So I think overall the younger artists will continue to do this, and it's a good thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im not sure how it good or bad. I guess Im saying I don't see how your post points one way or the other concretely. You give one example of a older artists you had a problem with, and go to discuss the overtime you put in, and link that to younger artist and being a good thing. It just doesn't seem to make a reasonable conclusion.
[/ QUOTE ]
Two different issues.
Issue 1: I was echoing DaZ about how film artists are often glorified without good cause. Game artists are often not regarded as highly as film artists, a bogus opinion IMO.
Issue 2: I gained a great deal from working long hours at the start. And I don't think young excited artists will change, they'll continue to do this. If prevented from staying afterhours at work, due to HR policies ofr whatever, they'll often go home and do the same thing on their own, if possible. They're generally young and single and really into improving their art.
Encouraging that mindset is a good thing, IMO. Only thing is, management needs to be on top of things and not schedule with that overtime in mind. It should be considered completely voluntary, and clearly communicated as such.
If you work on work material in that time, OK that's nice, and the work shouldn't be tossed out the next day. But it shouldn't be planned for either, it should in no way be "expected."
I didn't mean to link the two issues. Every case is different. Some artists are excellent, and some are not, doesn't have to do with age. But generally there is a direct correlation between age, experience, and capability.
[ QUOTE ]
Issue 2: I gained a great deal from working long hours at the start. And I don't think young excited artists will change, they'll continue to do this. If prevented from staying afterhours at work, due to HR policies ofr whatever, they'll often go home and do the same thing on their own, if possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
But wont they then work on their own art versus company art?
[ QUOTE ]
They're generally young and single and really into improving their art.
[/ QUOTE ]
By that implication, your saying that older artists are not also into improving their art. I also plenty of single or without children "older" people. But further on you mention "But generally there is a direct correlation between age, experience, and capability.". Which kinda implies the opposite of what you just said. So Im more confused than ever. What is it that younger artist have that make them more capable? All I can see you mentioning is overtime. So is it with overtime, or just the time working/improving on ones art? That make younger artist the "good thing" in your book? It something again we all do after hours anyways.
[ QUOTE ]
But wont they then work on their own art versus company art?
[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on the artist. I have often seen those who do the latter.
[ QUOTE ]
By that implication, your saying that older artists are not also into improving their art.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not implying that at all.
[ QUOTE ]
But further on you mention "But generally there is a direct correlation between age, experience, and capability.". Which kinda implies the opposite of what you just said. So Im more confused than ever.
[/ QUOTE ]
Experience gained on the job, with multiple kinds of software, day to day working with clients, artists, HR, management, schedules, deliverables, etc.... is very different from experience gained from hands-on art generation. That's the kind of experience I think older artists bring to the table.
[ QUOTE ]
What is it that younger artist have that make them more capable? All I can see you mentioning is overtime. Which is that overtime, or just working/improving on ones art? Something again we all do after hours anyways.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not more capable, just a different approach to learning. In my experience, the entry-level employees are generally fresh out of school. They're used to working late nights to finish projects. I certainly was. I grew to like it, and did much of my best work in the late hours when I could really get into a groove and concentrate. I've since changed, but I remember what it was like.
I'm saying management needs to be smart about how to keep people growing without trampling on their lifestyles. If an entry-level artist wants to work long hours, and it doesn't interfere with their performance the next day, then they should be allowed to do it. It just can't be made a requisite.
But on the other hand, experienced artists need to stay on their toes. If you stagnate, you'll end up dead meat. Some artists don't want to hang out at the office after hours, and that's entirely fine. But for their own career health they do need to figure out when and where to keep honing their skills.
Ive no idea why you're talking about ego Oxy. I was just discussing some really bad hires. What exactly does that have to do with my ego? Are you saying that I am egotistical?
No not at all. Im saying its subjective. Thats why I think such terms shouldnt be used. They are counter productive to all..
God.. Do I sound like HR?
BTW: EricChadwick, I like to stay up late also. Most times I remember in school though with what you mention was from delaying and time mismanagement of projects. In fact most artists I know had to do these hours because of this. Don't you think that maybe (in part) its misuse of time presented? If so, that time wont help. Teaching them to work smarter, not harder will.
What on earth are you talking about ego for?! I never once mentioned ego. I said he was a ten year ILM veteran that couldn't paint. The other guy was an Art thief.
They were bad hires because they couldn't do the job to a satisfactory degree of quality.
No I don't see the difference, and what the HELL are you talking about? Are you speaking from experience or just jumping into the fray? I think the latter.
This is a thread by a veteran, about trends he noticed, further backed my more veterans discussing trends they have seen. Then you jump in and start talking about egos and youth and old age, blah blah blah. Why are you so adament about something you have no real world knowledge about?
Your response above poop is what is called ego in my subjective view.
[ QUOTE ]
An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit.
[/ QUOTE ]
And is what is causing part of the problem between vetrans and "noobs".
Daz, I never mentioned your name. You started asking me some q's, so I was trying to show (for those that did) that ego wasn't the Hubris that got the people they mentioned fired. It was the lack of knowledge. Anyhow, I was trying to help by showing the flaw in such thinking as its counter productive and can be even seen as hypocritical. I failed. But I had to try. I bow out gracefully now.
Hey, wow I'm actually posting on this board for once instead of lurking.
I just felt I should really emphasize how important "environment" artists are really becoming.
I'm going to use myself for example, I got hired pretty randomly to an independent game / technology studio last September that was expanding. I wasn't actually even looking for a game artist job at the time! I had absolutely no experience, and a very small portfolio with no professional experience or publishing at the time.
What I *DID* have is good proven solid work in my portfolio (what little there was), great conventional art skills and texturing ability (at least I like to think...) and plenty of experience in convex geometry modelling techniques (aka Level Design) & some experience with Normal mapping. I am by no means some exceptional artist at all, but I fit the bill pretty good for what was needed and it's been an arrangement I'm glad I didn't miss. (Angry Freelance Graphic Designer with no money to happy environmental artist with salary & benefits? Sure np!). The timing and circumstances were on my side in that case...
But really what I wanted to post and what I've been trying to lead up to is, oddly enough, I got SEVERAL more job offers from some small and one large studio two months after getting hired. What did they want? Environmental Artists! I'm pretty happy with this original job so I turned them down, but all them had in common good architecture skills (all those years of Autocad paid off I guess), good texturing ability, and EXPERIENCE in normal & parralax mapping.
So yeah, I can personally confirm the first post in this thread that this is a booming area of speciality for those of you who enjoy this.
Also, I wanted to note on the "Noob" versus "Vet" thing from my personal experiences. I think this has a lot to do with individual personalities and the job environment your in.
I work with a bunch of artists who've been in the industry so long that I remember playing games they worked on in the 80s, and I'm defiantely the youngests and "noobiest" artist in the dept. These guys have AAA titles under their belts like WOW, Guild Wars, the Tribes Series, and many others just to name a few recent ones and their depth of knowledge runs circles around me, but they are all really cool and treat me like an equal and help me out and things run smoother that way, so I think it has a lot to do with the environment and artists. If we were always working under constant pressure, deadlines, and shitstorms, I'm sure the atmosphere would be a lot less friendly and my questions would be a lot less appreciated.
And PS, getting shit together for GDC is hell. ugh god.
[ QUOTE ]
We hired a guy from Pixar for a FMV animation job awhile back, his name was in the credits for Toy Story. The guy really wowed many of the artists with his connections and tales, but when it came down to the job at hand, he couldn't follow direction at all, couldn't animate simple camera moves, couldn't get the hang of a simple IK rig. He knew animation theory, but apparently not in practice.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the ILM guy, was that he couldn't paint to save his life. And had no clue about working under realtime constraints.
[/ QUOTE ]
This confuses the crap out of me. You'd think people from ILM and Pixar would be qualified to work in the game industry? Makes you wonder what kind of stroking they did to get their job?
Which comes down to how much of getting work is just networking?......yes, I know you get jobs by interviewing, but it looks like no one looked at the portfolio. So, it looks like they got hired because of personality and being gregarious rather then portfolio and performance.
NoSeRider: Yep. Unfortunately, it's not just people from the film industry... a number of "veteran" game artists seem to be simply "hangers-on" who have merely survived by slapping together last-minute efforts and riding on the backs of others' success. Sometimes even a published game 5 years ago will go towards keeping someone in the industry who hasn't done jack on improving their work since then.
oXYnary: Yes, bow out "gracefully". Off you go. Cheers.
Despite the risk of more disagreement, I hope I can inform you a little.
[ QUOTE ]
Oxy: ... so I was trying to show (for those that did) that ego wasn't the Hubris that got the people they mentioned fired. It was the lack of knowledge. Anyhow, I was trying to help by showing the flaw in such thinking as its counter productive and can be even seen as hypocritical.
[/ QUOTE ]
In my estimation the Pixar animator did have an ego problem. He balked when directed to do tasks he didn't feel were the right artistic choices. Questioning is expected, so the animator can better understand the task being asked of him/her, but refusing to ultimately do the work is unacceptable. Even when you disagree with it, ultimately you are in a for-pay position, and must provide the services you advertise.
There's a difference between healthy and unhealthy ego. To be an effective manager/director, I have to be able to see the difference. That's not hypocritical in my view, it's definitely productive if it helps keep the work moving.
Most artists use their egos to their advantage, investing themselves in their work, promoting themselves, etc. But there is a limit when you're working for others.
Dunno if that helps, had to try. Maybe people just need time and experience to learn these things, maybe they can't be taught. I prefer to think the latter, but hell you gotta plan for the former...
Can I say something? Regarding Ego's, I too witnessed this but from my perspective it was withy Lucas Arts Employees and most of them were quite yonng. Perhaps the ego thing can happen with artist who work for a very well known company and thing they got it made.
"This confuses the crap out of me. You'd think people from ILM and Pixar would be qualified to work in the game industry? Makes you wonder what kind of stroking they did to get their job?"
Why would you think that he could do the job of making characters for videogames because he worked at ILM? A modeling job at ILM wouldn't have given him experience with painting textures and even If It did it would have been diffuse textures and not the kind of amazing work of Art textures you'd see from Shotgun, Peppi or Bobo.
It transpirse that all he did at ILM for ten years was wrap a nurbs surface around digitized heads. So yeah, he of course couldn't paint textures nor barely model in polygons. It was absolutely a case of management howling "oh my god this guys from ILM he must ROXORZ he cn teech US hoWE 2 mek GAmez look FOTOreel"
At 32, I'm older then most college grads and up and commers, but just shot off an email to EA Tiburon for a entry level position or internship to gain experience. I've already shipped one mod with Threewave CTF for Quake3.. But, lost all my 3d work recently, have to redo it now Anyhow, This would be my first entry into the professional field, I'm looking to actually make money with my art instead of working as IT support as I have been for the last 10 years.
[ QUOTE ]
60 people 'let go' at EA LA today. Many of whom pretty much gave up their summer working insanely hard on several projects. I know I was there.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was there at Gnomon when 2 of the EA LA employees that were doing Lord of the Rings anounced they'd be working 7 days a week 12 hours a day to finish project for crunch time.
Project done. People get dumped.
Soul still have a job? He was working on Lord of the Rings?
So does anyone have some tips, techniques, things to watch out for in environmental modeling? It makes me feel like I'm going to PUKE just contemplating scrapping the years of character work and starting from scratch with environments but I really don't like animating and I can't seem to progress past "good but not good enough" on my characters so I guess I'm sunk
FUUUUUCK!
Justin: If characters are what you really want to do, then keep doing them. It's not like games are going to stop having characters in them. Don't change because people are saying it's easier to get a job doing environments. Do what you want, not what's easy. However, if your priority is just getting a job, then do some environments. And it's not like you just wasted years of your life doing characters, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Many of the skills needed to make cool and interesting characters also apply to making cool and interesting environments. But if you think you're already sunk then just pack up the computer and get a job at Starbucks. I hear managers make pretty good money. Attitude is just as important as skill in this, or any other, industry.
Replies
oXYnary:[ QUOTE ]
EricChadwick sez:
So I think overall the younger artists will continue to do this, and it's a good thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im not sure how it good or bad. I guess Im saying I don't see how your post points one way or the other concretely. You give one example of a older artists you had a problem with, and go to discuss the overtime you put in, and link that to younger artist and being a good thing. It just doesn't seem to make a reasonable conclusion.
[/ QUOTE ]
Two different issues.
Issue 1: I was echoing DaZ about how film artists are often glorified without good cause. Game artists are often not regarded as highly as film artists, a bogus opinion IMO.
Issue 2: I gained a great deal from working long hours at the start. And I don't think young excited artists will change, they'll continue to do this. If prevented from staying afterhours at work, due to HR policies ofr whatever, they'll often go home and do the same thing on their own, if possible. They're generally young and single and really into improving their art.
Encouraging that mindset is a good thing, IMO. Only thing is, management needs to be on top of things and not schedule with that overtime in mind. It should be considered completely voluntary, and clearly communicated as such.
If you work on work material in that time, OK that's nice, and the work shouldn't be tossed out the next day. But it shouldn't be planned for either, it should in no way be "expected."
I didn't mean to link the two issues. Every case is different. Some artists are excellent, and some are not, doesn't have to do with age. But generally there is a direct correlation between age, experience, and capability.
Have to toot your horn a bit to be recognized and show you know something.
Issue 2: I gained a great deal from working long hours at the start. And I don't think young excited artists will change, they'll continue to do this. If prevented from staying afterhours at work, due to HR policies ofr whatever, they'll often go home and do the same thing on their own, if possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
But wont they then work on their own art versus company art?
[ QUOTE ]
They're generally young and single and really into improving their art.
[/ QUOTE ]
By that implication, your saying that older artists are not also into improving their art. I also plenty of single or without children "older" people. But further on you mention "But generally there is a direct correlation between age, experience, and capability.". Which kinda implies the opposite of what you just said. So Im more confused than ever. What is it that younger artist have that make them more capable? All I can see you mentioning is overtime. So is it with overtime, or just the time working/improving on ones art? That make younger artist the "good thing" in your book? It something again we all do after hours anyways.
But wont they then work on their own art versus company art?
[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on the artist. I have often seen those who do the latter.
[ QUOTE ]
By that implication, your saying that older artists are not also into improving their art.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not implying that at all.
[ QUOTE ]
But further on you mention "But generally there is a direct correlation between age, experience, and capability.". Which kinda implies the opposite of what you just said. So Im more confused than ever.
[/ QUOTE ]
Experience gained on the job, with multiple kinds of software, day to day working with clients, artists, HR, management, schedules, deliverables, etc.... is very different from experience gained from hands-on art generation. That's the kind of experience I think older artists bring to the table.
[ QUOTE ]
What is it that younger artist have that make them more capable? All I can see you mentioning is overtime. Which is that overtime, or just working/improving on ones art? Something again we all do after hours anyways.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not more capable, just a different approach to learning. In my experience, the entry-level employees are generally fresh out of school. They're used to working late nights to finish projects. I certainly was. I grew to like it, and did much of my best work in the late hours when I could really get into a groove and concentrate. I've since changed, but I remember what it was like.
I'm saying management needs to be smart about how to keep people growing without trampling on their lifestyles. If an entry-level artist wants to work long hours, and it doesn't interfere with their performance the next day, then they should be allowed to do it. It just can't be made a requisite.
But on the other hand, experienced artists need to stay on their toes. If you stagnate, you'll end up dead meat. Some artists don't want to hang out at the office after hours, and that's entirely fine. But for their own career health they do need to figure out when and where to keep honing their skills.
God.. Do I sound like HR?
BTW: EricChadwick, I like to stay up late also. Most times I remember in school though with what you mention was from delaying and time mismanagement of projects. In fact most artists I know had to do these hours because of this. Don't you think that maybe (in part) its misuse of time presented? If so, that time wont help. Teaching them to work smarter, not harder will.
You can try to teach smarter work habits, but people are people.
If the artist isn't on-schedule, that's a different problem than how they want to organize their time.
See the difference?
They were bad hires because they couldn't do the job to a satisfactory degree of quality.
Where the heck does ego enter into this????
This is a thread by a veteran, about trends he noticed, further backed my more veterans discussing trends they have seen. Then you jump in and start talking about egos and youth and old age, blah blah blah. Why are you so adament about something you have no real world knowledge about?
[ QUOTE ]
An exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit.
[/ QUOTE ]
And is what is causing part of the problem between vetrans and "noobs".
Daz, I never mentioned your name. You started asking me some q's, so I was trying to show (for those that did) that ego wasn't the Hubris that got the people they mentioned fired. It was the lack of knowledge. Anyhow, I was trying to help by showing the flaw in such thinking as its counter productive and can be even seen as hypocritical. I failed. But I had to try. I bow out gracefully now.
I just felt I should really emphasize how important "environment" artists are really becoming.
I'm going to use myself for example, I got hired pretty randomly to an independent game / technology studio last September that was expanding. I wasn't actually even looking for a game artist job at the time! I had absolutely no experience, and a very small portfolio with no professional experience or publishing at the time.
What I *DID* have is good proven solid work in my portfolio (what little there was), great conventional art skills and texturing ability (at least I like to think...) and plenty of experience in convex geometry modelling techniques (aka Level Design) & some experience with Normal mapping. I am by no means some exceptional artist at all, but I fit the bill pretty good for what was needed and it's been an arrangement I'm glad I didn't miss. (Angry Freelance Graphic Designer with no money to happy environmental artist with salary & benefits? Sure np!). The timing and circumstances were on my side in that case...
But really what I wanted to post and what I've been trying to lead up to is, oddly enough, I got SEVERAL more job offers from some small and one large studio two months after getting hired. What did they want? Environmental Artists! I'm pretty happy with this original job so I turned them down, but all them had in common good architecture skills (all those years of Autocad paid off I guess), good texturing ability, and EXPERIENCE in normal & parralax mapping.
So yeah, I can personally confirm the first post in this thread that this is a booming area of speciality for those of you who enjoy this.
Also, I wanted to note on the "Noob" versus "Vet" thing from my personal experiences. I think this has a lot to do with individual personalities and the job environment your in.
I work with a bunch of artists who've been in the industry so long that I remember playing games they worked on in the 80s, and I'm defiantely the youngests and "noobiest" artist in the dept. These guys have AAA titles under their belts like WOW, Guild Wars, the Tribes Series, and many others just to name a few recent ones and their depth of knowledge runs circles around me, but they are all really cool and treat me like an equal and help me out and things run smoother that way, so I think it has a lot to do with the environment and artists. If we were always working under constant pressure, deadlines, and shitstorms, I'm sure the atmosphere would be a lot less friendly and my questions would be a lot less appreciated.
And PS, getting shit together for GDC is hell. ugh god.
We hired a guy from Pixar for a FMV animation job awhile back, his name was in the credits for Toy Story. The guy really wowed many of the artists with his connections and tales, but when it came down to the job at hand, he couldn't follow direction at all, couldn't animate simple camera moves, couldn't get the hang of a simple IK rig. He knew animation theory, but apparently not in practice.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the ILM guy, was that he couldn't paint to save his life. And had no clue about working under realtime constraints.
[/ QUOTE ]
This confuses the crap out of me. You'd think people from ILM and Pixar would be qualified to work in the game industry? Makes you wonder what kind of stroking they did to get their job?
Which comes down to how much of getting work is just networking?......yes, I know you get jobs by interviewing, but it looks like no one looked at the portfolio. So, it looks like they got hired because of personality and being gregarious rather then portfolio and performance.
oXYnary: Yes, bow out "gracefully". Off you go. Cheers.
[ QUOTE ]
Oxy: ... so I was trying to show (for those that did) that ego wasn't the Hubris that got the people they mentioned fired. It was the lack of knowledge. Anyhow, I was trying to help by showing the flaw in such thinking as its counter productive and can be even seen as hypocritical.
[/ QUOTE ]
In my estimation the Pixar animator did have an ego problem. He balked when directed to do tasks he didn't feel were the right artistic choices. Questioning is expected, so the animator can better understand the task being asked of him/her, but refusing to ultimately do the work is unacceptable. Even when you disagree with it, ultimately you are in a for-pay position, and must provide the services you advertise.
There's a difference between healthy and unhealthy ego. To be an effective manager/director, I have to be able to see the difference. That's not hypocritical in my view, it's definitely productive if it helps keep the work moving.
Most artists use their egos to their advantage, investing themselves in their work, promoting themselves, etc. But there is a limit when you're working for others.
Dunno if that helps, had to try. Maybe people just need time and experience to learn these things, maybe they can't be taught. I prefer to think the latter, but hell you gotta plan for the former...
Why would you think that he could do the job of making characters for videogames because he worked at ILM? A modeling job at ILM wouldn't have given him experience with painting textures and even If It did it would have been diffuse textures and not the kind of amazing work of Art textures you'd see from Shotgun, Peppi or Bobo.
It transpirse that all he did at ILM for ten years was wrap a nurbs surface around digitized heads. So yeah, he of course couldn't paint textures nor barely model in polygons. It was absolutely a case of management howling "oh my god this guys from ILM he must ROXORZ he cn teech US hoWE 2 mek GAmez look FOTOreel"
Wish me luck.
Losing your work sucks, but building a new portfolio will give you a chance to really show what you can do.
So, I'll reiterate to Tubboy and anyone else not getting this:
Working tons of OT does not pay off, nor does it exemplify you from redundancy.
60 people 'let go' at EA LA today. Many of whom pretty much gave up their summer working insanely hard on several projects. I know I was there.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was there at Gnomon when 2 of the EA LA employees that were doing Lord of the Rings anounced they'd be working 7 days a week 12 hours a day to finish project for crunch time.
Project done. People get dumped.
Soul still have a job? He was working on Lord of the Rings?
FUUUUUCK!