Support Immigration even if you hate hispanics.
polycounter lvl 18
Why you should support immigration in the US even if you hate hispanics:
The following format will present an argument (A) and it's rebuttal (R)
A: Immigrant workers are taking our jobs
R: Many of the jobs that could be outsourced to cheap labor already have been. What remains are extremely unpleasant jobs that have to be done locally like busing tables, roofing houses and picking vegetables. If Americans exist that still want to do this type of work I haven't ever met one, and I live in Oklahoma. If you are one of the few left out of work by this, look at the bright side; the lower costs of goods and services provided by cheap labor means your welfare checks go further. Also, unemployment statistics do not agree with the idea that there are many Americans being put out of work by this.
A: Because they don't pay taxes, illegal immigrants do not benefit the US, so we should deny them legal status (AKA The Lou Dobbs argument)
R: It is simply false to say that immigrants pay no taxes. In places like Texas and Washington they pay as much state tax as anyone else. They pay all the portion of taxes passed on from businesses into the price of their product, and they pay the "invisible tax" of monetary inflation. They do not pay federal income taxes, but they also do not receive the full benefit of the federal government either. While it is impossible to put a dollar value on things like the public school system or roads without putting those things up for sale on the free market, I certainly think it is possible that immigrant workers pay in less than they get out. For the sake of argument I am going to assume these illegals are getting a "free ride" from the government.
So they are getting a free ride, so they must be bad for America right? Wrong. The fact is that American companies in need of cheap labor benefit a lot from these workers. They wouldn't hire these folks unless they felt they were benefiting. These benefits are passed on to the consumer in the form of cheap fresh produce and homes. Since most of the US economy is driven by the market, it should be seen as highly likely that these workers are a net benefit to the US, but lets say again that they aren't.
Then we should try to get rid of them, right? Wrong. It would be much easier to legalize 11 million workers voluntarily than it would be to kick out 11 million workers against their will, and LEGAL WORKERS MUST PAY TAXES, something these TV commentators like to forget because it ruins their "free rider" argument. But lets say you just hate seeing brown skinned faces. Here is the kicker; legalizing workers will result in fewer hispanics in the US! You see, once they are legal and paying taxes, their take home wage will be much smaller. The people employing them will have the expense of adhering to government guidelines, so they will pay them less. These workers were never planning on coming and staying here. Most of them were just saving to go back to Mexico, but how can you save when all your income is taxed away? You can't. And so legalizing immigration drastically reduces the incetives for Mexicans to come to the US.
The cap on this argument is that all those Mexicans who do come here just to save up and return to Mexico pay into the social security system and never benefit from it. Awesome!
A: I'm a Republican, and hispanics vote Democrat.
R: If Republicans don't vote on this now, they are only going to be more screwed when the Dems take the house or the senate. Maybe instead of pissing all these future hispanic voters off now, you can turn it around and make them Repulicans. After all, they are traditional religious people with strong family values, so they would in fact be a natural fit.
A: We should send those protesters back to Mexico
R: As much as redneck white-trash hillbillies would like to think that all those folks in the streets are illegal immigrants, in fact I'm pretty sure they are not. There are millions of hispanics who are legal US residents who have family that are illegal. Maybe it would be a good idea to deport the parents, wives, aunts and uncles of US citizens -- if you like warfare in the streets. People who have their family taken away from them usually don't stop at just peaceful protesting. At the very least, you can expect generations of very active voters who vote against the Republicans.
A: They are criminals.
R: I find this an ironic statement coming from the decedents of genocidal murderers. For all those pure-blood white folks living in the US, if you want to see an illegal immigrant you can just look in the mirror.
The following format will present an argument (A) and it's rebuttal (R)
A: Immigrant workers are taking our jobs
R: Many of the jobs that could be outsourced to cheap labor already have been. What remains are extremely unpleasant jobs that have to be done locally like busing tables, roofing houses and picking vegetables. If Americans exist that still want to do this type of work I haven't ever met one, and I live in Oklahoma. If you are one of the few left out of work by this, look at the bright side; the lower costs of goods and services provided by cheap labor means your welfare checks go further. Also, unemployment statistics do not agree with the idea that there are many Americans being put out of work by this.
A: Because they don't pay taxes, illegal immigrants do not benefit the US, so we should deny them legal status (AKA The Lou Dobbs argument)
R: It is simply false to say that immigrants pay no taxes. In places like Texas and Washington they pay as much state tax as anyone else. They pay all the portion of taxes passed on from businesses into the price of their product, and they pay the "invisible tax" of monetary inflation. They do not pay federal income taxes, but they also do not receive the full benefit of the federal government either. While it is impossible to put a dollar value on things like the public school system or roads without putting those things up for sale on the free market, I certainly think it is possible that immigrant workers pay in less than they get out. For the sake of argument I am going to assume these illegals are getting a "free ride" from the government.
So they are getting a free ride, so they must be bad for America right? Wrong. The fact is that American companies in need of cheap labor benefit a lot from these workers. They wouldn't hire these folks unless they felt they were benefiting. These benefits are passed on to the consumer in the form of cheap fresh produce and homes. Since most of the US economy is driven by the market, it should be seen as highly likely that these workers are a net benefit to the US, but lets say again that they aren't.
Then we should try to get rid of them, right? Wrong. It would be much easier to legalize 11 million workers voluntarily than it would be to kick out 11 million workers against their will, and LEGAL WORKERS MUST PAY TAXES, something these TV commentators like to forget because it ruins their "free rider" argument. But lets say you just hate seeing brown skinned faces. Here is the kicker; legalizing workers will result in fewer hispanics in the US! You see, once they are legal and paying taxes, their take home wage will be much smaller. The people employing them will have the expense of adhering to government guidelines, so they will pay them less. These workers were never planning on coming and staying here. Most of them were just saving to go back to Mexico, but how can you save when all your income is taxed away? You can't. And so legalizing immigration drastically reduces the incetives for Mexicans to come to the US.
The cap on this argument is that all those Mexicans who do come here just to save up and return to Mexico pay into the social security system and never benefit from it. Awesome!
A: I'm a Republican, and hispanics vote Democrat.
R: If Republicans don't vote on this now, they are only going to be more screwed when the Dems take the house or the senate. Maybe instead of pissing all these future hispanic voters off now, you can turn it around and make them Repulicans. After all, they are traditional religious people with strong family values, so they would in fact be a natural fit.
A: We should send those protesters back to Mexico
R: As much as redneck white-trash hillbillies would like to think that all those folks in the streets are illegal immigrants, in fact I'm pretty sure they are not. There are millions of hispanics who are legal US residents who have family that are illegal. Maybe it would be a good idea to deport the parents, wives, aunts and uncles of US citizens -- if you like warfare in the streets. People who have their family taken away from them usually don't stop at just peaceful protesting. At the very least, you can expect generations of very active voters who vote against the Republicans.
A: They are criminals.
R: I find this an ironic statement coming from the decedents of genocidal murderers. For all those pure-blood white folks living in the US, if you want to see an illegal immigrant you can just look in the mirror.
Replies
Interesting read, Ninjas, although I'm not from the USA so I probably don't understand a lot of it, it'll be interesting to see how people react.
My wife works for immigration.
Fact: You can become a citizen and get social security, without ever putting one penny into it. (I won't have any Social Security when I get older, why should a senior immigrant get anything when they didn't put anything into it, when I have for over 20 years and won't get a thing.)
Fact: Illegal Immigrants get better healthcare and free baby care and delivery (as well as their baby automatically is an american citizen) and the poor of America that are citizens do not recieve the same benefits.
There was an amnesty in the 80's that allowed everyone that was illegal to claim citizenship and they've volleyed that idea around a few times again...
Fact: The immigration department has been split up into several different divsions now under Home Land Security and sit 20 feet from each other but can't discuss things with each other without approval from Washington first.
Immigration is totally f'ed up it's a tedious process the issue isn't really about the illegal's becoming citizens as much as it is about securing our borders, I don't think anyone really has a problem with Jose coming across the border to pick oranges, the major issue is the latest figures were like 1.5 million illegal immigrants snuck into the country last year, not all of them are good upstanding folks, if we could screen those immigrants for criminals and bad apples, etc it maybe a totally different position.
It's not black and white, it's a shade of gray. It's heritage and hate, it's english and spanish. People don't like going to a McDonalds and seeing spanish only menu's in America, it's a stupid pride thing, they feel if you are going to meld into a community you need to know the language first. It's all kinds of crazy if you look at the whole apple instead of just a portion of it...
I think it might also send a message to the poor living in Mexico that it's much easier to immigrate to the US "where the streets are paved in gold". Do we build a wall across Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California? Get real.
There might be a longer lasting solution, and not one that our government and its corporate sponsors may like, and that is to take out the corrupt Mexican government. Make 'em a state. Just speculating here of course but there's a reason everyone there is so poor and it's not for lack of local resources.
Once you give a 'illegal' immigrant a worker visa it doesn't stop there it opens other gates and avenues.. They need to drive to get to their jobs, so now they need a license.. now that they have jobs we need to provide them healthcare, ok now that they have photo id, we no longer have a valid way to tell if you are a valid american citizen, as most of america relies on your license or some kind of photo id to show who you are, etc.. Once you get a license you can get any number of things, bank account, credit, what ever you can think of really, there is no end.
Illegal immigrants aren't the issue either as if a van full of immigrants is stopped and turned in to immigration they release them immediatly as there is no reason to deport them unless they've committed a felony or are wanted for criminal charges.
They put people in deportation proceedings all the time and it's up to the immigrant in 9 out of 10 cases to show up for deportation as it's an honor system thing, only unless you are a criminal is the deprotation proceedings a requirement. If you don't show you don't go...
The main issue is there is still many legal ways on can become a legal immigrant and it's easier to sneak across and expect a handout then it is to spend the time to try and do it within the rule of law. Europeans, Spainards, Thai, etc all go through the legal channels but since Mexico is landlocked with the US they are the main people at issue. All illegal immigrants aren't hispanic either.
Hispanics don't necessarily vote Democrat. Otherwise, Texas would be a strongly Democrat-controlled stated ... which it is not.
Turning a blind eye on illegal immigration spits in the eye of every immigrant or immigrant-wannabe who has followed the rules in their journey to America. I have friends who would like to come to America, but can't because we have laws that require certain hoops be jumped through for legal immigration.
I think the strongest argument against illegal immigration is that it overwhelms our ability to assimilate cultures into our own. Instead forming a melting pot, we end up with communities within communities that run the risk of never assimiliating, continuing to be "hyphenated-americans" for generations longer than is good for the country as a whole. The ultimate risk is a sort of balkanization into regions that can't get past their cultural differences to become one nation.
I wonder if the worst thing we did to Mexico was NOT taking away California, Texas and the Southwest in the early 1800s, but our failure to bring it and the rest of central America into the U.S.A. It's a very "Imperialist" view, I know. It would definitely make for some interesting alternate history speculation (now that I think on it, the main argument at the time would have been whether they would be "slave" or "free" states).
I dont mean to be racist, but comming from an area that used to be nice and subsequently turned intoa ghetto by illegal immigrants, i have to take my stand on this as opposing illegal immigration. it's nothing personal, but my home used to rest in a nice park area 2 years ago. More and more hispanic families began buying homes there in this townhouse development. But they were buying it as 10 individuals. The neighborhood is now over populated to the point where I can't even park in my owned space. They trash the neighborhood up, blast loud repetitive music till all hours of the morning, turn the parking lot into a car workshop and never clean up the parts, and thier children run rampant in the streets without supervision. Since thier arrival we have had 10 home break-ins, 20+ car break-ins, and 3 cars stolen, and 2-3 shootings. God only knows how many drug dealers there are now. None of them speak english, so you can't ask them to move cars, or turn the music down.
My experience is'nt unique in my area. I am also a very tolerant person, but I have been forced to look into selling my home. I find it ridiculous that they choose to live in an expensive area, such as D.C., when they can get the same jobs in the midwest and afford better life styles.
Tax paying, legal american citizens should not have to suffer on behalf of these horribly social archeaic people. On the other hand, those who obtain citizenship legaly, and i have met hudreds, appreciate it more and actually value what they have and respect for others. I'm not saying they need to end immigration, they just need to police it better.
I can't even go to the grocery store without needing to know spanish. Take out/fast food is the same way. The janitorial staff in our office steals things and we have yet to replace them with staff that does'nt. They throw away items that are not trash, simply because they think it is. We had to hire a bi-lingual consultant just to make signs and training material for them.
Teens are finding it harder to get work now as well. My cousins cant find jobs because all the typical McDonalds/Litter pickup etc jobs are taken by people who dont mind working for minimum wage. It benifits employers, but gives the impression that people are willing to work for minimum wage, which has'nt changed in my state for decades.
95% of illegal immigrants take thier money back over the border to spend, it disrupts our economy, and our population is growing too rapidly with illegal immigration.
now that you all think i'm a nazi, you are all free to spend a week in my house to see this for yourself. i hav'nt gotten a full nights sleep in years. the house across the street, yes street, plays thier stereo so loud it shakes things off my walls. the police do nothing about it.
Politically:
You all know damned well they will approve this. It's a giant PR thing, and as pointed out before easier to legalize them than remove them. I dont have to like it, no one does. But it's not like i can just up a move out of country as easy as it is for these folks. They should'nt have that right, at least not without the challenges every other person in the world has to go through to move out of country. Though I am a bit of an exception, I have a red passport heh.
not to flame Ninjas, but somehow i doubt the issue is as visible in OK, as it is here.
The whole green card "lottery" is absolutely absurd, that is exactly why you get alot of morons into the country that shouldn't be in here, in my personal experience its alot easier to become a citizen if you sit back in whatever country you're at, apply for a green card and randomly get it than actually move here, work hard, hire lawyers to help you become legalized, learn to language, embrace the american culture, go to college and be a productive citizen.
where's the logic in that? what the hell?
the indian reservation and pay them back rent and taxes for the past 200 years.
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Can you actually explain how that has any relevance to the subject at hand?
*edited* as it was only stated once, Ninja's was overly stating all white folks are decendants of genocidal maniacs...not relating to the indians directly.. I'm sure in every family, you'll find some lineage somewhere that you aren't too happy with, but you can't change history.. but you can change the present and future.
A good movie on the subject (in general) is Life in Debt.
So instead of allowing ourselves to get caught in this rather stupid arguement, we should instead make our elected government deal with the iusses that have promoted this migration for so long. Of course, thats bad for business for those who are able to make a profit off this inequality.
Heck I'd be happy if we could bring up the poor, homeless and starving in this country prior to worrying about another country.
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Ok sorry if im wrong but its largely their own fault that they are homeless. You could always get some job to atleast pay for a roof over your head, it shouldnt be that hard when even people who speak 0 english can do it but the homeless are either "too good" for the diswasher job or they have alcohol/drug problem (that is their own fault BTW) or they earn more being a bum.
I'm a dirty immigrant, and I'm here stealing all your jobs and shagging your womenfolk.
Heck I'd be happy if we could bring up the poor, homeless and starving in this country prior to worrying about another country.
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So would I, but that beside the point. If you look at the economic system, it isnt being used to at least allow Mexico et. all to raise themself to the status. I mean I hope you dont truly believe that all parts of the governments of these Nations are so inebt that they would allow this poverty to happen on such a national scale?
I don't know about the US but there's a lot of illegal work being done here that's performed by legal citizens, usually receiving unemployment benefits and working a job secretly to both evade taxes and keep the benefits.
I more or less completely agree with everything everybody has said in this thread. We are in a crappy situation. Ghettos are awful, and at the same time seemingly unavoidable. I still think that the best way to get fewer people here is to legalize it and make it easy, and make it very very hard to do anything else without facing jail time or getting blown up. I think it will work, put less preasure on our strained resources, is politiclly doable and give us a fighting chance against a massive and growing asian economy.
I honestly think that welcoming good, honest, hardworking folks on the condition that they learn some english would help integrate us together. Some expression of good will towards them would help get us all off on the right foot, and maybe make us look a little better in the history books.
That and the whole "they're stealing our jobs!" argument has alway ALWAYS been a load of bullshit. If someone from another country is able to do equal or better work than you, for less pay, they will be more desirable to employers. I don't know about other states but I see verrrry few white people working for yard work companies and the like.
A: They are criminals.
R: I find this an ironic statement coming from the decedents of genocidal murderers. For all those pure-blood white folks living in the US, if you want to see an illegal immigrant you can just look in the mirror.
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This is your rebuttal? That a bunch of folks did it "wrong" three or four hundred years ago, so their progeny a dozen generations removed hasn't any grounds for trying to enforce it 'right'? MY ancestors came through Ellis Island in 1909, legally. By this sort of rationale, it's okay for ME and my kind to judge who deserves to stay or go, yeah?
You made good arguments, but not every point can fall in your favor. The legal argument is one of those you can't win.
95% of illegal immigrants take thier money back over the border to spend
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I call BS on that statement. If you're going to give a statistic, back it up with a reference.
I think the strongest argument against illegal immigration is that it overwhelms our ability to assimilate cultures into our own. Instead forming a melting pot, we end up with communities within communities that run the risk of never assimiliating, continuing to be "hyphenated-americans" for generations longer than is good for the country as a whole. The ultimate risk is a sort of balkanization into regions that can't get past their cultural differences to become one nation.
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Wow, very interesting point, Paul. The cultural perspecgtive seems to get lost amongst the legal and commercial arguments, but this very well could be a more significant issue. I don't worry about the legalities of it too much myself, and the jobs being taken aren't jobs I'm seeking, so they feel like non-issues. On the other hand, it seems surreal to imagine a part of America being a place I couldn't fit in to or feel like I'm 'connected' with the rest of my countrymen. While it's a rare occurance, I find it uncomfortable to be in places or groups with people speaking non-English languages - not as an issue of racism or xenophobia, but simply because I'm not able to relate to them in such a fundamental way. I'll have to give this more thought, partiuclarly the notion of a Balkanized American southwest.
Mostly, people should be a little more compassionate, and think more about "right" and "wrong" instead of legal or illegal. At the time, it was perfectly legal for the Nazis to murder 6,000,000 jews. It wasn't until afterward that we came up with the idea of war crimes.
While I said it in a somewhat sensationalistic way, my point on your fisrt post there is that the orginization that defines what is or is not legal exists only because it displaced the original owners of this territory by using genocide. While the individuals are dead and burried, the organization is not.
Mostly, people should be a little more compassionate, and think more about "right" and "wrong" instead of legal or illegal. At the time, it was perfectly legal for the Nazis to murder 6,000,000 jews. It wasn't until afterward that we came up with the idea of war crimes.
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Now you're talking. The problem as you'd see it isn't that what immigrants are doing is illegal, but that the law is flawed. But we need to accept that humans can and should improve upon the morals and legal structure of their predecessors - if not, we'd still be plucking out an eye for an eye. Enlightenment has to come with an awareness of what has come before, as well as an acceptance of that past.
While it's a rare occurance, I find it uncomfortable to be in places or groups with people speaking non-English languages - not as an issue of racism or xenophobia, but simply because I'm not able to relate to them in such a fundamental way.
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There are many parts of the world where this happens all the time. Say.. Europe. I mean that arguement is a intrinsic personal POV, and not neccessarily a valid point. Let us not forget there have been (in example) "Little China's" in many a urban city for decades. These add to the local culture, not subtract from it since they did not "melt" in the general consensus of the whole.
I like Paul's interesting idea as well. I mean why not offer to bring Mexico into the US as a state, it'd be a huge ass state but why do we treat that hispanic culture any different than puerto rico and they aren't even attached to us. It may be way too late to even attempt it, but that would be pretty cool.
I am an Arizona native and have lived in the southwest all my life. I have seen both the good and the bad related to illegal immigration so I'll state my view on both.
The Good: There's no doubt the cheap labor pool has it's benefits. I have seen it first hand when it comes to the jobs most Americans arent willing to do any longer. The manual labor, landscaping, car wash, construction cleanup, hotel maids, etc, etc. The fact of the matter is most of us just wouldn't work those jobs so it makes sense to allow immigrants access to these jobs. Yes there are economic benefits to a migrant workforce, mostly resulting in a lower cost of goods for certain industries but most companies will not and cannot afford to openly hire illegals even if qualified to do so. My neighbor runs a large construction company and risks fines or worse daily to employ migrant workers to stay competitive. He has lost many qualified carpenters, crew leaders, etc. to immigration authorities over the years and has learned to accept this as a part of doing business. I have known many good illegal workers over the years. Most of which wanted very much to stay and become US citizens and for good reason.
The Bad: Not all the illegal workers I have seen first hand are here for a better life. They may be here for a better wage, but many could care less for America or Americans in general. Because they may have been here and back several times they speak broken English and demand a higher wage and free lunches than those who speak no English at all. Heres a recent scenario I witnessed: Pickup drives up to a group of obvious illegals standing at the corner. Driver slows down and pulls over and the group immediately rushes the truck. One illegal asks the driver how much do you pay? The driver replies $6 an hour. The illegal replies No. these guys need $8 an hour plus lunch The nervous driver now intimidated asks if any speak English and the response is always a little although any of them rarely speak a word of English. Seconds later 3 guys pile into the pickup and it speeds off. Amazingly, by the time I filled up my tank I watched this guy pimp off three separate crews of workers and yet he never once offered to get in and work himself. Some little racket hes got going on I thought. Remember, its very rare for an illegal worker to accept anything other than cash at the end of a work day which speaks volumes for any so called taxes they pay.
Additionally, you would be amazed at the amount of State tax dollars spent to accommodate the illegal population. This is most prevalent in the health care and public school expenses which alone are straining the system as it stands. Its already been mentioned about the babies being born across borders, but consider the costs of healthcare in general. We are a compassionate society and dont turn away the sick or injured at the hospital door. The problem is they cant pay for the care they receive, so American tax payers end up footing the bill. My kids attend public schools, and virtually every teacher has to have a bi-lingual aide to assist with the non-english speaking children. Again, taxpayers pay for these costs. But you say illegals pay sales tax on the things they buy which is true, but sales taxes are only a small portion of government funding and most likely a mere fraction of the above costs.
Lastly, on a personal note, my wife and kids were hit by a drunk driver one Friday afternoon by an illegal who had just gotten off work and was already halfway through his 24 pack of bud light. Thank God, nobody was seriously injured but because he had no insurance, drivers license or legal status my insurance company ended up paying for everything. Whos insurance premiums are affected by this? Mine.
The bottom line is we need serious immigration reform no doubt. I do believe everyone has a right to seek a better life for themselves and their families as long as it is done within the law! If you come to America to work or to become a citizen then you should be expected to live within the laws of the United States. Yes this means you will pay taxes, and be accountable for your actions just as we all are. And you should certainly try to learn English, although thats a whole other subject in itself. Citizenship in any country should be an earned privilege and not an automatic right regardless of how long you been inside the country.
My two cents:
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:thumbs up:
I can see its degradation into stereotypes. Stereotypes are not people, they are a easy way to group people based on some diffence as so you can then make a judgement call easier on them as a whole. All the arguments given could be for any group or individual.
Quick example: There are plenty of people who have no insurance and drink.
Im Hispanic and I dont approve of illegals crossing the border. I know that the processes for legalization and recognition as a US citizen is very lengthy and retarded, but Rockstar has a good point about his working status. He is a hardworking taxpaying citizen as he continues living in the US doing so. What most dont know/understand is that the emigration/legalization process is meant to filter out the uneducated and detrimental members of another countrys society. That doesnt mean that is still isnt frustratingly difficult to try and become a us citizen. But when a person does its rewarding to know that you are a part of this country. My great great grandparents came to this country legally as a way to acknowledge to themselves and this country that they put in the effort to make that transition into US citizens and I respect that.
Of course someone crossing the boarder illegally to enjoy the fruits that this country has to offer is the same as spitting on that newly legalized person in the face. Most illegal immigrants from mexico that I have come across dont have any intention of wanting to be a US citizen and all of its difficulties. They have enough knowledge to know that legitimate employment means having to pay taxes and other deductions and places like hospital emergency rooms HAVE to take them in and treat them. As far as I know they want jobs that will give them as much money as possible and their fake documents and SS number mean that they pay taxes and sort of contribute, but if they have family and a child born into the us then they receive benefits such as Medicaid and food stamps, in addition to the pay the father may be receiving.
Most other people I have met that are from other countries (iran, India, Thailand, korea, china) work as hard or harder than most Americans, but a country being landlocked really strips away any moral reasoning to coming to this country legitimately in order to contribute to it like everyone else.
I know I have ragged on about illegal aliens a lot here, but I do want to acknowledge that there are people in this bunch that want a better life and whatnot. But these illegal immigration issues and other problems that persist are two sided and involve the US and Mexico. That said, the only way to really end this is to help mexico reform its government into a country with an economy that can support its people and in doing so leave out all reasoning for its people to leave in the first place. But we all know that will never happen.
The Mexican govt. is so corrupt and has been so poorly run its almost unbearable to see all of the reform going on in the past decade thats trying to make the nation better. And that said, you can bet you ass that most first world countries target developing countries for their labor and resources and the US is no different. NAFTA is so one sided its atrocious. In many instances the agreement people lost jobs more than it created them. Now with the added stress of more people in poverty the US has only looked better and better and the capitalist way to get more for your money and illegal immigrants are fine cheap labor. It just happens to be that this sort of bizarre and unspoken work ethic of hiring illegal immigrants is so much a way of life that you cant deny that the country needs it to sustain itself. But politicians will always be against it because it seems like its the right thing to do.
I honestly think that welcoming good, honest, hardworking folks on the condition that they learn some english would help integrate us together. Some expression of good will towards them would help get us all off on the right foot, and maybe make us look a little better in the history books.
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I agree completely. The issue is that the stereotypes stand out so much more than the hard working legal immigrants it's hard for average joe american to understand. As angry as I am about my life being impacted, I know in a heartbeat I would help an individual who wanted citizenship and would be willing to learn some english and go through the legal process right.
Stereotypes or not, you dont see Indian ghettos, or russian ghettos, or british ghettos do you? I see racial neighborhoods, but none I would consider a ghetto or any i would avoid. I dont even walk outside anymore here, you just can't without being harrased. I'm the only white guy left in the neighborhood.
They make bad names for themselves. I know it probably already exsists, but is'nt there a national organization founded by legal immigrants to assist illegal immigrants with obtaining citizenship? Social training, law training, english courses? I support immigration offices technically, but I dont understand the citizenship process completely.
The money being taken back over to mexico was in a CNN article. I'm too lazy to find it, but if you really want to find it go for it. They may have been speaking about 'in texas or bordering states'. I know for a fact most families send money back to mexico so that other members can pay border hoppers. i know families that did this.
I was also in a car accident with an illegal immigrant. i also totaled the car and was forced to buy another. My insurance company barely paid a thing, I had no comprehensive, and she could not pay for it. i can't sue her. She was'nt arrested, nor would I have the heart to push that. it completely ruined my life at the time. she got away scott free.
OXY: In Virginia you can not register a car without insurance. You can not buy a car without insurance. You can not get the vehicle inspected without the DMV registration. And without those stickers or legal plates you would be pulled over constantly. So I don't think there are as many uninsured drunk drivers as you think. They would have to go through quite a bit. I'm sure laws are similar around the US, if not, they need to be.
Quick example: There are plenty of people who have no insurance and drink.
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Yes, but if you are in this country illegally, Mexican, Chinese or Nigerian, etc. there is just simply little or no recourse against that person in the event of an accident such as this. Most illegal's have little or no tangible assets domestically to go after to recoup costs. Not to mention the fact that prosecutors have poor legislation in place to successfully prosecute illegals for these types of problems. Usually the worse they face is deportation. The topic was illegal immigration, not drunk drivers without insurance. Illegal immigrants driving our streets uninsured and <u>unaccountable</u> is only part of the problem, not a stereotype.
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While it's a rare occurance, I find it uncomfortable to be in places or groups with people speaking non-English languages - not as an issue of racism or xenophobia, but simply because I'm not able to relate to them in such a fundamental way.
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There are many parts of the world where this happens all the time. Say.. Europe. I mean that arguement is a intrinsic personal POV, and not neccessarily a valid point. Let us not forget there have been (in example) "Little China's" in many a urban city for decades. These add to the local culture, not subtract from it since they did not "melt" in the general consensus of the whole.
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Not disagreeing with that at all. Like I said, "I find it uncomfortable." I expect that the pockets of homogenous foreign culture that exist in America (the Chinatowns you mentioned), they may feel the opposite - integration with mainstream American culture may be intimidating and so they have no incentive and may even prefer to remain somewhat isolated. To each his own, but I definitely prefer a situation in which I can communicate and in some ways relate to people rather than ones I cannot. How Europe never got together with one common language after all these years is amazing to me
At the time, it was perfectly legal for the Nazis to murder 6,000,000 jews. It wasn't until afterward that we came up with the idea of war crimes.
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Pardon me, but WTF are you talking about, when was it ever LEGAL to kill people? WHAT HAVE I MISSED OUT ON!!!!
I think we can all agree that the current situation is totally screwed up. One of the reason we got into this mess is because nobody has wanted to deal with such a complex and unpleasant issue. Instead, they have just pretended like there isn't a problem. Complete immigration reform + border security is a good start.
About the whole border issue. I think of border security more as a matter of national pride. I mean, even Mexico does a better job of securing it's southern border then we do ours. If a two-bit country like North Korea can keep anyone from getting in or out, I'm sure with all our high tech kit we can do even better.
A) learn some english
C) get my friggin order correct just this once (see A)
plus I see expanding our borders as a better plan than building a wall. if their government sucks that bad, just take it. if they want to be american, we'll make them american...all of them. then send them to Iraq...haha j/k.
I think the Republicans have a great plan to solve immigration. collapse OUR own economy with dumb ideas and careless spending. good thing we have walmart.
I have no problems living around Asians, Middle-Easterns, and New Yorkers....except for the latter's ability to drive. At least Mexicans carpool.
then send them to Iraq...haha j/k.
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Actually, some are already there. I know you put joke in there at the end, but interestingly and perhaps surprisingly (and I only discovered this fairly recently) you don't actually have to be a US citizen to serve in the US military.
There are 60,000 immigrants in the US military. About half of those are 'non citizens'.
Once you get a license you can get any number of things, bank account, credit, what ever you can think of really, there is no end.
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I am not American, I'm a legal immigrant here, and this is 'not' true.
Not only could I not get a bank account without a social security number, I couldn't even get a cellphone. not even the pay-as-you-go type.
You cant get a drivers lic without a social security number.
You can't do anything in this counrty without documentation. No credit cards, no bank accounts, no drivers' lic, not even a blockbuster membership.
Your info isn't entirely accurate.
-R
I picked up my t-mobile pay as you go with no problems, I don't recall giving them any of my info, bought a phone and a prepaid card and about 5 minutes later in an all automated call I had a phone.
Hate to nitpick but I reread your statement and it isn't quite correct actually. I see your overall point, but you do actually say that a driving licence can lead to getting credit and bank accounts. That just isn't true. You need an SS number to get those things. I wouldn't consider a prepay phone as credit btw.
All the morons in my school are saying and I quote : "Keep those fucking spics out of the United States!"
I hate my school, and everyone in it.
However...
I DO have a problem with people working here and not paying income taxes.
I DO have a problem with children being enrolled in our public schools illegally and my hard earned tax dollars paying for their education.
I DO have a problem with our borders being so easily penetrated.
I DO have a problem with the degredation of neighborhoods and crime that seems to have followed them in.
I DO have a problem with them not assimilating into the culture of the United States. Yes, the PC term these days is to have a "Multicultural" society in the US, but this creates divisiveness, racism, and balkanization, which leads to the weakening of the country as a whole. I feel that someone coming into this country and refusing to speak English, and waving their Mexican flags shows an incredible disrespect to the country that they are benefiting from.
Overall, I saw this coming to a head a few years ago, and personally, I am glad for it. I don't know if deporting 11 million workers is a solution, but I do think that making illegal immigration a felony, and making the faciliation of an illegal immigant a felony, are good starts in curbing this.
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Mexicans carpool
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Hahahaha