Christianity is agressive religion, thats what i have against it. It pretty much says that if you belive in some other god you are utterly wrong and you are going to hell for it, no that is fucking selfish.
Not to mention that before christianity was invented all people went to hell because they couldnt belive in it?
And i fail to see what it teaches, the bible is some cryptic text that you can define how the hell you please to justify your cause.
Now i dont force you to not belive in it, if you want to go ahead, its your life. But for fucks sake dont come knocking on my door and babbling how i must belive in it!
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Christianity is agressive religion, thats what i have against it. It pretty much says that if you belive in some other god you are utterly wrong and you are going to hell for it, no that is fucking selfish.
[/ QUOTE ]Oh, and it has the world's largest online flametard fanbase, Even though other religions(and us atheists) aren't really that far behind if you count relative percentages...
+The mere stupidity of some christians
+ That I find scientific facts more plausible than religious beliefs
= Me Atheist!
If Jebus didn't exist, then I'm cool - If he DID exist, then I'm cool. I don't really care much whether or not some religion is hoax or true; the fact that Christmas is a good thing for thousands of people is enough for me to celebrate it! As such, it doesn't make me say "shush" or anything when people say MERRY CHRISTMAS - I mean, c'mon!!
Are words and sentences like "Merry Christmas" really that big a deal nowadays? When we've got hatemongers such as Jack Thompson word-smearing everyone not agreeing with him, and getting away with it?!
It's Christmas! It's almost more popular than Christianity ITSELF!!
Seriously, This O'Reilly guy (from first post) is a f'ing MORON who, like JT, doesn't have a bloody clue as to what he's talking about.
Banning X-Mas?!? Yeah, right!
I'm a follower of the "If we can't prove nor disprove God he obviously doesn't make a difference therefore I don't care" belief. The state should make sure that neither it nor any of its employees publicly endorse or condemn any religion because that's what the constitution means with "separation of church and state". That extends to not allowing display of religious symbols.
It's another thing for private people or enterprises, when you're not acting on the behalf of the state you should be free to choose your beliefs. If Wal Mart chooses to be areligious that should be their prerogative.
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Christianity is agressive religion, thats what i have against it. It pretty much says that if you belive in some other god you are utterly wrong and you are going to hell for it, no that is fucking selfish.
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Nah. The Dominus Iesus allows for salvation outside literal Christianity. To quote the relevant bits:
"For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation."
And:
"With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God ... comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it in ways known to himself."
You may hear otherwise from this or that group of Protestants, but Catholicism is the oldest and largest Christian faith, and they're onboard with inclusive salvation.
I have no problem with "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Channukah", and why should I? I don't give a fuck what people want to believe in or celebrate. If somebody wished me Happy Channukah, I wouldn't be offended. Sheesh.
The only thing I see that is stupidly PC, is the "Holiday Tree" issue. What other religion puts up a tree this time of year with balls on it? Right. It's a CHRISTMAS tree. So on that hand, I can understand why the rightwingers are up in arms, and some people who aren't too religous either. I am a devout, I mean DEVOUT Atheist, but there is a little part of me that feels like the traditions I grew up with regarding holidays are getting stripped away in the name of diversity and political correctness. But Oh well, what can you do? Get angry, I suppose. Spout off on a messageboard or to your friends. Nothing really gets accomplished. Just say "Merry Christmas" if you want...or not. Pretty simple really.
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I'm a follower of the "If we can't prove nor disprove God he obviously doesn't make a difference therefore I don't care" belief.
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Are you familiar with Pascal's Wager?
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The state should make sure that neither it nor any of its employees publicly endorse or condemn any religion because that's what the constitution means with "separation of church and state". That extends to not allowing display of religious symbols.
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That's not what the Constitution means. It means that the government (a body distinct of its employees) cannot create or interpret legislation that specifically pertains to an organized faith. The people employed by the government can endorse or condemn whatever they like, insofar as they do it as private citizens and not in an official government capacity. The infamous Ten Commandments judge from Alabama, Roy Moore, was perfectly entitled to endorse Christianity on his own time. If he wanted to erect a few stone tablets a la Moses in his own front yard, more power to him. It was his attempt to do so in a public government courthouse that turned it into separation issue, because it suggested a possible religious bias with interpretation of the law.
I really don't think athiests are the ones motivating this sort of thing. After all, there are hundreds of thousands of non-christians who celebrate Christmas. Mostly, it is politicians fearing some sort of outcry, proactively avoiding possible problems.
Religions are based on the idea that being stronger, smarter, having magic powers or begotting a person gives one the right to do whatever you want to that person. Anyone who reads the bible will see that the Christian god is an asshole (read the book of Job or the tower of babel). If I have to suffer for eternity or bow down to someone like that, I would rather suffer. That is why I am an athiest. I reject on logical grounds that a "higher power" can exist.
"Because if you look at what happened in Western Europe and Canada, if you can get religion out, then you can pass secular progressive programs, like legalization of narcotics, euthanasia, abortion at will, gay marriage, because the objection to those things is religious-based, usually."
Yes, god forbid people stop letting religion think for them and do some of it themselves ¬_¬
Wow some really twisted views of religion rearing thier ugly head here.
Job suffered at the hands of satan. But since you don't believe there is a God you also don't believe in the devil so it is really likely that no one named Job ever suffered. So why do you bring up examples you beleive to be false?
The book of Job doesn't point out how much of an asshole God is it points out that Satan was wrong. Satan said the only reason Job even likes you is because you give him such nice stuff. Let me at him and I bet he curses your name. Job never did curse God, even after Satan did those horrible things to him. Bad shit happens to good people if you believe in God or not. Just because someone believes in God doesn't mean thier life suddenly is filled full of roses and puppies. In fact the bible and Jesus to a great extend tells you life will get worse, harder and you will want to give up and quit, but don't. I think people get a twisted view of reigion based on a the missbelief that they get to float around on a cloud protected from the crap that happens around them. Sorry to break it to you but you don't get the cloud until after your done here.
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Yes, god forbid people stop letting religion think for them and do some of it themselves ¬_¬
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Right, because everyone that believes in God is a moron who isn't cabable of thinking for themselves. I guess all those really smart people in history who happened to be scientist that believe in God, they where really just being spoon feed thier knowelge from some religous insider book we don't have access to.
I guess all the tallented/knowelgible people on this forum that happen to believe in God, are idiots?
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oh and if your atheist then how about removing the words hell, damn, god, gah, geez, bejeezus, and other such religious derivatives from your vocabulary plz?
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Is this directed at me? I'm not an atheist, and even if I were, I would have no problem using "religious" words.
I should stop reading and posting. Really I wish people wouldn't throw down the gauntlet by calling everyone that believes in God a mindless moron. But you are right its much easier to just roll over and take than it is to actually stick up for yourself.
Right, because everyone that believes in God is a moron who isn't cabable of thinking for themselves. I guess all those really smart people in history who happened to be scientist that believe in God, they where really just being spoon feed thier knowelge from some religous insider book we don't have access to.
I guess all the tallented/knowelgible people on this forum that happen to believe in God, are idiots?
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Woot, go go overzealous black-and-white views.
I never said "Christians are all mindless idiots" or anything of the sort. I was commenting on a quote that says, and I re-quote: "...the objection to those things is religious-based, usually.". If you pay attention instead of biting my head off for posing an oppinion, it was never my intention to say anything about christians or religion. Rather, my comment was solely applicable to the person who expressed that view.
You have to admit, at first glance your post looks pretty damn inflamitory. It looks like a quick jab to win points with the people who had started to turn this thread into a "we hate religion" thread. I did skim the quote and then got to your post and my jaw hit the floor. I've reread it about 30-40 times and let me know if this is an acurate way of restating what you said. I am trying to look at it with a clear head. ok here goes.
"If you remove religion from education people are free to make informed decisions on thier own."
or
"if you take the answer 'because god said so' out of the discussion people can be free to explore further"
Than I agree with that.
I still think however that your statement implied that people belonging to any kind of religion are not thinking for themselves and just take whatever answer is given to them. Sort of "you could just think past your religion for a second we might get some where". Which I feel is wrong, religion is education. If you just show up to church on sunday say some stuff sing some songs and go home, than you don't have a religion you have a country club for people who like ritual. In religion you can have bad teachers who expect you to take whatever they toss out, without ever questioning it. I wouldn't count them among the the true followers of anything resembling a christian religion. A good religious teacher is not afaid of people who ask questions and doesn't try to shame them into believing "just because".
However religious education has its time and its place, which is not in public schools durring school hours.
Vig. Just because I'm an athiest doesn't mean I don't believe anything in the bible, and I never said anything to that effect. For example, the Christian god could be a very real evil alien overlord. Maybe he even created us. The fact is I don't know. All I know is that there is no such thing as a being with automatic elevated moral status, and so no being fitting the discription of a "God" can exist.
I have read a lot of books. I read the book of Job without expectation (having no idea what it is about) and that is how I read it. Anyway, even if the Bible was filled with a nice fair god, it wouldn't change my opinion that people are soveriegn and deserve to make their own choices, even if super powerful overlords exist.
To all those not familiar with the book of Job, here is my digest version.
Devil: "Hey God. See that dude who is such a good follower of yours. I bet I can make him turn against you."
God: "I don't think so."
Devil: "Okay, let me try!"
God: "Even though he has been a good follower and never done anything against me, and what you are planning will inflict massive amounts of pain and suffering on him? Sure, I don't see why not."
Later-- Job who had a great family, and lots of money is now broke, alone and with a couple of nasty, very painful diseases.
Job [screaming in the sky]: "God, why have you let this happen to me? I never did anything to deserve this!"
God: "Who are you to question me? I can catch Laviathan on a fish hook! Were you here when I created the world? How about you shut the fuck up!"
Job: "Of course, you are absolutely right."
And God gave Job a ton of money, and he lived happily ever after.
Anybody who thinks I'm exagerating can google the book. I haven't read it in years, but I think this is fairly accurate.
Vig, you're reading into his comment WAY too much. It was O'Reilly who suggested that people use their religion to make decisions by claiming that secularism would result in people passing legislation that is typically opposed on a religious basis. Asthane was basically saying that he thinks it would be a good thing for people to NOT base their choices on religious dogma.
That I agree with. When I read his post the first time I didn't think it was a quote (since he didn't bother to use the quote tags), I thought it was all from him.
Ninja, you don't believe in God but you think that God actually had a coversation with the Devil? Take it or leave it. If you are athiest then you don't believe in God, end of story.
argh, I've spent way too much time sitting here, staring at the screen, trying to formulate a post.
first off, I think it's wrong to judge someone based on their personal religious beliefs.
If christians are starting to feel like they are oppressed then multiply that by 10 and that's how the other side feels (or at least how they feel in the south). There aren't any famous athiest pundants on the TV saying christians should have their citizenship revoked or be kicked out of the country.
Vig. I'm sorry you can't understand the plain english in my posts. Let me spell it out for you.
If I said I was god, and you didn't believe me, would that mean that you think I don't exist? I don't believe anyone's claim that they are god. Simple, see? Unless you think it is unreasonable to believe that there are liars.
I think of the bible as a self help book. It has a number of stories that are illustrative of human nature. Some of the stories are even entertaining.
I'll write extra simple. I don't believe in Gods. Anyone claiming it is a liar. I don't know about the factual accuracy of the bible.
Ninja, your digest of Job is pretty acurate. You did leave out Job's friends and the bad advice they give him. You also left out why God rewards Job in the end and why he tells Job's friends to atone for what they had said.
To boil down Job even further.
Life is going to suck at times no matter what happens don't turn your back on God.
1) The thing about the New Testament is that, in large part, it supercedes the Old Testament. The "God's an asshole" complaint inevitably comes from the Old Testament; Christ changed many things. I can get into the theology and sociology of why this is so, but I don't know that it would serve much point.
2) Again to cite Catholicism, the Church does not favor a literal interpretation of the Old Testament. It's allegory and parable, it's not the verbatim word of God. You can be a Catholic and believe in evolution, realize that Noah couldn't put all those animals in one boat and that Jonah probably didn't get swallowed whole by a whale. The tales of Job and the Tower of Babel are not any different, and (IMO) not a terribly compelling reason to take issue with a divine creator.
Ninjas, A true atheist doesn't believe in God, the devil, or what happened to Job. Basically you are saying you believe that God "could" exist but you don't like him because he lets bad things happen to good people.
Vig, I think what he's saying is that he's an atheist because he can't believe in a Higher Power that is such an asshole and is petty enough to get upset when people don't worship him daily.
He cites Job as an example of God being an asshole, not as a personal basis for belief. I may not believe it happened, but I know for a fact that it was written, so it is fair game in a discussion, regardless of belief in the higher power.
...or maybe I should just stick with making retarded one-line comments that are barely on topic.
Vig, ol' buddy - as far as I can tell, it looke like you're replying to me or to yourself. I think you're meaning to point that at Ninjas, but some attributions would help.
A god by definition is perfect. That story helps illustrate that YHWH is not, in my opinion, perfect. Christianity would have you believe that my opinion doesnt matter, but there is no logic or explanation why my definition of perfection shouldn't be the only valid one. To say that YHWH's definition is valid is just as arbitrary as saying mine is.
This is what I mean by personal sovereignty and this is why I don't believe in the existence of a God.
Ninjas, I'll leave you to your beliefs because I think I derailed this thread enough. You do have an interesting point of view so I might PM you later to pick this up.
Ah yes happy holy-days everyone whatever you believe
No, it isn't. The Greek/Roman pantheon, the Norse pantheon, the Japanese pantheon, various other cultural dieties - they're all populated with flawed gods. Your point in this case is with the Judeo-Christian god in specific, not the notion of gods in general. It's a nit, put it needed picking, because...
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That story helps illustrate that YHWH is not, in my opinion, perfect.
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...you're totally cherry-picking your arguments. As I mentioned before, this point only works if you take a literal interpretation of the Bible, and that's something a majority of don't Christians do. If you got Pope Benedict and the college of cardinals in a room and told them God isn't perfect because he let Satan shit all over Job just to prove a point, they'd roll their eyes and send you to the back of the class for not recognizing the "story" (your word) for being exactly that.
If you want to take the point that because God is an asshole, he subsequently isn't perfect and thus doesn't exist, I'd like to hear you discuss it using only the New Testament as context.
As a slight tangent, I want to note that logic can't prove that God does or doesn't exist. Greater minds than ours have tried, be they Thomas Aquinas or Charles Darwin. In the end, it's an opinion based on personal preference; some prefer to look at what's out there and see one thing, while others see something else. The idea of using rational arguments to compel a particular perspective on theism is (IMO) no more effective than using artistic criticism to debate the merits of Einstein's special relativity; it's not the right tool for the job.
God
1.
A: being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
This is the primary definition. If your definition of a god is "Some dude with special powers" then I agree, Einstien, Aristotle and Newton were gods.
Now are you saying that I don't think the God presented in the bible is perfect? I could give a dozen reasons why I find the christian god lacking, but why bother. I could say, for example, "jesus is a stupid name". Thus god would in my definition be imperfect for allowing that name to be chosen for his son.
You say logic can't prove it, but it just did (unless you have something substantial to say. I think you just don't understand my argument). It is typical of people to refer to an "expert" as the source of knowledge. My knowledge comes from thinking. Try it, you'll like it.
The smartest people ever have already thought of everything so why even bother right? That seems to be your attitude. Personally I find that repulsive. People now have more tools than ever to think clearly.
The point I was originally trying to make is that Athiests like myself have no problem celebrating Christmas. And athiests are a tiny minority. I don't think they are making anything happen in national politics.
...Yeah. Okay. I hope I didn't offend anybody. I think I enjoy debate a little too much.
I love how Atheist will call themselve devout.
I love how some people will say "i hate god" or "god is lacking or whatever" and "god doesn't exist" in the same breath.
I love how some people are so busy venting their frustrations towards the concept of the Judeo-Christian God, that they blind themselves from seeing the big picture.
And I love that no matter what you think, we're all in the same boat...it's just a question of who's steering.
Can you all just shut up now. I'm trying to enjoy the holiday as I always have. In peace.
edit: Ninjas: you're a terrible atheist. keep thinking. that's advice, not an insult.
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I love how Atheist will call themselve devout.
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Usually delivered with no small amount of irony, I'd imagine. Or maybe they're just into the dictionary definition of "devout", which includes devotion to things other than religion, which I'm thinkin' a lack of religion will include. It makes sense in popular usage anyway, "something someone is perversely into, to the extent of annoying their friends, family, and Polycount", dontchaknowoldchap.
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I love how some people will say "i hate god" or "god is lacking or whatever" and "god doesn't exist" in the same breath.
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I assume those people are directing their ire at the concept of a god being hateable or lacking. If not, they're not yet in tune with their own beliefs, and should not represent the faithless in general. I for one am not comfortable with the validation of random idiots as the representatives of the Confederation of People Who Have Similar Beliefs To Mine. We're a very loose-knit organization and do not screen our members.
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I love how some people are so busy venting their frustrations towards the concept of the Judeo-Christian God, that they blind themselves from seeing the big picture.
And I love that no matter what you think, we're all in the same boat...it's just a question of who's steering.
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Who's steering? I am fucking steering. Down in back, I can't see through the mirror. Down, Maldammit, lest ye be considered obnoxious in My sight!
Replies
Not to mention that before christianity was invented all people went to hell because they couldnt belive in it?
And i fail to see what it teaches, the bible is some cryptic text that you can define how the hell you please to justify your cause.
Now i dont force you to not belive in it, if you want to go ahead, its your life. But for fucks sake dont come knocking on my door and babbling how i must belive in it!
Christianity is agressive religion, thats what i have against it. It pretty much says that if you belive in some other god you are utterly wrong and you are going to hell for it, no that is fucking selfish.
[/ QUOTE ]Oh, and it has the world's largest online flametard fanbase, Even though other religions(and us atheists) aren't really that far behind if you count relative percentages...
+The mere stupidity of some christians
+ That I find scientific facts more plausible than religious beliefs
= Me Atheist!
If Jebus didn't exist, then I'm cool - If he DID exist, then I'm cool. I don't really care much whether or not some religion is hoax or true; the fact that Christmas is a good thing for thousands of people is enough for me to celebrate it! As such, it doesn't make me say "shush" or anything when people say MERRY CHRISTMAS - I mean, c'mon!!
Are words and sentences like "Merry Christmas" really that big a deal nowadays? When we've got hatemongers such as Jack Thompson word-smearing everyone not agreeing with him, and getting away with it?!
It's Christmas! It's almost more popular than Christianity ITSELF!!
Seriously, This O'Reilly guy (from first post) is a f'ing MORON who, like JT, doesn't have a bloody clue as to what he's talking about.
Banning X-Mas?!? Yeah, right!
(re-hashed in order to make more sense)
It's another thing for private people or enterprises, when you're not acting on the behalf of the state you should be free to choose your beliefs. If Wal Mart chooses to be areligious that should be their prerogative.
HAHAHA!
Christianity is agressive religion, thats what i have against it. It pretty much says that if you belive in some other god you are utterly wrong and you are going to hell for it, no that is fucking selfish.
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Nah. The Dominus Iesus allows for salvation outside literal Christianity. To quote the relevant bits:
"For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation."
And:
"With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God ... comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it in ways known to himself."
You may hear otherwise from this or that group of Protestants, but Catholicism is the oldest and largest Christian faith, and they're onboard with inclusive salvation.
The only thing I see that is stupidly PC, is the "Holiday Tree" issue. What other religion puts up a tree this time of year with balls on it? Right. It's a CHRISTMAS tree. So on that hand, I can understand why the rightwingers are up in arms, and some people who aren't too religous either. I am a devout, I mean DEVOUT Atheist, but there is a little part of me that feels like the traditions I grew up with regarding holidays are getting stripped away in the name of diversity and political correctness. But Oh well, what can you do? Get angry, I suppose. Spout off on a messageboard or to your friends. Nothing really gets accomplished. Just say "Merry Christmas" if you want...or not. Pretty simple really.
I'm a follower of the "If we can't prove nor disprove God he obviously doesn't make a difference therefore I don't care" belief.
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Are you familiar with Pascal's Wager?
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The state should make sure that neither it nor any of its employees publicly endorse or condemn any religion because that's what the constitution means with "separation of church and state". That extends to not allowing display of religious symbols.
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That's not what the Constitution means. It means that the government (a body distinct of its employees) cannot create or interpret legislation that specifically pertains to an organized faith. The people employed by the government can endorse or condemn whatever they like, insofar as they do it as private citizens and not in an official government capacity. The infamous Ten Commandments judge from Alabama, Roy Moore, was perfectly entitled to endorse Christianity on his own time. If he wanted to erect a few stone tablets a la Moses in his own front yard, more power to him. It was his attempt to do so in a public government courthouse that turned it into separation issue, because it suggested a possible religious bias with interpretation of the law.
DEVOUT Atheist
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This phrase makes me giggle.
Religions are based on the idea that being stronger, smarter, having magic powers or begotting a person gives one the right to do whatever you want to that person. Anyone who reads the bible will see that the Christian god is an asshole (read the book of Job or the tower of babel). If I have to suffer for eternity or bow down to someone like that, I would rather suffer. That is why I am an athiest. I reject on logical grounds that a "higher power" can exist.
Yes, god forbid people stop letting religion think for them and do some of it themselves ¬_¬
[edit] (Pun not originally intended :P)
Job suffered at the hands of satan. But since you don't believe there is a God you also don't believe in the devil so it is really likely that no one named Job ever suffered. So why do you bring up examples you beleive to be false?
The book of Job doesn't point out how much of an asshole God is it points out that Satan was wrong. Satan said the only reason Job even likes you is because you give him such nice stuff. Let me at him and I bet he curses your name. Job never did curse God, even after Satan did those horrible things to him. Bad shit happens to good people if you believe in God or not. Just because someone believes in God doesn't mean thier life suddenly is filled full of roses and puppies. In fact the bible and Jesus to a great extend tells you life will get worse, harder and you will want to give up and quit, but don't. I think people get a twisted view of reigion based on a the missbelief that they get to float around on a cloud protected from the crap that happens around them. Sorry to break it to you but you don't get the cloud until after your done here.
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Yes, god forbid people stop letting religion think for them and do some of it themselves ¬_¬
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Right, because everyone that believes in God is a moron who isn't cabable of thinking for themselves. I guess all those really smart people in history who happened to be scientist that believe in God, they where really just being spoon feed thier knowelge from some religous insider book we don't have access to.
I guess all the tallented/knowelgible people on this forum that happen to believe in God, are idiots?
oh and if your atheist then how about removing the words hell, damn, god, gah, geez, bejeezus, and other such religious derivatives from your vocabulary plz?
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Is this directed at me? I'm not an atheist, and even if I were, I would have no problem using "religious" words.
Right, because everyone that believes in God is a moron who isn't cabable of thinking for themselves. I guess all those really smart people in history who happened to be scientist that believe in God, they where really just being spoon feed thier knowelge from some religous insider book we don't have access to.
I guess all the tallented/knowelgible people on this forum that happen to believe in God, are idiots?
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Woot, go go overzealous black-and-white views.
I never said "Christians are all mindless idiots" or anything of the sort. I was commenting on a quote that says, and I re-quote: "...the objection to those things is religious-based, usually.". If you pay attention instead of biting my head off for posing an oppinion, it was never my intention to say anything about christians or religion. Rather, my comment was solely applicable to the person who expressed that view.
"If you remove religion from education people are free to make informed decisions on thier own."
or
"if you take the answer 'because god said so' out of the discussion people can be free to explore further"
Than I agree with that.
I still think however that your statement implied that people belonging to any kind of religion are not thinking for themselves and just take whatever answer is given to them. Sort of "you could just think past your religion for a second we might get some where". Which I feel is wrong, religion is education. If you just show up to church on sunday say some stuff sing some songs and go home, than you don't have a religion you have a country club for people who like ritual. In religion you can have bad teachers who expect you to take whatever they toss out, without ever questioning it. I wouldn't count them among the the true followers of anything resembling a christian religion. A good religious teacher is not afaid of people who ask questions and doesn't try to shame them into believing "just because".
However religious education has its time and its place, which is not in public schools durring school hours.
I have read a lot of books. I read the book of Job without expectation (having no idea what it is about) and that is how I read it. Anyway, even if the Bible was filled with a nice fair god, it wouldn't change my opinion that people are soveriegn and deserve to make their own choices, even if super powerful overlords exist.
To all those not familiar with the book of Job, here is my digest version.
Devil: "Hey God. See that dude who is such a good follower of yours. I bet I can make him turn against you."
God: "I don't think so."
Devil: "Okay, let me try!"
God: "Even though he has been a good follower and never done anything against me, and what you are planning will inflict massive amounts of pain and suffering on him? Sure, I don't see why not."
Later-- Job who had a great family, and lots of money is now broke, alone and with a couple of nasty, very painful diseases.
Job [screaming in the sky]: "God, why have you let this happen to me? I never did anything to deserve this!"
God: "Who are you to question me? I can catch Laviathan on a fish hook! Were you here when I created the world? How about you shut the fuck up!"
Job: "Of course, you are absolutely right."
And God gave Job a ton of money, and he lived happily ever after.
Anybody who thinks I'm exagerating can google the book. I haven't read it in years, but I think this is fairly accurate.
first off, I think it's wrong to judge someone based on their personal religious beliefs.
If christians are starting to feel like they are oppressed then multiply that by 10 and that's how the other side feels (or at least how they feel in the south). There aren't any famous athiest pundants on the TV saying christians should have their citizenship revoked or be kicked out of the country.
so, basically, can't we all just get along?
If I said I was god, and you didn't believe me, would that mean that you think I don't exist? I don't believe anyone's claim that they are god. Simple, see? Unless you think it is unreasonable to believe that there are liars.
I think of the bible as a self help book. It has a number of stories that are illustrative of human nature. Some of the stories are even entertaining.
I'll write extra simple. I don't believe in Gods. Anyone claiming it is a liar. I don't know about the factual accuracy of the bible.
God created the electron so that we may all bathe in the light of internet boobies and weiners...
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I'm going to have that sewn onto a pillow.
with some nice scrollwork or maybe flowers.
To boil down Job even further.
Life is going to suck at times no matter what happens don't turn your back on God.
2) Again to cite Catholicism, the Church does not favor a literal interpretation of the Old Testament. It's allegory and parable, it's not the verbatim word of God. You can be a Catholic and believe in evolution, realize that Noah couldn't put all those animals in one boat and that Jonah probably didn't get swallowed whole by a whale. The tales of Job and the Tower of Babel are not any different, and (IMO) not a terribly compelling reason to take issue with a divine creator.
Edited for Verm =P
He cites Job as an example of God being an asshole, not as a personal basis for belief. I may not believe it happened, but I know for a fact that it was written, so it is fair game in a discussion, regardless of belief in the higher power.
...or maybe I should just stick with making retarded one-line comments that are barely on topic.
Damn you!
Damn you all to hell!
This is what I mean by personal sovereignty and this is why I don't believe in the existence of a God.
Ah yes happy holy-days everyone whatever you believe
A god by definition is perfect.
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No, it isn't. The Greek/Roman pantheon, the Norse pantheon, the Japanese pantheon, various other cultural dieties - they're all populated with flawed gods. Your point in this case is with the Judeo-Christian god in specific, not the notion of gods in general. It's a nit, put it needed picking, because...
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That story helps illustrate that YHWH is not, in my opinion, perfect.
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...you're totally cherry-picking your arguments. As I mentioned before, this point only works if you take a literal interpretation of the Bible, and that's something a majority of don't Christians do. If you got Pope Benedict and the college of cardinals in a room and told them God isn't perfect because he let Satan shit all over Job just to prove a point, they'd roll their eyes and send you to the back of the class for not recognizing the "story" (your word) for being exactly that.
If you want to take the point that because God is an asshole, he subsequently isn't perfect and thus doesn't exist, I'd like to hear you discuss it using only the New Testament as context.
r.
God
1.
A: being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
This is the primary definition. If your definition of a god is "Some dude with special powers" then I agree, Einstien, Aristotle and Newton were gods.
Now are you saying that I don't think the God presented in the bible is perfect? I could give a dozen reasons why I find the christian god lacking, but why bother. I could say, for example, "jesus is a stupid name". Thus god would in my definition be imperfect for allowing that name to be chosen for his son.
You say logic can't prove it, but it just did (unless you have something substantial to say. I think you just don't understand my argument). It is typical of people to refer to an "expert" as the source of knowledge. My knowledge comes from thinking. Try it, you'll like it.
My knowledge comes from thinking. Try it, you'll like it.
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Ah, is that how you're going to be about it? In that case, I'll second Ror's motion.
The point I was originally trying to make is that Athiests like myself have no problem celebrating Christmas. And athiests are a tiny minority. I don't think they are making anything happen in national politics.
...Yeah. Okay. I hope I didn't offend anybody. I think I enjoy debate a little too much.
I love how some people will say "i hate god" or "god is lacking or whatever" and "god doesn't exist" in the same breath.
I love how some people are so busy venting their frustrations towards the concept of the Judeo-Christian God, that they blind themselves from seeing the big picture.
And I love that no matter what you think, we're all in the same boat...it's just a question of who's steering.
Can you all just shut up now. I'm trying to enjoy the holiday as I always have. In peace.
edit: Ninjas: you're a terrible atheist. keep thinking. that's advice, not an insult.
I love how Atheist will call themselve devout.
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Usually delivered with no small amount of irony, I'd imagine. Or maybe they're just into the dictionary definition of "devout", which includes devotion to things other than religion, which I'm thinkin' a lack of religion will include. It makes sense in popular usage anyway, "something someone is perversely into, to the extent of annoying their friends, family, and Polycount", dontchaknowoldchap.
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I love how some people will say "i hate god" or "god is lacking or whatever" and "god doesn't exist" in the same breath.
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I assume those people are directing their ire at the concept of a god being hateable or lacking. If not, they're not yet in tune with their own beliefs, and should not represent the faithless in general. I for one am not comfortable with the validation of random idiots as the representatives of the Confederation of People Who Have Similar Beliefs To Mine. We're a very loose-knit organization and do not screen our members.
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I love how some people are so busy venting their frustrations towards the concept of the Judeo-Christian God, that they blind themselves from seeing the big picture.
And I love that no matter what you think, we're all in the same boat...it's just a question of who's steering.
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Who's steering? I am fucking steering. Down in back, I can't see through the mirror. Down, Maldammit, lest ye be considered obnoxious in My sight!