Daz - most of the networks were turned off to prevent any possible bomb detentations. They are mostly on, some are reserving their network for emergency services, and all users have been asked (in the London area) to not make unnecessary calls at this time.
shotgun: "Them" as in "the terrorists". They don't care whether the people killed in their terror attacks are innocent and not related to the government so eye for an eye would mean killing innocents they would consider their own people. Sure, Mecca is of value to non-terrorists, too but the usual terror targets are of value to non-government people as well. I know that would be "collateral damage" on par with WW2 but collateral damage is all that terrorism causes, they don't seem to attack government officials very often. Since these terror groups declare war they should be prepared to see another Dresden. War means large scale destructions, they shouldn't throw that word around so thoughtlessly. Hell, if us "infidels" were as nasty as they say the bombs dropped on Iraq would be MOABs and nukes, perhaps some napalm, not GPS guided precision bombs.
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KDR I would have NEVER expected to read something like that from you.
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Ditto. And you make a great point KDR, if we really were as evil as Al Qaeda would like to paint us, they would have been responsible for guaranteeing the complete anihillation of their race.
daz, this webpage has a lot of info. Im not sure how wiki updates current event webpages but it seems correct so far and is easier than trawling through news webpages
KDR, be prepared to see another Dresen, shame on you for saying that as a german.
A mass killing like that should never be seen as a solution even in a "war". What you are talking about is not "war" but "Total war", (the histroy bells should be ringing here) so get your terms right here.
Unbelievable that you can actually feel hatered at that scale and just underlining it with playing around with the word "war".
Also concerning your precision bombs you also have to ask yourself what they hit, even if so accurate, using them to destroy the infrastructure over a period of 10 years is not very humane in my eyes. (and I am not saying that that makes the actions in London less worse)
EVEN if that would not be the case what kinda argumentation is this "Well we are not as bad as they make us out to be because we only drop bombs at them not REALLY big ones"
Where is your reason and logic (that I am seriously beginning to question) that you normally post with ?
You said "The UK has been dealing with terrorists for centuries now. I can't imagine that you all would be that easily shaken."
You didn't say "all of you in the UK", so it looked like a generalized response. My bad :P
Oxnary - Our government didn't go nuts. If they did, they would have attacked the next day, with disregard to everything. They waited quite a long time before they assaulted (4 months or so, wasn't it?). Granted, they should have planned more, but still. They didn't 'go nuts'.
I really don't know why these people declare themselves as believers of Islam and then go and do such terrible things. I mean there must be another version they've been taught if they think what they do is approved by the creator ><;
I'm glad they weren't able to do more, but its sad that it happened at all. Condolences to all the people who lost loved ones
well.. "Eye for an eye" is something that is regarded acceptable in the arab world, not strictly for terrorists. Arab society is a lot about respect (just between men, though. women dont mean squat). this could be considered good... this could be considered bad. whats for sure is terrorist usually reply to the term "fanatics", which means, essentially, they accept no other way but their own. so not only what you do to them is what you get (and entirely by their own measurement), you also have 2 options: agree with them, or kill them.
i agree. if we could throw all the palestines into the sea, israel would be very nice. look! no one to fight.
but not everything is so black and white when you are not a fanatic. our goverments are not fanatics, fortunately. so we dont kill them, but we dont agree. we diplomatically are trying to meet them somewhere halfway, supposedly, and behind the curtains - and believe me on this - all goverments of "good guys" are hunting their asses down with their special. israel too, and most likely your own countries best special forces. dont be naive. your nation was naive, and what you got was a world war. twice.
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and Irritant, what "race" are you talking about ?
[/ QUOTE ]O.k, not "race" but "group".
I'm just saying that if we(western cultures) were really "the great satan" that the terrorists make us out to be, or if Bush/Blair were really like Hitler or Stalin, that they would not exist to carry out their acts. They would have long since been dealt with in a less than humane manor.
Phil: It was more the thought of "what if we used the same methods they do". Just a hypothetical scenario. Though if they seriously posed a threat to our existence I don't doubt such extreme measures would be taken. Fortunately terrorists are just a bunch of delusional idiots that believe they have the power to control an entire planet. They are even more arrogant than they call us, believing they can inflict any serious damage to the west. I may tolerate a lot but what I absolutely do not tolerate is people trying to use your friendliness against you. Exploiting a privilege is a good way of losing it.
Besides, what their actions do is push us more into a dictatorship, if one western country really reached a full dictatorship, a police state as portrayed in 1984, it'd be goodbye to anyone who even slightly looks like a threat. They're already detaining arab-looking people without charges, imagine what if this was true despotism. Those people would be round up and shot. And the dictator wouldn't spare anyone, they'd just outlaw Islam and commit another genocide. Imagine what if the US was headed by a nearly invincible government that was not bound by any law and no longer controlled by democracy. Noone could stop them from commiting large scale genocide, they'd exterminate the middle east and seize its ressources. Think Star Wars with an armada of death stars and no Luke Skywalker.
But I guess that's kinda inappropriate to discuss in this thread.
unless it's a sports match, or the queen's jubilee or VE-day, VJ-day, rememberance or we just won the olympics for 2012...
9/11/01
10/12/02
3/11/04
7//7/05
oh, joy...i've been waiting for this, just glad it wasn't as bad as it could have been...
33 dead, 7 at one, 21 from a second and 5 from a third. unknown number on the bus.
as the london mayor said, these people killed ordinary working innocents. christians and muslims. jews and hindus. black and white. nothing can justify that.
6 years of the nazis and the blitz didn't crack london, these jokers won't.
Attack Mecca durring ramadan!? If that happens you can watch all the friendly Muslims strap on C4. It would be like giving guns to all the children standing in line to see Santa, then executing Santa.
if there is one thing ive learned in my study of history is that Brits are tough and something like this wont shake or scare them.
as for for the whole great satan thing, part of the problem is that many of these countries have alot of constant propaganda like we have here as well and when some action taken by our countries takes the lives of their citizens,the extremist there point to that and say "see what they did,they are the great satan" and over time good people seeing that and hearing the propaganda begin to believe it and moderates turn to extremist. just like when something like that happens to us there are people in this country who make a living at spewing hate use these actions as fuel to support their extremist views and sell that to the more oderate people in our society.
that type of propaganda on both sides just fuels apathy,anger and fear.
Vig: Not outright attack, declare "if any of you move, we'll blow up your sacred city".
I just read the statement from those terrorists... Man, what a bunch of delusional wankers. "massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan". Pah, they've seen nothing! Would they prefer if the Russians invaded Iraq?
And do those idiots really believe that attacking other worshippers of the same god is the will of their god? Man, I guess you could almost wipe out terrorism if you handed out some intelligence in those circles. No wonder that their countries of origin have an average IQ around 85.
What we really need is politicians pointing out to these people what morons they are and how insignificant they are in the grand scheme of things in order to make people here feel better and the terrorists feel worse. But that wouldn't keep the public terrorized and would make them more critical of all that stupid "anti-terror" legislation that pushes us closer to despotism so you don't see politicians "cheering up" the populace.
Terrorists are fucking stupid. And because of those idiots innocent people have to die. It's a sad world.
@KDR: seriously you are talking rubbish. While there are certian half-trues in what you are saying, the conclusions you make are just plain stupid, sorry.
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BTW I can only suggest that everyone who can should see the BBC trilogy 'Power of Nightmares'. It pretty much sums up the current situation of both sides.
I could be pulling this out of my ass but isn't it a religious rule that if even a piece of a practicing Islamic, touches any kind of pork there is no chance of that person getting into heaven? I also heard (on NPR) a few months back that Israel is putting pouches of pig blood/meat on its busses to help discourage would-be bombers? This could either be pretty cleaver solution, or it might just make them search their ranks for ppl willing to damn themselves for the cause?
Fighting strict religious laws/commands with their own laws/commands sounds pretty savvy to me. Oh if it was only as simple has having every bus driver wear a pork chop necklace, think of the lives we could save =(
KDR, I agree with most of what you are saying, but I still think its suicide to hold a gun to the most holy city they know. Even so much as a hint of someone pointing a finger at Mecca would be enough to drive millions to pick the flag of martyrdom. Also I am not so sure its a "holy" war as much as a "we are angry we are not in power, we are using religion as a thin disguise" for war. If it was a full on holy war why don't we see key Christian monuments attacked? Why the trade centers when Rome is closer and much more of a religious target? Why train stations and busses when there are churches on every street corner?
I think England's stiff upper lip attitude is what the rest of the world needs to adopt. It's not that they don't care and don't hurt but they know better than to give a terrorist the one thing the crave and seek out the most. I applaud them for at least having the sense to put on a brave front.
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Stiff upper lip my arse, that's just a stupid term. A better term would be "Lack of knee jerk reaction due to previous experience"
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yep dont think we will see any legislation passed which was written dropped in the PM's mailbox in the middle of the night and passed without a majority of the members of the House of Commons reading it or debating at length .
JO: I wouldn't go too far, we've done much worse than what you are alluding to. While its fair comment that Brits have a bit more common sense in regard to terrorism thanks to the experience of the IRA, we're far from free from legal stains.
I give up on you KDR, even the 1984 scenario is just overused and another extreme.
I´ll go with what rick emplyed. London has expierenced that before and that also explaind my mums calm reaction to my phonecall this morning asking her if she had heard what was going on.
KDR does make one good point. The people who commit these acts are completely retarded. It doesn't take a 4th grade reading level to explode, and they could care less who the target is. I say the UK wage a War on Stupidity.
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I really don't know why these people declare themselves as believers of Islam and then go and do such terrible things. I mean there must be another version they've been taught if they think what they do is approved by the creator ><;
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Matter of interpretation. Our history is full of holy christian crusades, inquision, burning and torturing of innocents and murdering of non believers and cultures that didn't want to accept our way.
Just need to read up on our own history to understand how these people work. Our predecesors managed to make all their action sound justified too.
We haven't completely changed either, with the difference that oil and money are the new gods in the holy war against terrorism. Sadly, you always end up killing more innocents than terrorists.
And there's still a lot of other religious based racism and other malism in the west.
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Matter of interpretation. Our history is full of holy christian crusades, inquision, burning and torturing of innocents and murdering of non believers and cultures that didn't want to accept our way.
Just need to read up on our own history to understand how these people work. Our predecesors managed to make all their action sound justified too.
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Agreed, and Im glad to see that notion put forth. Islam started around the 6th century A.D. and since been if not opressed by at least earnestly nuicenced by Christian folk. As such their spiritual/religious/socitial evolution is at least 800 hundred years younger than their Christian counter part.
The Catholic church reigned in the Dark Ages. The ludicris acts of the many crusades were nothing short of evil as was the inquistion. Then the white man's burden of Colonial Imperialism set the world wrong in so many ways a list would exceed the character limit in this board. Then of course the Cold War, which was not as much a burden to either the US or USSR as it was to the countries between them.
All that said terrorism is an evil that must be addressed and Im confident that this will only strengthen the resolve of the Brit's.
From what I can recall upon the Middle Eastern countries, the majority of fanatics that follow leaders blindly and stupidly believe that what they are doing is right, but only because those leaders told them as such. Many are illiterate and havent actually read the Koran, so its a lot easier to inject ideas by distorting certain views about Muslim faith. Similar practices have occurred even with Christian beliefs. Take the religious group at the Waco compound that was at the top of the news a few years ago, or the Heavens Gate cult. These groups had leaders that managed to influence people enough to totally skew reality, and with deadly results.
Its sad to find that many fanatics are just generally troubled or frustrated and often times these frustrations are the result of the environment and living situations that they exist in. These same subdued people that dont know much about their religion and who are generally upset with something are easy targets for someone with an agenda. So following other peoples interpretations of a faith they cannot fully understand and finding a scapegoat for their adversity seems to be something that makes sense.
Al Quada is a group of people that seeks to enlist those people that are afraid that their way of is in jeopardy. Most of these people are not educated as mentioned earlier, and will do anything for beliefs that someone else has interpreted for them.
The principal stated aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Bin Laden has also said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.
The beliefs these people fight for are to dispel many western beliefs, yet the groups leaders themselves contradict what they teach. Osama bin Laden for example has millions of dollars and was educated at Harvard. His top officials are all well educated and come from well-to-do families. The network they run is faceted and broken up so not even its own supporters and soldiers know how many people belong to the Al Queda organization. A few people pulling all the strings
Oh and in April, 2004, bin Laden offered a truce to Europe, saying that al-Qaeda would not attack any country, with the exception of the U.S., that withdrew its troops from the Islamic world within three months. European leaders quickly rejected the offer.
Most terrorist attacks against western countries are in retaliation to the west and its influence over the rest of the world. The US is one of the youngest and one of the most influential nations in the world and as a result, was targeted for a terrorist attack. The UK is no different and also lends its support to the US and that would be reason enough to retaliate against such that country.
As for contradictions
What was interesting though is that the terrorists that hijacked the planes and crashed them into US buildings were almost all from Kuwait, and this was in part because there are many US citizens there that occupy many of the jobs in that country. These people were also well educated and could not get jobs in their own country because of US intrusion.
The US supplied many Afghan soldiers with the weapons that they currently use against us. These weapons were supplied to them so that they could drive out the Soviets when they invaded Afghanistan in the mid 80s.
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you, but many peoples find Western countries to be very intrusive and overly influential. I can only imagine that many terrorist leaders feel that the more dominant countries tend to lobby themselves to others nations to get the resources they need, much in the same way corporations use lobbyists to force things to their favor.
I managed to finally track down everyone I wanted to so I'm relieved. There's only a limited number of lines across the Atlantic and all I got was engaged tones for about 3 hrs. But I'm still sad for the city and feel a pull to be back. It's my hometown after all. And Scott, thanks for the flag. I appreciate that the union flag means different things to different people from the British isles, but some of us southerners might appreciate the sentiment
Some thoughts as to the emerging political debate in the thread:
1) I disagree with a couple of you that think the perpetrators are retards. I know it helps to think of them that way ( and yes, I do despise anyone that commits murderous cowardly acts like these ), but co-ordinated attacks like these do actually require planning, intelligence ( of both kinds ) and conviction. They are not retards, but they are brainwashed into thinking that they are doing the 'right' thing in the eyes of their 'religion', 'people' and 'cause'.
2) On the subject of religion, Im not so convinced that it's as much at the heart of things as a lot of you seem to think. Vig makes this point quite well. They are driven to these acts by hate. Yes, a few fundamentals might see this is a jihad, but quite honestly I think a lot of these nutters see it from more of a rich V poor, David V Goliath kind of perspective. The statement that is reported to have come from Al Qaeda suggests that this is vengeance for the 'massacres' happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm not saying that religion isn't central to how these people think, but I just wonder If a lot of it isn't more of a more simplistic anti-west, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist perspective than the suggested 'we must kill christians at all costs' notion. Anyone who's ever spent any time in central London ,( and that would include these terrorists ) and wandered about would quickly realize that it is a cultural melting pot. If as exactly just happened you killed 37 people randomly in central London, I wonder how many actual practising christians you would take out? Probably not many. If they haven't figured that out, then perhaps they are retards after all.
Daz: excellent point, yet they also have their beliefs of the afterlife, so they are fearless when it comes to death in that manner. It's pretty much a guaranteed way of success. So really it is brainwashing. (By the way, I am religious, but not Christian nor Muslim, and I think both are man edited and brainwashing in a sense)
My sympathy and prayers go out to the families and survivors, and my respect goes out to the people who are staying strong through this whole incident.
Daz: I'm pretty sure the actual grunts who blow themselves up believe it's a religious act, their leaders however merely use them to further their own goals, kinda like the crusades, many crusaders fought because they believed they would go to heaven in return.
EW YORK (Reuters) - London was the scene of carnage on Thursday after a series of deadly blasts but American R&B crooner Omarion, who suffered no injury or inconvenience, wants people to pray for him.
by the sounds of that he wasn't even involved in one of the blasts...
That just makes me sick to my stomach, it just bares no respect and an unwavering dillusion of grandeur.
Always "fun" to see how both Blair and Bush give a speech to respond about these events.
Blair takes his time to find the right words, takes short breaks and talks all calm. And then there's Bush who rattles on, doesn't take any breaks to think and therefor fumbles with words and makes mistakes.
I was in London for business until Tuesday night. Glad I left on the right day because it must have been a pain to find a cab to get to the airport.
from what people say here, the question is are terrorist led to hatred of western world by personal opinion or are they following the herd?
honestly i dont know the education and history of every
terrorist out there, but at least from what I know of what happens is middle east islamic countries, people are being brainwashed from age 0 to hate. cartoon shows for kids show an american and an israeli waking up, picking up their guns and going to hunt little poor arab kids. This is absord, but absolutely true. you won't believe the propaganda these people are under since they are kids. so, what do you expect?
terror organizations pay young palestine women to give birth to kids for them. the mother gets a lot of money, and the baby is handed out as a tool for the organization. is she acting out of education? religeon? or is she just poor and needs money? in any case, you end up with 5 years old kids run around carrying bombs and you can imagine the rest. education isnt even a factor here.
these people do this stuff and say "get out of iraq/afghanistan/ect" but i think it is going to backfire this time and cause more countries to commit to the 'war on terror'.
Terrorists aren't an army. If they were this war would already be over. An army is centralized, with the long range weaponry western countries have any army would be dead before they were even mobilized. An army camp could easily be taken out by one large bomb. It'd pose no problem to get a high yield bomb into their headquarters 24 hours after the war started, we have intercontinental missiles and long range bombers.
Terrorists are more like the resistance, they are decentralized and have no clear structure. No base of operations you could take out. That's the problem. We might know where they are approximately but that's the best we can do, they blend in with the civilians and live in civil areas. I.e. you don't know who to target. Of course they could handle it like they did in Vietnam, if it moves it's a valid target but that's not something we're going to do these days. Terrorists are more like criminals than soldiers, you'd need the police, not the army to take care of them. Which is probably why there's so much emphasis on building up Iraq and Afghanistan, once the country is built up you can use the local police force to infiltrate and eliminate terrorist cells.
EW YORK (Reuters) - London was the scene of carnage on Thursday after a series of deadly blasts but American R&B crooner Omarion, who suffered no injury or inconvenience, wants people to pray for him.
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It's funny how they point out the fact that he is American. If he was really all that big of a "star" you won't have to point that fact out. So why did they print it? Oh right I remember now all Americans are inconsiderate A-holes who only care about themselves... Well I guess I will remember to pray for only the dead and injuried, forget about anyone that might suffer any kind of emotional shock from just being in london at the time, ESPECIALLY if they are pig headed AMERICAN R&B no-names. I agree it was a pretty stupid thing for his PR guy to say but the article is written in a way that fosters just that much more hate for America, way to go allies
On the subject of religion, Im not so convinced that it's as much at the heart of things as a lot of you seem to think. Vig makes this point quite well. They are driven to these acts by hate. Yes, a few fundamentals might see this is a jihad, but quite honestly I think a lot of these nutters see it from more of a rich V poor, David V Goliath kind of perspective. The statement that is reported to have come from Al Qaeda suggests that this is vengeance for the 'massacres' happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm not saying that religion isn't central to how these people think, but I just wonder If a lot of it isn't more of a more simplistic anti-west, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist perspective than the suggested 'we must kill christians at all costs' notion. Anyone who's ever spent any time in central London ,( and that would include these terrorists ) and wandered about would quickly realize that it is a cultural melting pot. If as exactly just happened you killed 37 people randomly in central London, I wonder how many actual practising christians you would take out? Probably not many. If they haven't figured that out, then perhaps they are retards after all.
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According to bin Laden's 1998 fatwa (religious decree), it is the duty of Muslims around the world to wage holy war on the U.S., American citizens, and Jews. Muslims who do not heed this call are declared apostates (people who have forsaken their faith).
All of this is in regard to one mans beliefs, views and interpretations on things and how well he has managed to make others see his vision.
I suspect that the reasoning and beliefs with religion and politics are so vague and mixed that one can only wonder what the individuals in these groups fight for exactly. Theres a lot of rich vs. poor going on and it can be assessed that these people see the US and UK as evil nations, but I do think that most of the reasons for their actions stem from religious roots that will eventually lead to more political factors. Most of these attacks are meant to strike at the nation and not a religious group directly. It can be assumed that the victims will hold some religious standing anyway.
And that leads to:
Al-Qaeda differs significantly from more traditional terrorist organizations. It does not depend on the sponsorship of a political state, and, unlike the PLO or the IRA, it is not defined by a particular conflict. Instead, al-Qaeda operates as a franchise. It provides financial and logistical support, as well as name recognition to other terrorist groups.
That certainly caters to a whole plethora of candidates that you would like to have bolster your ranks as well as increase the notoriety and credibility of your group and its beliefs. Western countries view these people as bugs to stamp out, others may view them as the underdogs that will never give up.
And while these people aren't dumb, they are still very misguided and yes, most of these attacks are based upon hatred. But religion is used as a medium to justify these acts as well and it is a lot easier to convince many more people to do something with such a strong and unifying motivator as religion despite the obvious political agenda driving all of this. I think it is also a lot easier to unite a whole number of peoples with religion than it would be through politics alone (the obvious contradiction to that would be the US and UK; 2 nations that are united because its many nationalities and faiths view themselves as people of one nation).
the middle east has been a playground for western governments in hot and cold war for centuries. if some so-called super-power played around with your society for the sake of their very own interests, how would you feel about it?
these people are desperate in that their political and military power is virtually non-existant, thus they have no possibility to defend themselves let alone strike back other than using guerilla tactics. and guerilla tactics, that's what i'd call this. how desperate has someone to be to blow him/herself up to at least get a little revenge?
brainwashing: in one country brainwashing might be handled by religious leaders, in other countries it's the politicians and media who does that job.
in any case, the effects of what these people propagate as the truth show up in our societies. so, most of us probably
have been brainwashed since our youth to believe one thing or another. maybe some palestinian kid watches tv shows which show things as described by shotgun. but how many movies or videogames have you experienced, where evil arabs threatened the world and were finally defeated by cool western special forces or secret service agents?
fyi: over here it seems to me that since quite a few years we are being brainwashed to dislike the US. not that the US politics seem to have changed significantly over the last decades to justify that. but definitely the climate in the media has changed and it starts to show in our society.
anyway, condolences to anyone who got hurt in these incidents. but as always, more "war on terror" will mean more of these kinds of incidents in the future.
afaik there is no successful strategy to defeating a guerilla force and it would definitely be better to finally ease relationships with the middle east instead of trying to punish someone - once more it will hit the wrong persons like in london.
EW YORK (Reuters) - London was the scene of carnage on Thursday after a series of deadly blasts but American R&B crooner Omarion, who suffered no injury or inconvenience, wants people to pray for him.
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It's funny how they point out the fact that he is American. If he was really all that big of a "star" you won't have to point that fact out. So why did they print it? Oh right I remember now all Americans are inconsiderate A-holes who only care about themselves... Well I guess I will remember to pray for only the dead and injuried, forget about anyone that might suffer any kind of emotional shock from just being in london at the time, ESPECIALLY if they are pig headed AMERICAN R&B no-names. I agree it was a pretty stupid thing for his PR guy to say but the article is written in a way that fosters just that much more hate for America, way to go allies
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Aw c'mon Vig! The guy was an UTTER fucktard. I dont think the story was reported in any other way than factual?! His nationality was mentioned to stress the point that he was a visitor. I have no idea how this is fostering hate for Americans. That's a pretty extreme conclusion you've reached there I think.
Now THIS is fostering hate. There are some seriously sick people in this world, and unfortunately some of them are on 'our' side:
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None of us are 'shaken' at all. We're simply showing our concern and regret about what has happened.
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Read my reply again, Vassago.
I didn't realize there was a Reno, Nevada, USA in the UK.
KDR I would have NEVER expected to read something like that from you.
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Ditto. And you make a great point KDR, if we really were as evil as Al Qaeda would like to paint us, they would have been responsible for guaranteeing the complete anihillation of their race.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_London_transport_explosions
A mass killing like that should never be seen as a solution even in a "war". What you are talking about is not "war" but "Total war", (the histroy bells should be ringing here) so get your terms right here.
Unbelievable that you can actually feel hatered at that scale and just underlining it with playing around with the word "war".
Also concerning your precision bombs you also have to ask yourself what they hit, even if so accurate, using them to destroy the infrastructure over a period of 10 years is not very humane in my eyes. (and I am not saying that that makes the actions in London less worse)
EVEN if that would not be the case what kinda argumentation is this "Well we are not as bad as they make us out to be because we only drop bombs at them not REALLY big ones"
Where is your reason and logic (that I am seriously beginning to question) that you normally post with ?
and Irritant, what "race" are you talking about ?
complete anihillation of their race.
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Impossible given its an idea, not a race responsible.
Sorry this happened. Hope your government doesn't go nuts (like hittting a beehive) like ours did.
Read my reply again, Vassago.
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You said "The UK has been dealing with terrorists for centuries now. I can't imagine that you all would be that easily shaken."
You didn't say "all of you in the UK", so it looked like a generalized response. My bad :P
Oxnary - Our government didn't go nuts. If they did, they would have attacked the next day, with disregard to everything. They waited quite a long time before they assaulted (4 months or so, wasn't it?). Granted, they should have planned more, but still. They didn't 'go nuts'.
I'm glad they weren't able to do more, but its sad that it happened at all. Condolences to all the people who lost loved ones
No, Luke the Sandpeople don't shoot precisely, only the Empire shoots precisely -Obiwan Kenobi
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fucking lie, they only ever shot leia. the other times they were 5 feet off.
fi know of lots of people in london, but none of them are hurt i dont think so thats good.
i agree. if we could throw all the palestines into the sea, israel would be very nice. look! no one to fight.
but not everything is so black and white when you are not a fanatic. our goverments are not fanatics, fortunately. so we dont kill them, but we dont agree. we diplomatically are trying to meet them somewhere halfway, supposedly, and behind the curtains - and believe me on this - all goverments of "good guys" are hunting their asses down with their special. israel too, and most likely your own countries best special forces. dont be naive. your nation was naive, and what you got was a world war. twice.
you already got your war, if you didnt notice.
and Irritant, what "race" are you talking about ?
[/ QUOTE ]O.k, not "race" but "group".
I'm just saying that if we(western cultures) were really "the great satan" that the terrorists make us out to be, or if Bush/Blair were really like Hitler or Stalin, that they would not exist to carry out their acts. They would have long since been dealt with in a less than humane manor.
Besides, what their actions do is push us more into a dictatorship, if one western country really reached a full dictatorship, a police state as portrayed in 1984, it'd be goodbye to anyone who even slightly looks like a threat. They're already detaining arab-looking people without charges, imagine what if this was true despotism. Those people would be round up and shot. And the dictator wouldn't spare anyone, they'd just outlaw Islam and commit another genocide. Imagine what if the US was headed by a nearly invincible government that was not bound by any law and no longer controlled by democracy. Noone could stop them from commiting large scale genocide, they'd exterminate the middle east and seize its ressources. Think Star Wars with an armada of death stars and no Luke Skywalker.
But I guess that's kinda inappropriate to discuss in this thread.
Some real news and information for you, Hope you find it usefull
http://www.bbc.co.uk/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2005/london_explosions/default.stm
Initial BBC report
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4659093.stm
Sky News:
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1188273,00.html
Liveblog showing the chain of events:
http://acrosstheatlantic.com/WordPress/index.php/2005/07/07/newsflash-explosions-in-central-london/
Hope this helps.
Scott
Scott, I for one find the Union Flag rather Vulgar. We generally aren't a nation of flag waving fanatics.
9/11/01
10/12/02
3/11/04
7//7/05
oh, joy...i've been waiting for this, just glad it wasn't as bad as it could have been...
33 dead, 7 at one, 21 from a second and 5 from a third. unknown number on the bus.
as the london mayor said, these people killed ordinary working innocents. christians and muslims. jews and hindus. black and white. nothing can justify that.
6 years of the nazis and the blitz didn't crack london, these jokers won't.
3/11/04"
What happened on these dates? I assume one is the attack on Spain, whats the other one?
as for for the whole great satan thing, part of the problem is that many of these countries have alot of constant propaganda like we have here as well and when some action taken by our countries takes the lives of their citizens,the extremist there point to that and say "see what they did,they are the great satan" and over time good people seeing that and hearing the propaganda begin to believe it and moderates turn to extremist. just like when something like that happens to us there are people in this country who make a living at spewing hate use these actions as fuel to support their extremist views and sell that to the more oderate people in our society.
that type of propaganda on both sides just fuels apathy,anger and fear.
and the cycle continues
"10/12/02
3/11/04"
What happened on these dates? I assume one is the attack on Spain, whats the other one?
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October 12th was the Bali Bombings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali_bombings and March 11th was the attack in Madrid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_March_2004_Madrid_attacks
I just read the statement from those terrorists... Man, what a bunch of delusional wankers. "massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan". Pah, they've seen nothing! Would they prefer if the Russians invaded Iraq?
And do those idiots really believe that attacking other worshippers of the same god is the will of their god? Man, I guess you could almost wipe out terrorism if you handed out some intelligence in those circles. No wonder that their countries of origin have an average IQ around 85.
What we really need is politicians pointing out to these people what morons they are and how insignificant they are in the grand scheme of things in order to make people here feel better and the terrorists feel worse. But that wouldn't keep the public terrorized and would make them more critical of all that stupid "anti-terror" legislation that pushes us closer to despotism so you don't see politicians "cheering up" the populace.
Terrorists are fucking stupid. And because of those idiots innocent people have to die. It's a sad world.
---
BTW I can only suggest that everyone who can should see the BBC trilogy 'Power of Nightmares'. It pretty much sums up the current situation of both sides.
Fighting strict religious laws/commands with their own laws/commands sounds pretty savvy to me. Oh if it was only as simple has having every bus driver wear a pork chop necklace, think of the lives we could save =(
KDR, I agree with most of what you are saying, but I still think its suicide to hold a gun to the most holy city they know. Even so much as a hint of someone pointing a finger at Mecca would be enough to drive millions to pick the flag of martyrdom. Also I am not so sure its a "holy" war as much as a "we are angry we are not in power, we are using religion as a thin disguise" for war. If it was a full on holy war why don't we see key Christian monuments attacked? Why the trade centers when Rome is closer and much more of a religious target? Why train stations and busses when there are churches on every street corner?
I think England's stiff upper lip attitude is what the rest of the world needs to adopt. It's not that they don't care and don't hurt but they know better than to give a terrorist the one thing the crave and seek out the most. I applaud them for at least having the sense to put on a brave front.
Stiff upper lip my arse, that's just a stupid term. A better term would be "Lack of knee jerk reaction due to previous experience"
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yep dont think we will see any legislation passed which was written dropped in the PM's mailbox in the middle of the night and passed without a majority of the members of the House of Commons reading it or debating at length .
r.
I´ll go with what rick emplyed. London has expierenced that before and that also explaind my mums calm reaction to my phonecall this morning asking her if she had heard what was going on.
"What really, IRA ?"
KDR does make one good point. The people who commit these acts are completely retarded.
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I think we can ALL agree on that one.
I really don't know why these people declare themselves as believers of Islam and then go and do such terrible things. I mean there must be another version they've been taught if they think what they do is approved by the creator ><;
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Matter of interpretation. Our history is full of holy christian crusades, inquision, burning and torturing of innocents and murdering of non believers and cultures that didn't want to accept our way.
Just need to read up on our own history to understand how these people work. Our predecesors managed to make all their action sound justified too.
We haven't completely changed either, with the difference that oil and money are the new gods in the holy war against terrorism. Sadly, you always end up killing more innocents than terrorists.
And there's still a lot of other religious based racism and other malism in the west.
Matter of interpretation. Our history is full of holy christian crusades, inquision, burning and torturing of innocents and murdering of non believers and cultures that didn't want to accept our way.
Just need to read up on our own history to understand how these people work. Our predecesors managed to make all their action sound justified too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, and Im glad to see that notion put forth. Islam started around the 6th century A.D. and since been if not opressed by at least earnestly nuicenced by Christian folk. As such their spiritual/religious/socitial evolution is at least 800 hundred years younger than their Christian counter part.
The Catholic church reigned in the Dark Ages. The ludicris acts of the many crusades were nothing short of evil as was the inquistion. Then the white man's burden of Colonial Imperialism set the world wrong in so many ways a list would exceed the character limit in this board. Then of course the Cold War, which was not as much a burden to either the US or USSR as it was to the countries between them.
All that said terrorism is an evil that must be addressed and Im confident that this will only strengthen the resolve of the Brit's.
Its sad to find that many fanatics are just generally troubled or frustrated and often times these frustrations are the result of the environment and living situations that they exist in. These same subdued people that dont know much about their religion and who are generally upset with something are easy targets for someone with an agenda. So following other peoples interpretations of a faith they cannot fully understand and finding a scapegoat for their adversity seems to be something that makes sense.
Al Quada is a group of people that seeks to enlist those people that are afraid that their way of is in jeopardy. Most of these people are not educated as mentioned earlier, and will do anything for beliefs that someone else has interpreted for them.
The principal stated aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Bin Laden has also said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.
The beliefs these people fight for are to dispel many western beliefs, yet the groups leaders themselves contradict what they teach. Osama bin Laden for example has millions of dollars and was educated at Harvard. His top officials are all well educated and come from well-to-do families. The network they run is faceted and broken up so not even its own supporters and soldiers know how many people belong to the Al Queda organization. A few people pulling all the strings
Oh and in April, 2004, bin Laden offered a truce to Europe, saying that al-Qaeda would not attack any country, with the exception of the U.S., that withdrew its troops from the Islamic world within three months. European leaders quickly rejected the offer.
Most terrorist attacks against western countries are in retaliation to the west and its influence over the rest of the world. The US is one of the youngest and one of the most influential nations in the world and as a result, was targeted for a terrorist attack. The UK is no different and also lends its support to the US and that would be reason enough to retaliate against such that country.
As for contradictions
What was interesting though is that the terrorists that hijacked the planes and crashed them into US buildings were almost all from Kuwait, and this was in part because there are many US citizens there that occupy many of the jobs in that country. These people were also well educated and could not get jobs in their own country because of US intrusion.
The US supplied many Afghan soldiers with the weapons that they currently use against us. These weapons were supplied to them so that they could drive out the Soviets when they invaded Afghanistan in the mid 80s.
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you, but many peoples find Western countries to be very intrusive and overly influential. I can only imagine that many terrorist leaders feel that the more dominant countries tend to lobby themselves to others nations to get the resources they need, much in the same way corporations use lobbyists to force things to their favor.
Some thoughts as to the emerging political debate in the thread:
1) I disagree with a couple of you that think the perpetrators are retards. I know it helps to think of them that way ( and yes, I do despise anyone that commits murderous cowardly acts like these ), but co-ordinated attacks like these do actually require planning, intelligence ( of both kinds ) and conviction. They are not retards, but they are brainwashed into thinking that they are doing the 'right' thing in the eyes of their 'religion', 'people' and 'cause'.
2) On the subject of religion, Im not so convinced that it's as much at the heart of things as a lot of you seem to think. Vig makes this point quite well. They are driven to these acts by hate. Yes, a few fundamentals might see this is a jihad, but quite honestly I think a lot of these nutters see it from more of a rich V poor, David V Goliath kind of perspective. The statement that is reported to have come from Al Qaeda suggests that this is vengeance for the 'massacres' happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm not saying that religion isn't central to how these people think, but I just wonder If a lot of it isn't more of a more simplistic anti-west, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist perspective than the suggested 'we must kill christians at all costs' notion. Anyone who's ever spent any time in central London ,( and that would include these terrorists ) and wandered about would quickly realize that it is a cultural melting pot. If as exactly just happened you killed 37 people randomly in central London, I wonder how many actual practising christians you would take out? Probably not many. If they haven't figured that out, then perhaps they are retards after all.
My sympathy and prayers go out to the families and survivors, and my respect goes out to the people who are staying strong through this whole incident.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050707/325/fmw5r.html
EW YORK (Reuters) - London was the scene of carnage on Thursday after a series of deadly blasts but American R&B crooner Omarion, who suffered no injury or inconvenience, wants people to pray for him.
That just makes me sick to my stomach, it just bares no respect and an unwavering dillusion of grandeur.
Blair takes his time to find the right words, takes short breaks and talks all calm. And then there's Bush who rattles on, doesn't take any breaks to think and therefor fumbles with words and makes mistakes.
I was in London for business until Tuesday night. Glad I left on the right day because it must have been a pain to find a cab to get to the airport.
honestly i dont know the education and history of every
terrorist out there, but at least from what I know of what happens is middle east islamic countries, people are being brainwashed from age 0 to hate. cartoon shows for kids show an american and an israeli waking up, picking up their guns and going to hunt little poor arab kids. This is absord, but absolutely true. you won't believe the propaganda these people are under since they are kids. so, what do you expect?
terror organizations pay young palestine women to give birth to kids for them. the mother gets a lot of money, and the baby is handed out as a tool for the organization. is she acting out of education? religeon? or is she just poor and needs money? in any case, you end up with 5 years old kids run around carrying bombs and you can imagine the rest. education isnt even a factor here.
What's happened to the enemy that last two times that they attack both the U.S and Britain on their soils?
Terrorists are more like the resistance, they are decentralized and have no clear structure. No base of operations you could take out. That's the problem. We might know where they are approximately but that's the best we can do, they blend in with the civilians and live in civil areas. I.e. you don't know who to target. Of course they could handle it like they did in Vietnam, if it moves it's a valid target but that's not something we're going to do these days. Terrorists are more like criminals than soldiers, you'd need the police, not the army to take care of them. Which is probably why there's so much emphasis on building up Iraq and Afghanistan, once the country is built up you can use the local police force to infiltrate and eliminate terrorist cells.
Here is proof of an utter tool:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050707/325/fmw5r.html
EW YORK (Reuters) - London was the scene of carnage on Thursday after a series of deadly blasts but American R&B crooner Omarion, who suffered no injury or inconvenience, wants people to pray for him.
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It's funny how they point out the fact that he is American. If he was really all that big of a "star" you won't have to point that fact out. So why did they print it? Oh right I remember now all Americans are inconsiderate A-holes who only care about themselves... Well I guess I will remember to pray for only the dead and injuried, forget about anyone that might suffer any kind of emotional shock from just being in london at the time, ESPECIALLY if they are pig headed AMERICAN R&B no-names. I agree it was a pretty stupid thing for his PR guy to say but the article is written in a way that fosters just that much more hate for America, way to go allies
On the subject of religion, Im not so convinced that it's as much at the heart of things as a lot of you seem to think. Vig makes this point quite well. They are driven to these acts by hate. Yes, a few fundamentals might see this is a jihad, but quite honestly I think a lot of these nutters see it from more of a rich V poor, David V Goliath kind of perspective. The statement that is reported to have come from Al Qaeda suggests that this is vengeance for the 'massacres' happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm not saying that religion isn't central to how these people think, but I just wonder If a lot of it isn't more of a more simplistic anti-west, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist perspective than the suggested 'we must kill christians at all costs' notion. Anyone who's ever spent any time in central London ,( and that would include these terrorists ) and wandered about would quickly realize that it is a cultural melting pot. If as exactly just happened you killed 37 people randomly in central London, I wonder how many actual practising christians you would take out? Probably not many. If they haven't figured that out, then perhaps they are retards after all.
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According to bin Laden's 1998 fatwa (religious decree), it is the duty of Muslims around the world to wage holy war on the U.S., American citizens, and Jews. Muslims who do not heed this call are declared apostates (people who have forsaken their faith).
All of this is in regard to one mans beliefs, views and interpretations on things and how well he has managed to make others see his vision.
I suspect that the reasoning and beliefs with religion and politics are so vague and mixed that one can only wonder what the individuals in these groups fight for exactly. Theres a lot of rich vs. poor going on and it can be assessed that these people see the US and UK as evil nations, but I do think that most of the reasons for their actions stem from religious roots that will eventually lead to more political factors. Most of these attacks are meant to strike at the nation and not a religious group directly. It can be assumed that the victims will hold some religious standing anyway.
And that leads to:
Al-Qaeda differs significantly from more traditional terrorist organizations. It does not depend on the sponsorship of a political state, and, unlike the PLO or the IRA, it is not defined by a particular conflict. Instead, al-Qaeda operates as a franchise. It provides financial and logistical support, as well as name recognition to other terrorist groups.
That certainly caters to a whole plethora of candidates that you would like to have bolster your ranks as well as increase the notoriety and credibility of your group and its beliefs. Western countries view these people as bugs to stamp out, others may view them as the underdogs that will never give up.
And while these people aren't dumb, they are still very misguided and yes, most of these attacks are based upon hatred. But religion is used as a medium to justify these acts as well and it is a lot easier to convince many more people to do something with such a strong and unifying motivator as religion despite the obvious political agenda driving all of this. I think it is also a lot easier to unite a whole number of peoples with religion than it would be through politics alone (the obvious contradiction to that would be the US and UK; 2 nations that are united because its many nationalities and faiths view themselves as people of one nation).
these people are desperate in that their political and military power is virtually non-existant, thus they have no possibility to defend themselves let alone strike back other than using guerilla tactics. and guerilla tactics, that's what i'd call this. how desperate has someone to be to blow him/herself up to at least get a little revenge?
brainwashing: in one country brainwashing might be handled by religious leaders, in other countries it's the politicians and media who does that job.
in any case, the effects of what these people propagate as the truth show up in our societies. so, most of us probably
have been brainwashed since our youth to believe one thing or another. maybe some palestinian kid watches tv shows which show things as described by shotgun. but how many movies or videogames have you experienced, where evil arabs threatened the world and were finally defeated by cool western special forces or secret service agents?
fyi: over here it seems to me that since quite a few years we are being brainwashed to dislike the US. not that the US politics seem to have changed significantly over the last decades to justify that. but definitely the climate in the media has changed and it starts to show in our society.
anyway, condolences to anyone who got hurt in these incidents. but as always, more "war on terror" will mean more of these kinds of incidents in the future.
afaik there is no successful strategy to defeating a guerilla force and it would definitely be better to finally ease relationships with the middle east instead of trying to punish someone - once more it will hit the wrong persons like in london.
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Here is proof of an utter tool:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050707/325/fmw5r.html
EW YORK (Reuters) - London was the scene of carnage on Thursday after a series of deadly blasts but American R&B crooner Omarion, who suffered no injury or inconvenience, wants people to pray for him.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's funny how they point out the fact that he is American. If he was really all that big of a "star" you won't have to point that fact out. So why did they print it? Oh right I remember now all Americans are inconsiderate A-holes who only care about themselves... Well I guess I will remember to pray for only the dead and injuried, forget about anyone that might suffer any kind of emotional shock from just being in london at the time, ESPECIALLY if they are pig headed AMERICAN R&B no-names. I agree it was a pretty stupid thing for his PR guy to say but the article is written in a way that fosters just that much more hate for America, way to go allies
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Aw c'mon Vig! The guy was an UTTER fucktard. I dont think the story was reported in any other way than factual?! His nationality was mentioned to stress the point that he was a visitor. I have no idea how this is fostering hate for Americans. That's a pretty extreme conclusion you've reached there I think.
Now THIS is fostering hate. There are some seriously sick people in this world, and unfortunately some of them are on 'our' side:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/featured/20050707_subway-bomb.html