Denmark refuses to apologize over Prophet cartoons

Jes

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticl...;archived=False

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Denmark's Prime Minister said on Sunday his government could not act against satirical cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed after Libya closed its embassy in Copenhagen amid growing Muslim anger over the dispute.

The newspaper Jyllands-Posten had not intended to insult Muslims when it published the drawings, Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen said, referring to an editorial on the paper's Web site in Danish and Arabic.

But while Rasmussen tried to assuage Muslim anger, Libya on Sunday closed its embassy in Denmark in protest at the drawings.

Earlier this week, Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador from Denmark and Saudi religious leaders have urged a boycott of Danish products.

"Because the Danish media had continued to show disrespect to the Prophet Mohammed and because the Danish authorities failed to take any responsible action on that, Libya decided to close its embassy in Copenhagen," the Libyan Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

It also threatened to take unspecified "economic measures" against Denmark.

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As a Dane, I'd like to apologize to all believers of Islam out there - Sorry guys, but our Prime Minister is a Bleedin' Moron!

I voted for the other party anyway... (and 1% differences are quite common over here) <_<"

tpe

ok the guy is an ass. but it is important to be able to make fun of all, especially establishments religion and statesmen, that little thing called free speach is so important. anyone who disagrees should go and live in china.

tim

Jes

True, but this is more of an insult than a joke - Even I think that the images were rather annoying, and I couldn't care less about religions as a whole!

And it doesn't help that Fogh's practically dismissing the inflicted parties as though they should just sod off and mind their own business.

Rick Stirling

Good for him. If everyone rolled over and apologised for every view someone disagreed with we'd be living on planet Sorry. There are more important things that need to be apologised for.

KDR_11k

"Because the Danish media had continued to show disrespect to the Prophet Mohammed and because the Danish authorities failed to take any responsible action on that, Libya decided to close its embassy in Copenhagen,"

What? They did the only responsible action there is in a country where human rights exist and that is nothing because freedom of expression supersedes other people's religious beliefs. I'm sure Libya thinks that censorship would be a responsible action but that's why Denmark is a democracy and Libya is a dictatorship (according to the CIA).

palm

I really don’t se why the Prime Minister should apologize for some offensive carton in a newspaper? Last time I checked our neighbours to the west live in a democracy with the freedom of speech. I don’t give a shit about how offended Libya are. However maybe the publishers of the cartoon should apologize, but that’s a different story.

I don’t know shit about Libya, but it’s really obvious that it’s not a democracy

palm

Maybe I should start read the other posts before I post myself. I added nothing to the discussion.;)

hawken

Well it all stems from the belief that Prophets are not allowed to be depicted in images, not that it was offensive. Nutters.

Are we heading for the dark ages?

(it's not like you're gonna lose any beer export sales!)

KDR_11k

If you interpret the commandment strictly, all depictions are forbidden (though it's probably meant to apply only to depictions used as idols) and in all three jewish religions. I've heard that christianity dumped it because they didn't translate it until they had already built up a big pile of Jesus merchandise and wanted to sell those.

Ninjas

My folks live in the Middle East, and I have to admit that muslims seem to belive the most adsurb form of quackery I have ever heard of. No drawing humans or animals, no treating women like human beings, no dice/cards, no telescopes, no booze, no religous freedom. Really, it isn't our fault they are so touchy about almost everything. Italy didn't freak out when the US helped fund Piss Christ. Maybe it's because I'm an athiest, but closing shop 5 times a day to pray seems like it would get a little annoying...

LordScottish

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I've heard that christianity dumped it because they didn't translate it until they had already built up a big pile of Jesus merchandise and wanted to sell those.

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It's as valid as all the other commandments from the old testament in christianity. How valid this is would be a long discussion. But either way, what you heard is obviously wrong, since this special commandment is not handled any different than the others.

Asherr

or more likely reasons would be to keep people from arguing over what exactly God/Allah/Muhammad/whoever looks like, so that people don't start to worship the idol itself instead of the deity it represents.

if someone had carved an image of God from a piece of wood or rock in ancient times what would that mean? would it be a holy relic? would that man suddenly be a holy man? how long before less savory people started to exploit people by making their own idol and then, say, charging to see it?

but hey what's a discussion concerning religion/religious aspects on these boards without a few disparaging remarks thrown in?

snemmy

all i know is that the Libyians killed Doc Brown after he took their plutonium before Marty went back in time and wrote the Doc a letter that he tore up and then taped back together and wore a vest so that he didnt die.

Paul Jaquays

Early Christians used religious art as teaching tools. Of course the line between illustration of stories and images intended to be gods (little "g") to be worshipped is probably blurry and indistinct. I'm not sure myself how to interpret the Catholic saint culture, or Orthodox emphasis on icons (which all seem sort of "graven image"-ish to me).

Iconoclasts of the early church took issue with Christian images and went out of their way to destroy pagan ones, even though no one worshipped the pagan gods anymore (much of the sculpture of classic Greece met this fate).

The early Hebrews avoided the issue by saying don't do it at all (The book Asher Lev, which I read a million years ago for one of my college classes) is an insight in the trials of a young Jewish artist going up against his heritage. As I understand it, Islam is very hung up on representations (especially ones that are potentially critical) of their Prophet Mohamed. Given the global-culture nature of the modern world, their reaction to these cartoons published in Denmark is perhaps more than a bit unreasonable. If an Islamic nation has a beef with something published in another nation whose laws allow free speech and expression, their beef is with the company that published it ... not the nation in which that company resides. And it's also their responsibility to deal with it in an enlightened and mature manner.

My opinion ... the religion of Islam (in ALL of its variants and sub-cults) needs to either come to negotiated, peaceful terms with the rest of the modern world (both religious and secular) -- or accept that eventually, even tolerant, liberal nations will get fed up with their constant Holy War mentality.

Just my controversial, biased opinion.

ScoobyDoofus

I dont even have to talk when these threads come up usually, because Paul J. almost always eloquently expresses pretty much what I would have said.

StrangeFate

Wow, those guys need to relax... someone has to invent a working chill pill.

Scott Ruggels

I applaud the newspaper, the cartonists, and the PM for not appologizing. So I will go out an show my support and buy a tin of butter cookies.

Scott

Zatoichi

[ QUOTE ]

As a Dane, I'd like to apologize to all believers of Islam out there - Sorry guys, but our Prime Minister is a Bleedin' Moron!


[/ QUOTE ]

And as an agnostic Bright, I'd like to say I'm sorry for the followers of Islam. But then again, I feel sorry for anyone of any religion. "We're so sorry we have freedom of speech" Uh... no.

[ QUOTE ]
the religion of Islam (in ALL of its variants and sub-cults) needs to either come to negotiated, peaceful terms with the rest of the modern world (both religious and secular) -- or accept that eventually, even tolerant, liberal nations will get fed up with their constant Holy War mentality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, they plan on doing neither. Sorry. In fact they hope that the rest of the world will eventually turn Muslim. That all will accept Islam and Muhammad as Allah's prophet. Funny, that's the point of most religions... that you believe in them and them only (except I guess you can be Buddhist and an athiest... but that's an exception to the rule) right?

Joao Sapiro

religions moved the world...then removed its wheels and made it smash into a wall.

nkoste

We have free speech and a free press and that's one thing I'm not apologizing for - neither should the prime minister.

Ramucho

freedom of speech doesn't mean bashing other's people religion as it's against any kind of ethic and morale.

And for the Islam part, Islam is a very wide religion (approx 1.2 billion people around the world) so it's pretty logical that it has more hardcore and dumbass people than any other religion. And being a not believer doesn't mean you have to go around spitting on other's people's religion.
Religion is very important for some people so it shouldn't be something people can joke about.

KDR_11k

freedom of speech doesn't mean bashing other's people religion as it's against any kind of ethic and morale.

Freedom of speech means the unrestricted ability to express your oppinion. If this oppinion does not conform with the values of some religious organization that's their problem.

And for the Islam part, Islam is a very wide religion (approx 1.2 billion people around the world) so it's pretty logical that it has more hardcore and dumbass people than any other religion.

Christianity is almost twice as large and Hinduism has 900M followers according to Wikipedia. Those should have corresponding numbers of hardcore and dumbass people if that was a purely proportional number.

danr

i notice no-one is criticising Leonardo Da Vinci for that cartoon he did of the Virgin & Child ... once again it's one rule for the Italian masters and another rule for the rest of us.

Ninjas

I personally find it funny that members of a religion can treat half of their followers (the females) worse than I treat my dog and then expect for anyone else to respect them or their beliefs.

I understand that there are moderates, but they aren't the ones complaining about cartoons in a newspaper

As far as not being able to make fun of things, people can make fun of my beliefs all day and it doesn't bother me. Why would it? Someone could make fun in my belief that the earth moves around the sun, but it would only prove their stupidity.

Ramucho

just remember that in the 40's religion bashing lead to genocide...

ninjas; islam has a lot of respect for women, you're only talking about the kind of common stupidities you can hear these days. The women don't even have to cover their face.
The fact is Christians and Jews set standards for their religions instituting places like Vatican and stuff. But muslims because of their weird geography/demography didn't have any kind of organisation, so that anyone that can read classical arab can make his own interpretation of the Quran.
Another thing is that most of the muslims live in under developped countrys (or at least the one most of the people hear about)so they have a very "old traditional" culture and it has alot of default like for women rights... And don't forget that in most "civilised countries" women had the right to vote only 50-60 years ago.

And on a last note; it's very hard to be a muslim at this mo because of all the shit ignorent people keep spreading around. And also and especially after 9/11.

Keep the bashing down guys, it's just useless, won't serve for your future or anything and won't help the people you're bashing. Because very often it leads to racism...

Fordy

Don't worry Ramucho I don't think anyone her would purposly go about bashing either yours or anyones elses religion. We all know its the fanatics that cause the problems and I doubt there's anyone here who cant tell them from ordinary muslims.

nkoste

Of course you should respect other peoples beliefs, but criticism isn't racism. This debate HAS to happen - There's no way anyone can live in peace if no one can ask or critisize. Tell me how's that religion supposed to evolve then? You don't ask questions you just follow.
The simple fact that comic artists receive thousands of death threats for depicting a religious figure strongly makes me want to defend their right to do it.

If anyone's read the article here is the newspaper's following response to the critique:
http://www.jp.dk/meninger/ncartikel:aid=3527646

Ramucho

actually I don't really care about the newspaper problem itself the prime minister shouldn't apologize but it's good the newspaper did
On the other side depiction of the prophet isn't allowed as in islam the prophet "idealization" isn't as strong as the Christian one.
Hardcore people are creating a lot of problems for all the believers, we all have the same God, and Islams recognize Jesus, Moses and Abraham that's why I think the concept of "holy war" is a political bullshit. And about people bombing themselves, any kind of suicide is synonym of a permanent visit to satan (it's written that war should be declared before by the two parties, and not even trees should be damaged.
heh sorry if I was too long but being a foreigner for half of my life, I've been hearing a lot of misleading infos .

Just remind one thing never fall in the trap of Hate

flaagan

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

Ramucho

hehe thanks for the link flaag, as you can see the limit between freedom of speech and provocation are very subtle. and it often leads to the most offensive and racist form of expression.

LordScottish

Freedom of speach has many limits, many of them can be found in criminal law. For example libel or defamation, in fact even fraud actually limits freedom of speach. I would be very careful though when it comes to religious liberty letting restrict freedom of speach myself. In this case, I don't even think religious liberty is touched, since it should protect the freedom of the believer and not mainly cut the freedom of everybody else. Muslims are still free to believe what they want and they are free to not make pictures of mohamed himself.
Libel or defamation can't be considered here, since it's obvious that these caricatures only aim for a small part of the muslim community. After all I don't know what they want to achieve with this protest, do they want the western states to break their own laws?
I myself don't find those cartoons very constructive, but everybody else and all the other religious groups have to live with freedom of speach as well.

KDR_11k

Freedom of speech is actually the freedom to express your oppinion (and not just in speech but writing, painting and other forms of expression as well), not the freedom to say anything you want. The speech crimes you listed involve stating untrue claims as facts. That's the difference between "All muslims are terrorists!" and "To me all Muslims look like terrorists.", the one is a claim, the other is clearly an expression of an oppinion. Generally, religions are complex oppinions on how the world works and criticism of the religion itself always falls under freedom of speech. Equating Mohammed with a pig is an oppinion and all oppinions, no matter how obviously stupid, insulting, etc are generally protected under the human right for freedom of expression.

LordScottish

What you say is only true for fraud, and even there the difference between fact and opinion is not a clear one. If the seller of a computer game says he thinks this game is great, then it's just an opinion. If a computer game company hires dozens of people who claim in many forums that a game is great (was posted in another topic), then the focus shifts toward the fact, that many people like this game. As you can see, even with fraud what you said is only true for the obvious cases.
The second mistake you made is that opinions are generally protected by freedom of expression. Check Swiss StGB Art. 177, revilement, for example. This is a direct limitation of freedom of speech, as you are not allowed to express your opinion beyond a certain degree.
Most of the basic rights, even the human rights are being legally touched all the time. You can't avoid this, since some of them are contrarious by themself. But imho, as I mentioned above, this is not the case when it comes to those cartoons.

Erol

Didn't anyone learn anyhthing from the whole Satanic Verses debacle?

Joshua Stubbles

I don't think they need to apologize. Honestly now, how many times has ANY GOD been charicatured? Hundreds? Thousands?

Do you see tibetan monks rioting or setting buildings on fire because someone drew Buddah in a bad way? Do you see christians or catholics running amoc in the streets, hurting people and burning flags? NO.

Everyone is taking this too far. They are CARTOONS. Simple as that.

Ruz

well I am no raqcist, but i think you we should be able to laugh anyhting, without ll this hoo hahh.

Daz

I try incredibly hard to not to be judgemental of people, especially large groups of people, but the fact of the matter is that deep down Islamic fundamentalists absolutely terrify me. There's just something about the rapidity with which they seem to resort to violence and aggression as an answer that just makes them seem so, I dunno, irrational and impossible to reason with. Like an ex-girlfriend of mine in the middle of a heated row; nothing I could say would calm her down, she just wanted blood. Angry mobs outside embassies frenzily chanting over and over "God is great. We will defend him with our blood and our souls" Seriously, it gives me the creeps. That mentality is just so seemingly at odds with the modern civilized world. It just seems so positively archaic. It's just about the most significant threat to world peace imo. I'll never ever get it, and as somebody that constantly teeters between being an agnostic and an atheist depending on mood, I often think 'my God, they're all going to feel tremendously silly when they die and find out that there is nothing'. Except they wont feel anything of course.

Erol

When you realize most of these people live in poverty and have very little in their lives to keep them going other than religious zeal, it's really not that surprising at all. Factor in the last 100 years of Western-induced problems, again, it's not surprising at all. Add the last four or five years of violence and growing European intolerance in the face of frustration, it's really not that surprising at all. So when you have all this anger, and only *one* thing in your life to keep you alive, and someone attacks it, no matter how benign it might seem to our Western, and mostly ignorant world perspective, it's really not that surprising at all.

What's the solution? I don't know. But a good start would not being so shocked by things that by no means come out of left field.

tpe

There is probably nothing that could be said/written by the fanatics that would ilicit the same type of reaction here in Denmark. The violence that has been sought over the embassies has resulted in small but peacefull protests, even if they bombed the subway i dont think the reaction would be the same, what is it that makes 2 groups of people react so differntly.

tpe

Mishra

why do they not get up in arms about jesus being depicted? he is a prophet also. they seem more bothered that he was depicted at all, rather than the fact that he was depicted as a symbol of violence. but then, it'd be rather hypocritical to burn down an embassy and claim "you said our prophet was violent!" just like it's a bit hypocritical of protestors to wave "democracy is hypocrisy" in the UK, using their democratic right to be able to do so.

Moz

What you people don't understand is how islam works. Muhammad stated quite clearly that he should never be worshipped or depicted as it would detract from Allah, it's one of the fundimentals of islam.

It's like depicted Jesus murdering and raping people, it goes completely against the teachings.

I'd wager that less then 10% of you even knows the first thing about islam.

Marine

[ QUOTE ]
What you people don't understand is how islam works. Muhammad stated quite clearly that he should never be worshipped or depicted as it would detract from Allah, it's one of the fundimentals of islam.

It's like depicted Jesus murdering and raping people, it goes completely against the teachings.

I'd wager that less then 10% of you even knows the first thing about islam.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm pretty sure that they're not supposed to slaughter innocent people in the name of allah, either, but these very same extremists don't seem too bothered about that.

Ninjas

[ QUOTE ]
Muhammad stated quite clearly that he should never be worshipped or depicted as it would detract from Allah, it's one of the fundimentals of islam.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I'm not an Muslim, so why should I care? It doesn't apply to me.

MoP

Ninjas, there's a little something called respect and compassion... just because something doesn't apply to you doesn't mean that you should flagrantly disregard it and wave it in their face.
However I agree that this uproar is entirely out of all proportion - it's crazy that they can burn buildings over such a little thing as a drawing in a newspaper.

oXYnary

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but I'm not an Muslim, so why should I care? It doesn't apply to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

As MoP said. Compassion? Empathy? Understanding? Are you a man or are you an animal?

Ninjas

No, I agree, and that is why I don't go around telling Muslims how to live their lives, or what to print in their newspapers. Personally, the way women are treated in many muslim cultures makes me want to puke. Cartoons don't hurt anybody, but beating the shit out of your wife because she doesn't wear a burka (ninja mask) certainly does. Yet, I think they should be totally free to live life in whatever fashion they choose in their own sovereign nations.

Moz

You obviously don't know the first thing about islam you racist ignorrant bastard.

Ninjas

Since when was religion a race? And you call me ignorant?

Maybe instead of name calling, you can point out where I am wrong. Don't muslim women have to wear a mask when the men don't? I certainly don't know much about muslims, that is for sure. Why not educate me about it since you seem to think of yourself as an expert.

Kevin Johnstone

Family guy has an episode where Jesus is shouting at Joseph 'you're not my real dad, I don't need to do what you tell me' and then he phones god to ask if he can come and live with him and god is in bed with a whore, presumably his fancy woman and she shakes her head and god makes excuses to jesus so as to not offend her.

I thought it was very funny, but I expect a lot of the bible belt folks in the area I live would find that just as insulting as Islamic people find other nations going against their beliefs with these cartoons.

I think this is a better comparison than leaping to the extreme of Jesus murdering and raping, though didn't South Park have jesus go on a gun toting killing spree at one point?

r.

Asthane

I'm with Ninjas on this one. They believe something, so what? If they believe their belief means they can tell me how to live my life, tough shit. Yeah, their lives may suck while I'm in the bosom of civilization over here, they may commit suicide because of something I do. Tough shit, that's THEIR problem. Allowing oneself to be controlled through roundabout preventive shit like this goes against MY personal ethics. It's the same kind of logic that goes into paying ransoms or saying women 'invite rape' by dressing appealingly. No. You do something, whether it's based on your impulses, beliefs, or sense of pride, that's your own fucking fault.

No, I don't know anything about the islamic religion, and I don't have to to say something is dumb shit. Doing it for a religion or belief doesn't make it any less so-- rather the oposite, in fact.

acc

Telling people they don't know anything about Islam is pretty ridiculous considering that nobody freaking follows it. For example, the whole concept of peace. I seem to recall that being in there somewhere. Oh, I think tolerance was in there too. Hahahahaha. Organized religion never ceases to amuse.

Oh I'm sure there's some little group of peaceful Muslims somewhere, right beside the ever-so-elusive peaceful Christians, packed somewhere in the middle of a billion lunatics. What a downer it must be to be the 0.0001% of your religion that actually follows it.