfortunately it's also overly stylish with all the kinds of bells and whistle's that are eye catching at first but realistically completely useless and non-functional.. So for my purposes i would still have to go with windows.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    which ones?

    expose I use all the time, other things like dock animations run smoothly all the time don't really affect the computers performance (not that I shrink to dock anyway... apple H is your friend). Widgets I use very rarely but looks nice, doesn't affect performance to greatly (Unlike confabulator which eats memory)

    I think most bad experiences of using a mac are born from 1 or 2 time users who were like "WTF is this junk? Where's my startbar??" - and indeed, I was one of those users. I was totally lost on a mac not knowing where anything was. But that was my problem, I was so used to the way windows ran that I couldn't grasp macs (rather simple) usability concepts.

    the mouse arguement in this thread is utterly retarded. (any usb mouse will work, just like a pc) besides - having a rightclick button on the keyboard is actually handy sometimes, I only have me wacom. (no mouse!!)
  • sonic
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    sonic polycounter lvl 18
    hawken : like the fancy shortcut bar at the bottom that enlarges when you mouse over it. defeated by one thing: a desktop icon.
  • Fuse
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    Fuse polycounter lvl 18
    hawken you took my post completely the wrong way ..

    let me clarify that certain perks of OS are kind of meaningless to me personally ... you neednt label me as a newbie Mac user, i have worked on both systems extensively doing art/design ..

    i wasnt bashing apple .. i do think their interface is more accesible and more eye pleasing... features like expose+hotcorners are ingenius and something microsoft is only now incorporating in their OS ..

    i still feel a little more at home with a pc just because i do spend more time in that OS .. all of the familiar software works on pc well and accomodates my needs.. i do wish xp had expose frown.gif

    i am not certain what my point is anymore .. i think i am a little tired
  • Rick Stirling
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    Rick Stirling polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    hawken : like the fancy shortcut bar at the bottom that enlarges when you mouse over it. defeated by one thing: a desktop icon.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Afraid not - it's quicker and easier to flick the mouse to the bottom of the screen and click on an icon than it is to hide all and find the icon on the desktop. And can you guess what? SHOCK! YOu can have desktop icons if you want.

    Expose and the dock are simply more intuitive ways of working. I had to install a dock on my PC. I tried to get a good expose clone, but they just dont work. When you've used them they become so obvious that you don't want to be without them.
  • Mister Sentient
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    Mister Sentient polycounter lvl 18
    Could someone explain to me what this expose thing is?
  • Rick Stirling
  • Mister Sentient
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    Mister Sentient polycounter lvl 18
    Ah. Thanks, Rick.
  • KDR_11k
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    KDR_11k polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Afraid not - it's quicker and easier to flick the mouse to the bottom of the screen and click on an icon than it is to hide all and find the icon on the desktop. And can you guess what? SHOCK! YOu can have desktop icons if you want.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I've been doing that in Windows since IE 4 came out and introduced the quickstart bars to the OS. Though I have the task bar at the left side of the screen these days, not the bottom.
  • snap.crackle.pop
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    snap.crackle.pop polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]



    Early versions of the macOS copied a lot of ideas from Windows as well, so there's not much reason to pound MS over Vista's resemblence to OSX.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    You must be joking, Windows copied everything from Mac, Windows plagiarized the whole "window" concept from start to finish.

    Do you realise what DOS was, compared to windows ?
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    [ QUOTE ]
    Afraid not - it's quicker and easier to flick the mouse to the bottom of the screen and click on an icon than it is to hide all and find the icon on the desktop.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yep Rick, it's called the Quick Launch bar in Windows, I use it all the time smile.gif
  • Illusions
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    Illusions polycounter lvl 18
    What does it matter if Windows copied Mac or Mac copied Windows? Would you prefer that all screwdrivers had a differently shaped head so they weren't copying one another, or every product you dealt with operated and looked differently. Or do you prefer your tools to work the way you expect them to, and in the best, standardized way possible?
  • Marine
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    Marine polycounter lvl 19
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Afraid not - it's quicker and easier to flick the mouse to the bottom of the screen and click on an icon than it is to hide all and find the icon on the desktop.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yep Rick, it's called the Quick Launch bar in Windows, I use it all the time smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    and you can add your desktop to the taskbar as a quick launch bar
  • MoP
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    MoP polycounter lvl 18
    ...and Illusions raises a most excellent point.
  • Joshua Stubbles
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    Joshua Stubbles polycounter lvl 19
    Well yeah, Illusions is spot-on. It's just our inner fanboy-izms that spark these arguments smile.gif

    As for Vista, I finally installed it last night. I like it! My only concern is that the entire shell is rendered like a DirectX game. While it certainly makes things pretty and fast, I'm worried about it. What happens if you install a non-WHQL certified driver? Will that kill windows? I hope not. I use a lot of beta drivers for my Nvidia card. Being forced to use only WHQL drivers would be a serious spark up my arse.
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