Get a game job!
polycounter lvl 18
Hey guys and gals. I know there are a lot of people here who are eager to get into the game industry and I just wanted to give everyone a head's up about recent trends. Right now, there is a big demand for environmental artists. There are a lot studios advertising positions and from the indications I'm getting from people I'm speaking to there are even more people who intend to ramp up their hiring in 2-3 months.
This is the time of year where everything comes out of hibernation, the deals start getting signed, and teams start staffing up. If you're looking to break into the game industry, now is a really excellent time to do it. If you can demonstrate the ability to model/texture buildings, vegetation, and other miscellaneous models you have an extremely good shot at getting hired. If you can demonstrate the ability to do high poly/low poly/normal mapped environmental assets, you're going to be worth your weight in gold in 2 months, at the latest.
This is a fairly new specialized field. We've had general 3D artists in the past, some of who excelled at doing these types of things, but it's only in the past 2-3 years that I've seen companies specifically requesting 'environmental' artists.
There also seems to be a fairly big demand for senior character artists, people who can model and texture characters with a few years experience as well as a lot of people looking outside their teams for leads.
For future positions, I'm predicting that FX artists will come into demand and eventually Lighting artists. The industry seems to be moving towards speciliazation on the content creation side, and broad background/technical savyness on the lead/management side.
Anyone else have thoughts about this?
This is the time of year where everything comes out of hibernation, the deals start getting signed, and teams start staffing up. If you're looking to break into the game industry, now is a really excellent time to do it. If you can demonstrate the ability to model/texture buildings, vegetation, and other miscellaneous models you have an extremely good shot at getting hired. If you can demonstrate the ability to do high poly/low poly/normal mapped environmental assets, you're going to be worth your weight in gold in 2 months, at the latest.
This is a fairly new specialized field. We've had general 3D artists in the past, some of who excelled at doing these types of things, but it's only in the past 2-3 years that I've seen companies specifically requesting 'environmental' artists.
There also seems to be a fairly big demand for senior character artists, people who can model and texture characters with a few years experience as well as a lot of people looking outside their teams for leads.
For future positions, I'm predicting that FX artists will come into demand and eventually Lighting artists. The industry seems to be moving towards speciliazation on the content creation side, and broad background/technical savyness on the lead/management side.
Anyone else have thoughts about this?
Replies
For instance, I've been specializing in environmental art for the last few years, and have had no trouble getting those type of jobs when they come up. I generally show them exactly the kind of work they are looking for, which usually makes them confident that I can do the job.
Then, toward the end of the interview, they may ask for any other stuff that I have, and any other experience. I tell them that I have done character stuff, but it has not been my focus recently. I then show them my characters, sketches, and miscellaneous stuff, and whatever they think of them, they are usually just happy that I can demonstrate versatility.
Do you work anywhere?
Even character artists are generally expected to be able to map and texture, some companies are looking for character artists who can rig as well. I don't think this is a trend though, just wishful thinking on the companies part, but texturing ability is definitly part of the package.
Adam, yes I currently work for 2015 and I've been in the game industry for a little over 6 years, so I've seen some of the evolution and maturing first hand.
Anybody know what a ballpark salary for an entry level enviro artist is?
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This is a loaded question, but one that frequently comes up. Gamasutra did a survey in 2001 where they poled people working in the industry and put together an average salary for various positions and years of experience.
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010831/survey_01.htm
Salary greatly depends on the company, their current project and budget, location, the level of ability you demonstrate, how desperate they are to fill the position, how much demand there is for that position across the industry, how well you negotiate, and various other factors. The short answer is there is no set rate, but with the demand as high as it currently is and will be in the near future, you'll have a lot more bargaining power.
Good luck to those looking .
Thanks.
Specialization is the future wether people like it or not. Our industry is changing and growing fast, and next gen consoles are almost upon us. Teams will get bigger, and roles will become more specialized. I can pretty much guarantee it.
I'd strongly urge thinking about speciality now. At the studio Im at, there are allready dedicated character artists, character riggers, animators, env. artists, lighters, fx artists and UI artists.
OT sorry: Tub, stop promoting the notion that we must give up our lives for this job. The more people with your attitude that are out there the more companies will continue to ruin peoples lives. Take a step back. You make fricking videogames you're not a brain surgeon. It's not worth it.
I've only been in the Gaming industry 1.7 years and coming from a Environmental Artist view, It's allot of HARD, Dedicated Work and you really got to love it to do it because any other attitude will just make you feel unfulfilled if this is not the kind of art you want to produce. Plus, in some cases, it really helps to NOT be married. Having allot of free time for the milestones is almost an unsaid mandatory mentality unless you have one hell of an understanding WIFE. I've worked on the Star Wars Episode 3 game releasing this year and the last few millstones before completion are heavy and busy and you have to stay focused. My thinking is, love it, drink lots of coffee, and your set.
Good luck to those looking .
Thanks.
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I want to add my own thoughts to this...
Environmental art isn't necessarily hard. In most cases, it's pretty straightforward work. Non-organic modeling is frankly easier than organic modeling, and that's a good bulk of environmental art. That said, I think it does require more dedication and more patience. It also helps to have good communication skills as you'll often be dealing directly with level designers or game designers. So it's not harder, just requires a slightly different set of skills and ways of thinking.
It does require a certain level of commitment. Most people fresh into the industry have a rockstar or fan-boy attitude, and they're gunning for the 'cool' work, such as characters, weapons, or vehicles. But when it's all said and done, the thing that's seen and used 90% of the time in game is that rock the lowly environmental guy did.
You don't have to work yourself to death to survive in this industry, the key is to work smart and stay focused. Companies seem to be getting smarter about managing projects, which result in less cases of crunch time or worsh death marches. Occasional crunching is almost completely unavoidable at this point in time, the technology hasn't reached its final evolution and because of this the industry can't fully mature and has to constantly evolve to keep pace with the tech and player expectations. This however doesn't excuse weak management or unfocused workers, which contribute to the necessacity for crunching more often than other factors. The trend I'm seeing is that companies are coming to the realization that overworking their teams is actually counter-productive, more mistakes are made requiring more time to fix the mistakes as well as get the initial tasks completed. Health and morale decline and people leave to pursue other jobs with other companies.
There are definite warning signs to look out for, and there are plenty of companies who do get it right...so it is very possible to work in games and have a fairly normal life outside of work.
Trust me, when you turn 30 and are overweight and single and working crazy hours, you'll come around to my point of view. I did what you did, but boy do I regret it now.
quit being a headstrong kid and listen to your elders
Also, What part of this whole conversqation indicates that I am not listening to my elders or those who have experience. This thread does point towards the young and fresh out of school types right? Generally I think that if its your first job, work your ass off and learn as much as possible. I am still Learning and working Hard. I'm only 25, I'm sure I'll tire of the long hours after about a year or 2.
ONCE YOU GET IN, WORK NORMAL HOURS.
If you work consistently long hours for no overtime pay, it'll do you no favours in the long run and not exemplify you from redundancy.
It will however, ruin your health, affect your relationships, and ultimately contribute to worsening the working conditions and ultimately lives of fellow industry employees.
Up to you though of course.
Scott
Scott
As long as I have loads of young "artists" that will basically sell themselves out for a gamejob, there will be low wages and no paid overtime.
Daz' example of the futility of being more-hardcore-than-thou is right on. Keep control over your life! Remember that crotchety old fuckers with much more wisdom than even the most sagely people on this forum always look back on their lives and wish they'd stopped to smell the roses, not that they'd worked harder.
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Gamasutra did a survey in 2001 where they poled people working in the industry and put together an average salary for various positions and years of experience.
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They do a survey every year. Here's the most recent: 2003 Salary Survey
Mal: Plus, youth and passion doesn't compete with time served by crotchety old fuckers when it comes to getting paid!
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Keep telling yourself that, over and over. 8-)
Experience doesn't mean as much as being able to get the job done. I have worked with a couple of 7 year veterans who were slow, outdated, didn't know how to pick up new tools, and hadn't used their time wisely to improve. Just "hanging around" doesn't ensure your usefullness. It's important to make the most of your time. I would rather work with someone relatively new to the industry who knows how to get stuff done and is trained in the latest workflows software and techniques, than a crotchety old guy who thinks that he doesn't need to keep up to speed because he is "wise and experienced".
Theres is no need no matter what to do overtime like mad.
In no way, and I realy mean, IN NO fucking WAY, will it pay off.
Example: My studio is on cruch right now. Fortunatley I have an art director who is very organized. He planned all assets needed for the specific environments, and the basic idea of what each environment was, and gave a bunch of "mini deadlines" for everything to be accomplished. Now everyone else is stressed causethe studio needs to hit alpha soon, but the artists are all taking their sweet time making final tweaks because we were organized. We still need to be there 12 hours a day, but we frequently take 2 hour breaks. I just go home and come back after dinner and play ut2004, the managment just wants to see bodies at desks. Bottom line: I agree with Daz. If you are organized, and the design doc is clear, you should be able to live a normal life while in the game industry.
have worked with a couple of 7 year veterans.
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Do you realize how odd that sounds? A veteran after 7 years? A dog lives longer then that.
Eh, I figure my drawing skills are more important then shifting some vertices around. Zbrush is something I should play with though.
My Maya teacher tells me, if you can draw, you can model. Artists have better grasps of 3 dimensionality.....then guys who geek over software.....literally, he said that.
Besides, most of the stuff made 5 years ago was bad low poly models....for games anyway.
On specialization ... I meant, I wouldn't advise anyone to specialize in effects, that's all. Consider it a very valuable detail. I've felt for a long time that the best approach is to specialize in one thing but be very good at something else. Modeler/texturer and modeler/animator are the obvious and time-honored combinations. At my current job, being at least dual-skilled is a minimum requirement.
Daz' example of the futility of being more-hardcore-than-thou is right on. Keep control over your life! Remember that crotchety old fuckers with much more wisdom than even the most sagely people on this forum always look back on their lives and wish they'd stopped to smell the roses, not that they'd worked harder.
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I don't agree with this Mal, I've seen at least 5 companies in the past month alone hiring FX Artists. It's possible to specialize in doing effects alone and find a job.
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Mal: Plus, youth and passion doesn't compete with time served by crotchety old fuckers when it comes to getting paid!
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Keep telling yourself that, over and over. 8-)
Experience doesn't mean as much as being able to get the job done. I have worked with a couple of 7 year veterans who were slow, outdated, didn't know how to pick up new tools, and hadn't used their time wisely to improve. Just "hanging around" doesn't ensure your usefullness. It's important to make the most of your time. I would rather work with someone relatively new to the industry who knows how to get stuff done and is trained in the latest workflows software and techniques, than a crotchety old guy who thinks that he doesn't need to keep up to speed because he is "wise and experienced".
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And on the other hand, I've worked with guys who had 6-10 years of experience up on the latest techniques/software versus the young hungry kid fresh out of the mod community who thought they already knew everything cause they worked on a mod for Unreal.
Most of the time I will have more confidence in experience but frankly, the experienced people get paid more because they've been around long enough to know what they're worth and have learned how to negotiate.
Young, talented people on a team can be a great asset and at the same time a headache to deal with. They have the drive and excitement that can add a lot of vitality into a team, but they rarely have the practical experience in avoiding common pitfalls and tend to have problems with accepting advice from the people who do. They see the seasoned people on a team going home at 6 every day and assume that they're burnt out, lazy, don't care, whatever when in fact they generally just know how to work smart, not hard. It's a young man's disease in the industry, and nearly everyone here who's been at this for a while can relate stories of when they went through it. I know I can.
Amazingly, the young energetic cocky guys who are hired in end up becoming the seasoned vet after a few years and then look on the new guys and think "Jesus...was I really like THAT?" That or they blame the problems on the company and jump from studio to studio, project to project, and eventually quit the industry.
i am pretty much a noob in the industry.. only about 6 monthes in.. but i was reading an article a few monthes ago in game developer about how studio's were hiring less people with experience becuase they are just too expensive.. it seems to be a commonplace attitude in companies i know people at and the one i work for.. that powers in numbers.. i dont know if its true nor do complain becuase its how i got my job, but it seems like they would rather have 20 or 30 noobs on the team with good portfolios than 10 complete badasses with a few noobs to catch the slack..
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This is one of the biggest warning signs to look out for. There are companies out there who will fill their whole team for a new project with young, eager people trying to break into games...work them 60+ hour work weeks for ridiculously low pay...and then axe the whole team when the project's done and repeat.
I have seen people who have used their time wisely too, I was trying to point out that age and time in the industry are not a 1:1 qualifier for a good employee.
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have worked with a couple of 7 year veterans.
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Do you realize how odd that sounds? A veteran after 7 years? A dog lives longer then that.
Eh, I figure my drawing skills are more important then shifting some vertices around. Zbrush is something I should play with though.
My Maya teacher tells me, if you can draw, you can model. Artists have better grasps of 3 dimensionality.....then guys who geek over software.....literally, he said that.
Besides, most of the stuff made 5 years ago was bad low poly models....for games anyway.
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I consider anyone who's worked through the full development cycle of at least 1 shipped title to be a veteran.
In response to your other comments, I hate elitist bullshit like this. I have the utmost respect for people from traditional art training, particularly people with solid drawing abilities, but being able to draw in no way automatically grants you a gifted ability to do virtual sculpture and certainly doesn't give you the right to look snobishly on people who've chosen that particular aspect of art over drawing. Granted, the majority of people I've met who model really well can in fact draw really well (which to me would suggest the opposite of your statement), but it's not a given. I've known people who could model well and not draw, and I've even known people who could paint skins really well and barely be able to draw a stick figure...something that still baffles me, but it happens. And I have in fact, worked with people who could draw very well and not model the simplest of geometry. A more accurate statement would be if you can percieve dimensional forms and visualize them well enough to recreate them, then you can model.
Frankly I'm insulted that your teacher, and you to a degree, take for granted what I do. We have to work within the limitations of technology and what you consider 'bad' low poly geometry was in fact a technical solution necessiatated by the ability of hardware. This would be akin to telling someone I want you to recreate the Mona Lisa using nothing but 12 thumbtacks and 8 rubber bands.
*edit* now that he posted it, I agree with Wrath ^^
Besides, most of the stuff made 5 years ago was bad low poly models....for games anyway.
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I just think that's pointing out the obvious. Graphics are getting better and games are becoming more elaborate.....I mean the orginal 1st release of Unreal Tournement looked really bad....scale, proportions, texturing and all.....despite the limitations of the hardware, alot of it was just graphic/artistic mistakes.
Do you think you could get a job showing a portfolio of stuff made from games that are over 5 years old?
It would probably be the texturing that would sell the models.....which would go back to the question of hewning in on your traditional skills?
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Besides, most of the stuff made 5 years ago was bad low poly models....for games anyway.
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I just think that's pointing out the obvious. Graphics are getting better and games are becoming more elaborate.....I mean the orginal 1st release of Unreal Tournement looked really bad....scale, proportions, texturing and all.....despite the limitations of the hardware, alot of it was just graphic/artistic mistakes.
Do you think you could get a job showing a portfolio of stuff made from games that are over 5 years old?
It would probably be the texturing that would sell the models.....which would go back to the question of hewning in on your traditional skills?
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I think it would depend on the quality of the work in question and what company you were applying to. The PS2 hasn't evolved in 5 years and the hand held systems are just recently moving into the 3D realm, so both of the technical requirements of those platforms demand the ability to deal with a very frugal budget of polygons.
More to the point though, I'd question any portfolio with 5 year old work but the ability to demonstrate a solid understanding of proportion, anatomy, design, and the other qualities that are sought after are in no way related to the number of polygons in a model. I personally have a much greater appreciation for a kick-ass 1500 polygon model versus a mediocre ZBrushed attempt. Good work is good work, you can't fool me by making it appear smoother.
It just hate the assumption being raised here about the younger guys fresh out of college. What are your opinions on the older "noobs"? I can't see us acting in the same manner you attribute to some of the younger/fresher entrants who work for peanuts willingly. Though even I would myself admit to biting that bullet as its better than the alternative.
If you think about it.. For those that left the industry. They pretty much would have to go back to a vocational skill as they have skills 90% of employers don't want. Oh the joys of being an artist. :P
As for 'older noobs', well you have to admit that you're probably in a reasonably small group of people there Oxy. Generally the older people that I work with have been around the bizz a long time. I wouldn't worry about it too much though. Just concentrate on getting your stuff looking good.
Twice I've had guys join the character team who were a few years older than me ( yes, that is possible Poop ) that I would consider 'noobs'. One was a ten year veteran of ILM and his work was amongst the worst I've ever seen, and the other I caught stealing textures from another co.s shipped game to put into ours! WTF! Both were eventually let go. Both of the other two artists on Everything Or Nothing were much younger than those guys, but the quality of their work was far superior to the aforementioned older artists that we had on the same team. The bottom line is, I don't give a monkeys how old people on my team are. I just care that they can do the work to a high standard.
Where I work there is a CG Artist grade system. Basically there are 5 levels which dictate salary and other things.
Your level is decided when you come in, based on several factors but predominantly experience.
It should work I suppose but I have some problems with it. What bugs me about it is that it doesn't really account for skill level / work quality as far as I can see. In the aforementioned case above that I mention for instance, the 36 yr old ILM guy was probably making $120k since he wangled his way in as a CG 5 ( management are a bit starry eyed about film people too so their salaries tend to reflect that ). Which is more than me, his lead, and way more than a 20 yr old artist on the team who's work was infinitely superior. The problem with the ILM guy, was that he couldn't paint to save his life. And had no clue about working under realtime constraints. Would have been nice If I'd been asked to check out his work before he joined the team. jeez.
But then again, you can't really pay people a salary based on their work quality. Who'd be the judge?! It's a tricky problem and Im not sure there is a solution. Salaries will always be unfair.
Anyhow
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And you run and run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
And racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death
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I think we might start seeing more people in thier 30's and 40's making a new start in games as folks in the film industry make the switch, and other people that might have always wanted to make art for living see games as a viable way to pay the bills.
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Noserider, 7 years is a veteran in this industry. Its a testament to how poorly its been run. It burns people out and drives them away into less stressful industries. IGDA did a survey recently where less than 3% of game devs had a coworker with more than 10 years of experience.
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Poop, also recognize that 10 years ago was 1995, which was just before Quake. Computer games is still a young industry, when you compare it to another medium like film or television, and it has all the aspects of a young medium. Like, it's misunderstood by the general public, and nobody has worked in it very long. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just pointing out.
/jzero
One was a ten year veteran of ILM ... eventually let go.
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Been there DaZ! We hired a guy from Pixar for a FMV animation job awhile back, his name was in the credits for Toy Story. The guy really wowed many of the artists with his connections and tales, but when it came down to the job at hand, he couldn't follow direction at all, couldn't animate simple camera moves, couldn't get the hang of a simple IK rig. He knew animation theory, but apparently not in practice.
I think it was mostly his ego getting in the way, being directed by a younger guy. I had to fire him, not a popular task, but necessary to keep the job rolling. If you don't pull your weight, then boom you better get the hell out of the way.
Anyhow, I've been an artist in games for about 13 yrs. You can definitely find old deadwood artists around, but that's the same as any industry. Like others mentioned, experienced artists can definitely work smarter, they tend to have a wider skillset under their belts. In general they've learned how to approach problem-solving from multiple directions, and tend to know the way companies and people work.
I worked long unpaid-overtime hours when I started, and I'm glad I did it. For the most part though, it was for learning's sake, experimenting with new tools and techniques, not for actual production.
So I think overall the younger artists will continue to do this, and it's a good thing. It's up to management to be conscious of it, realize it's temporary, and not penalize their experienced workers for having moved beyond that stage.
but being able to draw in no way automatically grants you a gifted ability to do virtual sculpture and certainly doesn't give you the right to look snobishly on people who've chosen that particular aspect of art over drawing.
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Bodyrott is the best character artist i know, and he doesn't draw at all. I whole-heartedly agree with you dude.
-R
It's just a job.
-R
Dont you think both sides are letting their mistrust of others and their unrecognition of their own egos keeping from a more concentric workplace? What about accepting the egos of others and yourself? I think whats being over emphasized is trying to draw a link to ego to ability. This is again subjective. So saying (in example) person A should not display an ego because they arent as good as person B in a particular area is a useless observation.
Maybe what is trying to be conveyed is that instead no one should be overly protective of their skills in a team environment? If the new hire can do better models than the vetran, then thy both should accept that. If the vetran can kick the new hire in optimization, then they both should accept that. Scott Ruggels post seemed to display this acceptance.
???
Fat: Great post. Unlike you though all my art work history is with gallery showings.
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EricChadwick sez:
So I think overall the younger artists will continue to do this, and it's a good thing.
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Im not sure how it good or bad. I guess Im saying I don't see how your post points one way or the other concretely. You give one example of a older artists you had a problem with, and go to discuss the overtime you put in, and link that to younger artist and being a good thing. It just doesn't seem to make a reasonable conclusion.