Well, closeups will only happen during cutscenes (unless the camera control sucks...). So it's a controlled environment and you're going to load special assets anyway (e.g. the voice samples).
I meant that various PS2 RPGs have models of different details for different scenes (cutscene, field, battle). In FFX, for example, the closeups use much more detailled models than the other scenes. Maybe hires was he wrong word.
Besides, I'm not so sure if simply tesselating the triangulated ingame mesh for closeups will produce good results.
Thanks for informing me about this stuff. Ya know, how PS2 games are made n' all. It's about time I figured it out after 5+ years doing it every day really. Plus I must have dreamt the knowledge I had that realtime tesselation was something developers were looking into. Or perhaps the PS3 3D engine coder from X co. I was talking to in the pub last saturday night was making it up when he told me they had it up and running. Yeah, that must be it. Silly ol' me.
Jeesh, Daz, I know you know about that, I'm just explaining why I'm thinking what I'm thinking. I know realtime tesselation is possible but I also know what happens when you throw subD at a triangulated mesh.
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I know you know about that, I'm just explaining why I'm thinking what I'm thinking.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just not the terminology? There is a Glossary of terms on the main polycount page.
As far as Tesselation goes, it's far more likely on the Playstation 2 than Playstation 3. Purely from a hardware stance. Sony designed the EE with all of those fancy CG-Style features; so it could probably achieve something similar to toy-story in graphics level, but you try to texture anything and your looking at far mroe basic rendering.
I mean you add to this nvidia's support for tesselated surfaces, i.e. there is none. So you either do it software or not at all. You might be able to do it via the vertex shader system but never tried so not sure. In any case would be more hassle than worth. It's far more likely that surfaces have mipmap normal maps with anti-aliasing.
Given that's something the G70 does has support for. Look bloody awesome too in games like Half-Life 2 and Doom 3. Add that to a higher polygon mesh similar to current console games like 8-10,000 polygons and your definately looking at something similar to what your seeing there.
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I don't think there is any doubt anymore that the Killzone 2 video was pre-rendered. We had an entire messy thread on that back around E3 before you were around, so probably best dropped!
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fair enough. forum I talked about it in, everyone thought I was just a crazy and/or jelous nintendo fanboy.
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Yeah well, bad day trying to final a game sorry. Probably overreacted.
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That reminds me something, but probably best not to ask on the open forum.
i discovered that one too, but it is in some shitty streaming microsoft format that my player refuses to accept. ah well, hopefully it will show up elsewhere in a better format.
Daz: couldn't it be silhouette culling (i don't know the proper name, but i've read an article on it a while back) on the head?
I don't know if you can even get it to just work on one part of a model, but i'm just reminding everyone it exists, and then i'll let the more knowledgable types debate it (heatedly )
No Raiden in there. What is in there is a clip of the Killzone 2 video being played on a pc in a media player whilst explaining what a cellprocessor is! Ahaha.
It's slightly better quality than the previous video.
Raven, who really gives a shit wether it's hardware tesselation, software tesselation, or simply a very high resolution model? You continue wanking whilst impressing us with the finer points of the capabilities of the G70. But the actual fucking point is, as I touched on earlier but people still wanna argue, that it's pretty bloody amazing that we have reached the point that we can't tell. That polygons can be sub pixel in a closeup:
Ok first off, seems like I was acting like a bit of a dick the other day reading back through this. Almost done crunching though and who knows, I might even turn back into a rational human being when it's over.
Secondly, that's actually a really good point KDR about how to mathematically subdivide a tri. I've been doing some digging around and it seems it isn't that big a deal. Grab this demo and hit W for wireframe to see one algorithm in action. Neat stuff:
But the obvious question remains. Will a model smooth in the same way in realtime as when done by an algorithm in a CG package? Seems like a big hurdle.
Having said all of that, I got my mits on a small part of the above video in very very high resolution today and good quality, and guess what? I see polygons So I'm eating my words there. They are however still, extremely dense models. The gun barrel circumference has gotta be 36 sides or more. Crazy. The higher resolution movie reveals some even more interesting stuff to me too though. For instance I'm almost certain there seems to be some kind of realtime ambient occlusion in his face, looking at the darkeneing going on in the nooks and crannies, and it really doesn't appear to be baked. However, maybe that isn't such a big deal either: http://download.developer.nvidia.com/dev...dynamic_amb_occ . I only have the movie as a huge video locally sorry, and not an online link, but I'll grab some stills If anyones interested.
Stills would be awesome, grab one near the beginning when Snake walks through the hole in the destroied wall, the camera gets rather near there and i could swear i saw hes ear polygon edges. And grab some when he is inside the building, if comparing those shots i think it would be very possible to see if the density of the model has changed.
BTW in MGS game i think its feasible to toy with very high poly heads because 90% of the characters you see are the generic enemies who wear a helmet, goggles and mask.
some attachments for the nintendo revolution controller seem to be a gamecube type controller, a add-on that makes the controller into a handgun, another is a steering wheel for racing games.
If anyone is interested, at the end of the MGS4 trailer there is a shot of rubber duckies dropping into water. Here's where that comes from: http://graphics.ethz.ch/%7Ebrunoh/s2005.html
What the implications are for including it in the trailer, we can only guess.
FatAssasin - the rubber ducks were one of the PS3 'tech' videos that were shown at E3. The MGS4 trailer showed that, as well as a Killzone video, running on the 'media player' or sorts, on Otacon's screen.
I don't think it's meant to mean anything in particular, though.
Kinda bumping this thread a bit, but I didnt really want to have to make a new thread to post this article. It was posted on penny-arcade by tycho. It is one of the most insightful articles about the bussiness side of the game industry, and nintendo in particular, that I have read in recent memory.
Anyways, read it. It certainly gave me a MUCH better idea of why nintendo is doing the things they do and how that will yield them a profit. Not to mention its insights on the behaviors and types of gamers.
Blimey, look at that nose, you'd think they'd at least try and hide the edges. It's like it's 1995. Disgraceful.
Apparently everything is modelled as if its a full shot, for instance no models are just torsos or whatever, even Otacon is a full body despite only seeing the top half;
"Switching to a scence where Snake is having a conversation with Otacon through the small Metal Gear MK-II robot's LCD screen, Kojima joked about the screen. He then zoomed in to the image on the screen, revealing that Otacon and his room environment on the LCD screen are actually rendered in real time, just like the rest of the trailer. To prove it, Kojima played around with the light source for Otacon's shadow. "We've added a grid on top of it to give it the look of a realistic LCD screen," he said. "Otacon will come out as a full [polygon] model in the game. It's not like we've only created his upper body."
Even his cig is bent, while remaining smooth - I how many polys they have in order to do this stuff, certainly sounds like they have a huge budget if they're doing full characters when they're not even visible.
Replies
I meant that various PS2 RPGs have models of different details for different scenes (cutscene, field, battle). In FFX, for example, the closeups use much more detailled models than the other scenes. Maybe hires was he wrong word.
Besides, I'm not so sure if simply tesselating the triangulated ingame mesh for closeups will produce good results.
I know you know about that, I'm just explaining why I'm thinking what I'm thinking.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just not the terminology? There is a Glossary of terms on the main polycount page.
As far as Tesselation goes, it's far more likely on the Playstation 2 than Playstation 3. Purely from a hardware stance. Sony designed the EE with all of those fancy CG-Style features; so it could probably achieve something similar to toy-story in graphics level, but you try to texture anything and your looking at far mroe basic rendering.
I mean you add to this nvidia's support for tesselated surfaces, i.e. there is none. So you either do it software or not at all. You might be able to do it via the vertex shader system but never tried so not sure. In any case would be more hassle than worth. It's far more likely that surfaces have mipmap normal maps with anti-aliasing.
Given that's something the G70 does has support for. Look bloody awesome too in games like Half-Life 2 and Doom 3. Add that to a higher polygon mesh similar to current console games like 8-10,000 polygons and your definately looking at something similar to what your seeing there.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there is any doubt anymore that the Killzone 2 video was pre-rendered. We had an entire messy thread on that back around E3 before you were around, so probably best dropped!
[/ QUOTE ]
fair enough. forum I talked about it in, everyone thought I was just a crazy and/or jelous nintendo fanboy.
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah well, bad day trying to final a game sorry. Probably overreacted.
[/ QUOTE ]
That reminds me something, but probably best not to ask on the open forum.
They actually show some stuff at the end, including a jab at Killzone 2, I'd think
Wish there was a higher res video, though.
btw. is raiden in there?
I don't know if you can even get it to just work on one part of a model, but i'm just reminding everyone it exists, and then i'll let the more knowledgable types debate it (heatedly
It's slightly better quality than the previous video.
Raven, who really gives a shit wether it's hardware tesselation, software tesselation, or simply a very high resolution model? You continue wanking whilst impressing us with the finer points of the capabilities of the G70. But the actual fucking point is, as I touched on earlier but people still wanna argue, that it's pretty bloody amazing that we have reached the point that we can't tell. That polygons can be sub pixel in a closeup:
Secondly, that's actually a really good point KDR about how to mathematically subdivide a tri. I've been doing some digging around and it seems it isn't that big a deal. Grab this demo and hit W for wireframe to see one algorithm in action. Neat stuff:
http://users.belgacom.net/xvox/
But the obvious question remains. Will a model smooth in the same way in realtime as when done by an algorithm in a CG package? Seems like a big hurdle.
Having said all of that, I got my mits on a small part of the above video in very very high resolution today and good quality, and guess what? I see polygons
BTW in MGS game i think its feasible to toy with very high poly heads because 90% of the characters you see are the generic enemies who wear a helmet, goggles and mask.
What the implications are for including it in the trailer, we can only guess.
I don't think it's meant to mean anything in particular, though.
http://lostgarden.com/2005/09/nintendos-genre-innovation-strategy.html
Anyways, read it. It certainly gave me a MUCH better idea of why nintendo is doing the things they do and how that will yield them a profit. Not to mention its insights on the behaviors and types of gamers.
http://home.comcast.net/~dpattenden/images/mgs1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dpattenden/images/mgs2.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dpattenden/images/mgs3.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dpattenden/images/mgs4.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dpattenden/images/mgs5.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dpattenden/images/mgs6.jpg
Apparently everything is modelled as if its a full shot, for instance no models are just torsos or whatever, even Otacon is a full body despite only seeing the top half;
"Switching to a scence where Snake is having a conversation with Otacon through the small Metal Gear MK-II robot's LCD screen, Kojima joked about the screen. He then zoomed in to the image on the screen, revealing that Otacon and his room environment on the LCD screen are actually rendered in real time, just like the rest of the trailer. To prove it, Kojima played around with the light source for Otacon's shadow. "We've added a grid on top of it to give it the look of a realistic LCD screen," he said. "Otacon will come out as a full [polygon] model in the game. It's not like we've only created his upper body."
Even his cig is bent, while remaining smooth - I how many polys they have in order to do this stuff, certainly sounds like they have a huge budget if they're doing full characters when they're not even visible.
Otacon will come out as a full [polygon] model in the game. It's not like we've only created his upper body.
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I think what he means is that you can see whole Otacon in the final game in some scenes.
They are so miniscule, and I doubt you'll be that close in real gameplay situations.
By far, it's visuals blow away anything in this current generation of games, and easily shakes it up with Gears of War and Wardevil.
Still impressive by all means, imo.
that's a download from germany though. i guess it will show up sooner or later on many sites.
what's that desktop they're showing at the end of the movie? skinned windows or some variant of linux/unix? looks weird.
Oh this was from 2 months ago nm