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95% of illegal immigrants take thier money back over the border to spend
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I call BS on that statement. If you're going to give a statistic, back it up with a reference.
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Although I have no proof,I have many co-workers that send their money back home to Mexico or save it for years and move back.They are all legal mexican-americans btw,and recieve good salary as a cook in a chinese fast food place.From what my co-workers said,they thought it was harder for them to keep living in America than it was to move back.
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...I do think that making illegal immigration a felony, and making the faciliation of an illegal immigant a felony, are good starts in curbing this.
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So imagine that your mom is an illegal immigrant, but you are a natural born US citizen. What would you do, sell out your mom, or risk going to jail?
Setting up these no-win senarios for people is just plain dumb. Especially when we can easily prevent people from coming across the border.
I wouldn't call it a great idea to take someone who is probably a net benefit to the economy and instead house them for 40K a year in a prison that we need for real criminals (ie, people who have done something immoral).
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I do think that many immigrants do send money back home to their families, and this is just one more reason to try and create a situation where you can tax them. Lets say there is a guy that works 40 hours a week for $10 an hour. He spends $800 of the $1600 he makes tax free a month on all his expenses. This leaves him $800 to send back home. If he is taxed 30% of his income. Since his living expenses are fixed, this means he can only send $320 home now. In other words, a 30% income tax reduces his incetive to work in the US by more than half.
The illegal immigrant/Cultural encystment issue may seem like a SW USA problem only. But it's not. I lived in a small semi-rural resort area in southern Wisconsin and it had problems with the hispanic community. Along with the workforce, they brought gang (or gang wannabe) activity to an otherwise white bread and cheese town. Not the sort of thing one expects in a small town in the land of cheddar and Laverne and Shirley.
Some random non-researched ideas (and of course, most of these are potentially inflammatory):
Inflammatory Statement 1: We have no vested interest in making Mexico a better place to live unless it somehow directly benefits the citizens of the United States. Government provided foreign aid, like foreign intervention, needs to be for the purpose of improving the lives of Americans, not people living in other countries.
Inflammatory Statement 2: While I proposed it as an interesting 'what if' statement, I do not believe that the USA would benefit from annexing any portion of the Mexico. We have enough problems with entrenched, incompetent, corrupt governments *cough* Louisiana *cough* without having to acquire additional ones ... even if they include great vacation destinations. The time for annexing Mexico passed after the Mexican-American war ended in the 1830s. (BTW - Harry Turtledove's alternate history series that begins with How Few Remain speculates on the Confederate States purchasing the northernmost states of Mexico in the years after the South wins the first American Civil War, making the Confedarcy bi-coastal and precipitating the second War between the North and the South).
Inflammatory Statement 3: I think that the polyglot nature of languages will be what keeps the E.U. from ever achieving lasting unity or becoming a super power unto themselves. That's not a "from left field" statement if you read my comments below. While it's nice to take pride in being able to communicate in multiple languages, I think that embraced differences in language can exacerbate the differences in culture that can stand in the way of national unity and encourage xenophobia.
Inflammatory Statement 4: All peoples (taken as a demographic, not individuals) are inherently xenophobic. Xenophobia is cured by the familiarity and the passage of time. Xenophobia-induced bigotry requires generations to go away and only if the people are working to deal with their issues with the "not-like-me" folk around them. As anecdotal evidence, I ask you to consider the attitudes of your family through multiple generations. Think about your grandparents' attitudes towards the "not-like-us" of their world. Consider your parent's attitudes. Think about your own. If you have kids, what are their attitudes. Chances are, no one in your family significantly changed their attitudes in their lifetimes. But I'll lay good odds that with each successive generation, attitudes changed in a positive manner.
Onto arguing the topic at hand ....
Make our Predominant Language Official. Pass one of those bills that make English the official language of the US of A and all its states, counties, townships and municipalities (including the People's Republics of Berkeley, CA). Stop printing and preparing any and all government documentation that provides versions of government documents. Encourage the private sector to take this over on a non-subsidized basis. If somebody wants a tax form with instructions other than English, or a government services manual let them pay someone in the private sector for it (and pay the surchage noted below), or let volunteer human services groups (religious or secular) take up the slack and provide it free of charge. But the point is the government should not be expected to provide translations to speakers of other languages who choose to live inside our borders.
Non-English Language Surcharge Tax. Want to use ANY language other than English in any form or signage, packaging, advertising, or other commercial speech intended for sale, distribution or broadcast within the USA, then you not only HAVE to have an English translation on the package, but you also get to pay a surcharge tax or fee for the priviledge of doing so. Make it an incremental tax, so that the MORE you sell or advertise, the higher the fee you get to pay. Commercial speech is treated differently and may allow for this without affecting the constitution. ESL services for purposes other than training people to speak English would come under this surcharge.
No more subsized classrooms Stop providing FREE ESL (English as a Second Language) services in publicly-funded classrooms and universities (with certain exceptions). Encourage the private sector to step in provide ESL tutors at a cost to students wanting or needing those services or as a service of a charitable organization. Provide economic help to students from families who have qualified for and enrolled in a Pre-Citizenship status (see below). Native born students are expected to mainstream, regardless of the language spoken in the home (no having baby born in the US then brought up to exclusively speak a non-English language). ESL services available as noted above.
No more free services for non-citizens Stop providing FREE education, healthcare, or jail and prison services to both legal and illegal immigrants. Instead of charging the immigrant, the bill for services rendered (education, healthcare and incarceration) is eventually presented to their country of origin, with a mark-up that depends on legal vs. illegal status. Pay the bill or expect some economic dings in your relationship with USA. Perhaps countries that are looking the other way while their people flee the country might take a more active role in preventing it.
Repatriate (deport) all illegals to their home country. No exceptions. And make showing up for repatriation non-voluntary. Treat deportees nicely,regardless of their situation. However, the destination point for the repatriation cannot be in a state or province that shares a border with the USA. Charge the home country of the illegals a "restocking fee." Double the fee each time any individual has to be returned.
Deport criminals All illegals who commit crime are deported ... zero tolerance. If the crime is serious enough to warrant incarceration, then the time is served first. Where the crime commited would be punishable in the alien's country of origin, allow prisoner exchanges. We take back our idiots who commit crimes on foreign soil and give back the aliens who commit crimes. If the criminal is freed in his or her country without serving out the sentence, the program ends. If the country chooses not to take a prisoner in exchange, they are held responsible for the cost of incarcerating him or her in the USA, plus a surcharge and any unpaid fines or fees.
Expose countries of origin to civil prosecution If illegal aliens commit crimes in the USA for which damages can be sought. The country can be named as a co-defendent in the crime.
Establish Pre-Citizenship status. For legal aliens only. Indicate your willingness to start jumping through the hoops to become a U.S. citizen and we bend over backward to make your assimilation into our society easy. This application gives the children of immigrants access to our education and health care services as if they were native born. Pre-citizens gain most if not all the benefits accruing to citizen in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The catch ... Pre-Citizens have to going through the process of becoming citizens, not just stay resident aliens interiminably ... and there is a reasonable time limit to accomplish the process (like getting an advanced degree ... you can't take forever to do it). The Pre-Citizen will be required to follow all state, federal, and local taxation requirements and pay taxes on the full amount they earn. The USA has first claim on all the alien's tax dollars. They are being treated like citizens, they pay their way like citizens. Pre-Citizens are expected to take authorized ESL classes if necessary and pay for that service (or receive it as a charitable gift from a provider organization).
Guest workers in the USA have a time limit during which they can apply for US citizenship. During that time and during their Pre-citizenship phase, they pay taxes at the same rate as US citizens. If they fail to launch during that time and remain in the USA, they are taxed at an unfavorable rate and lose many if not all the exemptions provided for US taxpayers.
Charge a stiff Immigration Fee If someone can afford to buy their way into the country, allow that as a way to speed the process (they just have to meet all the same requirements regarding health, sponsors, work etc. that others have. A big fee paid to our government moves them to the top of the immiegration list. Instead of paying large fees to Snakeheads and Coyotes, they could pay them to our government and enter the country legally and safely.
Make Legal Immigration Easier Stop making it difficult for talented, trained, intelligent people who speak our language with competence to come and work in our country and eventually become citizens.
A lot of these ideas seem like they would strengthen America but have the problem of being totally impossible in real life. Even with a majority of Republicans in the house and senate and a Republican president, they were too busy creating new debt (to give to their buddies) to bother with doing things like these suggestions. And I don't think we are going to see this much Rebulican control again in my lifetime.
I don't see why we need to emphasize education, or anything besides lawfulness, when it comes to immigration policy. A person who is picking oranges and paying taxes is still a net benefit to the US, so why would you turn them away? We don't need college educated people to do a lot of the jobs that need filling.
There seems to be a lot of paradoxes surrounding the immigration issue. From the perspective of fiscal conservatism, illegal immigration isn't a bad thing. Not only is illegal immigration a source of cheap labor, but it also dilutes the labor pool which drives down wages across the board... that is something most true fiscal conservatives would appreciate. On the other hand, you have Average-Joe-Republican, who strongly opposes illegal immigration because he's actually starting to feel its effects (also, maybe he's a little racist and xenophobic ).
In the liberal movement, there is a similarly dichotomous reaction. From the economically liberal perspective, illegal immigration hurts labor, because as I mentioned earlier, it dilutes the labor pool and drives down wages. But in terms of social liberalism, there is the issue of immigrants who live in abject poverty, live dozens to a single household, and who are exploited by American industry.
I think the solution is obvious. We shouldn't turn illegal immigrants into felons (not only is it morally reprehensible, but it is attacking the symptom and not the problem). What we should do is go after those who hire illegal immigrants. They are the real problem. Think about it; why are these people crossing the border? What is their motivation? One word: JOBS! So how do you remove that motivation? Simple, you prosecute those providing the jobs to them. Imagine if we were to execute anyone who was found hiring illegal immigrants (of course I don't advocate such a severe penalty, I'm just using a hyperbole to make a point). Pretty soon, employers would make damn sure that all of their employees were legal, documented workers, and it would become more and more difficult for illegal immigrants to find a job. You wouldn't have to build a wall, because they would just stop coming here.
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It would be much easier to legalize 11 million workers voluntarily than it would be to kick out 11 million workers against their will, and LEGAL WORKERS MUST PAY TAXES, something these TV commentators like to forget because it ruins their "free rider" argument.
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Not entirely ture. Most illegal immigrants already pay federal income taxes. In fact, they're paying BILLIONS into Social Security and Medicare (you can read about it here). The difference is, illegal immigrants aren't benefiting from these programs... that is to say, they're paying money in, but they're not taking any out. So, if we were to suddenly grant amnesty to all illegal immigrants, they would be paying the same amount of money into the system, but now they would be eligible to receive these benefits. Therefore, it wouldn't help the problem, it would actually exacerbate it. Kicking them out of the country would also cause a problem... it's a bit of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation in regards to taxes and social programs.
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95% of illegal immigrants take thier money back over the border to spend
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I call BS on that statement. If you're going to give a statistic, back it up with a reference.
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After oil production (Mexico's primary source of capital), remittances sent from the United States back to Mexico are the second largest source of capital for the country (you can read more about it here).
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if they want to be american, we'll make them american...all of them. then send them to Iraq...haha j/k.
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Ever heard the term, "green-card soldier"? One of the ways we're able to fight a war without a draft is we recruit non-citizens by promising them American citizenship for enlisting. The best part is that we don't count them as casualties and we burry them in Iraq... fucking wonderful, isn't it?
I almost forgot something else I wanted to say: I've heard a common falsity mentioned a few times in this thread... it's a falsity that's often perpetuated by both conservatives and liberals, and it's the claim that "they're taking jobs that Americans are unwilling to do anyway." Let me tell you something, there is NO job that Americans are unwilling to do (just watch "Dirty Jobs" on The Discovery Channel for a few examples). They aren't jobs that Americans are unwilling to do... they are jobs that Americans are unwilling to do <u>for that salary</u>. That's an important distinction to make. In the first half of the twentieth century, millions of Americans were more than happy to take these jobs that you deem "unworthy." My great grandfather used to pick oranges in Southern California after the Great Depression, and he made a decent living from it. The problem arises when you have a massive influx of illegal immigrants (the symptom of the problem) and an industry that is willing to exploit them (the real problem). In my previous post, I already gave my suggestion on how to solve that problem... but with corporate interest having so much influence in politics, I doubt such a solution would ever be implemented.
[edit] I'll add one last thing. In the immortal words of Moe Szyslak: "Immigants! I knew it was them! Even when it was the bears, I knew it was them!"
Sorry for sounding dumb but I thought the whole point of the USA was that it's a melting pot for whoever might want to live there, and to have an arguement about immigration sorta ignores how the USA was founded in the first place.
Or maybe I'm just a few hundred years too late on that one.
Basically, as many of my North american friends point out, they are only 2 generations away from Irish or Russian or something like that. Whats the beef with South Americans? Let 'em in!
They're not South Americans. This country was founded on many ideas that no longer apply. Not really land of the free as much as other nations. Plus, the term freedom had a different meaning in those days.
Kinda scary I didn't know about the green card soldiers. And worse we don't count the casualties.
Lots of great arguements in this thread, from a group of artists and gamers. Wish the old dudes in Congress were this creative.
Nice points KeyserSoze (even if you put a dig into my Republican ribs). They cover some points I want to remphasize. And it raises a question or two, especially on the Social Security pay in. If an illegal gets work using forged documents, with a forged Social Security number, I'm curious where the tax he pays goes. If the SS number has been stolen from a living worker, I'll lay odds the income is attributed to that person based on account number, not name. It's attributed to a person somewhere, not a general slush fund. Years down the road, an individual will benefit from the illegal's labor.
Regarding punishing the employers ... those laws are already on the books. That's why to get a job with most companies these days you have to produce all sorts of documentation that goes into their files. That's why a market exists for black market IDs. If you're an employer paying someone to pick oranges for you and you're hiring temp labor, you may not have the resources to do extensive background checks on every worker who presents apparently valid ID. Not condoning, just noting what is likely the case.
Pak: The USA does not want the equivalent of a Quebec within its borders. We don't want a dual language country within a country. You can't force people to assimilate into your culture, but you can require them to pay to maintain it that way. BTW Quebec is the tail wagging the dog, sort of the reverse of what I've suggested earlier.
Hawken: And to address Hawken's comment ... the melting pot concept works when the chunks in it melt. Quebec in Canada is an example of what happens when the chunks actively resist melting.
Ninjas: KeyserSoze brought up some points, particularly the income stream going from the USA to Mexico and Central America from guest workers and the impact they have on the job market in America.
People do not exist without cost to the infrastructure of their place of residence. They drink water. They flush waste into the sewage system. They add to the wear and tear on the roads and highways. They add polution to the air. They generate trash to be removed. They require police, fire, and ambulence protection.
In return, they are expected to pay taxes (of all sorts) and put their earnings back into the general economy of where they live where it will continue to churn (supporting more workers, who in turn pay taxes and put their earnings back into the economy -- that's how economies are supposed to work). If what I've read so far in this thread is true, then illegals are outside this system. Many work on a cash basis in an underground economy ... taking their income out of the taxation stream. To keep costs down, they live with friends or relatives ... increasing population density and use of infrastructure services without significantly adding to the payment process to support the infrastructure (renting or buying their own living space, paying the overhead fees for infrastructure services, etc.). Then, they turn around and take their income and send it outside the community. Sure it's nice that they support their family back in "the old country" but I might guess that part of the poverty (or apparent poverty) issue in some communities could be attributed to significant chunks of money going out of the system rather than supporting it. It's like the trade imbalance, but brought down to a local level.
Addressing the "taking away jobs issues". Illegals don't take away highly desirable jobs. But as KeyserSoze has pointed out, they are taking away jobs that someone has to do. I don't know if it's an issue in every area, but there's a shortage of work available for untrained or semi-trained workers in my community. Or translated: "Kids have a hard time finding summer jobs around here." When you go into a fast food place and half the crew is conversing in Spanish, you've got a pretty good idea that "They ain't from 'round here ...leastways not originally." Which means that there's a bunch of jobs that would otherwise be giving young people their early employment opportunities ... or jobs that should (as opposed to could) be filled by someone local as a step toward keeping them off the public support rolls (and in turn feeding money back into the local community).
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Nice points KeyserSoze (even if you put a dig into my Republican ribs).
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I never miss an opportunity to take a jab at Republicans , but I tried to be as objective as possible, despite my obvious biases.
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If an illegal gets work using forged documents, with a forged Social Security number, I'm curious where the tax he pays goes. If the SS number has been stolen from a living worker, I'll lay odds the income is attributed to that person based on account number, not name. It's attributed to a person somewhere, not a general slush fund. Years down the road, an individual will benefit from the illegal's labor.
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Quoted from the NY Times article I linked to earlier: "IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social Security's finances, it was a great piece of legislation. Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the 'earnings suspense file' in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to."
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Sorry for sounding dumb but I thought the whole point of the USA was that it's a melting pot for whoever might want to live there, and to have an arguement about immigration sorta ignores how the USA was founded in the first place.
Or maybe I'm just a few hundred years too late on that one.
Basically, as many of my North american friends point out, they are only 2 generations away from Irish or Russian or something like that. Whats the beef with South Americans? Let 'em in!
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I don't think that's a problem if they do it legally as all the other countries have to do...
In regards to "green card soldiers" I'd like to see some facts to back that up. Period. Actual facts, not a link to a conspiracy website. From someone in the military working along side some of those folks and being friends with them and helping them with questions for their testing, etc I find it hard to believe we'd just bury them there and forget about em..
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Foehammer: I can't tell if you are joking. They execute people all the time in Texas. When has it not been legal to kill people?
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ummmmmm no, it is not LEGAL for me to go gundown 17 people is it? the Death Penalty falls in a completely different category than murder, it is a punishment, the price is your life.....could probably start a whole other thread on that debate alone...regardless, SOMETHING needs to be done, either soak up the people and get em in the system or round em up and kick em out, either way our border is a sieve. several reports of our citizens being attacked and chased by uniformed men at the border have popped up, that's how bold the cartels are down there and the reason why is because there is nothing stopping them, they traffic people and drugs into this country, build a wall, setup a minefield, hell dig a moat and put gators in it, i dont care, just do SOMETHING, we are being invaded...
ps: GOOGLE: "attacks at the mexican border" for info on some incidents if interested
I agree and disagree with the immigration legislation. Personally, I think it needs a revamp.
1) If you're in this country illegally, you should be booted, PERIOD.
2) If you've applied for paperwork, and are waiting on the immigration service, then of course you can stay. You've gone though the proper channels, and are waiting for the documents.
3) For the love of god, force-feed english to all immigrants. Sorry, I don't care WHAT people say. This is the United States, we speak ENGLISH here. You don't want to learn it? GET THE HELL OUT. If I moved to Italy, I'd damn well learn Italian before I moved there. There is NO EXCUSE for this.
Both Mexico and Canada (and practically every nation) have immigration laws just as strict (if not moreso) than the legislation they're trying to pass here in the U.S. If you're here illegaly, you're a criminal. You F'd up - stop whining and get out.
Yep, exactly what I thought. It says "Citzenship" they are not citizens.. [ QUOTE ]
Some of the families of these servicemen killed in the war in Iraq want them buried as citizens, which they can become if their families apply for it.
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Meaning, they are counted as casualties and are brought back here for burial, they are not granted citizenship since they aren't yet americans and didn't past the test yet.. but some have been given it posthumously, that is far different from dying and getting buried in Iraq.
In Nazi Germany the punishment for disobeying the Nazis, for being jewish or being disabled was death penalty. The Nazis were VERY careful to make sure all of their actions were legal and passed laws to cover everything.
Yep, those attacks on the border should see severe retaliation. Anti-personell minefields, artillery platforms, perhaps those Predator UAV systems. If they shoot at the border patrol they are enemy combatants. If they want war they should get their war. Let the landmines rip them apart.
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In Nazi Germany the punishment for disobeying the Nazis, for being jewish or being disabled was death penalty. The Nazis were VERY careful to make sure all of their actions were legal and passed laws to cover everything.
Yep, those attacks on the border should see severe retaliation. Anti-personell minefields, artillery platforms, perhaps those Predator UAV systems. If they shoot at the border patrol they are enemy combatants. If they want war they should get their war. Let the landmines rip them apart.
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Damn calm down lil' Hitler - ripping them apart isn't the answer - these are poor people just trying to make a living. They're not vermin - they're people. I'd probably do the same thing if I were in their shoes. It would take a lot of courage to move to a completely new place where you knew no-one, especially if you had to sneak there.
Mr. Jaquays makes some great arguments. There's no incentive for the US to annex Mexico. I do still think that the root of the problem is the Mexican government however, and this extends down to the peace officer level. Natural resources they have plenty of, including a large cache of oil. It's how these resources are exploited and distributed is the problem.
Big business in the US has such close ties with the Mexican government because of the cheap labor that nobody has any stake in toppling the pyramid of corruption and the people who lose are Mexicans.
From my personal experience, people here in the US treat Mexicans as sub-human: not worthy of a decent wage, trashy, dirty. Sad really. The generational rate of change is a great point too - the integration isn't in sight but now's the time when people need to start adjusting their attitudes to be more tolerant for that to happen.
That was towards the original point by Keyser.. I just hate how the actual details of some things get all bent out of shape to become something so horrible and reprehensible its not even close to being the truth, but folks believe it anyhow... I've been in the military and I've worked with folks non-US in the military, I've seen them become citzens... etc I wouldn't think his buddies would like to bury him in Iraq and the general folks wouldn't know he's a non citizen by his dog tags anyhow...
"Non-English Language Surcharge Tax. Want to use ANY language other than English in any form or signage, packaging, advertising, or other commercial speech intended for sale, distribution or broadcast within the USA, then you not only HAVE to have an English translation on the package, but you also get to pay a surcharge tax or fee for the priviledge of doing so. Make it an incremental tax, so that the MORE you sell or advertise, the higher the fee you get to pay. Commercial speech is treated differently and may allow for this without affecting the constitution. ESL services for purposes other than training people to speak English would come under this surcharge. "
I had written most of an email on the effects of immigrants sending money to their country of origin, but the electric company decided to cut the power to my building for a couple of hours, and right now I don't have the time to write it again-- but it is interesting, and certainly relates to this debate.
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1) If you're in this country illegally, you should be booted, PERIOD.
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At what cost, and how? It's a nice thing to say, but is it worth a recession? Riots in the streets? Alienating hispanic US citizens? Where are the votes and money going to come for this?
Again, a lot of things sound nice on paper (since it isn't your family getting booted out), but it isn't even on the table. Just the idea of criminalizing immigration brought hundreds of thousands of (voting, American) protesters out, and now the guys who wrote and voted for that bill are shitting themselves trying to find a way to pretend they didn't mean to.
The US doesn't exist in isolation. We have very real economic competition for the first time in my memory. If you thought people were scared of Japan in the 80's, imagine a Japan with ten times the population, and you have China.
We need to grow our economy as much as we can, and economic growth feeds off of agriculteral workers. Farmers are usually extremely hard working, smart, and start off poor so that they have a lot of stuff to buy. We could really use these people.
I may get to writing about the topic of sending money out of the country tonight, but it involves a lot of talk about international trade, so it will probably take me a while to write it.
There shouldn't be laws governing how you live your life in the US of A, not speaking the local language is punishment enough. The real fix is to close the boarder so that we aren't swamped in the first place.
Personally I don't care how hard it is to get into the US, it should be hard. We make our own laws, that's part of what it means to be a sovereign nation, if you come here and break those laws you are a criminal (and as a non citizen, subject to being a political pawn with no real say in the matter), no matter how much of a sham enforcement of those laws are.
"At what cost, and how? It's a nice thing to say, but is it worth a recession? Riots in the streets? Alienating hispanic US citizens? Where are the votes and money going to come for this"
Eh? Like I said, Mexico and Canada have immigration laws JUST AS STRICT - are they in recessions? Are their people rioting in the streets? No. Alienating hispanics? Give me a god damn break. This issue isn't only about hispanics. If any person wants to come to the U.S, they need to get the proper documentation, and go through the same crap we all do. Pay taxes, pay social security, pay tuition fees, EVERYTHING.
If you are looking for examples of economic powerhouses, Mexico and Canada aren't exactly the best choices. They also don't seem to have the problem of industries supported by illegal immigrants like we do.
It seems you don't know much about the immigration policy of the US. Even people with college degrees have a hard time getting coming here to work. Why would you bother with paperwork when you are 100% sure you'll be rejected?
Of course, everybody should have to "[p]ay taxes, pay social security, [and] pay tuition fees". That is exactly my point. Immigration refrom is one way to make that happen, and it is actually possible. I don't see how deporting a person is going to get them to pay taxes in the US. maybe I'm missing somthing.
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You may think that this issue isn't about hispanics, but that isn't how the Spanish language media is covering it. I'm not sure how many people are aware that all of Puerto Rico can vote in US elections. They are all for immigration reform too.
The Spanish news is the mirror image of US news. Instead of stories about cops getting hurt chasing illegals, or drug dealers coming over the border, they have stories of illegals beaten to death by US cops or families who have to send their sons away to work in the US so that they have money for food. I'm not saying what's right or wrong. I'm just saying how it is.
I sense you are getting emotional. I don't know why. That's how I see it, and honestly, I seem much better informed than you are.
Reform? Absolutely. But I don't think current illegals should be given a chance while they are still here. Get out, learn the language and apply properly. The economy might stutter, sure.
But hell, if worse came to worse, I'd bust my ass out in the fields. I did extremely tough labor for years - I'm not afraid of doing it again.
Giving them the chance (while they're still in the U.S) is wrong. You're telling them, "After years of breaking the current law, you're now granted citizenship under the NEW law"?? Yeah, makes sense.....
They kind of have something like that now. Lets say you are a US citizen and want to marry an illegal immigrant. Sometimes the illegal has to go back to Mexico (or their country of origin) for a set amount of time.
I personally think the time to punish people for illegal immigration has come and gone (After the 80's amnisty would have been nice). For years the authorities have treated it like it's no big deal, and I think it would be a bit weird to start punishing people for it now.
I mean, there's traffic tickets that are more punishing than what they do to illegals they catch now.
Look for my posts outside of the general topic section and faint away.
Another thing that pissed me off was the false solidarity with the plight of African Americans. This is total bullshit. Where were these Latin politicians that are now so eager to speak on our behalf (about how we support them mind you) when we were looking for an apology from the Mexican president? Or a billion other times (sometimes with real issues) when we could have used the support?
I used to agree with the point of "make them speak english darnit" because in London we have the same problem; go into a shop, ask the staff a question, they reply in hindi.
That was until I moved to Japan, where 99% of the foreign westernised population can't and don't speak Japanese. Some of them settling and having families. Koreans and Chinese speak Japanese fluently here, sometimes it's hard to know.
If the native americans still ran this country, I'd absolutely agree, Astro.
Hawken - that's unfortuneate. I don't think that a country should change, based on a influx of people. If you're in Japan, you should speak Japanese. It's the only proper thing to do.
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If the native americans still ran this country, I'd absolutely agree, Astro.
Hawken - that's unfortuneate. I don't think that a country should change, based on a influx of people. If you're in Japan, you should speak Japanese. It's the only proper thing to do.
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well the influx of people is what makes a country. It's what made the United States of America
In that "more important" thread, Frank questioned my honesty and motivations for making this thread. I want to dispel the idea that I am trying to convince anyone here to do anything. I don't give a shit about immigration. I see a problem, and there is a timeframe before the November elections to maybe come up with a more optimal solution. Besides that, it always pisses me off when the media figures that so many respect have the idea that they can say anything and Americans will believe it.
All my extended family pretty much has their shit together. They are either naturalized US citizens, permanant legal residents, or have their papers in to become legal. I have no more vested interest in the outcome of this than anyone else here...
Maybe less, because I think for other reasons that the US is on it's way out. It is a sinking ship, and the problem is that people in this country are just too damn stupid/uneducated to compete. He have virtually no industry to speak of. The people who are good at what they do are service oriented folks like us, and we can move to where the work is. I'm going to start learning Chinese next year, and while I have a "wait and see" attitude, I may very well leave this country.
Here are the effects of sending money out of the country. I'm going to try to keep this as short and clear as I can.
Okay, so here is the deal about money sent out of the country. US dollars "sent" to Mexico are in fact used to buy pesos. When there is a large scale purchase of pesos in USDs, the price of pesos denotminated in USDs goes up (that is also called the exchange rate). The peso also trades with other currencies, and so the net effects is that USD becomes worth less (or weaker, as we like to say).
Some effects of a weak dollar are good, some bad. For an economy set up like ours, with so many imports, mostly bad. Other places like China have used a weak currency to get a leg up -- so it really depends on how developed your economy is and your import export ratios. In a nut shell, weak dollars mean we can't buy as much stuff from other countries, but it makes the stuff we sell seem nice and cheap.
The localized effect of people sending money out of their community is also pretty bad. One of the things that has become stereotypical of hispanics is having a nice car, but a crappy/tiny house. There is no incentive to invest in a house if you don't plan to stay in a place. From my expeience, Mexicans are pretty big on home ownership--in Mexico. Being legal could give them a motivation to invest here in the US.
As major as this might seem, buying imports from China or Japan, which we do on a much larger scale, has the same effect. So why hasn't our curreny become weak? The rest of the world sees USDs as a good investment and buys huge volumes. It is hard to tell what exactly is going on because we don't have a good idea how much money is out there circulating. I think there is a good chance that investment in USDs is in a bubble and may burst. As Rick pointed out in the other thread, people are starting to move away from using USD. Even one or two major currency sell-offs could get the ball rolling.
I get very worried. I see the future as so damn unpredictable, and that's what worries me. In the past, the future seemed pretty straight forward.
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Taking the time and effort to find the source of the actual problem isn't on the agenda. Hint: it's often those who write the laws.
@Weiser: truckpool? you know, I have seen a lot of run down trailers with nearly a dozen cars parked in the yard. my bad.
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95% of illegal immigrants take thier money back over the border to spend
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I call BS on that statement. If you're going to give a statistic, back it up with a reference.
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Although I have no proof,I have many co-workers that send their money back home to Mexico or save it for years and move back.They are all legal mexican-americans btw,and recieve good salary as a cook in a chinese fast food place.From what my co-workers said,they thought it was harder for them to keep living in America than it was to move back.
...I do think that making illegal immigration a felony, and making the faciliation of an illegal immigant a felony, are good starts in curbing this.
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So imagine that your mom is an illegal immigrant, but you are a natural born US citizen. What would you do, sell out your mom, or risk going to jail?
Setting up these no-win senarios for people is just plain dumb. Especially when we can easily prevent people from coming across the border.
I wouldn't call it a great idea to take someone who is probably a net benefit to the economy and instead house them for 40K a year in a prison that we need for real criminals (ie, people who have done something immoral).
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I do think that many immigrants do send money back home to their families, and this is just one more reason to try and create a situation where you can tax them. Lets say there is a guy that works 40 hours a week for $10 an hour. He spends $800 of the $1600 he makes tax free a month on all his expenses. This leaves him $800 to send back home. If he is taxed 30% of his income. Since his living expenses are fixed, this means he can only send $320 home now. In other words, a 30% income tax reduces his incetive to work in the US by more than half.
Some random non-researched ideas (and of course, most of these are potentially inflammatory):
Inflammatory Statement 1: We have no vested interest in making Mexico a better place to live unless it somehow directly benefits the citizens of the United States. Government provided foreign aid, like foreign intervention, needs to be for the purpose of improving the lives of Americans, not people living in other countries.
Inflammatory Statement 2: While I proposed it as an interesting 'what if' statement, I do not believe that the USA would benefit from annexing any portion of the Mexico. We have enough problems with entrenched, incompetent, corrupt governments *cough* Louisiana *cough* without having to acquire additional ones ... even if they include great vacation destinations. The time for annexing Mexico passed after the Mexican-American war ended in the 1830s. (BTW - Harry Turtledove's alternate history series that begins with How Few Remain speculates on the Confederate States purchasing the northernmost states of Mexico in the years after the South wins the first American Civil War, making the Confedarcy bi-coastal and precipitating the second War between the North and the South).
Inflammatory Statement 3: I think that the polyglot nature of languages will be what keeps the E.U. from ever achieving lasting unity or becoming a super power unto themselves. That's not a "from left field" statement if you read my comments below. While it's nice to take pride in being able to communicate in multiple languages, I think that embraced differences in language can exacerbate the differences in culture that can stand in the way of national unity and encourage xenophobia.
Inflammatory Statement 4: All peoples (taken as a demographic, not individuals) are inherently xenophobic. Xenophobia is cured by the familiarity and the passage of time. Xenophobia-induced bigotry requires generations to go away and only if the people are working to deal with their issues with the "not-like-me" folk around them. As anecdotal evidence, I ask you to consider the attitudes of your family through multiple generations. Think about your grandparents' attitudes towards the "not-like-us" of their world. Consider your parent's attitudes. Think about your own. If you have kids, what are their attitudes. Chances are, no one in your family significantly changed their attitudes in their lifetimes. But I'll lay good odds that with each successive generation, attitudes changed in a positive manner.
Onto arguing the topic at hand ....
Make our Predominant Language Official. Pass one of those bills that make English the official language of the US of A and all its states, counties, townships and municipalities (including the People's Republics of Berkeley, CA). Stop printing and preparing any and all government documentation that provides versions of government documents. Encourage the private sector to take this over on a non-subsidized basis. If somebody wants a tax form with instructions other than English, or a government services manual let them pay someone in the private sector for it (and pay the surchage noted below), or let volunteer human services groups (religious or secular) take up the slack and provide it free of charge. But the point is the government should not be expected to provide translations to speakers of other languages who choose to live inside our borders.
Non-English Language Surcharge Tax. Want to use ANY language other than English in any form or signage, packaging, advertising, or other commercial speech intended for sale, distribution or broadcast within the USA, then you not only HAVE to have an English translation on the package, but you also get to pay a surcharge tax or fee for the priviledge of doing so. Make it an incremental tax, so that the MORE you sell or advertise, the higher the fee you get to pay. Commercial speech is treated differently and may allow for this without affecting the constitution. ESL services for purposes other than training people to speak English would come under this surcharge.
No more subsized classrooms Stop providing FREE ESL (English as a Second Language) services in publicly-funded classrooms and universities (with certain exceptions). Encourage the private sector to step in provide ESL tutors at a cost to students wanting or needing those services or as a service of a charitable organization. Provide economic help to students from families who have qualified for and enrolled in a Pre-Citizenship status (see below). Native born students are expected to mainstream, regardless of the language spoken in the home (no having baby born in the US then brought up to exclusively speak a non-English language). ESL services available as noted above.
No more free services for non-citizens Stop providing FREE education, healthcare, or jail and prison services to both legal and illegal immigrants. Instead of charging the immigrant, the bill for services rendered (education, healthcare and incarceration) is eventually presented to their country of origin, with a mark-up that depends on legal vs. illegal status. Pay the bill or expect some economic dings in your relationship with USA. Perhaps countries that are looking the other way while their people flee the country might take a more active role in preventing it.
Repatriate (deport) all illegals to their home country. No exceptions. And make showing up for repatriation non-voluntary. Treat deportees nicely,regardless of their situation. However, the destination point for the repatriation cannot be in a state or province that shares a border with the USA. Charge the home country of the illegals a "restocking fee." Double the fee each time any individual has to be returned.
Deport criminals All illegals who commit crime are deported ... zero tolerance. If the crime is serious enough to warrant incarceration, then the time is served first. Where the crime commited would be punishable in the alien's country of origin, allow prisoner exchanges. We take back our idiots who commit crimes on foreign soil and give back the aliens who commit crimes. If the criminal is freed in his or her country without serving out the sentence, the program ends. If the country chooses not to take a prisoner in exchange, they are held responsible for the cost of incarcerating him or her in the USA, plus a surcharge and any unpaid fines or fees.
Expose countries of origin to civil prosecution If illegal aliens commit crimes in the USA for which damages can be sought. The country can be named as a co-defendent in the crime.
Establish Pre-Citizenship status. For legal aliens only. Indicate your willingness to start jumping through the hoops to become a U.S. citizen and we bend over backward to make your assimilation into our society easy. This application gives the children of immigrants access to our education and health care services as if they were native born. Pre-citizens gain most if not all the benefits accruing to citizen in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The catch ... Pre-Citizens have to going through the process of becoming citizens, not just stay resident aliens interiminably ... and there is a reasonable time limit to accomplish the process (like getting an advanced degree ... you can't take forever to do it). The Pre-Citizen will be required to follow all state, federal, and local taxation requirements and pay taxes on the full amount they earn. The USA has first claim on all the alien's tax dollars. They are being treated like citizens, they pay their way like citizens. Pre-Citizens are expected to take authorized ESL classes if necessary and pay for that service (or receive it as a charitable gift from a provider organization).
Guest workers in the USA have a time limit during which they can apply for US citizenship. During that time and during their Pre-citizenship phase, they pay taxes at the same rate as US citizens. If they fail to launch during that time and remain in the USA, they are taxed at an unfavorable rate and lose many if not all the exemptions provided for US taxpayers.
Charge a stiff Immigration Fee If someone can afford to buy their way into the country, allow that as a way to speed the process (they just have to meet all the same requirements regarding health, sponsors, work etc. that others have. A big fee paid to our government moves them to the top of the immiegration list. Instead of paying large fees to Snakeheads and Coyotes, they could pay them to our government and enter the country legally and safely.
Make Legal Immigration Easier Stop making it difficult for talented, trained, intelligent people who speak our language with competence to come and work in our country and eventually become citizens.
I don't see why we need to emphasize education, or anything besides lawfulness, when it comes to immigration policy. A person who is picking oranges and paying taxes is still a net benefit to the US, so why would you turn them away? We don't need college educated people to do a lot of the jobs that need filling.
Non-English Language Surcharge Tax. Want to use ANY language other than English in any form or signage
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This exists in Quebec. it's called Bill 101. It's the reason most of the canadian HQ's moved out of Montreal and over to Toronto.
Forcing culture on people doesn't work. People have to have a real reason to conform, not manufactured reasosns.
Treating large groups of people within you boarders like a pack of fleas only creates animosity and those deep down urges to hate.
Even though I agree with your reasoning i think this 'particular' method stinks.
-R
In the liberal movement, there is a similarly dichotomous reaction. From the economically liberal perspective, illegal immigration hurts labor, because as I mentioned earlier, it dilutes the labor pool and drives down wages. But in terms of social liberalism, there is the issue of immigrants who live in abject poverty, live dozens to a single household, and who are exploited by American industry.
I think the solution is obvious. We shouldn't turn illegal immigrants into felons (not only is it morally reprehensible, but it is attacking the symptom and not the problem). What we should do is go after those who hire illegal immigrants. They are the real problem. Think about it; why are these people crossing the border? What is their motivation? One word: JOBS! So how do you remove that motivation? Simple, you prosecute those providing the jobs to them. Imagine if we were to execute anyone who was found hiring illegal immigrants (of course I don't advocate such a severe penalty, I'm just using a hyperbole to make a point). Pretty soon, employers would make damn sure that all of their employees were legal, documented workers, and it would become more and more difficult for illegal immigrants to find a job. You wouldn't have to build a wall, because they would just stop coming here.
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It would be much easier to legalize 11 million workers voluntarily than it would be to kick out 11 million workers against their will, and LEGAL WORKERS MUST PAY TAXES, something these TV commentators like to forget because it ruins their "free rider" argument.
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Not entirely ture. Most illegal immigrants already pay federal income taxes. In fact, they're paying BILLIONS into Social Security and Medicare (you can read about it here). The difference is, illegal immigrants aren't benefiting from these programs... that is to say, they're paying money in, but they're not taking any out. So, if we were to suddenly grant amnesty to all illegal immigrants, they would be paying the same amount of money into the system, but now they would be eligible to receive these benefits. Therefore, it wouldn't help the problem, it would actually exacerbate it. Kicking them out of the country would also cause a problem... it's a bit of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation in regards to taxes and social programs.
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95% of illegal immigrants take thier money back over the border to spend
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I call BS on that statement. If you're going to give a statistic, back it up with a reference.
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After oil production (Mexico's primary source of capital), remittances sent from the United States back to Mexico are the second largest source of capital for the country (you can read more about it here).
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if they want to be american, we'll make them american...all of them. then send them to Iraq...haha j/k.
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Ever heard the term, "green-card soldier"? One of the ways we're able to fight a war without a draft is we recruit non-citizens by promising them American citizenship for enlisting. The best part is that we don't count them as casualties and we burry them in Iraq... fucking wonderful, isn't it?
[edit] I'll add one last thing. In the immortal words of Moe Szyslak: "Immigants! I knew it was them! Even when it was the bears, I knew it was them!"
Or maybe I'm just a few hundred years too late on that one.
Basically, as many of my North american friends point out, they are only 2 generations away from Irish or Russian or something like that. Whats the beef with South Americans? Let 'em in!
Kinda scary I didn't know about the green card soldiers. And worse we don't count the casualties.
Lots of great arguements in this thread, from a group of artists and gamers. Wish the old dudes in Congress were this creative.
Regarding punishing the employers ... those laws are already on the books. That's why to get a job with most companies these days you have to produce all sorts of documentation that goes into their files. That's why a market exists for black market IDs. If you're an employer paying someone to pick oranges for you and you're hiring temp labor, you may not have the resources to do extensive background checks on every worker who presents apparently valid ID. Not condoning, just noting what is likely the case.
Pak: The USA does not want the equivalent of a Quebec within its borders. We don't want a dual language country within a country. You can't force people to assimilate into your culture, but you can require them to pay to maintain it that way. BTW Quebec is the tail wagging the dog, sort of the reverse of what I've suggested earlier.
Hawken: And to address Hawken's comment ... the melting pot concept works when the chunks in it melt. Quebec in Canada is an example of what happens when the chunks actively resist melting.
Ninjas: KeyserSoze brought up some points, particularly the income stream going from the USA to Mexico and Central America from guest workers and the impact they have on the job market in America.
People do not exist without cost to the infrastructure of their place of residence. They drink water. They flush waste into the sewage system. They add to the wear and tear on the roads and highways. They add polution to the air. They generate trash to be removed. They require police, fire, and ambulence protection.
In return, they are expected to pay taxes (of all sorts) and put their earnings back into the general economy of where they live where it will continue to churn (supporting more workers, who in turn pay taxes and put their earnings back into the economy -- that's how economies are supposed to work). If what I've read so far in this thread is true, then illegals are outside this system. Many work on a cash basis in an underground economy ... taking their income out of the taxation stream. To keep costs down, they live with friends or relatives ... increasing population density and use of infrastructure services without significantly adding to the payment process to support the infrastructure (renting or buying their own living space, paying the overhead fees for infrastructure services, etc.). Then, they turn around and take their income and send it outside the community. Sure it's nice that they support their family back in "the old country" but I might guess that part of the poverty (or apparent poverty) issue in some communities could be attributed to significant chunks of money going out of the system rather than supporting it. It's like the trade imbalance, but brought down to a local level.
Addressing the "taking away jobs issues". Illegals don't take away highly desirable jobs. But as KeyserSoze has pointed out, they are taking away jobs that someone has to do. I don't know if it's an issue in every area, but there's a shortage of work available for untrained or semi-trained workers in my community. Or translated: "Kids have a hard time finding summer jobs around here." When you go into a fast food place and half the crew is conversing in Spanish, you've got a pretty good idea that "They ain't from 'round here ...leastways not originally." Which means that there's a bunch of jobs that would otherwise be giving young people their early employment opportunities ... or jobs that should (as opposed to could) be filled by someone local as a step toward keeping them off the public support rolls (and in turn feeding money back into the local community).
Nice points KeyserSoze (even if you put a dig into my Republican ribs).
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I never miss an opportunity to take a jab at Republicans
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If an illegal gets work using forged documents, with a forged Social Security number, I'm curious where the tax he pays goes. If the SS number has been stolen from a living worker, I'll lay odds the income is attributed to that person based on account number, not name. It's attributed to a person somewhere, not a general slush fund. Years down the road, an individual will benefit from the illegal's labor.
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Quoted from the NY Times article I linked to earlier: "IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social Security's finances, it was a great piece of legislation. Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the 'earnings suspense file' in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to."
Sorry for sounding dumb but I thought the whole point of the USA was that it's a melting pot for whoever might want to live there, and to have an arguement about immigration sorta ignores how the USA was founded in the first place.
Or maybe I'm just a few hundred years too late on that one.
Basically, as many of my North american friends point out, they are only 2 generations away from Irish or Russian or something like that. Whats the beef with South Americans? Let 'em in!
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I don't think that's a problem if they do it legally as all the other countries have to do...
In regards to "green card soldiers" I'd like to see some facts to back that up. Period. Actual facts, not a link to a conspiracy website. From someone in the military working along side some of those folks and being friends with them and helping them with questions for their testing, etc I find it hard to believe we'd just bury them there and forget about em..
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-08-noncitizen-usat_x.htm
Google: Use It.
Foehammer: I can't tell if you are joking. They execute people all the time in Texas. When has it not been legal to kill people?
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ummmmmm no, it is not LEGAL for me to go gundown 17 people is it? the Death Penalty falls in a completely different category than murder, it is a punishment, the price is your life.....could probably start a whole other thread on that debate alone...regardless, SOMETHING needs to be done, either soak up the people and get em in the system or round em up and kick em out, either way our border is a sieve. several reports of our citizens being attacked and chased by uniformed men at the border have popped up, that's how bold the cartels are down there and the reason why is because there is nothing stopping them, they traffic people and drugs into this country, build a wall, setup a minefield, hell dig a moat and put gators in it, i dont care, just do SOMETHING, we are being invaded...
ps: GOOGLE: "attacks at the mexican border" for info on some incidents if interested
1) If you're in this country illegally, you should be booted, PERIOD.
2) If you've applied for paperwork, and are waiting on the immigration service, then of course you can stay. You've gone though the proper channels, and are waiting for the documents.
3) For the love of god, force-feed english to all immigrants. Sorry, I don't care WHAT people say. This is the United States, we speak ENGLISH here. You don't want to learn it? GET THE HELL OUT. If I moved to Italy, I'd damn well learn Italian before I moved there. There is NO EXCUSE for this.
Both Mexico and Canada (and practically every nation) have immigration laws just as strict (if not moreso) than the legislation they're trying to pass here in the U.S. If you're here illegaly, you're a criminal. You F'd up - stop whining and get out.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-08-noncitizen-usat_x.htm
Google: Use It.
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Yep, exactly what I thought. It says "Citzenship" they are not citizens.. [ QUOTE ]
Some of the families of these servicemen killed in the war in Iraq want them buried as citizens, which they can become if their families apply for it.
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Meaning, they are counted as casualties and are brought back here for burial, they are not granted citizenship since they aren't yet americans and didn't past the test yet.. but some have been given it posthumously, that is far different from dying and getting buried in Iraq.
Reading Comprehension.. use it.
Yep, those attacks on the border should see severe retaliation. Anti-personell minefields, artillery platforms, perhaps those Predator UAV systems. If they shoot at the border patrol they are enemy combatants. If they want war they should get their war. Let the landmines rip them apart.
Reading Comprehension.. use it.
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Point taken.
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In Nazi Germany the punishment for disobeying the Nazis, for being jewish or being disabled was death penalty. The Nazis were VERY careful to make sure all of their actions were legal and passed laws to cover everything.
Yep, those attacks on the border should see severe retaliation. Anti-personell minefields, artillery platforms, perhaps those Predator UAV systems. If they shoot at the border patrol they are enemy combatants. If they want war they should get their war. Let the landmines rip them apart.
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Damn calm down lil' Hitler - ripping them apart isn't the answer - these are poor people just trying to make a living. They're not vermin - they're people. I'd probably do the same thing if I were in their shoes. It would take a lot of courage to move to a completely new place where you knew no-one, especially if you had to sneak there.
Mr. Jaquays makes some great arguments. There's no incentive for the US to annex Mexico. I do still think that the root of the problem is the Mexican government however, and this extends down to the peace officer level. Natural resources they have plenty of, including a large cache of oil. It's how these resources are exploited and distributed is the problem.
Big business in the US has such close ties with the Mexican government because of the cheap labor that nobody has any stake in toppling the pyramid of corruption and the people who lose are Mexicans.
From my personal experience, people here in the US treat Mexicans as sub-human: not worthy of a decent wage, trashy, dirty. Sad really. The generational rate of change is a great point too - the integration isn't in sight but now's the time when people need to start adjusting their attitudes to be more tolerant for that to happen.
I'm not talking about the immigrants, I'm talking about those armed smugglers Foehammer mentioned.
Point taken.
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That was towards the original point by Keyser.. I just hate how the actual details of some things get all bent out of shape to become something so horrible and reprehensible its not even close to being the truth, but folks believe it anyhow... I've been in the military and I've worked with folks non-US in the military, I've seen them become citzens... etc I wouldn't think his buddies would like to bury him in Iraq and the general folks wouldn't know he's a non citizen by his dog tags anyhow...
They're not vermin - they're people. I'd probably do the same thing if I were in their shoes.
I'm not talking about the immigrants, I'm talking about those armed smugglers Foehammer mentioned.
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Ahh gotcha. I still think landmines are a bad idea because they get everybody, not just the smugglers.
but english isnt the official language...
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1) If you're in this country illegally, you should be booted, PERIOD.
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At what cost, and how? It's a nice thing to say, but is it worth a recession? Riots in the streets? Alienating hispanic US citizens? Where are the votes and money going to come for this?
Again, a lot of things sound nice on paper (since it isn't your family getting booted out), but it isn't even on the table. Just the idea of criminalizing immigration brought hundreds of thousands of (voting, American) protesters out, and now the guys who wrote and voted for that bill are shitting themselves trying to find a way to pretend they didn't mean to.
The US doesn't exist in isolation. We have very real economic competition for the first time in my memory. If you thought people were scared of Japan in the 80's, imagine a Japan with ten times the population, and you have China.
We need to grow our economy as much as we can, and economic growth feeds off of agriculteral workers. Farmers are usually extremely hard working, smart, and start off poor so that they have a lot of stuff to buy. We could really use these people.
I may get to writing about the topic of sending money out of the country tonight, but it involves a lot of talk about international trade, so it will probably take me a while to write it.
Personally I don't care how hard it is to get into the US, it should be hard. We make our own laws, that's part of what it means to be a sovereign nation, if you come here and break those laws you are a criminal (and as a non citizen, subject to being a political pawn with no real say in the matter), no matter how much of a sham enforcement of those laws are.
Eh? Like I said, Mexico and Canada have immigration laws JUST AS STRICT - are they in recessions? Are their people rioting in the streets? No. Alienating hispanics? Give me a god damn break. This issue isn't only about hispanics. If any person wants to come to the U.S, they need to get the proper documentation, and go through the same crap we all do. Pay taxes, pay social security, pay tuition fees, EVERYTHING.
It seems you don't know much about the immigration policy of the US. Even people with college degrees have a hard time getting coming here to work. Why would you bother with paperwork when you are 100% sure you'll be rejected?
Of course, everybody should have to "[p]ay taxes, pay social security, [and] pay tuition fees". That is exactly my point. Immigration refrom is one way to make that happen, and it is actually possible. I don't see how deporting a person is going to get them to pay taxes in the US. maybe I'm missing somthing.
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You may think that this issue isn't about hispanics, but that isn't how the Spanish language media is covering it. I'm not sure how many people are aware that all of Puerto Rico can vote in US elections. They are all for immigration reform too.
The Spanish news is the mirror image of US news. Instead of stories about cops getting hurt chasing illegals, or drug dealers coming over the border, they have stories of illegals beaten to death by US cops or families who have to send their sons away to work in the US so that they have money for food. I'm not saying what's right or wrong. I'm just saying how it is.
I sense you are getting emotional. I don't know why. That's how I see it, and honestly, I seem much better informed than you are.
But hell, if worse came to worse, I'd bust my ass out in the fields. I did extremely tough labor for years - I'm not afraid of doing it again.
Giving them the chance (while they're still in the U.S) is wrong. You're telling them, "After years of breaking the current law, you're now granted citizenship under the NEW law"?? Yeah, makes sense.....
I personally think the time to punish people for illegal immigration has come and gone (After the 80's amnisty would have been nice). For years the authorities have treated it like it's no big deal, and I think it would be a bit weird to start punishing people for it now.
I mean, there's traffic tickets that are more punishing than what they do to illegals they catch now.
Today is not that day.
Another thing that pissed me off was the false solidarity with the plight of African Americans. This is total bullshit. Where were these Latin politicians that are now so eager to speak on our behalf (about how we support them mind you) when we were looking for an apology from the Mexican president? Or a billion other times (sometimes with real issues) when we could have used the support?
That was until I moved to Japan, where 99% of the foreign westernised population can't and don't speak Japanese. Some of them settling and having families. Koreans and Chinese speak Japanese fluently here, sometimes it's hard to know.
Don't come here if you cannot speak the language, right?
Hawken - that's unfortuneate. I don't think that a country should change, based on a influx of people. If you're in Japan, you should speak Japanese. It's the only proper thing to do.
If the native americans still ran this country, I'd absolutely agree, Astro.
Hawken - that's unfortuneate. I don't think that a country should change, based on a influx of people. If you're in Japan, you should speak Japanese. It's the only proper thing to do.
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well the influx of people is what makes a country. It's what made the United States of America
All my extended family pretty much has their shit together. They are either naturalized US citizens, permanant legal residents, or have their papers in to become legal. I have no more vested interest in the outcome of this than anyone else here...
Maybe less, because I think for other reasons that the US is on it's way out. It is a sinking ship, and the problem is that people in this country are just too damn stupid/uneducated to compete. He have virtually no industry to speak of. The people who are good at what they do are service oriented folks like us, and we can move to where the work is. I'm going to start learning Chinese next year, and while I have a "wait and see" attitude, I may very well leave this country.
Here are the effects of sending money out of the country. I'm going to try to keep this as short and clear as I can.
Okay, so here is the deal about money sent out of the country. US dollars "sent" to Mexico are in fact used to buy pesos. When there is a large scale purchase of pesos in USDs, the price of pesos denotminated in USDs goes up (that is also called the exchange rate). The peso also trades with other currencies, and so the net effects is that USD becomes worth less (or weaker, as we like to say).
Some effects of a weak dollar are good, some bad. For an economy set up like ours, with so many imports, mostly bad. Other places like China have used a weak currency to get a leg up -- so it really depends on how developed your economy is and your import export ratios. In a nut shell, weak dollars mean we can't buy as much stuff from other countries, but it makes the stuff we sell seem nice and cheap.
The localized effect of people sending money out of their community is also pretty bad. One of the things that has become stereotypical of hispanics is having a nice car, but a crappy/tiny house. There is no incentive to invest in a house if you don't plan to stay in a place. From my expeience, Mexicans are pretty big on home ownership--in Mexico. Being legal could give them a motivation to invest here in the US.
As major as this might seem, buying imports from China or Japan, which we do on a much larger scale, has the same effect. So why hasn't our curreny become weak? The rest of the world sees USDs as a good investment and buys huge volumes. It is hard to tell what exactly is going on because we don't have a good idea how much money is out there circulating. I think there is a good chance that investment in USDs is in a bubble and may burst. As Rick pointed out in the other thread, people are starting to move away from using USD. Even one or two major currency sell-offs could get the ball rolling.
I get very worried. I see the future as so damn unpredictable, and that's what worries me. In the past, the future seemed pretty straight forward.