I'll know it when I see it
polycounter lvl 19
Ever heard that line? "I don't know what I want, but I'll know it when I see it." Its the attitude that most non artists take when paying an artist to do something for them. Happens in Graphic Design and freelance alot. The person has no artistic abilities whatsoever, but rather than trust this highly paid and trained artist to do something fresh and creative, they insist on constantly revising what the artists has made. They do not really know what they are after, but they certainly know what they don't want (which normally happens to be whatever you come up with).
How do you deal with this type of sitation? (if you have ever been in it)
How do you deal with this type of sitation? (if you have ever been in it)
Replies
Once I've finished with that I batter them about the head with the stick until they are a pulpy mess of flesh twitching and quivering on the ground.
Usually, thats enough to convince them of the error of their ways and make me a happy bunny again.
Whatever works you know?
Half the time they make you go through a bunch of iterations and eventually end up right back at what you wanted to do in the first place, except now they think it was their idea.
And the other half of the time, you just smile and say their idea is great and that you'll get right on it. Then you don't touch a thing, resubmit it and suddenly it's perfect.
What Ror said. It's the only way forward.
tpe
That sounds like trying to decide what to do at the weekend with your girlfriend, and is reminiscent of shoe shopping.
had a talk about that a few days ago with a friend...
..."the client"...
There's a great section on this issue, along with sample contracts that help solve it, in the GAG book. Every freelance artist should have this book. The contract can be as simple as you like, no need for scary legalese, and in fact clients tend to appreciate that.
A simple contract makes you look more professional, and helps protect your ass. But in the end, it always helps to go a step farther with the art than what's stated in the contract, giving the client a sense that you're going that extra mile for them. But in actuality, if you're slick you can allocate that extra time in advance, then merely omit it from the contract, knowing that you can go beyond if you like the work (and the client).
First of all, I always like to have a conversation with a new client, to find out how much they know, and don't know. That is key, you get all kinds coming at you in the market I'm in, and when communication is the primary factor, you have to make sure you both speak some of the same words. I know that if I have to spend more than 15 minutes talking to a guy about what he wants, then I need to be careful.
Sometimes it takes a while to interrogate a client, to the point where you decide that THEY don't know what they want. And then comes the moment where you can sometimes rescue yourself -- if they can understand that it's THEIR job to figure out what they want you to do, then they usually go away. And then they come back with some half-baked impossible idea, but at least you got through at some level.
If I'm in a staff position, my strategy usually includes throwing as many concepts as I can at the client, and hoping one will stick. In a contract situation, your position is better, because you have the right to charge for anything more than three concepts, and that's certainly a motivation.
Now, it's one thing to expect an artist to do all the creative work, but quite another for the client to then play designer with YOUR concepts and mess them all up. IHATETHAT!! Clients who try to 'play designer' on me don't get a friendly reception, but I am at my most diplomatic when I tell them to take their lousy concept-screwing ideas and shove them. You just have to make it clear why it won't work, but more often than not, you end up with something you can't put in your portfolio. I hate that, too.
/jzero
Maxwell's silver hammer came down upon his head......
I'll know it when I see it
[/ QUOTE ]
If they have no idea what they want, why not charge them hourly and per concept and suck them dry of money till they settle for an concept?
Just look at the doe doe as a kaching machine.
/jzero
In a stadff position, make sure you aren't the one providing the concept art.
Scott
I've had multiple threads labouriously detailing my plight, so I'll not subject yall to that again.
I feel...nay...I live your pain. Daily.
It was akin to saying "I want my art to look more Doom 3 than Half Life 2". I'm sure it sounds alot easier than it is in practice but they would nail the initial concept down as exactly as possible and then make the client sign off on it.
The sign off was a very important part of their creation process and was done at the end of every stage during development. If a client wanted a change to something after sign off it would cost more. So if they decided to go back and change the concept that stage would start all over again and they would pay for that stage again. There was still alot of hand holding but it seemed like they had found a decent process for art creation while simultaneously dealing with the typical client friction that goes with it.
They would also build in a deadline buffer and have it stated in the contract that they would receive an additional percentage (I think 10-15%) if they completed early.
This entire process hinged on contracts and I'm not sure how well it would translate into 3D art creation but I'd like to hear what others think about it.
I was lucky to find a paying gig where I made 200 power point backgrounds for a guy to use. I heard those words when I asked him to give me specifics;
"Just go with what you feel is right". Which was nice to hear, because he trusted me to some extent to deliver what he wanted.
Knowing this kind of vagueness could really bite me in the ass, I replied;
"Oh ok, so rabid hell dogs chewing the flesh of newborns is good for you?".
After the shocked look started to fade I laughed and asked him again;
"so what do you want to see, specifics are good because I don't have time for tweaks".
He rattled off a few things he thought where specific and I went about the next 2 weeks making backgrounds out of nothing. Just for kicks I made a speed painting of a doll getting mauled by dogs. I showed him that first when we met again, we both laughed, but his laugh was a nervous "I shouldn't have paid up front for this crap" kind of laugh. In the end he really liked the "real stuff" I did.
But serriously you have to drive the point home, give me specifics up front, or you get what you get. You have no one to blame but yourself. If you don't know what you want, get back to me when you do.
It comes down to how well you know the person and how comfortable you are telling them straight what you need to make things happen. Just try and let them know they are most likely to get what they want if they tell you what it is. One thing we "artsy types" need to remember is that most poeple have a very unfocused mental eye. They have to sit 2 inches from a TV to get any kind of picture burned into thier head. So they really don't know what they want. But we have to force them to give us guidelines, for us and them.
When I was doing graphic design, I sometimes liked it when people let me color outside the lines. Mostly because I always had strict lines to color inside of 95% of the time. I was all about getting the artistic freedom to "express myself". Now that I have it I want the big thick black hairy lines back, when dealing with certain types of people.
Now of course all that being said, if your stuck with one of these last min tweakers and you didn't see it coming, then your stuck. Make the tweaks they ask, and when it starts to hit your bottom line cut em off. Tell them your out of time, you have other engagements, and that it was great working with them and you hope you get the chance to work with them again. IF you get the chance drop the hint that getting specifics up front would greatly improve the end product, do so. But don't be a pushy A-Hole about it...
Just pick your work carefully. If they dont have a certain level of documentation completed, that you have gauged with your own creative willingness. Just don't do it.
I need texture artists now, but I wont even begin to seek artists untill I finish some models and showable material swatches and such. And once again.. I'm babbling.
In oone place I worked - the two owners of the company were not artists, or programmers, or even very computer literate actually...which made for a strange marriage of company and managers to say the least. One guy was good though and kept out of the art/ code side of things - the other however - had no art training, wasn't an artist by any means...but somehow knew more about art than the whole art team put together (in his one head only!)...and was very outspoken and bolshy about his opinions.
During down time between projects I was given the task of concepting some new charactersfora a game proprosal to be sent out. All the characters were stylised and very cartoony - but based on real life "people" - e.g policeman, gardner, cook etc etc. Now - having a very short deadline I was having to pump out alot of these in a short space of time and was getting understandably stressed as the more opiniated of them kept handing me the concepts back saying " a fireman in America doesnt wear a uniform like that" (he was American by the way) or "a cook in America wouldnt look like that"...and request changes.
Now - all my uniforms for the characters were taken straight from reference so this was even MORE annoying as I knew they were right. After I had reworked a few of these concepts had been reworked and approved by him the lead artist gave me some advice - to not change anything and just resubmit the designs anyway...and whatdyaknow - the second time round - all the designs passed.
It seems that this guy knew less about art and more about the sound of his own vioce. Needless to say I left not long after this!