don't worry, the issues are getting sorted out. right now you get the new front page if you go to polycount.com, but you get the blank "web shell" page if you put in the www.
My honest opinion, cos I know you'd expect nothing less.
It's nice to see a CSS system, but currently the look is dreadful. I thought it was an April fools joke that had been rediscovered. Harsh, and there is nothing humble about my opinions.
It's nice to have something new, but I'll agree with Rick.
I'm sure some of our more 'designy' people would be willing to help out. I'd volunteer. Though, I'd prefer to see some of the more skilled folks step up.
Ack, my bookmarks led to planetquake.com/polycount all the time... I'm glad, one look at that new design makes my eyes scream. Black font on dark green background? WTF?
While I'll agree that aesthetically it needs a little work, the basic layout and functional design is a definite improvement. Just getting rid of a lot of the old clutter and putting the key site features front and center is good good.
(the following words do not reflect any negativity)
The frontpage is a good placeholder. I liked the design of the original polycount page, but this is still in its infancy. I would like to see thumbnails at the top, like on cgtalk with some highlights from the forums or a model someone has submitted.
I agree about the art style, but again its WIP. Maybe a competition to come out with a new PC logo. we have enough artists on here that can help with the graphics. If you need a photoshop drone, i'm always willing to help.
Maybe get your functionality in place then turn the final fluffy layout art into a competition? I'm sure a lot of design oriented peeps would want to take a crack at pc. Overall i'd have to agree with Rick, it's a bit underdone and doesn't possess the mouthwatering outer shell. The evil green smiley is a great logo btw, stick with it!
I havnt really used the frontpage for a long time, but the imidiate thing that strikes me is the menu buttons dont read very well... at first glance they look like text related to the pictures above so even tho things are now nice and simple it dosnt read very well.
Im sure the ideas for this new layout were great, its allways really hard getting website designs actually to work well.
Some more of the nice pics of the great work people do in the pimping section would bring it to life more.
The old one was really, really busy.
I like the new look, maybe it just needs a little tweaking. The upper right has alot of empty real estate that some more pics could balance out. Maybe optimize for 1024 and take out a bit of the empty space above the title? I doubt most people coming to Polycount have 800 res. Just my $0.02
One thing that's important to note is that actual game model submissions are like zilch, and have been for a long time (years). Look around: you guys are all doing models just to do models, not for specific importing into D3, HL2, etc. No-one's downloading new player models for Q3 and UT2004 like they did in those games' heyday, and those games didn't have a heyday like Q1 and Q2 did. And it's not getting easier to get models into D3/HL2/UE3, etc., it's getting harder to both build a model and import it into a game.
We took the emphasis on the front page off of the models and onto the POTDs and the news posts, most of which link directly to the boards. That's because the discussion on the boards is where all the action really is. The front page should almost be a summary of all the cool things you guys are doing.
When model submission comes back up, we've been thinking about doing more generalized model reviews instead of game-specific things. As with the Dominance War contest, we'd provide standard specs for sizes, screenshots, poses, maybe provide standard rigs and skeletons so you can see how your model would work in a game, but no longer make it game-specific.
Polycount isn't Q2PMP any more, and it's been dragging around that baggage for way too long. Polycount is a game artists community, and it needs to focus not on a specific game, but on the art itself. You guys deserve more than to be tied to a specific game's art restrictions because that's the only place you can easily see your model do something.
That's why the front page looks "spartan." And you're welcome to disagree. But before you go nuts with putting Q2 and UT game models front and center, think about the community as a whole. It's not about a specific game. It's about the art of games.
[ QUOTE ]
One thing that's important to note is that actual game model submissions are like zilch, and have been for a long time (years).
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really.
[ QUOTE ]
Polycount isn't Q2PMP any more, and it's been dragging around that baggage for way too long. Polycount is a game artists community, and it needs to focus not on a specific game, but on the art itself.
[/ QUOTE ]
What else is there? All I know of that's still alive in such areas is Skincity and that's restricted to ut/ut2k3/2k4.
Right. You guys are making models for yourselves, you're making models to show off what you can do. People outside of Polycount aren't downloading your just-finished Q3 model. If it were easier to import models into D3/HL2/etc., you'd probably be doing a model for that, but it took the Dominance War contest to get lots of people working on normal map projects at the same time.
It's great that you're doing the work, but art tests for game companies don't require models in Q3 format. One of the reasons it sometimes takes forever for a model to get reviewed is that they come in so infrequently we uninstall the games in between! Q3 is over six years old! Even UT2004 models are looking seriously dated these days. The tech is just too old to use in serious portfolios, and you're not helping your skills any by limiting your output to the only game engines you can easily get your model into.
Most game-specific model development focuses around the UDN-style communities that game companies are now running on their own. As a general art community, and not a game-specific one, we felt it was time to actually acknowledge that.
If no-one is going to use and play as your model, and if you're just making it to get reviews and critiques, why limit yourself to an ancient game? Can't Polycount as a site and a community help you develop your skills and talents better by providing you a review of your model, that you made as if it were going in a game, without making you actually put it in a game?
By providing "standard" game-esque polycount, texture size, format and rigging restrictions, you're still doing the same work, but now your model can be more evenly compared to other works, you don't need to fight with an engine just to get it reviewed, and we can review more models better and faster using standard tools.
If the case is about engine age (which i highly disagree with, as low-spec skills is still necessary for portable art development), then what about Quake 4? All that work on the player model support in the latest patch wasn't done for nothing...
Dropping the whole game ppm deal which made the site get hosted in the first place, to be a "cgsociety-too" isn't really all that appealing for me at least
Yeah it's sadly very true. However as an archive polycount is useful right? I just got Q3 running on this mac and would love to get some models for it.
I think I expressed some time ago in a conversation with Jack that polycount could almost become a sort of museum for playermodels, because things really do dissapear off the net rather rapidly (QWTF maps for example).
Polycount may carry the baggage of PPM's but it's also it's indentity too. Without that it's just another faceless artboard, surely?
At the end of the day polycount can provide tips and examples for new and budding artists to make player models, even if they don't go into games. So maybe a new way of things could be approached; people can submit player models but they don't have to be for a game as such, just a gallery of characters, that have peer reviews. (err, as Vito said above! )
[ QUOTE ]
So maybe a new way of things could be approached; people can submit player models but they don't have to be for a game as such, just a gallery of characters, that have peer reviews.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's pretty much what we're thinking about. The old model database won't go away, and Cheapy is right that the "old ways" of making player models are still important for cell phones, PDAs and portable consoles.
But even if building a Q3A model does help you learn the limitations of that platform, it's not the "Q3A" part that does it: it's the polygon restrictions, the format restrictions, the rigging restrictions, the texture size restrictions. Importing it into Q3A doesn't help you import it into a PSP game; the only part that's the same is the modeling restrictions themselves.
That's why we're NOT doing away with model submissions, and we're NOT doing away with the model DB. We're just THINKING about changing the way we're doing model submissions and reviews in the future.
Creativity is borne from restrictions, so we're thinking about a set of "standard" model restrictions that you could build your models against, giving you the same experience and challenge without forcing you to fight with a game engine unless you want to. Reviews will happen based on the restrictions, not based on whether you imported it into a game correctly and whether we can find our original CDs.
PPMs aren't terribly popular to the general public these days. Q4 is supporting them in a patch released six months after the game came out, five months after it dropped off of NPD's top PC Games sales list.
But Polycount is and will continue to be a serious resource for game artists. That means we need to be able to support future artists, too, not just Q2PMPs. And that's why the model list isn't on the front page of the site any more.
I'm with Vito on this - the tiem of PPMs is effectively dead. Before a model and texture were sepearete things, and now they are pretty much one and the same.
Keeping the achive is a great idea, but evolving into a LPM, MPM and HPM resource would be better. The LPM could be compared to Qauke 1 specs etc.
THe old instructions and tutorials aren't as relevant -I'm sure they will just be moved to a less obtrusive place than the front page.
hawken - I'm digging on your version The white block text is superb. If I may suggest a few things:
The bright green inside the divs is very strong - perhaps push it closer to the green used in the messageboard?
I think the POTD SHOULD be at the top, but it looks nice at the side. Perhaps then, POTD at the top, and forum highlights down the side? That would tie in the latest community stuff directy to the front page. Perhaps POTD and forum highlights are the same thing, so after being at the top it drifts down?
The Recent Models, News and POTD headlines - have you tried them inside the Divs? they just seem a little isolated and detached from their content. It's obvious what they represent of course, but they do just seem like their children have cast them adrift.
PPMs aren't hot anymore. Everyone can agree on that.
I think it's very bold and responsible of you guys to change the website to reflect the communities needs. Polycount should evolve, even if it's just a little bit
As for the new website design, i think it could use some work. i think the large head is strange. So is the large text.
I love the idea that we could have a HUGE comprehensive gallery of finished models on polycount that people could just browse through. Maybe have a strict selection process so that only good models get in the gallery, so it becomes kind of a goal to become good enough to get placed in the gallery. However, I wouldnt want it to be too strict, because I still want a huge gallery.
It would be interesting if we could have it so mod teams could just browse through all the models on the site and then, if they could use anything, they could message the artist and see if it'd be alright to use in their mod. Could become a great mod resource, especially if we included props as well as characters.
I`d like to see polycount shift focus from being a website for people who want to download models, to a website aimed at the creators of game-art.
I wouldn`t like to see all those old models lost though, or even buried deep. The museum-idea sounds great to me!
Also, how about having a wiki featured prominently on the frontpage? we could merge Rick`s stuff in there if he likes the idea, and it could be a great source of information, in a slightly better format than a forum. We could even host everyone`s tutorials in one central spot, where it wont be as likely to dissappear due to hosting problems or whatever.
I also like hawken`s suggestion a lot more than the one we`ve got up there now, but there`s no need for me to repeat the criticism, as all of my points have been raised by others.
it`s good to see some new life being breathed into the frontpage though, great work guys!
Sure, games get old. But players don't seem to follow, most people still play freaking Counterstrike.
Playermodels would be popular if games supported them properly and completely client-side (so you could actually use them online, like in Half-Life). I have no doubts that if any new MP game did that out of the box, PPMs would be just as popular as they were "back in the day". People still like to play as cool or beloved characters, game developers seem to care a lot less.
The real reason that PPM's are not as popular is because it's become a royal PITA to make them for modern game engines.
Q3A and UT2k4 will be the last games where the Average Joe could easily port a model.
As far as restrictions, as an aside, at least with regards to actual polycounts, that is more of a limitation of CPU and GPU than game engine. You can drop a 5000 poly model into Q3A with no problem, and it will run happily. The original models for those older games don't reflect the engine as much as they reflect the horsepower of gaming computers at the time of their release.
Of course normal maps, etc, are a different story, but multiplayer gamers don't give a fuck about that shit. They just want it to look reasonably good and play fast. That's why Q3 and UT2k4 are vastly more popular than Q4.
Q3A and UT2k4 will be the last games where the Average Joe could easily port a model.
Nonsense. Q4 is no more complicated than Q3. Of course a model without a normalmap isn't going to look as good as the built-in models but most models that were simply ported don't look comparable to the built-in models. Or do you mean something else with "porting"?
Due to cheaters, PPM are now (or better since Q3) at the same point as custom maps have always been. Only if the server has them installed it will work.
Coston PPMs have always been a fun gimmick for FFA/DM games prior to Quake3, but with the pure server concept (to prevent cheaters to use hacked up custom PPMs) it basicly killed off any fun of custom PPMs since noone was useing them, and you couldn't even use them client-side only.
Sure Q3 still had a lot of PPMs, but that was mostly due to the momentum of the community and the ease of making them... but quite soon many people realized that is just doesn't make sense to make custon PPMs if you can't use them other that on private LANs and against bots.
But I still prefer less cheaters over custom PPMs.
[ QUOTE ]
Playermodels would be popular if games supported them properly and completely client-side (so you could actually use them online, like in Half-Life). I have no doubts that if any new MP game did that out of the box, PPMs would be just as popular as they were "back in the day". People still like to play as cool or beloved characters, game developers seem to care a lot less.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but this isn't going to happen. And btw, it isn't about game developers caring less. It's about the pressure that dev. teams are under to ship. Customization is hardly going to be no.1 on their feature list is it? But it's sure as hell going to be no.1 on the cut list.
I really don't know why people are struggling so hard to accept the simple fact that Polycount is not the Q2pmp anymore. As Vito has explained many times over in this thread, ppm's simply are not the main focus of this site any longer. The VAST majority of this community hasn't made a PPM in years. General game Art creation is the main focus. Change is a natural part of life. Learn to accept and embrace it!
Replies
http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/cottages/socialnemesis/stuff/weird_polycount.jpg
Nice! Can't wait to see the rest of the new stuff up and running
Not even sure who to contact about that.
I like the big face down the side though...
My honest opinion, cos I know you'd expect nothing less.
It's nice to see a CSS system, but currently the look is dreadful. I thought it was an April fools joke that had been rediscovered. Harsh, and there is nothing humble about my opinions.
this new design actually reminds me slightly of q2pmp
I'm sure some of our more 'designy' people would be willing to help out. I'd volunteer. Though, I'd prefer to see some of the more skilled folks step up.
http://www.thinkvitamin.com/features/design/how-crap-is-your-site-design
The only other thing I can think of is a better way to search for Models in the database.
Scott
I don't like this new one *at all*. No offense, but it looks like it was made in Netscape composer or something.
For starters, giant text is ugly.
It looks like a mod webpage. It's horrendous.
Kudos to CSS, Kudos to a streamlined design, but the design is a disgrace.
Thanks Rogue13 and Vito for all the effort, it's appreciated.
The frontpage is a good placeholder. I liked the design of the original polycount page, but this is still in its infancy. I would like to see thumbnails at the top, like on cgtalk with some highlights from the forums or a model someone has submitted.
I agree about the art style, but again its WIP. Maybe a competition to come out with a new PC logo. we have enough artists on here that can help with the graphics. If you need a photoshop drone, i'm always willing to help.
The design so far isn't what clicks in as great on the first sight, but I do like the more simplistic approach.
Im sure the ideas for this new layout were great, its allways really hard getting website designs actually to work well.
Some more of the nice pics of the great work people do in the pimping section would bring it to life more.
I like the new look, maybe it just needs a little tweaking. The upper right has alot of empty real estate that some more pics could balance out. Maybe optimize for 1024 and take out a bit of the empty space above the title? I doubt most people coming to Polycount have 800 res. Just my $0.02
though a neat idea, is to have a row of game icons at the top leading to appropriate player and weapon model lists for those games
(you may have your monitor calibrated too dark, the gray is mid range on mine, then again macs do have higher gamma)
seasons:
We took the emphasis on the front page off of the models and onto the POTDs and the news posts, most of which link directly to the boards. That's because the discussion on the boards is where all the action really is. The front page should almost be a summary of all the cool things you guys are doing.
When model submission comes back up, we've been thinking about doing more generalized model reviews instead of game-specific things. As with the Dominance War contest, we'd provide standard specs for sizes, screenshots, poses, maybe provide standard rigs and skeletons so you can see how your model would work in a game, but no longer make it game-specific.
Polycount isn't Q2PMP any more, and it's been dragging around that baggage for way too long. Polycount is a game artists community, and it needs to focus not on a specific game, but on the art itself. You guys deserve more than to be tied to a specific game's art restrictions because that's the only place you can easily see your model do something.
That's why the front page looks "spartan." And you're welcome to disagree. But before you go nuts with putting Q2 and UT game models front and center, think about the community as a whole. It's not about a specific game. It's about the art of games.
One thing that's important to note is that actual game model submissions are like zilch, and have been for a long time (years).
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really.
[ QUOTE ]
Polycount isn't Q2PMP any more, and it's been dragging around that baggage for way too long. Polycount is a game artists community, and it needs to focus not on a specific game, but on the art itself.
[/ QUOTE ]
What else is there? All I know of that's still alive in such areas is Skincity and that's restricted to ut/ut2k3/2k4.
[ QUOTE ]
One thing that's important to note is that actual game model submissions are like zilch, and have been for a long time (years).
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think he meant actual 'quality' models that people are still playing.
It's great that you're doing the work, but art tests for game companies don't require models in Q3 format. One of the reasons it sometimes takes forever for a model to get reviewed is that they come in so infrequently we uninstall the games in between! Q3 is over six years old! Even UT2004 models are looking seriously dated these days. The tech is just too old to use in serious portfolios, and you're not helping your skills any by limiting your output to the only game engines you can easily get your model into.
Most game-specific model development focuses around the UDN-style communities that game companies are now running on their own. As a general art community, and not a game-specific one, we felt it was time to actually acknowledge that.
If no-one is going to use and play as your model, and if you're just making it to get reviews and critiques, why limit yourself to an ancient game? Can't Polycount as a site and a community help you develop your skills and talents better by providing you a review of your model, that you made as if it were going in a game, without making you actually put it in a game?
By providing "standard" game-esque polycount, texture size, format and rigging restrictions, you're still doing the same work, but now your model can be more evenly compared to other works, you don't need to fight with an engine just to get it reviewed, and we can review more models better and faster using standard tools.
Dropping the whole game ppm deal which made the site get hosted in the first place, to be a "cgsociety-too" isn't really all that appealing for me at least
/me agrees with vito
I think I expressed some time ago in a conversation with Jack that polycount could almost become a sort of museum for playermodels, because things really do dissapear off the net rather rapidly (QWTF maps for example).
Polycount may carry the baggage of PPM's but it's also it's indentity too. Without that it's just another faceless artboard, surely?
At the end of the day polycount can provide tips and examples for new and budding artists to make player models, even if they don't go into games. So maybe a new way of things could be approached; people can submit player models but they don't have to be for a game as such, just a gallery of characters, that have peer reviews. (err, as Vito said above!
pixel forum:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/
pixel gallery:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/
Replace the word pixel for player model
So maybe a new way of things could be approached; people can submit player models but they don't have to be for a game as such, just a gallery of characters, that have peer reviews.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's pretty much what we're thinking about. The old model database won't go away, and Cheapy is right that the "old ways" of making player models are still important for cell phones, PDAs and portable consoles.
But even if building a Q3A model does help you learn the limitations of that platform, it's not the "Q3A" part that does it: it's the polygon restrictions, the format restrictions, the rigging restrictions, the texture size restrictions. Importing it into Q3A doesn't help you import it into a PSP game; the only part that's the same is the modeling restrictions themselves.
That's why we're NOT doing away with model submissions, and we're NOT doing away with the model DB. We're just THINKING about changing the way we're doing model submissions and reviews in the future.
Creativity is borne from restrictions, so we're thinking about a set of "standard" model restrictions that you could build your models against, giving you the same experience and challenge without forcing you to fight with a game engine unless you want to. Reviews will happen based on the restrictions, not based on whether you imported it into a game correctly and whether we can find our original CDs.
PPMs aren't terribly popular to the general public these days. Q4 is supporting them in a patch released six months after the game came out, five months after it dropped off of NPD's top PC Games sales list.
But Polycount is and will continue to be a serious resource for game artists. That means we need to be able to support future artists, too, not just Q2PMPs. And that's why the model list isn't on the front page of the site any more.
Keeping the achive is a great idea, but evolving into a LPM, MPM and HPM resource would be better. The LPM could be compared to Qauke 1 specs etc.
THe old instructions and tutorials aren't as relevant -I'm sure they will just be moved to a less obtrusive place than the front page.
hawken - I'm digging on your version The white block text is superb. If I may suggest a few things:
The bright green inside the divs is very strong - perhaps push it closer to the green used in the messageboard?
I think the POTD SHOULD be at the top, but it looks nice at the side. Perhaps then, POTD at the top, and forum highlights down the side? That would tie in the latest community stuff directy to the front page. Perhaps POTD and forum highlights are the same thing, so after being at the top it drifts down?
The Recent Models, News and POTD headlines - have you tried them inside the Divs? they just seem a little isolated and detached from their content. It's obvious what they represent of course, but they do just seem like their children have cast them adrift.
I think it's very bold and responsible of you guys to change the website to reflect the communities needs. Polycount should evolve, even if it's just a little bit
As for the new website design, i think it could use some work. i think the large head is strange. So is the large text.
-R
It would be interesting if we could have it so mod teams could just browse through all the models on the site and then, if they could use anything, they could message the artist and see if it'd be alright to use in their mod. Could become a great mod resource, especially if we included props as well as characters.
I wouldn`t like to see all those old models lost though, or even buried deep. The museum-idea sounds great to me!
Also, how about having a wiki featured prominently on the frontpage? we could merge Rick`s stuff in there if he likes the idea, and it could be a great source of information, in a slightly better format than a forum. We could even host everyone`s tutorials in one central spot, where it wont be as likely to dissappear due to hosting problems or whatever.
I also like hawken`s suggestion a lot more than the one we`ve got up there now, but there`s no need for me to repeat the criticism, as all of my points have been raised by others.
it`s good to see some new life being breathed into the frontpage though, great work guys!
Playermodels would be popular if games supported them properly and completely client-side (so you could actually use them online, like in Half-Life). I have no doubts that if any new MP game did that out of the box, PPMs would be just as popular as they were "back in the day". People still like to play as cool or beloved characters, game developers seem to care a lot less.
Q3A and UT2k4 will be the last games where the Average Joe could easily port a model.
As far as restrictions, as an aside, at least with regards to actual polycounts, that is more of a limitation of CPU and GPU than game engine. You can drop a 5000 poly model into Q3A with no problem, and it will run happily. The original models for those older games don't reflect the engine as much as they reflect the horsepower of gaming computers at the time of their release.
Of course normal maps, etc, are a different story, but multiplayer gamers don't give a fuck about that shit. They just want it to look reasonably good and play fast. That's why Q3 and UT2k4 are vastly more popular than Q4.
Q3A and UT2k4 will be the last games where the Average Joe could easily port a model.
Nonsense. Q4 is no more complicated than Q3. Of course a model without a normalmap isn't going to look as good as the built-in models but most models that were simply ported don't look comparable to the built-in models. Or do you mean something else with "porting"?
Coston PPMs have always been a fun gimmick for FFA/DM games prior to Quake3, but with the pure server concept (to prevent cheaters to use hacked up custom PPMs) it basicly killed off any fun of custom PPMs since noone was useing them, and you couldn't even use them client-side only.
Sure Q3 still had a lot of PPMs, but that was mostly due to the momentum of the community and the ease of making them... but quite soon many people realized that is just doesn't make sense to make custon PPMs if you can't use them other that on private LANs and against bots.
But I still prefer less cheaters over custom PPMs.
Playermodels would be popular if games supported them properly and completely client-side (so you could actually use them online, like in Half-Life). I have no doubts that if any new MP game did that out of the box, PPMs would be just as popular as they were "back in the day". People still like to play as cool or beloved characters, game developers seem to care a lot less.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but this isn't going to happen. And btw, it isn't about game developers caring less. It's about the pressure that dev. teams are under to ship. Customization is hardly going to be no.1 on their feature list is it? But it's sure as hell going to be no.1 on the cut list.
I really don't know why people are struggling so hard to accept the simple fact that Polycount is not the Q2pmp anymore. As Vito has explained many times over in this thread, ppm's simply are not the main focus of this site any longer. The VAST majority of this community hasn't made a PPM in years. General game Art creation is the main focus. Change is a natural part of life. Learn to accept and embrace it!