Race and Game Characters
polycounter lvl 18
Just wondering. How many main/leading game characters are anything but Caucasian (or Asian for the Japanese/Korean market)?
I guess in the MMPOG you can choose (right??). But what about mainstream single player portion games?
I thoughy HL2 was at least a half a step forward since the main squeeze was half African American. She wasn't the main character, but it still addresses a underlying stigmatism of interracial relationships. Well, actually come to think of it R13 had a few hints of that as well with that Coronel woman that helps him out? But that series came out of France.
What games out there type someone other than these two races (yes race doesn't exist scientifically, but socially it does) as the lead/playing character? That originate as a game versus coming from some other media (ie Blade won't count).
I guess in the MMPOG you can choose (right??). But what about mainstream single player portion games?
I thoughy HL2 was at least a half a step forward since the main squeeze was half African American. She wasn't the main character, but it still addresses a underlying stigmatism of interracial relationships. Well, actually come to think of it R13 had a few hints of that as well with that Coronel woman that helps him out? But that series came out of France.
What games out there type someone other than these two races (yes race doesn't exist scientifically, but socially it does) as the lead/playing character? That originate as a game versus coming from some other media (ie Blade won't count).
Replies
GTA: SA main character is black.
UT games, variety of races to choose from.
SIN: John Blade is mixed.
Prince of Persia: Arabic main character.
Sanity: Black main character
Unreal II: Main character is mixed.
And those are just games I own.
UT Games: are multiplayer
Ninja Gaiden: Originally a Japanese title.
Jedi Knights/Neverwinter/Diablo... I group towards more of not a specific main character. I mean characters that are "given" to you the player to play. Not where you make a character and are given a predetermined route/quest.
Otherwise good finds.
"GTA: SA main character is black.
SIN: John Blade is mixed.
Prince of Persia: Arabic main character.
Sanity: Black main character
Unreal II: Main character is mixed."
Still rather a short list? Any others? Hispanic? Is there a main character in the Resident Evil series thats Hispanic? Or am I confused with the crappy movies?
On GTA:SA Im wondering, do the developers play with the fact that you are African American? Like how establishments treat you? (Haven't played it).
I agree that many should try something other than "generic white male" for main characters...besides "generic large breasted thin white female". My guess is the game industry, and gamers, are mostly "generic white males". The minority groups spend more money on car sterios than games.
The minority groups spend more money on car sterios than games.
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I can't believe you just said that. How sadly terribly ignorant.
Anyhow, culture wasn't my point. Thats your own stigmatism coming into play.
NFS:U Only played bits and pieces, but thats not character specific game.
Paparappa? Thats a cartoon dog.
Def Jam Fight? Don't know. Isnt that a generic fighting game multiplayer game where you choose whom you want to fight as? (Ie not in my guidelines). A game where you are a specific character.
I agree totally about games needing to start thinking about mixing the race of the main charcters up abit more.
But on the other hand there is small minority who just wouldn't play GTA:SA becuase the character you play happens to be black,the sad thing is generally on day to day basis these people arn't necserilly rascist,its just sociaty has made people think like that and I have first hand exsperience of this down the pub just afew weeks ago... I won't repeat what the guy said but it basically was about that lead charcter in GTA:SA and how he's not playing the agme till the PC version comes out and he can get a white skin for him.
I think devlopers my se eit as away to keep people happy and minorities o nan even keel if that makes sense.
John
i think the main reason is as stated, it's a 'generic white male'.
if you make someone black, then people assume there is a reason for it. and then people start looking to see if they are portrayed 'correctly'(and quite a few are stereotyped) and then bitch and moan if they arent.
no one cares if the white characters are good/evil, ugly/pretty, or anything. they are just GenericMale01. you can do anything to them and not offend any one, at least racially.
If the character is a minority people are going to scrutinize the situations you place them in and then come up with all kinds of ways that the developer has stereotyped that minority. I've already heard about the haitians making a big fuss about how they are portrayed in GTA even though haitian gangs were prevelent during the time period and the geographic location. It's an accurate representation but in these times of policital correctness and over sensativity the only way developers are safe is if they dont portray critical minority characters in compromising situations, hence white and asian main characters.
Now I think it's kind of rediculous you dont credit the "build your own character" games. I think every game should offer this option as a way to enhance immersion but you seem to see it as a less then worthy solution to a problem you see.
You can have a elve or alien sometimes as a option in those same games I disregard. RPG's aren't the best example. Again, a character driven story is what I wanted examples of. In a RPG when you choose your character, you have to make the story somewhat generic at some points. Think about it from the developers viewpoint for trying to make every single choice you make in the character effect how the world acts to you. They do it to some degree, but again EVERY choice? Like I say a certain amount a generic guidelines come into play. Even Deus EX 1/2 suffered from this because no matter what you choose, you still would encounter the same guidelines. In short, I meant games where you HAVE to play a certain person throughout.
Im also not aware of a rpg or mmpog that happens in the "modern" world where race would play a part. Maybe Matrix online kinda/sorta.
Resident Evil 3 is another example to add -thanks.
"Does it really matter what race a main character is?"
Doesn't it depend on what the game is first? As it is I was asking for examples.
Men of Valor, you are Black. This was a selling point for their title. Every interview was like, "In our game, you are African American."
Mercenaries, you have 3 choices, one of which is a Black/Korean male.
Later
Mr. Rogers, since it was a selling point. Did they take advantage of that? I mean to show effects of being african american.
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Social setbacks(and bonuses depending on which NPC the player interacts with).
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But white people's culture aren't represented in mainstream games either. Just cuz their face is white or asian that doesn't mean they expiereince anything that their race (in this culture or most others) represent. I don't know too many people who live like the main charaters in our games.
I haven't played a game where I was a safeway shelf-stocker/banker/insurance salesmen or entrepeur and expierenced their perspective in their given society in a story driven game before.
I wouldn't consider GTA all that realistic 'and' it glorifies a lifestyle that ins't very typical at all.
I know a developer that will release a game of this type within the next 2-3 years tho.
-R
yes race doesn't exist scientifically, but socially it does
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Actually it does exist scientifically, because it was taboo to talk about races some time ago does not erase the fact.
Now how many non caucasians are there in the USA? Maybe 25% max, its even lower in Europe and in Asia there are mostly asians. From the marketing standpoint you must sell to the largest possible consumer group. Thats why you get mostly caucasian chars.
Persoanlly i dont care what race the lead character is as long as (s)he fits the role.
25% of a country (and growing) is a large amount of people Toomas.
Pak, "But white people's culture aren't represented in mainstream games either."
When was a game advertised as having a caucasian white character? Thats why I was interested in seeing why Men of Valor does. Also, you are mistakiing race for job types. In other words, stereotyping.
You have to look at the developers.
Typically, pc games are developed by white males, so they tend to create characters with whom they would more easily identify with. Which is either a busty female or "strong" white male. Nothing is wrong using the archtype characters, they are used because it IS the easiest way to draw a player in. Its more of a sure thing. Of course, you could get the developer who says, lets mix it up a bit and they seem to throw in a random ethnicity to the game character without really ever developing character beyond the facade.
I mean, look at Blade. He's black, but does his skin color or cultural upbringing really make a difference? You could put a white guy in his place and keep the same character.
Now the question you need to ask is, if you had an dev team where the majority of workers were black, would they create a black character, with whom they would more easily identify with or would they look at the sales statistics/demographics they are appealing to...and make a white one?
Darci, the main character in Urban Chaos, is a black woman.
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Yeh, then Will Smiths wife claims she's the first black female main character in a game, in 'Enter The Matrix'. I don't know about you, but I see this alot. Not only is she wrong in her statement, but she brings race up into a topic (the game and her role) which has no real relevance.
"OMG Neo was white... they saying black people aren't good enough to be 'the one'"...
People just look too much into these damn things..
As Snemmy said, mostly if you put an ethnic character in a game some people are going to question his/her portrayal of that ethnicity and moan if it doesn't conform to their ideals of what that ethnicity should represent.
A prime example would be the haitians that got uptight over one of the GTA games (Vice City?) because you had to kill a bunch of Haitians in the game. Similarly, if you had to kill blacks, asians, hispanics, etc there would be a similar uproar. If you had to kill white people instead, that's perfectly acceptable.
Although Riddick is an "alien", the actor who portrays him is African-American/Italian-American. Yeah, it's from a movie. But the guy also has his own game studio.
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Vin Diesle has a game studio?
Quake games do not count as you are not forced to play them (ie Multiplayer). I said this originally.
Wondering, those that are getting adament about its doesn't matter. WHICH BTW is your own addition to this conversation. I just wanted to see some minority examples and how they played out. Anything additional is your luggage (IE Thnom). By trying to read beyind my inquiry you are in reality showing your own faults.
Anyhow, what do you consider your ethnic background? I know Pak is Middle East decent (err right Pak?). How about you others though?
On the topic, I have never seen a person of non caucasian ethnic complain about not beeing able to play a character of "his kind" nor the otherway around (I have a male friend who refuses to play 'No one lives forever' though, because the main character is female
So I guess it is a topic of people tring to be overly politicly correct, which usually results in quite the opposite (e.g. emphasising the imaginary differences, or in the worst case scenario into racial discrimination the other way around)
#1: you didnt really clearly define the boundries of this discussion. You didnt say "Im a black guy, and am wondering why there arent more black main characters in games, why is that..." (Im not saying any of that is factual, just an example). People on PC are usually able & willing to engage in intellectual discussions on a myriad of topics, but need to have the guidlines and even the topic clearly defined.
#2: Video game characters are archetypes. They are not just characters, but characatures. Stereotypes. You rarely have the varied emotional/cultural depth in a video game character that you may find in a movie character.
Meh, I had all this stuff to say, and I've forgotten it, or lost interest.
Caucazoid
Negroid
Mongoloid
I learned this in biology. There is some debate whteher it's a scientific classification. Princton University considers race scientific, but whomeever runs dictionary.com does not.
But here are some weblinks:
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=negroid
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=caucasoid
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=mongoloid
On the topic, I have never seen a person of non caucasian ethnic complain about not beeing able to play a character of "his kind" nor the otherway around
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I have. In fact Travis Smiley mentioned it in his show the other day. So if it came up in a conversation, I would like to have some examples that don't portray stereotypes, and yet show the real world effects of being of different ethnicity. Thus far this latter part hasnt been mentioned in any game.
All I keep getting are excuses and the run around instead.
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You rarely have the varied emotional/cultural depth in a video game character that you may find in a movie character.
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You haven't played HL2 yet have you?
Pak, look closely at your link, That is just a dictionary. There is no claim of racial scientific classification.
I would like to have some examples that don't portray stereotypes, and yet show the real world effects of being of different ethnicity. Thus far this latter part hasnt been mentioned in any game.
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So you're basically looking for any games that include racism against minorities as a game mechanic? Yeah, that'd be a big selling point. Besides, people that look for racism will see it everywhere, no matter what. Why are you asking, anyway?
Frank the Avenger
Frank the Avenger
Your seeing demons where non-exist Frank. Also, it would be simple enough for a dev to CALL their local NAACP to get their input.
And honestly, reverse racism is OT and frankly on such a low scale shallow argument that to use such an excuse is a cope out from addressing the issue. I dont deal with it on a day to day basis.. do you Frank?
To be honest because I have a idea of a game where you play a slave in the south before the civil war who tries to get into the underground railway to the north. Except to say "game" would be disrespectful of such a interactive experience.
Do you play as Darci in Urban Chaos? Or is she more a supporting character along the lines of Alexis?
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You play as Darci only and the plot (as far as you can call it) evolves around her character.
That'll just be Red Faction then, but in the past, with a black main character...
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Heh. No, With whips, chains, rape, murder, and real world consequences from killing people. It would be more along the lines of a FPA.
There was a third person action game that came back a while ago starring a spanish woman. No idea what it was. I don't think it found a publisher over here.
I suppose you could count Turok on your list too.
Racism or bigotry? There is a difference.
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The only difference is you can be a bigot about something besides race.
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And we see it all the time in RPG if you choose between male and female in how come of the characters "hit" on you. Have people complained? yes. Do these titles still sell? yes.
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Being hit on is racism? Or is it bigotry? What if a male main character is hit on in-game, is that bad? What if said male character is hit on by another male?
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Your seeing demons where non-exist Frank.
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Really? What am I seeing, o all-knowing one?
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Also, it would be simple enough for a dev to CALL their local NAACP to get their input.
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Why would they? Does the NAACP have the only useful information about...well, whatever the hell you're talking about, since you're not making it very clear?
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And honestly, reverse racism is OT and frankly on such a low scale shallow argument that to use such an excuse is a cope out from addressing the issue. I dont deal with it on a day to day basis.. do you Frank?
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There's no such thing as 'reverse' racism. There's only racism. Although thanks for bringing it up, it makes your position much more clear: 'Whitey bad!' As to whether or not I deal with racism every day, or your assumption that I don't, you have no idea what ethnicity I am. But your racism is pretty clear, at least.
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To be honest because I have a idea of a game where you play a slave in the south before the civil war who tries to get into the underground railway to the north. Except to say "game" would be disrespectful of such a interactive experience.
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Ah, the cry of 'high art.' Yes, calling it a 'game' is insulting, it's so much better than the plebian offerings of the unenlightened. Go you.
The sad thing is, oxy, is that the idea itself is good. I think it's a fantastic idea, honestly, and I'd like to see it done. It would be very educational, I think. Your apparent reasons for wanting to do it, however...well.
Frank the Avenger
I'm still trying to work out if oXYnary wants to know if racial issues will make the game sell better, or if it's a bad thing to do, or what? Or is it just other people's opinions he's looking to disagree with?
I think your question's been answered, there are a few games where the ethnicity of the key character has been non-Anglo. SiN is an excellent example, I think, where there's nothing in the story to require John Blade to be any specific ethnicity, but he's what I think of as the 'New American Mutt', which is definitely in keeping with the game's near-future setting.
That's an ethnic type which I expect to see more of in the media very soon. I live in an area bustling with immigrant families from just about everywhere, and sooner or later there are going to be some seriously ethnically mixed families coming out of America -- and that's so very good. The thing is, it's really hard to hang an ethnic stereotype on someone whose background is so swirled that racists would have to start doing arithmetic to even come up with names to call them. Vin Diesel is a prime example of this, and so is The Rock, of course. I think it's great that those guys are as big celebrities as they are, and I think it's due in part to their ability to cross ethnic lines, to not be perceived as just 'one type of person'.
So I foresee a solution to the issue of how to make a generalized game character more accessible to players: make them ethnically 'imprecise'. You can either see a character like that as representing you in some way, or being so outside your opinions that he is neutral.
/jzero
The only difference is you can be a bigot about something besides race.
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Well looking in the dictionary.. We are both right and wrong depending on the definition in use. The main distinction for me is bigot is referenced to prejudice. Racist however has two definitions of note:
Racist
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
Im going by one, In that a racist admits they are so. A bigot does not have to understand that they are being prejudice. I think you are going by two to draw your corelation?
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Why would they? Does the NAACP have the only useful information about...well, whatever the hell you're talking about, since you're not making it very clear?
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The demon bit is this
(mop)"except it would not be racism against minorities, but racism in general. It works in every direction. "
which you replied to this
"as been asking about non-white minority characters only."
Which in light of your now further response proves to me your underlying tackling of this thread. You think I am somehow demonizing or ignoring whites because they don't count. "Whitey bad".
They don't count in this thread as it was about minorities and other groups. Here is the keypoint: A minority is much more likely to encounter prejudice on a day to day basis than a white cacausion. At least here in the US.
The NAACP comment was more in reference.. well actually I apologize that was meant for another person. But the idea that people would get pissed at such a game. They could call the NAACP to get their POV. Even if they choose to ignore that POV.
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There's no such thing as 'reverse' racism. There's only racism. Although thanks for bringing it up, it makes your position much more clear: 'Whitey bad!' As to whether or not I deal with racism every day, or your assumption that I don't, you have no idea what ethnicity I am. But your racism is pretty clear, at least.
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Like I said, demons where non-exist.. keep fishing. You might find something eventually.
Oh Im sure a upper class cacausion deep in the projects may exactly get that reaction (hate white man). Just as much a african american might get it from a small town in S. Carolina.
I have yet to see a game in either setting. However we have seen games in urban areas (but not inner city). I just wanted to know if those games that do such at least show that prejudice happens IF the character is a minority.
As I originally stated. If I come into an argument. I want to have examples to show. Thus far. Do we have minority characters? Yes. Do we have minority characters where the story reflects the idea of being a minority (which we both know would arise as a response)? So far. No. But whats frustrating is that its No for even games set in the modern world.
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Ah, the cry of 'high art.' Yes, calling it a 'game' is insulting, it's so much better than the plebian offerings of the unenlightened. Go you.
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Yes, I am a fine artist as well BTW, so I do take offensive at your stereptyping of what and who we create work for. The truth is I am trying to get in the industry to further my focus in interactive media. As for your "plebian" (ie lowbrow) comment. Thats again your own stereotyping coming into play. I for one want to make art accesable to all. Maybe it just gets them at different levels. Nothing wrong with that.
As it is this could not be a artwork as the amount of money and people involved. That and its too inpersonal. This would be more like a hollywood production along the lines of Roots or Schindler's List. Right now though I think we can both agree finding a publisher who looks beyond the generic and limiting their focus to "game where it must be fun and sell lots and lots" would be quite a task. (Don't get me wrong this would be "fun" in some ways, but I think would have to rely more on getting the player wanting to see what happens next versus making them smile).
Shellshock at least in original spirit was trying to address some issues close to this. To make people experience first hand the horrors of the Vietnam war. But in the end, the game because they were filtered so much came off as a cheap gimmick. See this review for what I mean.
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The sad thing is, oxy, is that the idea itself is good. I think it's a fantastic idea, honestly, and I'd like to see it done. It would be very educational, I think. Your apparent reasons for wanting to do it, however...well.
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What are my apparent reasons?
Oh I can give you a few.
- Thats it never been done before.
- That it would be fun, solem, and educational to make.
- That it would expand our artform.
- That it might help educate and help the player "walk in someone else's shoes"
What is wrong with such reasons? Or is there something else you are attributing to me?
Now, I hope we are finally on the same page Frank? If I still am misunderstanding your thoughts on my thoughts. Then I apologize, and please correct me. Thus as much as I hope you are now more inclined to see that you are attributing ideas to me outside the scope of what I am willing or attempting to use this thread for.
I guess in the end is.. When are we going to start making our medium more grey?
:::
And back to my original subject. Turok was a comic book first.
It is FINE to kill black/white people in war games, but not okay to kill Asian people in a temple (ala hitman). Omaha beach is fine.
It's that kind of shit that makes me hate the groups who call it racism. If I were to complain about every war game, because I felt it was racist, I'd be laughed at. Yet the group in question managed to get the game off shelves?
I think the world is too much about political correctness and that bollocks.