Daz: Those people make me sick. They're on nobody's side but their own. I don't understand how they can possibly "Thank God" for a bombing where many died... they really need psychological help, and preferably prison.
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from what people say here, the question is are terrorist led to hatred of western world by personal opinion or are they following the herd?
honestly i dont know the education and history of every
terrorist out there, but at least from what I know of what happens is middle east islamic countries, people are being brainwashed from age 0 to hate. cartoon shows for kids show an american and an israeli waking up, picking up their guns and going to hunt little poor arab kids. This is absord, but absolutely true. you won't believe the propaganda these people are under since they are kids. so, what do you expect?
terror organizations pay young palestine women to give birth to kids for them. the mother gets a lot of money, and the baby is handed out as a tool for the organization. is she acting out of education? religeon? or is she just poor and needs money? in any case, you end up with 5 years old kids run around carrying bombs and you can imagine the rest. education isnt even a factor here.
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i feel a lot of this is blown out of porportion.. i lived with a palestinian for several years and learned much from him about the culture.. and he said its a very small part of the population that are actually extremist and they are looked down upon, because of them they face so much hardship on their day to day lives..
we lived in New Orleans.. i was an artist and he was a poet and it was your basic bohemian type place... he was very reserved and never bothered anyone.. one thing that happend to us that really hit home with me as something these people go through is when we went out for some halal food.. there was a group of israeli men eating there and one asked where my roommate was from and he said the westbank.. then my roommate wad picked up and thrown out into the street and beat, i was held back and they told if i did anything i was next.. they were screaming at him.. i couldnt understand anything and was just so shocked that all this was going on.. i felt so bad.. but he said after the incident that he would rather get harassed a few isolated times here than daily in palesitine.. he still has no hate for israelis and refuses to stoop to that level.. but it seems like a cycle.. these conflits breed hate.. london was bombed and now our leaders can use that as fuel for hate againt a people reguardless of their involment in extremism.. and when we retaliate on someones son or brother or mother they learn to hate us.. its pretty fucked up and a shame that EVERYONE is acting barbaric..
I don't hate them, I pity them for being so close-minded and ignorant. In fact, their followers are probably exactly the type of people who are easily "brainwashed" by someone with a strong will and "vision", and full of petty anger probably due to lack of fulfillment in their own lives.
Ok well from what I hear: "Ah yes, an organisation run by a Rev. Phelps. A real fruitbat. Hes currently going around with his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren protesting at the funerals of servicemen killed in Iraq and Afghanistan too. He believes the US is being punished by god because a church that he runs was fired bombed a few years ago."
Apologies for upsetting people with the link. It really isn't relevant. it's just some ( clearly ) insane crackpot who needs to be behind some very sturdy bars. I guess my point was that there really are some nutters out there in this world from all religions.
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From what I can recall upon the Middle Eastern countries, the majority of fanatics that follow leaders blindly and stupidly believe that what they are doing is right, but only because those leaders told them as such. Many are illiterate and havent actually read the Koran, so its a lot easier to inject ideas by distorting certain views about Muslim faith.
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You're right in saying that many are fairly uneducated, you are quite far off in saying that they are illiterate and haven't read the Koran. I think you'll be very hard pressed to find any Muslim who follows the belief more than semi-seriously who hasn't read the Koran from cover to cover in their language. Many fanatics memorize much of the Koran by heart - not because they are illiterate and can't just pick it up and read it, but because their belief in its holiness is so strong that they memorize it. I don't think you will ever find an Islamic extremist who doesn't spend hours upon hours every day reading pages from the Koran.
They are not stupid, and told that 'The Koran says this' and blindly believe it. Much of every religious text is ambigous to a non-believer, but crystal-clear to someone who has grown up believing in a certain interpretation. Plenty of Christians out there believe that homosexuality is a sin because of what the Bible says, along with what they were taught by their parents, teachers or the local priest.
I'm certainly not defending the bombings in London and I'd be surprised if anyone got that impression from what I wrote here. I'm just saying that calling such terrorists ignorant, stupid or illiterate is in itself pretty near-sighted.
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From what I can recall upon the Middle Eastern countries, the majority of fanatics that follow leaders blindly and stupidly believe that what they are doing is right, but only because those leaders told them as such. Many are illiterate and haven’t actually read the Koran, so it’s a lot easier to inject ideas by distorting certain views about Muslim faith.
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i dont think this is an occurance just reserved for the middle east,the same can be said about many folks here in the states
every country has its ignorant and educated and people who exploit them for it.
I just wanted to add a few words. Firstly, I live only 10 minutes away from one of the explosion sites. I was extremely worried yesterday and phoning around like mad trying to contact my family members and friends. Unfortunately, there were problems getting in contact because there were problems with the telephone network. Thankfully, after several hours, I had managed to contact all members of my family and friends and everybody was ok and safe.
I would also like to add that I am an extremely devout Muslim, devout in modern day dictionary meaning a fundamentalist/extremist. Now before everybody makes a run for cover. I can affirm that I am not such a person and what happened yesterday was extremely heinous and could have only been conceived by some sick and twisted nut case/s. I would like to add that IF it was Muslims not all Muslims are like this. Every group/race/ideology/religion have their fair share of extremists. Just like those Christian fundamentalists who blew up an abortion clinic in the US, but that does not mean all Christians accept those fundamentalists understanding of Christianity. Yes, Christians dont agree with abortions, but not all will go out and blow up clinics. Likewise, with Muslims too, yes, it is a fact that there are many Muslims in Britain who are extremely angered with Tony Blairs Stance on the Iraq War and the way in which he has dealt with it. However, that does not mean that they agree to the extremists understanding of how to resolve this situation, i.e. blowing up innocent human beings.
The extremists who did this, and IF they did this do not represent Islam, although many extremist westerners will jump at the chance of saying that they do, this however, is untrue. Many British Muslims are British nationals, and consider the UK to be their home. You have to remember We British Muslims were also targets. We also use those train stations to commute to work. In fact, two of the stations are close to huge Muslim populations, which were Aldgate and Edgware Road stations. In fact, 1 in 10 people in London is a Muslim. Clearly, we exist and clearly, the terrorists have made no distinction as to who they were going to attack. Everybody who chooses to reside in London or on British soil is a target...Muslim or Non-Muslim and these extremists are well aware that Muslims do live in London and a big majority too.
Furthermore, I would like to add that the media and especially Tony Blair have handled this really badly with their assumptions. Thus far, there has been no concrete evidence as to who committed these barbaric atrocities, and already Muslims are being made the guilty party. The worrying this about this is that there will be extremist westerners who will go around looking to beat-up a Muslims just like what happened when 9/11 happened. Ok, there have been reports of some website with a written confession of a sub-branch Al-Qaeda group claiming to have committed these atrocities. Now come on everybody, we all here are educated people and should know very well what some website says does not constitute to being hard evidence, in fact it means nothing because anybody could have written it. Furthermore, has anybody here even read what it says? Can any of you even read Arabic? All the Quranic verses that were used all had grammatical mistakes. Now I am pretty sure most of you people here are people of logic. Now try to understand this. If supposedly, these were Muslim extremists, these are people who are extremely careful about how they use the words from the quran like all Muslims are since it is a sin to do so incorrectly. Now although these extremists dont properly understand the contextual use of the Quranic verses and apply their own interpretations, nether the less these people still show a great deal of respect to the quran because it is a sin to mistreat it and that means writing quranic verses incorrectly. Now since this statement contains many verses showing grammatical mistakes. What does this tell us? A great deal because it could not have been Muslims who wrote it because a Muslim would not be stupid enough to make such mistakes because it is a grave sin, and these terrorists consider themselves to be pious people (my ass), and would not make such a sinful mistake as that.
In addition, Tony Blair claiming that it was Al-Qaeda shows how this individual makes such rash judgements based on flimsy evidences and this truly exposes his incompetence to being a leader. A good leader does not make decisions or assertions based on weak evidences. But rather waits for the right moment.
I am not trying to defend these extremists but I am telling you that that statement was not written by a Muslim. Lets wait for concrete evidence before we start placing a name to the atrocities. Even though it may be obvious to you, it is beside the point. This is not how things are done in any civilised nation. Establishing proof is the most important thing to do first. If it is established that Muslims were involved then all true and law abiding Muslims will condemn this, but this does not mean that Muslims will accept this as serving as an excuse to invade more countries. This is not the way to resolve this situation. Blair unfortunately, is probably over the moon about what has happened because he will probably think this will further his stance to keeping British troops in Iraq. I would really love to see him send his children to that war. In fact, I believe that it should be made compulsory on all future leaders to send their children to any wars that they issue.
Anyway, lets all pray for all those that were killed or injured and hope they make a fast recovery.
Like I said, I wanted to see how the UK would react. The world is quick to judge America, but let's see how other nations stand when given the spotlight.
You know what I saw recently while reading some articles? Taliban. Now that's a word I haven't heard in so long. It feels like 2002 all over again. Funny how your mind is led to change focus over time. So how is everyone?
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Every group/race/ideology/religion have their fair share of extremists.
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I'd like to think that everyone here is bright enough to not blame all muslims for the actions of some, just like they don't blame eachother or themselfes by the crimes commited by or in their country.
The fact that muslims etc were beaten up or anything after 9/11 shows that the west isn't really much better. There's extremists everywhere.
I remember an incident i saw on TV about germany some years ago, were i think catholic parents were throwing stones at 6-10 year old kids on their way to school, just because they were protestants or something. It went to the point were police had to escort the kids around that street. How sad is that. You'd think something like that couldn't happen nowadays, in a civilizated and educated world, and still.
There's so many morons in this world, just because people from around your area happen to be the ones blowing up things right now and getting all the attention, it shouldn't say anything about the people there. Spain has had the ETA terrorists forever, and even people here in canada know them and make jokes to me about them.
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You know what I saw recently while reading some articles? Taliban. Now that's a word I haven't heard in so long. It feels like 2002 all over again. Funny how your mind is led to change focus over time. So how is everyone?
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Hi ElysiumGX,
Everybody that I know is fine and well, but are in a state of shock that it could actually have happened to us Brits. However, those who actually lost loved ones or who were injured, only god knows and my heart really goes out to those people.
Its moments like this seeing all those people covered in blood I really feel like going to Tony Blair and giving him an earful because I really believe he should be held accountable for this atrocity too, but even I must control that emotion no matter what my personal opinions are. Believe it or not I actually understand when non-Muslims are angered at every Muslim they see simply because this is a natural human emotional response to react in this way in situations like these. However, it is a wrong response. In these types of situations, we should not think with our emotions but apply rationality, and unfortunately, emotions easily override rational thought.
Either way, I would really like to see people try to calm themselves down, even though it will be tough. And just keep their thoughts more focused on those that have died and those who have been injured, and if possible seek out those injured or who have lost loved ones and see if there is anything you can do to help ease their pain, like helping them do the chores or whatever I dont know what exactly, but I am sure you get what I mean, just be good people. Rather then focusing on who may have done this. There is no clear evidence as to who it was and even if it does turn out to be Muslims that does not give people the justification to start going out seeking any Tom Dick and Harry Muslim on the street and beat the crap out of them. Our focus should be on capturing those involved and bringing them to justice. I mean me for example, I was a little paranoid about going out today because if you were to see me in person, I would probably fit your bill of what you think a Muslim extremist would look like because I have a beard and the whole shebang to go along with it. But I am just like most of you guys probably, I love 3D, 2D art, I love playing football even friggin support England in every world and European game. Only difference is that I am a Muslim, which should not be a problem.
I will admit that I really do despise the current British government because of its policies. However, that does not mean that I am going to go around and start blowing up people, I have many non-Muslim friends. In fact because I am from an art background, the majority of my friends and even childhood friends are non-Muslims, and I could never imagine bringing any harm to them.
Anyway, lets just pray that the problems that exist in the world today one day are resolved and we can all live happily ever after. I know its a long shot but I can have hope at least and pray for the best. Positive things only happen to positive thinkers.
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Aw c'mon Vig! The guy was an UTTER fucktard. I dont think the story was reported in any other way than factual?! His nationality was mentioned to stress the point that he was a visitor.
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Yeah yeah so maybe I was reading into it a bit
But there is alot of talking down to America in international press, like they have an axe to grind. Maybe this wasn't the strongest example of it, and it more than likely doesn't exsist in this article but it does happen more times than I like to read. Of course Americans always talk trash about everyone outside of our boarders, especially our neighbors to the north, so I should be the last guy to be flaggin' this =P
So, what do we do about it? Hunt them down and kill them or put them behind bars? Or do we try to understand them and their reasoning and negotiate with them...
you can't go for the second option, trying to negotiate or even just talk to understand them would be seen as giving up, and nobody wants to be marked as the loser.
There's always a point during social diferences where it's easier to be an ass than go back and try to fix things. Think we all have been there
This is the fundamental problem that nobody wants to be seen as the loser. Both sides are far too arrogant and pig-headed to want to try and understand each other, to understand what makes each other tick and why they do what they do. If violence is met with violence you will only see more violence and there is never a victor in situations like these. That is a complete illusionary frame of mind, which only exists to serve as a method of motivating that person that they are incapable of losing no matter what they are hit with, and all you will see is the continuous struggle against each other using violent means to achieve nothing but the deaths of innocence from both sides.
In fact in my opinion the one who will be seen first in making an attempt to negotiate will actually be seen as the heroes and the honourable ones in this situation. So far both sides are despicable and should be ashamed of themselves in choosing violence first or should I say the only alternative.
Last night on the news they had someone who is a former terrorist who was caught and was in jail for a few years. He said that the biggest deterrent was "life as usual". Basically he was saying that after something happens all the increased security, the patriot act here in the US, all these reactions that occur that are supposedly to prevent terrorist attacks are actually what terrorists want to have happen. But if we instead just go on with life as usual, show that no matter what these people do they won't be able to have an effect, will cause more frustration to the terrorists, and was why this guy stopped do whatever it was that he was doing.
The initial reaction is always "they hurt me so I gotta hurt them", but in the end we seem to hurt ourselves more. I have a friend who is a US citizen who has family in Kuwait and on her way back from visiting them she was detained, searched and questioned for no other reason than how she looked. I heard on the news the other day about a guy who was born and raised in Springfield IL who was handcuffed and questioned for 6 hours, multiple times, just because he was visiting family in Iraq. The whole patriot act, homeland security, it makes me feel less secure knowing what these allow the government to do, making them more of a threat than the terrorists. One person causes problems, and everyone in punished.
I don't know if diong nothing is really an answer, seems like no matter what happens we lose our personal freedoms, friends or family, or both. Like trying to pick the best of the bad ideas.
sorry about this semi side rant, seeing that last night just kinda got me thinking.
Thanks for the words FEMTO. If it's any consolation I am very sure that most people on this board and in the UK understand the difference between muslims such as yourself and militant fundamentalist extremists. I hope though that you have never nor will never experience unpleasent situations due to ignorance, and I pray that there are no 'backlashes' of any kind from right wing extremists or others.
However, I strongly disagree with your suggestion that Blair is probably 'over the moon' about horrific atrocities on British soil like these. That's a fairly outrageous statement. I totally understand that you despise the man and the government due to their actions, but call me old fashioned, I genuinely believe that it is utter nonsense to suggest that he could be 'happy' about British blood being splashed up London buildings in such a brutal fashion, no matter what political gains you think that might get him. And no, I'm certainly not defending his decision to send troops to Iraq. Never for one moment did I think that war was the 'right' thing to do. Even though I think he made the wrong decision, I don't believe that he had an easy time making that decision either. As for wether or not Al Quaeda are responsible, I empathize with your concern that it has not really been proven or claimed yet, and I definitely agree that it is very dangerous to jump the gun. But If it turns out that they are responsible will it really be such a big suprise? I don't think its a website that it is making people believe they are responsible. They are simply for better or worse, the most known, obvious choice as a perpetrator for an act like this in current times. IRA? No, that makes no sense at all. I suspect perhaps ( and please do not be offended by this. If I have it wrong tell me. But you mentioned several times the high population of muslims around the bomb sites ) you might have a hard time dealing with the fact that an organisation like Al Quaeda could consider targets that would include muslims, but I think you're overestimating their thought process, and I am sure many muslims died on 9/11.
To get back to the innocent victims for a moment, just to put some faces to all of this, think of the people that are still unnacounted for. Reading this brought a lump to my throat:
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So, what do we do about it? Hunt them down and kill them or put them behind bars? Or do we try to understand them and their reasoning and negotiate with them...
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[humor]
We load up busses full of crash test dummies dressed up in thier sunday best, or perhaps nuns. Park these busses in the middle of some deserted area and wait for the terrorist to run out of pink squishy, C4 wrapped, talking bombs.
Or we do what Bush did and move the war from our front porch to the sand lot down the street. It doesn't mean the fight is over just changed locations. It didn't take them long to bring the bag of flaming dog crap back to our porch, ring the bell and run. Tag you're it so to speak... What a lovely game we are playing, so who do I talk to about getting a subsitue, I'm getting tired coach...
Alt-F4, nope the war is still going on...
Alt-F4, nope the war is still going on...
Alt-F4, nope the war is still going on...
Alt-F4, nope the war is still going on...
Damn windows it's all Gates fault. There, is everyone happy we have a face to hate.
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More evidence religion is sick. Im all for personal spirituality, (even if i cant spell it)
In a way, our country had this attack on the cards for a while , we did go and invade another country for there natural resorses after all .... how long til our aliance invades Iran? Hang on , wasnt China on the axis of evil list? thats gona be a fun one :S
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So, what do we do about it? Hunt them down and kill them or put them behind bars? Or do we try to understand them and their reasoning and negotiate with them...
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Well, hunting them down and killing them is against the laws of some countries. The act was a criminal act, therefore they must be tried as such. And one less dead terrorist = 1 less "martyr".
Try to understand them? Of course we need to understand them. Ignoring why they are doing it is a stupid policy.
Negotiating? No, you cannot negotiate, because that shows that they get what they want, leading more people to adopt the same methods.
But understanding why they are doing it? Yes. If they have 100,000 reasons for doing what they are doing, and just 1 of those reasons is a GENUINE grievence that real people can identify with, then we should be looking at it. You would never tell them that you agreed with it, you would never make a deal, you would never negotiate.
Its intresting,I went out with a friend who goes to university in London last night.
He said since these attacks happened theres a whole new feeling in the air as he visited the place during the day yesterday.
Before these attacks you were always asking yourself "when will we be attacked?,where will we be attacked?,will it be chemicals or exsplosives?.will it be suicide bombers or remote mines? etc"....but since its happened theres a whole new feeling of relaxation,feeling safe and pretty secure.Becuase now at least what many people thought was inevitable at some point has happened.
they want an islamic state. kick out the government and the royals and have an islamic theocracy. no more video games, women in their skimpies, no music, not even chess, NO FUN! all men grow beards, all women wear burkas. etc etc. why do you think the average afghan was so pleased when we kicked the taliban out?
I can see this getting to the point where it is like the movie Brazil. Where an explosion would go off a few meters away from you and no one would care.
One thing I hear a lot is the Muslims want to change how we do things here (western world). NO, they want us to stop what we are doing in their country. Big difference.
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they want an islamic state. kick out the government and the royals and have an islamic theocracy. no more video games, women in their skimpies, no music, not even chess, NO FUN! all men grow beards, all women wear burkas. etc etc. why do you think the average afghan was so pleased when we kicked the taliban out?
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Thats actually a big misconception about what these people are actually after. Frankly, I am not even to sure as to how that was conceived in the first place. The reality is that they have no interest with the west and a desire to turn the western world into an Islamic state is false. Funny thing is that an Islamic state does not exist today. There are countries that have 90% + majority Muslim populations, however, there is not a single supposed Muslim country that applies Islamic shriah. Even the Taliban were not implementing it either. I would love to see some prove me wrong on this.
However, what these extremists are after is to see the removal of western presence from their countries, not to see the western world converted to Islam.
In regards to banning games and such I think you need to read up on Islamic ijtihad before you make a statement like that! nuff said. In fact the Islamic system is not as archaic as you would like to think. It is a well known fact that the Islamic world has contributed a great deal to the world and at the height of the Islamic empire it was a great place of learning and there was a great interest in the pursuit of modernization. Ironically, the Islamic world is the one that brought the western world out of their dark ages .many western scholars would flock to the Islamic empire to learn the many new things that were being taught their. The greatest problem for the Muslim world today is the absence of the Islamic state because there is no application of Islamic shariah. Furthermore, the Islamic world has grown to become extremely arrogant. They were the teachers of the west and now the student has surpassed the teacher and the teacher is far too arrogant to be taught by the student. Arrogance is truly bliss.
Sort of an unrelated side point but I've been reading up on the middle ages a lot lately, specifically in the area of castle warfare and a subject that comes up often is how much anglo castle design learned from islamic castle design.
I guess I'm just adding to Femto's underlying point that really, we don't know much about Islam beyond our media indoctrinated racist jokes about them being a bunch of towel wearing idiots that are just angry at us for having more than them.
That said, I'm not willing to back up anything else you are saying Fem, I just thought you would appreciate that some of us also have read up enough on the past to come across examples of Islamic inteligence that support your point that our media is just as one sided as any other sides media!
arabs invented most of modern mathematics and also did a lot of astronomy. 'rigel' for example is an arab name...
i'm not a complete moron. honest. i've read several claims that these looneys want a global islamic state or at least to throw out the west in the mid-east, but having an islamic state was one of that nutbar abu hamza's ideals.
I wish people would blow themselves up for meaningful purposes like killing all telemarketers. Hell, why do they bomb abortion clinics and animal labs when data collection agencies and spammers are much more deserving of a quick and firey death?
sundance: I keep it because it's probably one of the first custom titles handed out since the new boards launched even though it was just a joke by some mod.
Well. I actually missed the events in London the day they occurred, I was distracted by going to the doctor... no surprise there. (Oh, and it was for my son's regular treatment... my daughter is doing MUCH better, thanks, although not home yet...)
Oh, the humanity. Events like this baffle me. I realize that I lead a sheltered, fairly insular suburban American existence, so extreme acts such as the London bombs strike me as coming from another planet. "The planet called The Real World," someone from Europe or the Middle East or Africa might tell me. That's the truth. So any opinion I express requires me to inform you of my context.
If I could be endowed with a superpower, I'd wish to have this: I'd be able to touch someone, and with that touch, allow the person to see how selfish acts they'd committed had harmed others, and allow them to feel the extent of that hurt. It might drive some people insane. It would definitely drive me insane. But I can think of a few people I'd like to try it out on.
Watched 'Frontline' on PBS tonight. Very interesting. Especially interesting was an audio tape from when a group of Islamist guys were watching a tape of one of the first beheadings in Iraq, they're all excited and cheering, and then one guy says, "Wait... isn't that a sin?" It also had some information about the Salafist movement and Takfir wal-Hijra which seems pretty informative.
FEMTO: You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir, and I'm glad someone with a background such as yours is here to give us ignorant Yanks a view from the other side. I applaud all of your remarks, especially those having to do with educating us about Islamic culture. There are some things I would like to ask you, and I'm sure a bunch of others would benefit, also.
Do we need an official 'Polycount Islamic Education' thread?
[ QUOTE ] FEMTO: You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir, and I'm glad someone with a background such as yours is here to give us ignorant Yanks a view from the other side. I applaud all of your remarks, especially those having to do with educating us about Islamic culture. There are some things I would like to ask you, and I'm sure a bunch of others would benefit, also.
Do we need an official 'Polycount Islamic Education' thread?
/jzero
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Thank you for you kind words. I would be happy to answer any concerns you may have about my religion and I would try to best explain them as I can. However, I am not a scholar of any sort and I do not have all the answers about my religion. Funny thing is I am still learning more and more myself especially in regards to issues of fiqh, history and even Islamic jurisprudence and a great deal of other things.
I myself converted to Islam about two years ago, although both my parent are Muslims, I grew up hating the religion. I hated the many restrictions that were imposed upon me like not being able to drink alcohol or date girls. All my close friends were doing it and it really frustrated me that I was not allowed simply because of my religion. I would get into lots of arguments with my parents because I refused to read any of their religious books. I just cant express how much I hated Islam and knowing the fact that I was a Muslim by birth.
Anyway, once I moved out and started university, that was it, I became an atheist and had turned into the devil and was quick to experience everything. I drank a lot went out with girls for the first time and did all sorts of things, I was even drawn to the whole punk and hardcore music scene, I really enjoyed listening to bands such as Snapcase, Vision of Disorder and Pennywise even I was into Sepultura and Slayer lol wow those were the days. And then I was sitting in a rock night club one night and just staring at all the people dancing and stuff and it dawned on me, what is the real purpose of my life? And that was it, from that day I really started reading up more on political movements and religious thought. From Marxism to Christianity and none of them really made sense to me, I dont want to go into details as to why because I am not here to criticise other religions or ideas. Anyway, funny thing was that one day I was really bored and I was staying at my mums place and my mum has this big bookshelf of Islamic books, I just decided to pick one up after so many years and that was it. I was drawn to it. I accepted the religion of my parents, the religion that I so detested, but everything I read about it made sense to me.
Many people have argued that I may have accepted the religion because it was my parents religion, and I suppose it is an acceptable theory because I dont fully understand human psychology and what really affects our behaviours and such, however, everything I read just made logical sense to me. Furthermore, I never really got on with my parents and when I reached the age of 18 I stopped caring what my parents thought of me.
Now, I dont really want to enter into the realm of proselytizing my religion because I dont have the right to do that so I will stop there. But I would like to point out that I am still learning, and would be glad to explain anything you may not understand about my religion.
In regards to creating another thread I am not too sure, maybe this thread is just as appropriate.
Anyway, here is a little something I came across on the net some time ago which I think is a really great introduction to the many contributions made by the Muslims. Although most of it is quite brief especially the explanation as to why the Islamic golden age came to an end, nether the less, it serves as an ok introduction.
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Had an event of bad taste happen when playing Quake3 online last night, some anus logged in as LONDONS BURNING HAHA and crashed the server.
Indeed I think Vig's conclusion was rather extreme and the link Daz just posted has got me frustrated >:/
Events such as these certainly fuel the good in people, but unfortunately the unacceptable cunt factor in others.
and preferably prison.
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Be careful, or you may end up the same mindset as those you hate.
from what people say here, the question is are terrorist led to hatred of western world by personal opinion or are they following the herd?
honestly i dont know the education and history of every
terrorist out there, but at least from what I know of what happens is middle east islamic countries, people are being brainwashed from age 0 to hate. cartoon shows for kids show an american and an israeli waking up, picking up their guns and going to hunt little poor arab kids. This is absord, but absolutely true. you won't believe the propaganda these people are under since they are kids. so, what do you expect?
terror organizations pay young palestine women to give birth to kids for them. the mother gets a lot of money, and the baby is handed out as a tool for the organization. is she acting out of education? religeon? or is she just poor and needs money? in any case, you end up with 5 years old kids run around carrying bombs and you can imagine the rest. education isnt even a factor here.
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i feel a lot of this is blown out of porportion.. i lived with a palestinian for several years and learned much from him about the culture.. and he said its a very small part of the population that are actually extremist and they are looked down upon, because of them they face so much hardship on their day to day lives..
we lived in New Orleans.. i was an artist and he was a poet and it was your basic bohemian type place... he was very reserved and never bothered anyone.. one thing that happend to us that really hit home with me as something these people go through is when we went out for some halal food.. there was a group of israeli men eating there and one asked where my roommate was from and he said the westbank.. then my roommate wad picked up and thrown out into the street and beat, i was held back and they told if i did anything i was next.. they were screaming at him.. i couldnt understand anything and was just so shocked that all this was going on.. i felt so bad.. but he said after the incident that he would rather get harassed a few isolated times here than daily in palesitine.. he still has no hate for israelis and refuses to stoop to that level.. but it seems like a cycle.. these conflits breed hate.. london was bombed and now our leaders can use that as fuel for hate againt a people reguardless of their involment in extremism.. and when we retaliate on someones son or brother or mother they learn to hate us.. its pretty fucked up and a shame that EVERYONE is acting barbaric..
Apologies for upsetting people with the link. It really isn't relevant. it's just some ( clearly ) insane crackpot who needs to be behind some very sturdy bars. I guess my point was that there really are some nutters out there in this world from all religions.
Now back to the subject of how everyone different from us is stupid and wrong ok. Excellent.
<insert realisation of what irony and sarcasm is here>
<no? Ok watch Dr.Strangelove, always cheers me up>
r.
From what I can recall upon the Middle Eastern countries, the majority of fanatics that follow leaders blindly and stupidly believe that what they are doing is right, but only because those leaders told them as such. Many are illiterate and havent actually read the Koran, so its a lot easier to inject ideas by distorting certain views about Muslim faith.
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You're right in saying that many are fairly uneducated, you are quite far off in saying that they are illiterate and haven't read the Koran. I think you'll be very hard pressed to find any Muslim who follows the belief more than semi-seriously who hasn't read the Koran from cover to cover in their language. Many fanatics memorize much of the Koran by heart - not because they are illiterate and can't just pick it up and read it, but because their belief in its holiness is so strong that they memorize it. I don't think you will ever find an Islamic extremist who doesn't spend hours upon hours every day reading pages from the Koran.
They are not stupid, and told that 'The Koran says this' and blindly believe it. Much of every religious text is ambigous to a non-believer, but crystal-clear to someone who has grown up believing in a certain interpretation. Plenty of Christians out there believe that homosexuality is a sin because of what the Bible says, along with what they were taught by their parents, teachers or the local priest.
I'm certainly not defending the bombings in London and I'd be surprised if anyone got that impression from what I wrote here. I'm just saying that calling such terrorists ignorant, stupid or illiterate is in itself pretty near-sighted.
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From what I can recall upon the Middle Eastern countries, the majority of fanatics that follow leaders blindly and stupidly believe that what they are doing is right, but only because those leaders told them as such. Many are illiterate and haven’t actually read the Koran, so it’s a lot easier to inject ideas by distorting certain views about Muslim faith.
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i dont think this is an occurance just reserved for the middle east,the same can be said about many folks here in the states
every country has its ignorant and educated and people who exploit them for it.
I just wanted to add a few words. Firstly, I live only 10 minutes away from one of the explosion sites. I was extremely worried yesterday and phoning around like mad trying to contact my family members and friends. Unfortunately, there were problems getting in contact because there were problems with the telephone network. Thankfully, after several hours, I had managed to contact all members of my family and friends and everybody was ok and safe.
I would also like to add that I am an extremely devout Muslim, devout in modern day dictionary meaning a fundamentalist/extremist. Now before everybody makes a run for cover. I can affirm that I am not such a person and what happened yesterday was extremely heinous and could have only been conceived by some sick and twisted nut case/s. I would like to add that IF it was Muslims not all Muslims are like this. Every group/race/ideology/religion have their fair share of extremists. Just like those Christian fundamentalists who blew up an abortion clinic in the US, but that does not mean all Christians accept those fundamentalists understanding of Christianity. Yes, Christians dont agree with abortions, but not all will go out and blow up clinics. Likewise, with Muslims too, yes, it is a fact that there are many Muslims in Britain who are extremely angered with Tony Blairs Stance on the Iraq War and the way in which he has dealt with it. However, that does not mean that they agree to the extremists understanding of how to resolve this situation, i.e. blowing up innocent human beings.
The extremists who did this, and IF they did this do not represent Islam, although many extremist westerners will jump at the chance of saying that they do, this however, is untrue. Many British Muslims are British nationals, and consider the UK to be their home. You have to remember We British Muslims were also targets. We also use those train stations to commute to work. In fact, two of the stations are close to huge Muslim populations, which were Aldgate and Edgware Road stations. In fact, 1 in 10 people in London is a Muslim. Clearly, we exist and clearly, the terrorists have made no distinction as to who they were going to attack. Everybody who chooses to reside in London or on British soil is a target...Muslim or Non-Muslim and these extremists are well aware that Muslims do live in London and a big majority too.
Furthermore, I would like to add that the media and especially Tony Blair have handled this really badly with their assumptions. Thus far, there has been no concrete evidence as to who committed these barbaric atrocities, and already Muslims are being made the guilty party. The worrying this about this is that there will be extremist westerners who will go around looking to beat-up a Muslims just like what happened when 9/11 happened. Ok, there have been reports of some website with a written confession of a sub-branch Al-Qaeda group claiming to have committed these atrocities. Now come on everybody, we all here are educated people and should know very well what some website says does not constitute to being hard evidence, in fact it means nothing because anybody could have written it. Furthermore, has anybody here even read what it says? Can any of you even read Arabic? All the Quranic verses that were used all had grammatical mistakes. Now I am pretty sure most of you people here are people of logic. Now try to understand this. If supposedly, these were Muslim extremists, these are people who are extremely careful about how they use the words from the quran like all Muslims are since it is a sin to do so incorrectly. Now although these extremists dont properly understand the contextual use of the Quranic verses and apply their own interpretations, nether the less these people still show a great deal of respect to the quran because it is a sin to mistreat it and that means writing quranic verses incorrectly. Now since this statement contains many verses showing grammatical mistakes. What does this tell us? A great deal because it could not have been Muslims who wrote it because a Muslim would not be stupid enough to make such mistakes because it is a grave sin, and these terrorists consider themselves to be pious people (my ass), and would not make such a sinful mistake as that.
In addition, Tony Blair claiming that it was Al-Qaeda shows how this individual makes such rash judgements based on flimsy evidences and this truly exposes his incompetence to being a leader. A good leader does not make decisions or assertions based on weak evidences. But rather waits for the right moment.
I am not trying to defend these extremists but I am telling you that that statement was not written by a Muslim. Lets wait for concrete evidence before we start placing a name to the atrocities. Even though it may be obvious to you, it is beside the point. This is not how things are done in any civilised nation. Establishing proof is the most important thing to do first. If it is established that Muslims were involved then all true and law abiding Muslims will condemn this, but this does not mean that Muslims will accept this as serving as an excuse to invade more countries. This is not the way to resolve this situation. Blair unfortunately, is probably over the moon about what has happened because he will probably think this will further his stance to keeping British troops in Iraq. I would really love to see him send his children to that war. In fact, I believe that it should be made compulsory on all future leaders to send their children to any wars that they issue.
Anyway, lets all pray for all those that were killed or injured and hope they make a fast recovery.
Like I said, I wanted to see how the UK would react. The world is quick to judge America, but let's see how other nations stand when given the spotlight.
You know what I saw recently while reading some articles? Taliban. Now that's a word I haven't heard in so long. It feels like 2002 all over again. Funny how your mind is led to change focus over time. So how is everyone?
Every group/race/ideology/religion have their fair share of extremists.
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I'd like to think that everyone here is bright enough to not blame all muslims for the actions of some, just like they don't blame eachother or themselfes by the crimes commited by or in their country.
The fact that muslims etc were beaten up or anything after 9/11 shows that the west isn't really much better. There's extremists everywhere.
I remember an incident i saw on TV about germany some years ago, were i think catholic parents were throwing stones at 6-10 year old kids on their way to school, just because they were protestants or something. It went to the point were police had to escort the kids around that street. How sad is that. You'd think something like that couldn't happen nowadays, in a civilizated and educated world, and still.
There's so many morons in this world, just because people from around your area happen to be the ones blowing up things right now and getting all the attention, it shouldn't say anything about the people there. Spain has had the ETA terrorists forever, and even people here in canada know them and make jokes to me about them.
You know what I saw recently while reading some articles? Taliban. Now that's a word I haven't heard in so long. It feels like 2002 all over again. Funny how your mind is led to change focus over time. So how is everyone?
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Hi ElysiumGX,
Everybody that I know is fine and well, but are in a state of shock that it could actually have happened to us Brits. However, those who actually lost loved ones or who were injured, only god knows and my heart really goes out to those people.
Its moments like this seeing all those people covered in blood I really feel like going to Tony Blair and giving him an earful because I really believe he should be held accountable for this atrocity too, but even I must control that emotion no matter what my personal opinions are. Believe it or not I actually understand when non-Muslims are angered at every Muslim they see simply because this is a natural human emotional response to react in this way in situations like these. However, it is a wrong response. In these types of situations, we should not think with our emotions but apply rationality, and unfortunately, emotions easily override rational thought.
Either way, I would really like to see people try to calm themselves down, even though it will be tough. And just keep their thoughts more focused on those that have died and those who have been injured, and if possible seek out those injured or who have lost loved ones and see if there is anything you can do to help ease their pain, like helping them do the chores or whatever I dont know what exactly, but I am sure you get what I mean, just be good people. Rather then focusing on who may have done this. There is no clear evidence as to who it was and even if it does turn out to be Muslims that does not give people the justification to start going out seeking any Tom Dick and Harry Muslim on the street and beat the crap out of them. Our focus should be on capturing those involved and bringing them to justice. I mean me for example, I was a little paranoid about going out today because if you were to see me in person, I would probably fit your bill of what you think a Muslim extremist would look like because I have a beard and the whole shebang to go along with it. But I am just like most of you guys probably, I love 3D, 2D art, I love playing football even friggin support England in every world and European game. Only difference is that I am a Muslim, which should not be a problem.
I will admit that I really do despise the current British government because of its policies. However, that does not mean that I am going to go around and start blowing up people, I have many non-Muslim friends. In fact because I am from an art background, the majority of my friends and even childhood friends are non-Muslims, and I could never imagine bringing any harm to them.
Anyway, lets just pray that the problems that exist in the world today one day are resolved and we can all live happily ever after. I know its a long shot but I can have hope at least and pray for the best. Positive things only happen to positive thinkers.
Aw c'mon Vig! The guy was an UTTER fucktard. I dont think the story was reported in any other way than factual?! His nationality was mentioned to stress the point that he was a visitor.
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Yeah yeah so maybe I was reading into it a bit
But there is alot of talking down to America in international press, like they have an axe to grind. Maybe this wasn't the strongest example of it, and it more than likely doesn't exsist in this article but it does happen more times than I like to read. Of course Americans always talk trash about everyone outside of our boarders, especially our neighbors to the north, so I should be the last guy to be flaggin' this =P
There's always a point during social diferences where it's easier to be an ass than go back and try to fix things. Think we all have been there
In fact in my opinion the one who will be seen first in making an attempt to negotiate will actually be seen as the heroes and the honourable ones in this situation. So far both sides are despicable and should be ashamed of themselves in choosing violence first or should I say the only alternative.
The initial reaction is always "they hurt me so I gotta hurt them", but in the end we seem to hurt ourselves more. I have a friend who is a US citizen who has family in Kuwait and on her way back from visiting them she was detained, searched and questioned for no other reason than how she looked. I heard on the news the other day about a guy who was born and raised in Springfield IL who was handcuffed and questioned for 6 hours, multiple times, just because he was visiting family in Iraq. The whole patriot act, homeland security, it makes me feel less secure knowing what these allow the government to do, making them more of a threat than the terrorists. One person causes problems, and everyone in punished.
I don't know if diong nothing is really an answer, seems like no matter what happens we lose our personal freedoms, friends or family, or both. Like trying to pick the best of the bad ideas.
sorry about this semi side rant, seeing that last night just kinda got me thinking.
However, I strongly disagree with your suggestion that Blair is probably 'over the moon' about horrific atrocities on British soil like these. That's a fairly outrageous statement. I totally understand that you despise the man and the government due to their actions, but call me old fashioned, I genuinely believe that it is utter nonsense to suggest that he could be 'happy' about British blood being splashed up London buildings in such a brutal fashion, no matter what political gains you think that might get him. And no, I'm certainly not defending his decision to send troops to Iraq. Never for one moment did I think that war was the 'right' thing to do. Even though I think he made the wrong decision, I don't believe that he had an easy time making that decision either. As for wether or not Al Quaeda are responsible, I empathize with your concern that it has not really been proven or claimed yet, and I definitely agree that it is very dangerous to jump the gun. But If it turns out that they are responsible will it really be such a big suprise? I don't think its a website that it is making people believe they are responsible. They are simply for better or worse, the most known, obvious choice as a perpetrator for an act like this in current times. IRA? No, that makes no sense at all. I suspect perhaps ( and please do not be offended by this. If I have it wrong tell me. But you mentioned several times the high population of muslims around the bomb sites ) you might have a hard time dealing with the fact that an organisation like Al Quaeda could consider targets that would include muslims, but I think you're overestimating their thought process, and I am sure many muslims died on 9/11.
To get back to the innocent victims for a moment, just to put some faces to all of this, think of the people that are still unnacounted for. Reading this brought a lump to my throat:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4664209.stm
So, what do we do about it? Hunt them down and kill them or put them behind bars? Or do we try to understand them and their reasoning and negotiate with them...
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[humor]
We load up busses full of crash test dummies dressed up in thier sunday best, or perhaps nuns. Park these busses in the middle of some deserted area and wait for the terrorist to run out of pink squishy, C4 wrapped, talking bombs.
Or we do what Bush did and move the war from our front porch to the sand lot down the street. It doesn't mean the fight is over just changed locations. It didn't take them long to bring the bag of flaming dog crap back to our porch, ring the bell and run. Tag you're it so to speak... What a lovely game we are playing, so who do I talk to about getting a subsitue, I'm getting tired coach...
Alt-F4, nope the war is still going on...
Alt-F4, nope the war is still going on...
Alt-F4, nope the war is still going on...
Alt-F4, nope the war is still going on...
Damn windows it's all Gates fault. There, is everyone happy we have a face to hate.
[/humor]
More evidence religion is sick. Im all for personal spirituality, (even if i cant spell it)
In a way, our country had this attack on the cards for a while , we did go and invade another country for there natural resorses after all .... how long til our aliance invades Iran? Hang on , wasnt China on the axis of evil list? thats gona be a fun one :S
So, what do we do about it? Hunt them down and kill them or put them behind bars? Or do we try to understand them and their reasoning and negotiate with them...
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Well, hunting them down and killing them is against the laws of some countries. The act was a criminal act, therefore they must be tried as such. And one less dead terrorist = 1 less "martyr".
Try to understand them? Of course we need to understand them. Ignoring why they are doing it is a stupid policy.
Negotiating? No, you cannot negotiate, because that shows that they get what they want, leading more people to adopt the same methods.
But understanding why they are doing it? Yes. If they have 100,000 reasons for doing what they are doing, and just 1 of those reasons is a GENUINE grievence that real people can identify with, then we should be looking at it. You would never tell them that you agreed with it, you would never make a deal, you would never negotiate.
News story
More evidence religion is sick.
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Sounds like a wierd case of Frailty coming to life. FREAK-IE!
He said since these attacks happened theres a whole new feeling in the air as he visited the place during the day yesterday.
Before these attacks you were always asking yourself "when will we be attacked?,where will we be attacked?,will it be chemicals or exsplosives?.will it be suicide bombers or remote mines? etc"....but since its happened theres a whole new feeling of relaxation,feeling safe and pretty secure.Becuase now at least what many people thought was inevitable at some point has happened.
John
One thing I hear a lot is the Muslims want to change how we do things here (western world). NO, they want us to stop what we are doing in their country. Big difference.
they want an islamic state. kick out the government and the royals and have an islamic theocracy. no more video games, women in their skimpies, no music, not even chess, NO FUN! all men grow beards, all women wear burkas. etc etc. why do you think the average afghan was so pleased when we kicked the taliban out?
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Thats actually a big misconception about what these people are actually after. Frankly, I am not even to sure as to how that was conceived in the first place. The reality is that they have no interest with the west and a desire to turn the western world into an Islamic state is false. Funny thing is that an Islamic state does not exist today. There are countries that have 90% + majority Muslim populations, however, there is not a single supposed Muslim country that applies Islamic shriah. Even the Taliban were not implementing it either. I would love to see some prove me wrong on this.
However, what these extremists are after is to see the removal of western presence from their countries, not to see the western world converted to Islam.
In regards to banning games and such I think you need to read up on Islamic ijtihad before you make a statement like that! nuff said. In fact the Islamic system is not as archaic as you would like to think. It is a well known fact that the Islamic world has contributed a great deal to the world and at the height of the Islamic empire it was a great place of learning and there was a great interest in the pursuit of modernization. Ironically, the Islamic world is the one that brought the western world out of their dark ages .many western scholars would flock to the Islamic empire to learn the many new things that were being taught their. The greatest problem for the Muslim world today is the absence of the Islamic state because there is no application of Islamic shariah. Furthermore, the Islamic world has grown to become extremely arrogant. They were the teachers of the west and now the student has surpassed the teacher and the teacher is far too arrogant to be taught by the student. Arrogance is truly bliss.
I guess I'm just adding to Femto's underlying point that really, we don't know much about Islam beyond our media indoctrinated racist jokes about them being a bunch of towel wearing idiots that are just angry at us for having more than them.
That said, I'm not willing to back up anything else you are saying Fem, I just thought you would appreciate that some of us also have read up enough on the past to come across examples of Islamic inteligence that support your point that our media is just as one sided as any other sides media!
r.
i'm not a complete moron. honest. i've read several claims that these looneys want a global islamic state or at least to throw out the west in the mid-east, but having an islamic state was one of that nutbar abu hamza's ideals.
That was supposed to be on the "Meaning of Life" thread...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4667379.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/4669039.stm
Oh, the humanity. Events like this baffle me. I realize that I lead a sheltered, fairly insular suburban American existence, so extreme acts such as the London bombs strike me as coming from another planet. "The planet called The Real World," someone from Europe or the Middle East or Africa might tell me. That's the truth. So any opinion I express requires me to inform you of my context.
If I could be endowed with a superpower, I'd wish to have this: I'd be able to touch someone, and with that touch, allow the person to see how selfish acts they'd committed had harmed others, and allow them to feel the extent of that hurt. It might drive some people insane. It would definitely drive me insane. But I can think of a few people I'd like to try it out on.
Watched 'Frontline' on PBS tonight. Very interesting. Especially interesting was an audio tape from when a group of Islamist guys were watching a tape of one of the first beheadings in Iraq, they're all excited and cheering, and then one guy says, "Wait... isn't that a sin?" It also had some information about the Salafist movement and Takfir wal-Hijra which seems pretty informative.
FEMTO: You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir, and I'm glad someone with a background such as yours is here to give us ignorant Yanks a view from the other side. I applaud all of your remarks, especially those having to do with educating us about Islamic culture. There are some things I would like to ask you, and I'm sure a bunch of others would benefit, also.
Do we need an official 'Polycount Islamic Education' thread?
/jzero
FEMTO: You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir, and I'm glad someone with a background such as yours is here to give us ignorant Yanks a view from the other side. I applaud all of your remarks, especially those having to do with educating us about Islamic culture. There are some things I would like to ask you, and I'm sure a bunch of others would benefit, also.
Do we need an official 'Polycount Islamic Education' thread?
/jzero
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Thank you for you kind words. I would be happy to answer any concerns you may have about my religion and I would try to best explain them as I can. However, I am not a scholar of any sort and I do not have all the answers about my religion. Funny thing is I am still learning more and more myself especially in regards to issues of fiqh, history and even Islamic jurisprudence and a great deal of other things.
I myself converted to Islam about two years ago, although both my parent are Muslims, I grew up hating the religion. I hated the many restrictions that were imposed upon me like not being able to drink alcohol or date girls. All my close friends were doing it and it really frustrated me that I was not allowed simply because of my religion. I would get into lots of arguments with my parents because I refused to read any of their religious books. I just cant express how much I hated Islam and knowing the fact that I was a Muslim by birth.
Anyway, once I moved out and started university, that was it, I became an atheist and had turned into the devil and was quick to experience everything. I drank a lot went out with girls for the first time and did all sorts of things, I was even drawn to the whole punk and hardcore music scene, I really enjoyed listening to bands such as Snapcase, Vision of Disorder and Pennywise even I was into Sepultura and Slayer lol wow those were the days. And then I was sitting in a rock night club one night and just staring at all the people dancing and stuff and it dawned on me, what is the real purpose of my life? And that was it, from that day I really started reading up more on political movements and religious thought. From Marxism to Christianity and none of them really made sense to me, I dont want to go into details as to why because I am not here to criticise other religions or ideas. Anyway, funny thing was that one day I was really bored and I was staying at my mums place and my mum has this big bookshelf of Islamic books, I just decided to pick one up after so many years and that was it. I was drawn to it. I accepted the religion of my parents, the religion that I so detested, but everything I read about it made sense to me.
Many people have argued that I may have accepted the religion because it was my parents religion, and I suppose it is an acceptable theory because I dont fully understand human psychology and what really affects our behaviours and such, however, everything I read just made logical sense to me. Furthermore, I never really got on with my parents and when I reached the age of 18 I stopped caring what my parents thought of me.
Now, I dont really want to enter into the realm of proselytizing my religion because I dont have the right to do that so I will stop there. But I would like to point out that I am still learning, and would be glad to explain anything you may not understand about my religion.
In regards to creating another thread I am not too sure, maybe this thread is just as appropriate.
Anyway, here is a little something I came across on the net some time ago which I think is a really great introduction to the many contributions made by the Muslims. Although most of it is quite brief especially the explanation as to why the Islamic golden age came to an end, nether the less, it serves as an ok introduction.
http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/ScienceMath/Science_and_Math.html